madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[e-t172]

There is also a fundamental difference in that the goal of Smooth Motion is to get closer to the way the content is supposed to look (native frame rate). It's much harder however to advocate motion interpolation because it tends to impose a "soap opera" look on everything, which arguably violates the artist's intent. Therefore it is a highly controversial feature and not at all an obvious "next step" or improvement. The real solution is to fix the source (i.e. HFR, high frame rate material) so that the artist can do whatever he wants, but that's still a long ways out it seems.

[Ver Greeneyes]

it tends to impose a "soap opera" look on everything,
Could you describe what this means? I don't tend to watch soap operas so I can't really picture it.

[StinDaWg]

Could you describe what this means? I don't tend to watch soap operas so I can't really picture it.
Everything looks unnaturally smooth and fake.

[fairchild]

Everything looks unnaturally smooth and fake.

Have you seen the Hobbit moves at 48 fps? That's what it looks like, though those movies were shot at 48fps (double of standard cinema frame rate of 24 fps or 23.976) and thus everything looks very smooth and and fluid. So those movies don't have any artificial frames inserted which can cause artifacts.

[e-t172]

Could you describe what this means? I don't tend to watch soap operas so I can't really picture it.

Basically anything on TV that's not a movie or a TV show. News, sports, most documentaries, etc. the kind of thing one usually deinterlaces with double frame rate (as opposed to IVTC). Making movies look like this radically changes their look in a way that the artist never intended. Some people like it and don't care about accuracy or the artist's intent, some (like me) do. Which is why I would probably never use such a feature even if it was artifact-free.

For the (very) rare movies that are originally shot a high frame rate (such as hobbit HFR) this is fine since that's what the artist intended.

[nevcairiel]

Have you seen the Hobbit moves at 48 fps? That's what it looks like

Actually there is quite a visible difference between movies shot at higher frame rates and movies interpolated to higher framerates. You can't properly undo the motion blur applied to the 24 fps movies, so you'll never get the sharp and fluid look of a true high-fps movie, it'll always be blurrier.

[StinDaWg]

Actually there is quite a visible difference between movies shot at higher frame rates and movies interpolated to higher framerates. You can't properly undo the motion blur applied to the 24 fps movies, so you'll never get the sharp and fluid look of a true high-fps movie, it'll always be blurrier.
This.

I'm a big fan of 60 fps for sporting events, but that's true 60 fps and not frame interpolation.

[Ver Greeneyes]

Thanks for the answers guys :) I don't know how sensitive I am to this, although the 8 fps hand drawn Studio Ghibli stuff is really uncomfortable to watch for me (I understand the tradeoff, but it hurts my eyes).

[jmone]

I have a camcorder that shoots AVC in 1920x0180/50p (28Mbps) and it is great. No Interlacing issues, smooth panning and all very natural. I would prefer to have HFR over 4K for commercial content as on most screen sizes you can not visually resolve the higher res but the HFR is easily noticed.

[DragonQ]

Everything looks unnaturally smooth and fake.

Disagree. 50/60 fps looks much more realistic than 24/25 fps, but that's the whole point. The "film look" (low fps) is the one that's unnatural and unrealistic, which is why it's so jarring to see films at 48 fps, for example. Just need to get used to it really.

There's plenty of 50/60 fps content out there but interpolated stuff will never look as good obviously.

[Delerue]

smooth motion blends frames occasionally, in case the video framerate isn't a multiple of the display refresh rate to avoid sudden jumps and skips.

Are you talking about madVR? Are you sure? Can anyone else confirm this? Why not just simply extend/reduce frame exposure time?

Actually there is quite a visible difference between movies shot at higher frame rates and movies interpolated to higher framerates. You can't properly undo the motion blur applied to the 24 fps movies, so you'll never get the sharp and fluid look of a true high-fps movie, it'll always be blurrier.

Correct me if I wrong, but as long as I know what determines the motion blur is the shutter timing (i.e. degree), not the FPS. So in theory you can get sharp images with 24 FPS using low shutter exposure times, although it will appear less smooth for sure.

There are movies that reduce the shutter exposure timing in some sequences. One famous example is 'Saving Private Ryan' (beach sequence). More info here (http://cinemashock.org/2012/07/30/45-degree-shutter-in-saving-private-ryan/). Ironically, the photography director said: 'By applying 45 degree shutter, we are achieving certain staccato in actor’s movement. We are achieving certain crispiness of explosions. Everything becomes slightly, just slightly more realistic'. This confirm what DragonQ just said: more frames seem to look closer to reality than less. Also, we have to remember that 24 FPS is not necessarily a visual preference of filmmakers, but a very old industry standard.

