madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[flossy_cake]

How do you figure power state? It doesn't change during playback that I saw.

I'm using GPU-Z and MSI Afterburner. If you just want a small portable tool, GPU-Z would be better. It's really just clockspeed that I look at to infer the power state. I'm using a physical wattmeter as well to verify.


So, it might be best to keymap some settings to your remote control for on-the-fly adjustments. For instance. You might tag a denoise setting into a video file name. It's going to use that setting universally. Then when you playback on a different screen, it might not look right.

Yeah, luckily my HTPC is for a single living room screen, but I use hotkeys anyway to preview different sharpening profiles for SD and DVD content.

A while ago I was complaining how HD remasters of old shows look too detailed and fake like "actors on a set". Since MadVR offers no option to downscale to SD, I was experimenting with Avisynth but couldn't get the right look - that 90's CRT smooth deflicker filter look, and I finally learned how to do it:


# downscale to 480p
LanczosResize(854, 480) # for 4:3 use LanczosResize(720, 540)

# apply deflicker filter - blends every pixel with the pixel above and below
strength = 0.5 # 0.0=off, 0.25=mid, 0.5=max
orig = last
shift_up = PointResize(orig.width, orig.height, 0.0, 1.0, orig.width, orig.height)
shift_down = PointResize(orig.width, orig.height, 0.0, -1.0, orig.width, orig.height)
blend_up = Merge(orig, shift_down, strength)
blend_down = Merge(orig, shift_up, strength)
Merge(blend_up, blend_down, 0.5)

# remember to tag the .avs file with [matrix=601/709][primaries=601/709] to match the original source file otherwise MadVR will see res is 480 and infer 601




Maybe it would better to turn it off, and increase it by using MADVR ?
I always liked sharpened picture. I hate blur pictures..
Just wanted some opinions xD

Well it's up to you what you prefer but...

These are my sharpening presets in case anyone finds them useful. I tuned them so that for example the mid setting would appear subjectively similar "strength" on SD content regardless of algorithm.

Lumasharpen low: 0.65
Lumasharpen mid: 1.30
Lumasharpen high: 1.95
Lumasharpen max: 2.60

Adaptivesharpen low: 0.2
Adaptivesharpen mid: 0.4
Adaptivesharpen high: 0.6
Adaptivesharpen max: 0.8

Customsharpen low (sharpen, crispen, thin, enhance): 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
Customsharpen mid (sharpen, crispen, thin, enhance): 1.0, 1.0, 1.0, 0.5
Customsharpen high (sharpen, crispen, thin, enhance): 1.5, 1.5, 1.0, 0.5
Customsharpen max (sharpen, crispen, thin, enhance): 2.0, 2.0, 1.0, 0.5

Antibloat filter: unticked for all
Antiringing filter: ticked for all

I subjectively prefer Customsharpen low and mid for SD content. The "thin edges" seems good at creating the illusion of higher resolution image, but beware it does change the appearance of fonts quite a bit which is why I cap it at 1.0. I'm also capping "enhance detail" at 0.5 as it enhances compression artefacts, but it is good at creating illusion of detail in textures like wood grain or stone texture in walls, so if you have a clean source you can run it higher.

As I said previously I generally don't feel the need to use sharpening for native HD sources so I'm not a sharpening whore or anything. I just subjectively feel SD on a big screen is problematic and needs something extra. A lot of the time the sharpening will be baked into the source by the company that did the mastering and I don't feel those particular shows or movies need anything extra.

[Schwartz]

These are my settings. They're fairly light and usable for medium and high quality sources. I have separate settings for good quality 720p+ stuff where I just increase the first four numbers to 1.8.

LumaSharpen is my favorite of the bunch because it's fairly forgiving on the picture.

If you go too heavy on these, you have to add anti-artifact measures which for me defeats the purpose of well-tuned image enhancement.

[ashlar42]

Some settings might be great on one display... but not another. So, those types of settings wouldn't be universal.


Bear in mind you can automate profiles according to display being used:

display name of the active display device

[Sunspark]

Ok, so I was playing around with gpu-z to monitor load and power usage and also memory timings and I have observed an interesting behaviour when the glitch is active.

To begin, I was running memory clock 1066 (weird!) according to gpu-z, (1600 in bios) in copy-back mode & overlay.

