madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[noee]

@bran:
NGU chroma scaling is *not* cheap on Polaris (at least on a 560), so if you're using that, maybe drop it down to Med/Low. NGU in general, is heavy on Polaris, so for luma scaling, you might drop it back from High=>Med if you're using that.

[njfoses]

I really enjoy the motion interpolation from my Samsung TV. They manage to add better motion without giving soap opera effect (ok there is some judder -not even artifacts- sometimes). I prefer to use 4:2:2 + 24Hz + motion interpolation instead of 4:4:4 + 60Hz + madVR's smooth motion. ;)

On my Sony 940E i greatly prefer to have control over motion interpolation so i have to sacrifice 4:4:4 as well. Being that none of the video content i watch is encoded in 4:4:4 this is a tradeoff worth taking imho.

[njfoses]

Looks like a new Nvidia driver has been released.

[Manni]

Looks like a new Nvidia driver has been released.

I gave it a quick try and not to restart the discussion but this driver is still incompatible with Asio4all after a clean install. Neither jRiver nor REW can select the HDMI output in the control panel. I'll try flexasio when I have more time.

If anyone is able to use Asio4all with this (or 390.77) driver on Window 10 Pro x64 1709 latest build (16299.248) please let me know by PM so as not to clutter the thread with OT posts. Thanks!

[khanmein]

@bran exchanged my GTX1070 for a RX580 :confused:

GTX 1070 > RX 580

[ryrynz]

Yeah and for a reason that probably amounts to near zero visible improvement to boot. I had a laugh.

[huhn]

On my Sony 940E i greatly prefer to have control over motion interpolation so i have to sacrifice 4:4:4 as well. Being that none of the video content i watch is encoded in 4:4:4 this is a tradeoff worth taking imho.

sony TVs are usually able to motion interpolate and keeping 4:4:4...

[bran]

@bran exchanged my GTX1070 for a RX580 :confused:

GTX 1070 > RX 580

Yes, I'm fully aware of that. But as I said, nvidia outputs only 8 or 12bit. 12bit yields banding on my Samsung JS9505.

NGU chroma scaling is *not* cheap on Polaris (at least on a 560), so if you're using that, maybe drop it down to Med/Low. NGU in general, is heavy on Polaris, so for luma scaling, you might drop it back from High=>Med if you're using that.

Yeah, I'm thinking about that. More or less only viewing 1080 and 4k material on 4k TV, so maybe Super-XBR is good enough to use as well on these ~10Mbps+ 1080p rips and Blurays?

So much has happened with madVR, and I know many of the options are "use what you prefer", but I'm having a hard time finding what is the best performance/PQ ratio on 1080p->4k upscaling.

As it is now im using NGU Sharp on all options, no Super Res, Random Error D, Enhance detail 1, low debanding, use colored noise.

This is making the RX580 Strix 3-fan edition go jetplane after a few mins :P

[ryrynz]

So why didn't you just stick with the superior card and output 8 bit? Seems like a silly idea to me to jump cards to get what probably amounts to an insignificant change in PQ.
Anything you'd do with scaling with the superior card would have a far bigger impact on the image.

[bran]

So why didn't you just stick with the superior card and output 8 bit? Seems like a silly idea to me to jump cards to get what probably amounts to an insignificant change in PQ.
Because I want HDR and BT2020 without banding?

Anything you'd do with scaling with the superior card would have a far bigger impact on the image.

Actually, I'm having a hard time noticing major difference upscaling high-bitrate 1080p material to 4k with super-xbr vs NGU.

[huhn]

and who said you can't do that with 8 bit?

[bran]

and who said you can't do that with 8 bit?

An assumption of mine. I am under the impression that I will not get the same HDR/UHD quality using/outputting 8bit since it would need to downsample/dither. Is it wrong?

The Rec 2020 color space is a range of color. It was defined in 2012 as a standard for bit depth of 10 or 12 bits for 4k and 8k TVs.