[6233638]

Correct me if I wrong, but as long as I know what determines the motion blur is the shutter timing (i.e. degree), not the FPS. So in theory you can get sharp images with 24 FPS using low shutter exposure times, although it will appear less smooth for sure.You have to strike a balance between motion blur and judder when filming at 24fps.
You can have very sharp images with no blur at all, but it will look like a stop-motion picture, rather than producing smooth movement.
A fast panning shot needs more motion blur than a slow panning shot to avoid judder.
At high framerates, less motion blur is required because there's more information that allows you to track motion smoothly.

High framerate content is very different from interpolated content.
While HFR video may have looked strange in The Hobbit, it's only because we haven't been exposed to something like that our whole lives, as we have with 24fps.
Give it some time and you will soon get used to HFR content, and anything less will look terrible.

[Ceremony]

Everything looks unnaturally smooth and fake.

soap operas and a lot of tv content was shot with cheaper 50i/60i cameras, which is why smooth content got the name "soap opera" effect.

Overall, the soap opera effect is MORE NATURAL, as 24fps clearly is not enough for human eyes. Movie content is actually unnatural and fake (when compared to reality, which is super smoooooth).

Bottom line:
The higher the framerate, the better.
48fps movies are a great improvement upon the old 24fps standard. However, our eyes can perceive more than 48fps, but it should already be much less obvious, especially with scrolling credits :)
Frame Interpolation works in certain cases and always comes with major drawbacks (quality, accuracy, performance). perfect interpolation is impossible.

[MistahBonzai]

Everything looks unnaturally smooth and fake.

Yeah..just like real life ;)

[StinDaWg]

Disagree. 50/60 fps looks much more realistic than 24/25 fps, but that's the whole point. The "film look" (low fps) is the one that's unnatural and unrealistic, which is why it's so jarring to see films at 48 fps, for example. Just need to get used to it really.

There's plenty of 50/60 fps content out there but interpolated stuff will never look as good obviously.
Did you even read my followup post? I'm not talking about true 60 fps content, only interpolated.

[James Freeman]

You can't properly undo the motion blur applied to the 24 fps movies, so you'll never get the sharp and fluid look of a true high-fps movie, it'll always be blurrier.

High framerate content is very different from interpolated content.

No, you can't undo camera motion blur but, it'll minimize the Eye Tracking Blur by narrowing the gap between the object in motion.
A good FI algo can do wonders in the right hands even without eliminating captured blur (or creating unwanted artifacts like SVP when interpolating this blur).

I wonder why non of the commercial software players tried to write a good FI for their products.
Anyway, its up to madshi and probably not till v1.0, or ever..?

Thanks for the answers guys, I don't know how sensitive I am to this (HFR soap opera effect).
You mean you haven't seen a single HFR video ??? Once you've seen it, you can never go back to 24fps (or you may hate it).
Try this: HFR Samples (http://www.hfrmovies.com/high-frame-rate-example-videos/)

The more you watch HFR videos the quicker your eye "breaks in" into the new (and better IMO) experience.
Soon enough 24fps will become 20th century left over junk.
I can almost guarantee that the studios will be converting old 24fps material into HFR as soon as the new blu ray standard comes out.
The Hobbit series will obviousley be the first to appear.

[johnniedoo]