28% / 3.7w bicubic chroma upscale, bicubic image downscale (since I never downscale anyway, I changed it to dxva2 which made it 14/1.9)
17/2.5 fullscreen chroma-only w/o glitch
15/2.4 fullscreen chroma-only w/ glitch

This is the first oddity observed, that when the glitch is active it has lower gpu % and power usage despite the higher rendering time. This was consistent across multiple setting changes. I feel logically, if rendering time is higher, then gpu load/power should be higher in turn, but that wasn't the case.

I also experimented with stock timings of gpu-z memory clock of 933/1866 bios, and OC'ed gpu-z 1333/2000 bios. Didn't really change much.. just fractional differences here and there.

Currently in 933/1866 with bios settings on automatic for the memory sticks, the load/power is
15/2.2 fullscreen chroma-only w/o glitch
14/2.2 fullscreen chroma-only w/ glitch

The second oddity observed, and this happened with all memory timings including stock when the glitch is active.

Render queues would drop to 2-4/4 instead of being 3-4 and backbuffers would drop to 1-3/4 instead of being 2-3.

So this is interesting because it means the gpu queue wasn't being filled up immediately, even though playback wasn't affected. I'm thinking it must be a subtle bug somewhere in madvr or potentially the decoder, because while it triggers often, it doesn't trigger every time.

Update: Another observation- when the glitch happens the windows task manager GPU usage % goes to 100% while gpu-z % does not. So it's something.

[DVDIT]

fix the queues. try present in advanced 3 which is the absolute default recommendation anywhere.
type the correct peak brightness in madVR. you need to measure that. if you can't try a number between 50-100 nits. it's a PJ they don have brightness it will never look like a TV which is easily magnitudes brighter.

rules 12.

I went ahead and built a new PC just for madVR. With the new PC and changes to the value under frames present in advanced 3, and nit value of 75, I now have a smooth playback with no lag and bright enough image. However, I was still getting inferior picture quality compared to direct play from my sources, Nvidia Shield, ATV4k and Vero 4k+. Then I stumbled upon Asmodian's post. I copied his settings.bin and made changes to to match my projector, and I am getting fantastic details now but the image quality in like I am watching a 720p DVD. Very soft image, below average resolution/sharpness and grainy picture, no where near the quality when paying a file directly. Great detail but degraded image quality. Not sure which setting is degrading the image quality. I have nothing checked under processing, left everything at the default setting. The new PC has Windows 10 version 22H2 if that matters and running the latest drivers for my GPU, Nvidia 3060 TI .

I have attached a screenshot taken when playing back a video. I see the image is being downscaled to 1080p. Is that supposed to be the case with tone mapping? My projector are eShift 4k projectors from JVC and Epson which can display 4k so why the downscale in madVR? Where can I disable downscaling to a lower resolution? I am wondering if madVR is scaling to the displays native resolution. I would like to pass a 4k resolution to my projectors if possible.

Anyone else has a setting.bin file to share for a projector? Sorry for all the newbie questions. Thanks!

[DTL]

When I tried to experiment with downscaling 4k to 1080p (my PJ is native 1080p) I found that limited options for downscaling in compare to upscaling were not producing natural looking SQ at all. I found BD rips played native 1080p better looking than 4k rips downscaled to 1080p.


The rip-creators may use different tweaks to make 1080p rips looks much sharper in compare with many simple downscalers result (like simple bilinear for example). From using some downscalers with adjustable 'peaking' effect to increase acutance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acutance) to usage complex non-linear sharpeners.

So if you not find the best looking downscaler from avaiable in renderer list you may try to add 'sharpener' processing after downscale.

[vanschneidermann]

Is there a fix to make madVR works with the second display, when running Windows 11 ?

[huhn]

try beta 166.
https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
this version is time gated it will only work for a couple of months. so remember to update as soon as possible.

@DVDIT
madVR doesn't just downscale or something.
if you don't run your device at UHD or allow madVR to use that it will just use the resolution your desktop runs at.

BTW. old JVC PJ can't do 4k even with eshift is pretty much a hoax is the resolution higher than 1080p yes but that doesn't make it 4K worse than faux 4K screens back in the day which in theory had at least the resolution.