[mytbyte]

@bran: I get cca 15 ms rendering time with NGU sharp set to medium medium on both chroma and image upscaling and other settings as you put them, for 1080p 24fps video...NGU high is in 24 ms range, very high is @ 70+ ms)...decoder is LAV D3D11 Native...I don't have it connected to 4K display, but I use 200% zoom...I find Xbr good quality and good enough for my eyes...GPU is @40% overall, VRAM is 1.4 GB

P.S. 10 bit dithered to 8 bit (especially on 4K matrix) looks OK, i.e. on par with a full 10 bit path

[Asmodian]

10-bit is import for the source but madVR's dithering is quite good. It is very hard to tell if you are outputting 8-bit or 10-bit, from madVR or the GPU. It usually requires test patterns of some kind to even notice the change when switching back and forth.

Just exchanged my GTX1070 for a RX580 (because nvidia only supported 8 or 12bit output, and 12bit yields banding on my TV).

12-bit is exactly the same as 10-bit if you output 10-bit with madVR, the last two bits are simply 0s. I suppose a TV could process 12-bit badly and 10-bit well but it would be strange. Does 10-bit with the 580 not have the same banding issues the 1070 at 12-bit did? Usually if the 10-bit processing is good then 12-bit looks fine too.

Is there any specific changes I would be advised to do in madVR and/or LAV Filters when switching from nvidia to AMD? Using DX11 in LAV Filters right now as it is, DX11 non-FSE in madVR.

Nothing needs changing for AMD. Those are good options and are the same ones I use with Nvidia.

[mytbyte]

@asmodian; if bran doesn't use FSE in MadVR, he doesn't get 10 or 12 bit output to HDMI anyway, no?

[ryrynz]

An assumption of mine.

You didn't even test 8 bit? That's makes it even funnier.

[mclingo]

An assumption of mine. I am under the impression that I will not get the same HDR/UHD quality using/outputting 8bit since it would need to downsample/dither. Is it wrong?

The Rec 2020 color space is a range of color. It was defined in 2012 as a standard for bit depth of 10 or 12 bits for 4k and 8k TVs.

Hi, this has been discussed a lot on here, i've come to the conclusion that there is no right and wrong answer as 10 vs 8bit is so close. I've chosen the 10 bit path for convenience though as it requires no templates, no switching or messing about. This is one of the best things about AMD cards for HTPC's, they are pretty much install and go as there are no issues with 3D setup and they have true 23,976 playback.

It is slightly worrying that the RX 580 struggles with NGU sharp, I was hoping it would tear through this.

I cant help feeling something has changed with either MADVR or the drivers though as I was able to use NGU sharp medium with my RX 550 up until about 2 months ago, now I can barely get NGU low for image upscale.

[huhn]

An assumption of mine. I am under the impression that I will not get the same HDR/UHD quality using/outputting 8bit since it would need to downsample/dither. Is it wrong?

The Rec 2020 color space is a range of color. It was defined in 2012 as a standard for bit depth of 10 or 12 bits for 4k and 8k TVs.
most TV are 8 bit and you need dithering anyway.
@asmodian; if bran doesn't use FSE in MadVR, he doesn't get 10 or 12 bit output to HDMI anyway, no?

windows 10 can do 10 bit in fullscreen windowed. and the output of the GPU doesn't care about this anyway.

amd for example is always send 10 bit if it is possible by default.

[mclingo]

All HDR TV's are 10 bit

[nevcairiel]

All HDR TV's are 10 bit

Don't believe everything you read in marketing brochures. :)

[mclingo]

indeed, however I follow reviews closely and there doesnt seem to be any evidence of any manufacturers making false claims, although I tend only to follow the mid / higher end reviews.

[bran]

most TV are 8 bit and you need dithering anyway.

I know the debate about 8bit + FRC, however no one AFAIK has proven that my model is not 10bit. It was the flagship at the time, JS9500 FALD from Samsung. There was quite the thread over att AVSForums regarding this.

LGs current gen OLED displays?

12-bit is exactly the same as 10-bit if you output 10-bit with madVR, the last two bits are simply 0s. I suppose a TV could process 12-bit badly and 10-bit well but it would be strange. Does 10-bit with the 580 not have the same banding issues the 1070 at 12-bit did? Usually if the 10-bit processing is good then 12-bit looks fine too.

YES I get less banding outputting 10bit from AMD than 12bit from nvidia. Especially noticeable in Planet Earth II, quite some heavy banding in the skies, that are a lot less with AMD (10b).

There are numerous topics about standalone UHD Bluray players outputting 12bit as well, resulting in banding. For example Panasonics UHD players, they received a 10bit update and all was well.