I have just noticed that I am getting significant 'presentation glitches after I switch from 'forced film' 24hz refresh on monitor and smooth motion on
If i disable auto detect , I get multiple dropped frames in the forced movie (or video) option and , of course, it forces the monitor to be in 24hz for the old movies i tend to watch.
i check all the movies/videos i watch with 'media info' f for whatever info i can get on whether it is interlaced or not and never really sure on the fps listed
when i watch these old movies -usually either isos i made from dvd mpg-2 some are interleaved, some are listed as progressive and all of that is still pretty mysterious to me, but play back and the de interlace option may become necessary . i often uncheck the madvr deinterlace all together or use the disable if not sure
I use ffdshow external filters as they have worked best for m y overall movie/video preferences and use the latest available from source forge and de interlace there when needed.
If i watch this type of movie in forced movie i get all kinds of frame drops, if i keep the auto detect enabled, and put the refresh rate to 60hz i get a fine picture, more or less with some blur with the smooth motion but 3-6frames adding to the presentation glitch tally as i keep the control+J osd on for these changes.
the frame drops are quite noticeable if i leave force movie w/24refresh. which also is forced on my monitor when checked. at least as i have things configured all down the line. i use reclock sometimes and the 'treat 25 as 24fps' checked for reclock and uncheck it if i opt out of reclock to find best way to watch.
profiles are fine however way too much for all the different movies, i would have to start to make individual profiles for individual movies and then not be able to keep track of which is which since many of these old movies are from public domain and in all kinds of different formats.
I seem to have most issues with the mpeg-2 from iso
and the 'streaming video' mp4, mpeg4 , wmv are ok though the avi divx are often glitchy , too in mpc-be/mad vr.
use plenty of gpu resources , or can, if i do not alter options for each movie/video. this combo does, in most cases, show a far better final outcome than my commercial movie players from the 2 or 3major companies. i tend to use them only in last resort.
even with 6000+'presentation glitches' and not all the way through a 58 or 64min movie the picture and lip sync are excellent.
so, i am not really sure what the glitches actually are.
i read from other posts that it may be in the ffdshow and/or mpc-be components and i do check them as well along the way. only use deinterlacing sometimes, debanding rarely and disable the 'shaders' totally other than sometimes the 'greyscale' for old avi/dvix which can have a greenish tint.
just my more recent experiences since going to 87.10

[ryrynz]

While HFR video may have looked strange in The Hobbit, it's only because we haven't been exposed to something like that our whole lives, as we have with 24fps.


Quick bit of OT.

The reason why it looks so strange is because quite often there is little to no motion blur. We see things in comparatively high frame rate but with motion blur in fast moving areas. When looking at 'An Unexpected Journey' the HFR helps in 3D as Peter claimed but it looked very weird and soap opera-ish overall.

Thankfully Peter improved the process in The Desolation of Smaug and applied selective motion blur to certain scenes making is a lot more natural.. it still wasn't perfect but I'm sure it'll mature in time.

[THX-UltraII]

You can't remove that, yet. My recommendation would be to just use the new windowed mode, it's most excellent.

Madshi, can you think about making a checkbox or something to disable the EXCLUSIVE notification? It is the last visual aspect that keeps my HTPC from being able to notice it is a HTPC :)

[aufkrawall]

There is also a fundamental difference in that the goal of Smooth Motion is to get closer to the way the content is supposed to look (native frame rate). It's much harder however to advocate motion interpolation because it tends to impose a "soap opera" look on everything, which arguably violates the artist's intent. Therefore it is a highly controversial feature and not at all an obvious "next step" or improvement. The real solution is to fix the source (i.e. HFR, high frame rate material) so that the artist can do whatever he wants, but that's still a long ways out it seems.
Smooth motion also adds motion blur, especially if you set it to "always on" with little difference between fps and refreshrate.

Without frame interpolation, you have visual artifacts too, namely motion judder.
So in many scenes you have unsmooth motion + judder artifacts.
With interpolation, you'd have smooth motion + interpolation artifacts.

Don't judge for other people what is best. Frame interpolation is a standard feature of current TVs and I think many users would like to have it on a PC monitor.

I know SVP, but it never worked well for me in terms of performance.
Anyway, I think with a GPU like Tahiti or greater, such a feature (efficiently done) would be no real problem in terms of performance.
And GM204 will most likely be released this year.

[huhn]

Smooth motion also adds motion blur, especially if you set it to "always on" with little difference between fps and refreshrate.

it makes the picture a little bit more unsharp and it technical creates ghosting. simply blending artefacts.
at long as SM gets used with high Frame rate it doesn't good job of hiding this.

BTW. a lot of TV does the same when set to 23p...
Without frame interpolation, you have visual artifacts too, namely motion judder.
23p at 23p looks pretty smooth to me like the chinema...

So in many scenes you have unsmooth motion + judder artifacts.
With interpolation, you'd have smooth motion + interpolation artifacts.
frame interpolation creates motion judder too like a ball that gets slower over time the interpolation creates a picture where it is at the middle of both frames, but if is was shoot with real 48 fps it wouldn't be there because it was slow downed in the mean while.

Don't judge for other people what is best. Frame interpolation is a standard feature of current TVs and I think many users would like to have it on a PC monitor.
by adding Frame interpolation you need to add A LOT of input lag. nothing for a PC-Monitor at all.