[DVDIT]

@DVDIT
madVR doesn't just downscale or something.
if you don't run your device at UHD or allow madVR to use that it will just use the resolution your desktop runs at.

BTW. old JVC PJ can't do 4k even with eshift is pretty much a hoax is the resolution higher than 1080p yes but that doesn't make it 4K worse than faux 4K screens back in the day which in theory had at least the resolution.

Thanks, I am running all my sources set to pass 4k to the AVR and AVR sends 4k to the capture card, all @4k 23.98 Hz.

I bought the JVC projector last year from a dealer brand new with 4 year optional warranty. Got robbed!! :devil:

Would a Vertex 2 help in any way to overcome this 4k HDR shorting comings?

[huhn]

not related check the desktop resolution.

[DVDIT]

@huhn, not sure I fully understand what you mean. My desktop is @3180 x2160 @24hz.

If I want madVR to upscale 1080p sources, what should be the feed my sources, Shield Pro, ATV 4+ and Vero 4k+ ? In other words, what is the best resolution output/settings on these streamer for madVR to do the upscaling when needed? Thanks!

[huhn]

nothing you ignore your source device until your setup locally works.

when it work the best solution would be resolution matching so your source doesn't scale. but this is the madVR thread not a thread about your not even allowed sources for madVR.

[jandari]

Still using Kodi 17.6 with dsplayer on rtx 3070. Since 1.66 some menus and overlay like movie play status don't appear on top of video anymore.

[mclingo]

Still using Kodi 17.6 with dsplayer on rtx 3070. Since 1.66 some menus and overlay like movie play status don't appear on top of video anymore.

have you tried this version, its supposed to have some gui / overlay fixes compared to the now ageing DSPLAYER.

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=351534

[mzso]

Hi!
Probably a dumb question: Do I need to install DX11 manually on Win10?
I set madVR to use D3D 11 for presentation, but it shows D3D9 new path.

[jandari]

have you tried this version, its supposed to have some gui / overlay fixes compared to the now ageing DSPLAYER.

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=351534

Same problem...

[Warez]

Maybe it's not the right place to ask, but in HDR why the subtitles looks ugly(er), the edges not smooth at all. When i change to SDR, the subtitle is anti-aliased, and looks nice.
I am using madVR + internal subtitle renderer (but all other renderer do the same), and for the subtitle using desktop resolution.

[huhn]

depnds on the subtitles pgs for example are images and on UHD bd they are still 1080p.

[mark0077]

Guys can someone point me to any info on whether there's a nice solution for handling Windows own HDR on/off toggle. I have been using madVR on my C1 for some time now, in Windows 11, with Windows own HDR toggle off and madVR correctly switches to HDR mode and back when needed.

But now that I'm using a lot of new games that support HDR, but they usually cannot make the switch to HDR themselves, I'm considering leaving HDR always on in windows itself.

What I don't know however is if madVR has a way to in this case either switch back to non HDR for SDR content, or do some sort of conversion of color spaces etc and display SDR correctly within that HDR window? I'm trying to make the HTPC wife proof, so don't want to have to press any keyswitches etc to switch in / out of the correct modes for movies/games etc.

[Joniii]

I updated Nvidia drivers to latest game ready driver and lost hdr in madvr + mpc-hc. Does anyone know what driver version is the latest that works?

[brazen1]

I updated Nvidia drivers to latest game ready driver and lost hdr in madvr + mpc-hc. Does anyone know what driver version is the latest that works?

Using the latest Nvidia 531.18 driver with no problems on various players with and without madVR including MPC. Prior to this driver (many builds), after playing various videos, randomly SDR would stick and not switch to HDR when it should have. Sometimes turning display and AVR off/on fixed it, sometimes it required a reboot. Hasn't happened using this new driver after many videos that previously would have occurred by now. Crossing fingers.

[SirMaster]

Guys can someone point me to any info on whether there's a nice solution for handling Windows own HDR on/off toggle. I have been using madVR on my C1 for some time now, in Windows 11, with Windows own HDR toggle off and madVR correctly switches to HDR mode and back when needed.

But now that I'm using a lot of new games that support HDR, but they usually cannot make the switch to HDR themselves, I'm considering leaving HDR always on in windows itself.