You didn't even test 8 bit? That's makes it even funnier.
Good that you keep yourself entertained.

[mclingo]

I know the debate about 8bit + FRC, however no one AFAIK has proven that my model is not 10bit. JS9500 FALD from Samsung. There was quite the thread over att AVSForums regarding this.

LGs current gen OLED displays?



YES I get less banding outputting 10bit from AMD than 12bit from nvidia.

There are numerous topics about standalone Bluray players outputting 12bit as well, resulting in banding. For example Panasonics UHD players, they received a 10bit update and all was well.

Out of interest, do you have your desktop set to 4:4:4 FULL RGB and trust you player to select the relevant colour space when required or do you use 4:2:0 for convenience as I do?

[huhn]

what are you talking about colorspaces?
yes i use full range RGB and you can do 12 bit with it so what's your point?

and why should someone use 4:2:0 and not at least 4:2:2 EVER?

[mclingo]

what are you talking about colorspaces?
yes i use full range RGB and you can do 12 bit with it so what's your point?

and why should someone use 4:2:0 and not at least 4:2:2 EVER?

it should have been clear that I was asking Bran, I am acutely aware of your opinions on this matter :)

[bran]

Out of interest, do you have your desktop set to 4:4:4 FULL RGB and trust you player to select the relevant colour space when required or do you use 4:2:0 for convenience as I do?

I'm always running 3840*2160 30Hz 4:4:4 Full RGB (12b nvidia and now 10b AMD) at desktop and let madVR switch refresh rate to 23.976Hz for movies/series.

madVR + MPC HC is the only player I use for video. Some youtube from time to time.

[mclingo]

I'm always running 3840*2160 30Hz 4:4:4 Full RGB (12b nvidia and now 10b AMD) at desktop and let madVR switch refresh rate to 23.976Hz for movies/series.

madVR + MPC HC is the only player I use for video. Some youtube from time to time.

ah right, i use mine as web and other stuff so i have to have my desktop @ 60 hz which is why I use 420. I dont use 422 as when my TV is set to deep colour the only option I have is 420. This is because i'm using the blueray preset on my TV, the PC input setting does allow this but disables the motion abilities of the TV which are essential to me on my LG OLED EF9500 (uk 2015 model)

[mrmojo666]

i found really good to put my desktop 4k@23 , setting 10bit output rgb 444, then i revert desktop settings to 50hz (I'm using madvr with mediaportal tv), so windows automaticalli brings rgb 444 8 bit only for 50/60 hz. Then i setup in mad vr two profiles: >24 fps use 8bit in device properties and <=24 fps use 10bit output in device properties. When madvr changes resolution windows put amd's 8 or 10 output accordingly with HDMi capabilities.

[mclingo]

yeah, there are lots of ways to do this, i've had it setup up a few different ways in the past but always had issue here and there, just got sick of faffing with it, my current setup is the most stable i've had it for a long time.

[brazen1]

I'm always running 3840*2160 30Hz 4:4:4 Full RGB (12b nvidia and now 10b AMD) at desktop and let madVR switch refresh rate to 23.976Hz for movies/series.

madVR + MPC HC is the only player I use for video. Some youtube from time to time.

Your desktop at 30Hz 10/12bit is now introducing lag in everything from your mouse to your GUI's which is slow, awkward, non compliant with Windows desktop and definitely not up to par.

[brazen1]

ah right, i use mine as web and other stuff so i have to have my desktop @ 60 hz which is why I use 420. I dont use 422 as when my TV is set to deep colour the only option I have is 420. This is because i'm using the blueray preset on my TV, the PC input setting does allow this but disables the motion abilities of the TV which are essential to me on my LG OLED EF9500 (uk 2015 model)

Imo, achieving 4:4:4 at 60Hz and 24Hz with deep color (HDR) ON is essential. Using 4:2:0 limits you to YCbCr Limited only.
I thought OLED was supposed to have great qualities superior to every other tech? Evidently not.

[brazen1]

yeah, there are lots of ways to do this, i've had it setup up a few different ways in the past but always had issue here and there, just got sick of faffing with it, my current setup is the most stable i've had it for a long time.

But you posted this 2 hours ago? Black screen? 0 in all queues in MADVR? That doesn't sound stable? https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&page=368
Maybe your front end choice using DSPlayer isn't such a good one anymore at least with your AMD video card and drivers?