I know SVP, but it never worked well for me in terms of performance.
Anyway, I think with a GPU like Tahiti or greater, such a feature (efficiently done) would be no real problem in terms of performance.
And GM204 will most likely be released this year.
SVP can use openCL. but i always have to laugh at the out put how terrible the how object deforming was, BTW. SVP uses frame repeat by default not frame blending so it adds judder too. and if you change it to blending it adds the same artefacts SM adds.

[aufkrawall]

23p at 23p looks pretty smooth to me like the chinema...

I see judder with it. Hard to describe it, a little bit like ghosting. And not just with camera pans, also with moving objects (also on plasma).
Everything below 30fps can't look smooth by definition.


by adding Frame interpolation you need to add A LOT of input lag. nothing for a PC-Monitor at all.

Not relevant to video rendering at all.


SVP can use openCL. but i always have to laugh at the out put how terrible the how object deforming was, BTW. SVP uses frame repeat by default not frame blending so it adds judder too. and if you change it to blending it adds the same artefacts SM adds.
I never said SVP would be great.
There are TVs with better frame interpolation though.

[Guest]

Guys, let's stay on topic: madVR. Thank you.

[James Freeman]

I see judder with it. Hard to describe it, a little bit like ghosting. And not just with camera pans, also with moving objects (also on plasma).
Everything below 30fps can't look smooth by definition.
Because of something called Eye-Tracking Motion Blur when you watch any sample-and-hold screen (LCD & OLED).
Read about it: Here (http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur/)
This kind of blur happens when your brain expects the image/object to be in a different place (in motion) while the image is still in the last place.
Its in your brain.

Shorter draw distance between a moving object (frame interpolation) can decrease this greatly.
Flickering the image for a fraction of a second (1-2 ms) like a CRT, can eliminate this kind of blur completely (for your brain).
Black Frame Insertion (BFI) tries to emulate that by shortening the displayed image time by substituting the rest of the same frame with black frames (ie: 240 Hz TV playing 24p content will show 1 frame of the film and 9 frames of black, for each movie frame).

Not relevant to video rendering at all.
True.
As long as the Audio & Video are synced, I don't mind few seconds of lag at all.
Do you know the lag of a stand alone Blu-Ray player...? it can be anything.

EDIT:
@neuron2
Sorry about that, You posted while I was typing.
Although I think this conversation is about: Frame Interpolation would be great as part of madvr.

[madshi]

It's well known that I don't accept feature requests at the moment. Also frame interpolation was already discussed multiple times in the past. So I agree with neuron2. Please discuss frame interpolation in a new thread, if you must. Thanks, guys.

[madshi]

Hmm, maybe that's not a bad idea for a feature request, to have a switch that would tell madvr to avoid scaling factors very close to 1.0x (1916 -> 1920 etc...) and just pad with black bars instead.
Something like this is my short term to do list, already, together with some related changes/improvements.

i just did a test, i set it back to 60hz all is fine, i set madvr to change it to 1080p59 it has the same problem. In previous madvr versions this used to work, not really sure when that was broken, but the reason for trying to use 1080p59 is to remove judder without the blur caused by smooth motion.
Could you please double check by going back to older madVR versions? It would be quite surprising to me if this was really a new issue. I think you'll find that the same problem will also occur with older madVR versions, because I think the issue's probably got nothing to do with madVR, but probably your refresh rate is simply too low. But I'm just guessing here. Maybe I'm wrong...

I'm not sure I understand your take here. The whole reason to use decimation on 720p59.94 videos is to play it back at it's original frame rate of 23.976. [...]

I don't see why you would want to use IVTC on true 59/60 fps content like sports, that doesn't even make any sense. It's supposed to be played back at that frame rate because it was filmed that way.
Take a step back and look at the bigger picture, in this case usability: Ideally you want to just playback some content without having to worry about which cadence it has. It should be madVR's job, only, to worry about such things. Why would you have to force madVR into film mode? Why does madVR not detect such things itself and switch everything around accordingly? The reason for that is that I've simply not implemented film vs video detection for interlaced content yet. But at some point I plan to.

Now let's look at 720p50/60 content: For this I don't have to detect film vs. video, I just have to detect the underlying cadence and that already tells me everything I need to do. So decimating 720p50/60 content is much easier than handling unknown interlaced content.