What I don't know however is if madVR has a way to in this case either switch back to non HDR for SDR content, or do some sort of conversion of color spaces etc and display SDR correctly within that HDR window? I'm trying to make the HTPC wife proof, so don't want to have to press any keyswitches etc to switch in / out of the correct modes for movies/games etc.

https://github.com/terrymacdonald/DisplayMagician

[Warez]

depnds on the subtitles pgs for example are images and on UHD bd they are still 1080p.

No, its normal external SRT

[huhn]

should be the font in that case.
are you sure they are the same between SDR and HDR?

[Warez]

should be the font in that case.
are you sure they are the same between SDR and HDR?

Yes, because when i touch the mouse and go down for open the slider, the picture (colors) switch to SDR colormap, until the slider is there, and then the fonts are smooth.
Maybe it's related to colormap?
Unfortunately i can't show screenshot, because it's on my monitor only. i tried :D

[huhn]

control print doesn't work?

that sounds like DXVA or other GPU processing

[Sunspark]

You can take a photo using your phone if taking a screenshot doesn't work.

[Warez]

control print doesn't work?

that sounds like DXVA or other GPU processing

Control print is works, but when i change back SDR, the both screenshot looks the same.
But based on Sunspark's idea, i tried to make photo via my phone, but of course its not very good quality.

Check the top of the "t" letter for example. The top picture is the HDR, the bottom is when switched to SDR. In SDR the fonts are more antialised. By naked eye clearly see the difference, on picture it's harder but noticable.

https://imgur.com/a/Gj3kX1v

Thanks Sunpark, link added instead of attachment.

[Sunspark]

Attachments never get approved here, you need to upload the image to a different site and then provide the link to it.

[mzso]

Hi!

Is deinterlacing supposed to work with D3D11 nowadays? It says "deinterlacing on", but I still see a lot of combing near the edges of things. It's a lot less though compared to deinterlacing being off.

So is it just AMD's HW deinterlacing being garbage? Is it best to use LAV's bobweaver?

[huhn]

for presentation it always worked it doesn't work with d3d11 decode.

AMD deint can work when the stars are aligned correctly at least i got it working on one driver.

else it is utter garbage.

@Warez
check your levels maybe they are over exposed and the fine gradian is cut out.

[Sunspark]

Is it best to use LAV's bobweaver?

There is no best, because it's dependent on how it was done in the first place.

What you need to do is load up the file/stream that you're actually going to be watching and try each de-int algorithm one-by-one to see which one works the best appearance-wise. Don't pay attention to the names, only the appearance of the final result, namely the least amount of combing, flicker, etc.

[Joniii]

Using the latest Nvidia 531.18 driver with no problems on various players with and without madVR including MPC. Prior to this driver (many builds), after playing various videos, randomly SDR would stick and not switch to HDR when it should have. Sometimes turning display and AVR off/on fixed it, sometimes it required a reboot. Hasn't happened using this new driver after many videos that previously would have occurred by now. Crossing fingers.

Thanks. I downloaded the latest driver from Nvidia (531.29) and HDR works fine now without any issues. Previously I updated drivers from GeForce Experience. I'm not really sure what the driver version was or what went wrong.

[e-t172]

I'm considering leaving HDR always on in windows itself.

What I don't know however is if madVR has a way to in this case either switch back to non HDR for SDR content, or do some sort of conversion of color spaces etc and display SDR correctly within that HDR window?

I personally keep Windows HDR always on (on Windows 11).

When playing HDR content with Windows HDR enabled, madVR uses the Windows HDR APIs instead of the NVidia HDR APIs. As far as I know there should be no difference between the two on Windows 11. On Windows 10 however, last time I checked, the Windows HDR APIs did not properly pass through HDR metadata (e.g. maxCLL), resulting in the TV selecting a suboptimal tone mapping curve.

When playing SDR content with Windows HDR enabled, madVR will output SDR, which is then automatically converted to HDR by Windows. I have verified that Windows does this SDR-to-HDR conversion correctly - i.e. it accurately maps the SDR gamut within the HDR "container". However, it's worth noting that Windows assumes a SDR gamma of 2.2 when doing that conversion, which is arguably not great - a BT.1886 (2.4) gamma would be more appropriate. Also, the way your TV displays the SDR gamut when operating in HDR mode might be different from the way your TV displays "native" SDR. (Ironically, on my LG G1 I prefer this SDR-in-HDR mode, because it doesn't suffer from the infamous black crush issues of the LG SDR mode.) In any case, all these issues can always be worked around by configuring a 3DLUT in madVR, if you are so inclined.