[brazen1]

i found really good to put my desktop 4k@23 , setting 10bit output rgb 444, then i revert desktop settings to 50hz (I'm using madvr with mediaportal tv), so windows automaticalli brings rgb 444 8 bit only for 50/60 hz. Then i setup in mad vr two profiles: >24 fps use 8bit in device properties and <=24 fps use 10bit output in device properties. When madvr changes resolution windows put amd's 8 or 10 output accordingly with HDMi capabilities.

Nvidia drivers do this automatically without need for madVR to do it fwiw. I set my desktop at 60Hz instead of 50Hz.

[bran]

Your desktop at 30Hz 10/12bit is now introducing lag in everything from your mouse to your GUI's which is slow, awkward, non compliant with Windows desktop and definitely not up to par.
Thank you for the enlightenment of my erroneous ways so that I can henceforth follow the true path. My eyes aren't bleeding all that bad from a slight non-60Hz smooth animation when foobar or spotify changes song though.

This is a HTPC, not a computer used for daily desktop work. It's also used by my girlfriend. Hence, changing color space and bit-depth depending on what is played is not an option. 30Hz is a tradeoff I'm willing to make.

[mrmojo666]

Nvidia drivers do this automatically without need for madVR to do it fwiw. I set my desktop at 60Hz instead of 50Hz.

i don't think nvidia can change properties inside madvr for your tv ..... you need two profiles in madvr if you want madvr output 8 or 10 bit ;)

[brazen1]

Most of the discussion in here is about madVR and the enhancements it makes to video quality. This would include your misuse of basic calibration settings and so much how you listen to music. The fact is, when not using any windows computing desktop features at all and solely using it as an HTPC to browse your collection of VIDEOS, your GUI will be awkward at best. That isn't a trade off. That's a Band-Aid for improper settings and/or choice of hardware.

[brazen1]

i don't think nvidia can change properties inside madvr for your tv ..... you need two profiles in madvr if you want madvr output 8 or 10 bit ;)

No, what you think is simply wrong. The switching is automatic. In desktop mode = RGB 444 8bit 60Hz. In video mode auto switches to RGB 444 10bit 23/24 Hz and back again when finished with video playback. Just as it's listed in my sig.

[bran]

Most of the discussion in here is about madVR and the enhancements it makes to video quality. This would include your misuse of basic calibration settings and so much how you listen to music. The fact is, when not using any windows computing desktop features at all and solely using it as an HTPC to browse your collection of VIDEOS, your GUI will be awkward at best. That isn't a trade off. That's a Band-Aid for improper settings and/or choice of hardware.

No shit, if you go back a page or so you can see my initial questions for just madVR and AMD, since I came from nvidia. Misuse calibration settings..? Please elaborate. As to the rest, according to you maybe. But fine then, show me the hardware that can do RGB 4:4:4 2160p 10bit 60Hz.

[brazen1]

In my signature. I did elaborate. You want me to repeat myself?

[mrmojo666]

No, what you think is simply wrong. The switching is automatic. In desktop mode = RGB 444 8bit 60Hz. In video mode auto switches to RGB 444 10bit 23/24 Hz and back again when finished with video playback. Just as it's listed in my sig.

I think you are not undestanding my crappy english or I miss part of the chain...or some configuration in madvr are useless..

so tell me what do think about this setting ?

http://i.imgur.com/qoR6NV6.png

[brazen1]

Same I use and it's fine. Has little to do with the present discussion. What is your point?

[nevcairiel]

He apparently is not aware that his configuration would be faulty if he ever played a 30i or 60p video. Not very perfect of a setup, huh? (SCNR)

[mclingo]

But you posted this 2 hours ago? Black screen? 0 in all queues in MADVR? That doesn't sound stable? https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&page=368
Maybe your front end choice using DSPlayer isn't such a good one anymore at least with your AMD video card and drivers?

Are you stalking me?



I only have one small set of 720p rips which represents about 0.001 % of my entire collection, therefore i'm 99.999 % stable.

[neno]

In the latest 0.92.12 whenever I try to take a screenshot when paused, the potplayer crashed. And taking a screenshot when playing will get me an abnormal image(strange colors like a thermal image of the original one).