Basically, madVR could already be able *right now* to automatically handle any 720p50/60 content and decimate whatever needs to be decimated. So you could enable madVR decimation for progressive content and you'd never ever have to disable it again. E.g. consider watching TV broadcasts in real time: There'll be a movie (3:2 frame cadence), then there'll be some ads (maybe 3:2, or 2:2, or 1:1 frame cadence). madVR's cadence detection should auto detect all that and can then throw away just the duplicate frames. The nice thing is that everything could be done automatically.

However, here comes the catch: There's a chance that the cadence could change back and forth multiple times in a short time period, e.g. from one advertisement spot to the next. We do not really want madVR to switch refresh rates all the time when that happens, do we? So running at 60Hz makes some sense because it can handle any cadence, and smooth motion takes take of 3:2 content, too.

Of course I understand that if you know for a fact that your content is really film only, and every part of it is 3:2 cadence, then there's no need to use 60Hz and you can simply use 23Hz instead. But this once again requires your input: You need to tell madVR that you know that the content is straight 23Hz all the way through. Maybe I should add an option for that. But for the majority of users, letting madVR do everything automatically is preferable, and that's why currently I'm staying at 60Hz.

Anyway, that's just the current situation. I've some ideas for future builds. At the moment I've just implemented 720p50/60 decimation for the first time, so please just test whether it generally works, report bugs/problems you find, and please live for now with whatever shortcomings there might be. Once we've ironed out whatever bugs there might be, maybe I'll polish the whole thing to make everyone happy.

(I don't want any suggestions/ideas at this point, just bug reports or confirmations that everything works as expected within the limits of the current implementation.)

Here's a clip that glitches while seeking and from the start: http://www.mediafire.com/download/5f37jw6mv8q156l/sm+glitch+deint%3Dfilm.mpg it's reproducable most of the time, just jump around. If SM is off it doesn't happen at 60hz. At 48 and 50hz the glitches happen at 72 and 75 the glitches don't happen.
Is there already a bug entry in the tracker for this? If not, could you please create one? I don't have time for madVR at the moment. So this problem will get lost and forgotten if you don't add it to the tracker.

This anime clip (http://www.4shared.com/file/4CCpTKuece/One_Piece_444.html) (One Piece #444) is 1440x1080i59, obviously 2:2 cadence. When I press Ctrl+Shift+Alt+T twice (or add the tag "deint=ivtc"), the desktop refresh rate changes to 23Hz, resulting in lots of dropped frames. (The list of display modes is "1080p60, 1080p59, 1080p50, 1080p30, 1080p29, 1080p25, 1080p24, 1080p23", all of them are supported in my display.) So I have to add both tags "deint=ivtc" and "refreshRate=29".
Euwwh, why don't you use mediafire? I refuse to login to be able to download something.

Anyway, currently madVR's forced film mode is somewhat stupid in that it doesn't switch refresh rates based on the detected cadence. Implementing refresh rate switching based on detected cadence would be possible, but difficult, because the cadence can change all the time and we don't want the refresh rate to change all the time. I have some ideas on how to maybe solve this in the future, but for now forcing film mode on always naively switches to 23Hz. That's a known limitation of the current forced film mode implementation.

AFAIK its not limited to decimating to 24p, it can handle various patterns - it previously just encountered a few issues if it has to decimate way too many frames (ie. to 24p from 60p).
FWIW, decimation is not as flexible as it could be. In theory I could throw any duplicate fields away, but I'm a bit afraid of that. E.g. if I detect 5:5 I just decimate that to 4:4. That works fine for 23Hz playback. If I decimated 5:5 to 2:2 it could introduce severe motion stuttering if the cadence detection happens to be incorrect. It's possible (although it shouldn't happen) that a 3:2 cadence is misdetected as 5:5. Because of that I'm playing safe and just remove the fields I have to remove to get down to 23Hz. This is also the reason why decimation for progressive content (60p -> 23p) didn't work correctly. I've now implemented support just for decimating 6:4 -> 3:2 with 60p sources, and 4:4 -> 2:2 with 50p sources. Anything other than that still doesn't decimate all duplicate fields for now.

(I am sure you are busy with other things, so I don't necessarily expect anything to happen as a result of what follows.)

The current madVR Jinc4 (which I believe has a "deblur" set more or less like madVR's Jinc3) is a rather ordinary scheme compared to Jinc3.