[ryrynz]

I used to have HDR on in Windows but then found the colours were all washed out for SDR content on my Panasonic OLED, pretty weird that the mapping isn't accurate.. But oh well.. It's seamless transitioning here anyway.

[Warez]

@Warez
check your levels maybe they are over exposed and the fine gradian is cut out.

May i ask where can i find these things?
What levels? brightness?

[Sunspark]

Out of curiosity, does anyone here downscale 4K to HD in order to get the full chroma that comes with it, instead of upscaling chroma at HD using one of the scaling algorithms?

This video is interesting to contemplate https://youtu.be/kIf9h2Gkm_U

According to that video, if the source is 4K one would get free 4:4:4 chroma in addition to the luma when downscaling to HD.

Where MadVR is concerned you can downscale using DXVA2 in the GPU, or you can do it in software with the pixel shaders such as cubic.

I wonder how noticeable the difference is, upscaling chroma vs downscaling from 4K?

I took a quick look, the HUD says it is still upscaling the chroma.

[ryrynz]

I wonder how noticeable the difference is, upscaling chroma vs downscaling from 4K?


Not much different which is why they do it. Noticeable on certain test patterns and situations only.

[huhn]

May i ask where can i find these things?
What levels? brightness?

depends on the TV.
level setting doesn't have to be identical between 2 display modes like SDR and HDR.
they have al kinds of names.
Out of curiosity, does anyone here downscale 4K to HD in order to get the full chroma that comes with it, instead of upscaling chroma at HD using one of the scaling algorithms?

This video is interesting to contemplate https://youtu.be/kIf9h2Gkm_U

According to that video, if the source is 4K one would get free 4:4:4 chroma in addition to the luma when downscaling to HD.

Where MadVR is concerned you can downscale using DXVA2 in the GPU, or you can do it in software with the pixel shaders such as cubic.

I wonder how noticeable the difference is, upscaling chroma vs downscaling from 4K?

I took a quick look, the HUD says it is still upscaling the chroma.
not really true well known and wrong at the same time.

you can not downscale the 4K luma to FHD and match the chroma channel that easily it still needs a X shift that's a scaling operation chanaging every chroma pixel.
DXVA2 and what ever browser do as downscaling is so terrible the luma channel will get massive damage.

you unchecked scale chroma separately from luma if it saves performance so it is still scaling chroma first else it wouldn't.

assuming a lossless encode and the same scaling algorithm downscaling 4K to 1080 instead of getting a 1080 source would always be better to bad they don't do that.

[flossy_cake]

Chroma subsampling is another annoying problem that we're saddled with for generations. It's a terrible thing that is baked into every video, just like interlacing used to be baked into every video and creates problems. Of course under ideal conditions it shouldn't be noticeable, but I sold a Panasonic OLED because its chroma upscaling was broken and looked bad even at 3.5m viewing distance - I could see the chroma jaggies at 3.5m, not pixel peeping. I've encountered many older TV shows with wrong chroma position baked into the source. I can fix this with Avisynth script but it's a pain and changes from season to season, or episode to episode. Even one of my local TV stations has wrong chroma position. Many TV channels using wrong colourimetry as well.

Unless you get the chroma position exactly correct then it may not be "true 1080p" supersampled from 4k. It's kind of interesting how we can spot chroma position errors with our eyes, but very difficult to come up with an algorithm to detect it in the source. From algorithm's perspective, there is no way to know if that chroma is supposed to be hanging over the edge, or if it's bad position. But when we look at it we can tell it's not supposed to be like that.

[flossy_cake]

The show I'm looking at currently is Lois & Clark The New Adventures of Superman. In HD it looks quite obvious that the characters are on a set and it looks a bit fake

It looks fine to me.. what I am noticing is that the gamma isn't quite right. It's a little washed out.

Try going into the madvr settings, "color & gamma" enable gamma processing checkbox on and for "pure power curve" change it from 2.20 to 1.80 which will make it lighter, and then 2.60 which will make it darker.. see which end is better for your display/eyes, then adjust it in 0.05 increments.