I haven't changed any settings and it can just take screenshots without any problem in older 0.92.X versions.

I use WIN10 with RX480.

Maybe the problem in changelog of 0.92.11 "screenshots in paused state sometimes crashed madVR" is still not fixed? Just a guess.

Anyone have some ideas or the same problem? Thanks.

Hi, madshi. About the problem, I have tried various settings in the screenshots tab.

I find that if I draw subtitiles(uncheck "don't draw" by default), then it will crash whatever other settings are(even if there aren't any subtitles). Can this be helpful to you? Anyone have the same situation?

Thanks.

------

And a question: Do I have to re-optimize the custom timing everytime when I update the graphic card driver? (RX480 in my situation)

------

PS: A tiny UI visual suggestion. The "color & gamma" tab in "devices" settings: the beginning position of the first letter "c" is some space backward compared to the other tabs' title.:)

[mrmojo666]

Same I use and it's fine. Has little to do with the present discussion. What is your point?

i don't know what is your problem, mate. you need to calm down a bit.

I was just sharing my config to help @bran to undestand that is possible to have (like you) 4k 50/60hz at 8 bit rgb 444 and 4k 24/23 at 10bit rgb444. so also i shred what config i done in madvr to keep the chain at all 8bit or all 10 bit. Then uou told me that i'm wrong to set up diffent profiles for madvr output.Because the driver switch the modes.... yes but not for madvr.
I think you are wrong if you use output always at 10 bit when your the rest of the chain is at 8 bit.

[brazen1]

No I'm not stalking you? I'm very active in that forum too. You know that. Don't make things up to spark an argument. Here, you make a lot of effort to inform us how well your system works and it's always because you use AMD. Yet it's always with caveats. I saw your complaint with DSPlayer before coming here this morning fwiw. Then you dis NVidia amap citing things like how hard 3D is. In reality, double clicking madshi 'enable nvidia 3d.reg' could not be easier. On the other hand, not to boast, I have a very good working system with no caveats. I attribute that to decent hardware and software choices including madVR.

[brazen1]

I didn't say you were wrong. I said "fwiw" NVidia does the switching automatically. Yes, I pumped NVidia a little since all I was reading today was about the benefits of AMD. No ill feelings. It's all good.

[mrmojo666]

I didn't say you were wrong. I said "fwiw" NVidia does the switching automatically. Yes, I pumped NVidia a little since all I was reading today was about the benefits of AMD. No ill feelings. It's all good.

I'm not understanding, so are you telling me that nvidia can change madvr setup "automatically" ?

[bran]

On the other hand, not to boast, I have a very good working system with no caveats. I attribute that to decent hardware and software choices including madVR.

I'd like the perfect system without caveats..

Looked at you sig now - JS8500. So you most certainly also have banding @ 4k 12bit.

It's not just the Samsung JS-series, people say they get it on LG OLED as well. It has been brought up at several forums, also when using standalone UHD player that is outputting 12 instead of 10bit.

http://bit.ly/2FbKmhM

This is significantly reduced when sending a 10bit signal instead. Hence my switch to AMD and the questions I then had which started this whole discussion.


Here's one of many examples, this one from the JS8500 thread over at AVSForum;
I too noticed The Revenant UHD disc causing color banding on my JS8500 when I first purchased my Oppo 203 using all auto which gave me 4:2:2 12-bit. To correct it I set the Oppo and from what I read from other JS8500 owners was to go with 4:4:4 10-bit, no more banding. For some reason 12-bit produces banding where 10-bit does not. Also the JS8500 is a 10-bit panel. It must not like that up conversion.

[mclingo]

No I'm not stalking you? I'm very active in that forum too. You know that. Don't make things up to spark an argument. Here, you make a lot of effort to inform us how well your system works and it's always because you use AMD. Yet it's always with caveats. I saw your complaint with DSPlayer before coming here this morning fwiw. Then you dis NVidia amap citing things like how hard 3D is. In reality, double clicking madshi 'enable nvidia 3d.reg' could not be easier. On the other hand, not to boast, I have a very good working system with no caveats. I attribute that to decent hardware and software choices including madVR.

enough now, you're just winding people up for no reason, all people are doing here is sharing their experiences, stop picking stuff apart like you're some sort of super-multi-forum-moderator.