The exceptional 4-lobe Jinc scheme is the one I've been calling EWA LanczosSharpest, and last showed off in the context of pixel art resampling. It is only different from what you do already in the "deblur" that defines it, which is smaller and consequently makes it use a smaller disc. In other words, the better Jinc4 is actually a cheaper scheme than what I understand you are using now.

In ImageMagick notation, it is defined by

-define filter:blur=0.88451002338585141

which I would guess could be accomplished a minor modification of madVR, and would provide a Jinc4 different from Jinc3 in a worthwhile way.
Thanks, I'll have a look at this when I find some time. At the moment I'm busy with my commercial projects.

seidweise over on the KCP Codec forum put out a program that detects OpenCL on systems (http://haruhichan.com/forum/showthread.php?7545-KCP-Kawaii-Codec-Pack&p=36999&viewfull=1#post36999). Looks like AMD and Intel have the lead over Nvidia when it comes to the OpenCL version implemented on their devices.
That's no new information. Every developer knows this. Nothing to see here, move on.

I have just noticed that I am getting significant 'presentation glitches after I switch from 'forced film' 24hz refresh on monitor and smooth motion on
If i disable auto detect , I get multiple dropped frames in the forced movie (or video) option and , of course, it forces the monitor to be in 24hz for the old movies i tend to watch.
i check all the movies/videos i watch with 'media info' f for whatever info i can get on whether it is interlaced or not and never really sure on the fps listed
when i watch these old movies -usually either isos i made from dvd mpg-2 some are interleaved, some are listed as progressive and all of that is still pretty mysterious to me, but play back and the de interlace option may become necessary . i often uncheck the madvr deinterlace all together or use the disable if not sure
I use ffdshow external filters as they have worked best for m y overall movie/video preferences and use the latest available from source forge and de interlace there when needed.
If i watch this type of movie in forced movie i get all kinds of frame drops, if i keep the auto detect enabled, and put the refresh rate to 60hz i get a fine picture, more or less with some blur with the smooth motion but 3-6frames adding to the presentation glitch tally as i keep the control+J osd on for these changes.
the frame drops are quite noticeable if i leave force movie w/24refresh. which also is forced on my monitor when checked. at least as i have things configured all down the line. i use reclock sometimes and the 'treat 25 as 24fps' checked for reclock and uncheck it if i opt out of reclock to find best way to watch.
profiles are fine however way too much for all the different movies, i would have to start to make individual profiles for individual movies and then not be able to keep track of which is which since many of these old movies are from public domain and in all kinds of different formats.
I seem to have most issues with the mpeg-2 from iso
and the 'streaming video' mp4, mpeg4 , wmv are ok though the avi divx are often glitchy , too in mpc-be/mad vr.
use plenty of gpu resources , or can, if i do not alter options for each movie/video. this combo does, in most cases, show a far better final outcome than my commercial movie players from the 2 or 3major companies. i tend to use them only in last resort.
even with 6000+'presentation glitches' and not all the way through a 58 or 64min movie the picture and lip sync are excellent.
so, i am not really sure what the glitches actually are.
i read from other posts that it may be in the ffdshow and/or mpc-be components and i do check them as well along the way. only use deinterlacing sometimes, debanding rarely and disable the 'shaders' totally other than sometimes the 'greyscale' for old avi/dvix which can have a greenish tint.
just my more recent experiences since going to 87.10
Your post is written in a way that makes it hard for me to say anything. I'm not sure if you have any specific question. Or if you expect a reply, or something. If you're worried about the presentation glitches, try disabling the "present several frames in advance" options in the "windowed mode" section of the madVR settings. Does that help? Or do you then get dropped frames instead?

Madshi, can you think about making a checkbox or something to disable the EXCLUSIVE notification?
This has been asked by other users, as well, but I don't accept feature requests at the moment. I'd have to add a whole new settings section just for this, and I don't consider it important at this time. There will probably a switch for this in madVR v1.0, but probably not before...

[James Freeman]

madshi, may I ask what is considered important at this advanced stage (in comparison to other renderers) of madVR?
Because when this thread does not run on madVR testing/questions/bugs/GPU benchmark, it runs on feature requests...

[Toco]

Could anybody explain me, what are these options about and when should I use them? My GPU is GeForce GT555M.
http://s020.radikal.ru/i712/1404/6b/00db39186c8d.png

[madshi]

madshi, may I ask what is considered important at this advanced stage (in comparison to other renderers) of madVR?
Because when this thread does not run on madVR testing/questions/bugs/GPU benchmark, it runs on feature requests...
I don't really understand your question.