Well now that I finally got around to watching this show I'm starting to see what you were talking about here - the colour grading does look rather "washed out" and lifeless at times, moreso in the rest of season 1. I compared it to the DVD release and it's no contest, I much prefer the colour grading of the DVD. I mean it's full of dodgy hues, low pass filtering and analogue artefacts, but subjectively it looks way better to me - exactly how I remember it 20 years ago. Feels like the Superman universe. This HD remaster just never felt right to me, it felt like a completely different show, couldn't get into it. The 480i special effects look completely out of place in the 1080 remaster as well.

But, MadVR's [blacklevel=-5] seems to provide a compelling improvement. I compared on numerous scenes and this setting seems to match the shadow detail levels of the DVD (but not always). I believe this is -5 in the 8-bit scale, even when playing a 10-bit video MadVR seems to use the same scale. The effect seems to be similar to using a higher gamma, but with more darkening of the darker tones relative to what gamma does. If I had to guess I'd say MadVR is just mapping black level to a value of -5 on the 8-bit scale and then scaling the rest of the tones linearly to 255. So 5 in the source comes out as 0 at the display, and 255 comes out as 255, with a linear interpolation of all the values in between (presumably - I haven't confirmed this with test patterns yet).

edit: just found some night scenes that need [blacklevel=-16] to have the same shadow detail as the DVD version. I'm thinking the HD remaster might be a total writeoff as this extreme setting of -16 destroys other scenes and makes them look obviously wrong.

[a8213711]

In this image https://imgur.com/a/Dit1Z2Z you can see on the hand some banding (is this the appropriate name?), but this kind of artifact only appears on saved images and not on playback on MPC-HC; this appears with whatever setting I use on madVR "screenshots" and between the different de-banding options I don't see differences. Can I do something about it?

[Sunspark]

It might be your monitor or video driver. I don't see any banding on the hand using the browser or an image viewer.

[a8213711]

It might be your monitor or video driver. I don't see any banding on the hand using the browser or an image viewer.

Indeed from the browser I can't see it, but I saved that imgur image I posted (in case the site alters it) and I can see the problem on MS Paint, my image viewer (https://www.howtogeek.com/225844/how-to-make-windows-photo-viewer-your-default-image-viewer-on-windows-10/), and more importantly, if I use it as Windows wallpaper.
This is what I see zoomed in: https://imgur.com/a/vR3dW8j (now it's visible in the browser.)

[Sunspark]

I see what you mean, I can see it in MS Paint now but not in irfanview even at 400% zoom. Curious.

Almost looks like scanlines. Might be a colour profile issue.

You should try taking that screenshot again using different video renderers like mpcvr and evr-cp to see if the same thing happens again.

[JNW]

Could be madVR. Use print screen on keyboard, paste to MS Paint and save as PNG

[ryrynz]

Almost looks like scanlines. Might be a colour profile issue.


Same, it's in paint and Photos but not Xnview Classic and MP. Is this an MS Paint jpeg decoding issue? or does the screenshot actually have these lines?

Might want to post a clip.

[huhn]

you could start by not using an JPG.

edit: there is an embebbed icc file that should be the issue. if you have madVR setup to ignore it or it does a better job with it is not known to me.

the image always has some banding but the profile seem to break it because application that ignore profiles will not show the lines.
still not a proof.

[a8213711]

Now I tried saving from the built-in option of MPC-HC (File > Save image) as JPG (maybe this bypasses madVR > Screnshots settings?) and the problem is still there, but saving as PNG solves it! But I still prefer to use JPG with madVR if possible, does anyone else have this problem? Here is a clip: https://www.mediafire.com/file/efmhddyzej7e8p9/W.mkv/file



...there is an embebbed icc file that should be the issue. if you have madVR setup to ignore it or it does a better job with it is not known to me...
If you are talking about madVR > Devices > Calibration, I have that OFF.

[huhn]

no icc profiles are loaded on a system level.
the screenshoot function does not bypass the video renderer.

jpg have the issue that they are not decoded one way they can need a scaler and such also a YCbCr->RGB conversation.

i don't know if madVR can even load an ICC profile to put it into a screen shoot. i could only test if there was one in the tool said yes.
so decode it correct some tools didn't.