Could anybody explain me, what are these options about and when should I use them? My GPU is GeForce GT555M.
These options sometimes help improving rendering performance/reliability. However, some systems have problems with these options. Especially nVidia Optimus systems used to have problems with that (not sure if that's true, anymore). So you can experiment with these to check if they improve anything for you. Or just leave them at the default settings (which is off).

[Anime Viewer]

These options sometimes help improving rendering performance/reliability. However, some systems have problems with these options. Especially nVidia Optimus systems used to have problems with that (not sure if that's true, anymore). So you can experiment with these to check if they improve anything for you. Or just leave them at the default settings (which is off).

What were the problems experienced by nVidia Optimus systems? Given I've got an Optimus system I can see if its still an issue, so Optimus users will know if its best to continue to leave them unchecked.

[Nico8583]

Hi,
I would like to play my 1080p MKV with MPC-HC or Potplayer (I don't really test them but it's another subject ;) ) without any filter (resize & co).
I have a Gigabyte Brix with 2955u CPU and Intel HD Graphics, and I would like to know if there is a difference between MadVR and others like LAV Filters and FFDShow, if I don't use any filter ?
Thanks !

[huhn]

Hi,
I would like to play my 1080p MKV with MPC-HC or Potplayer (I don't really test them but it's another subject ;) ) without any filter (resize & co).
I have a Gigabyte Brix with 2955u CPU and Intel HD Graphics, and I would like to know if there is a difference between MadVR and others like LAV Filters and FFDShow, if I don't use any filter ?
Thanks !

MadVR is a renderer first of all you need a renderer!
you can watch things with MadVR "untouched" there are still things you have to do chroma up sampling for example.

lavfilter is a video decocder, audio decoder, splitter and can do processing deintlacing/audio mixing.
ffdshow is a audio/video decoder and a image processor.

so the difference between ffdshow/lavfilter and MadVr is that one is renderer the rest not.

if you don't use MadVR you are using something else like VMR 9 or EVR CP. but they do things that need to be done in not the best way and they are affected by the gpu driver and the GPU driver thinks playing around with videos is a cool thing...

if you want to watch your movies in the most neutral way MadVR is a very very good choice.

[DD51]

sorry newbie here...

I have just 1 single problem with MadVR that I cannot figure out why it is happening.

when watching a TV show (720p) in full view it stutters like crazy.
It is silky smooth in windowed mode (not full screen)

No other files does this.
I have to use EVR for these files to play smooth.

what am I doing wrong?
thanks in advance

:helpful:

[dansrfe]

sorry newbie here...

I have just 1 single problem with MadVR that I cannot figure out why it is happening.

when watching a TV show (720p) in full view it stutters like crazy.
It is silky smooth in windowed mode (not full screen)

No other files does this.
I have to use EVR for these files to play smooth.

what am I doing wrong?
thanks in advance

:helpful:

This happened for a couple of my files as well. I think it has to do with improper frame rate tagging on the container. You may need to remux those particular files.

[livache]

* "Pause" OSD message no longer blocked

could this be made optional, please?
It displays the paused OSD at the end of playback in mpc-hc instead of just black fullscreen.
That can cause burn on plasma if left unsupervised for many hours (like falling asleep and forgetting to set the timer). MPC-HC doesn't show that paused OSD with any other renderer and probably for good reason.

[huhn]

sorry newbie here...

I have just 1 single problem with MadVR that I cannot figure out why it is happening.

when watching a TV show (720p) in full view it stutters like crazy.
It is silky smooth in windowed mode (not full screen)

No other files does this.
I have to use EVR for these files to play smooth.

what am I doing wrong?
thanks in advance

:helpful:

i guess your display is 1080p. what happen when you drag the windowed mode window bigger?

how high are the render times in fullscreen (control + j)and what type of hardware are you using?

[turbojet]

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Here's a clip that glitches while seeking and from the start: http://www.mediafire.com/download/5f...int%3Dfilm.mpg it's reproducable most of the time, just jump around. If SM is off it doesn't happen at 60hz. At 48 and 50hz the glitches happen at 72 and 75 the glitches don't happen.


Is there already a bug entry in the tracker for this? If not, could you please create one? I don't have time for madVR at the moment. So this problem will get lost and forgotten if you don't add it to the tracker.

There isn't, I brought it up here because of a good chance that it might be something only I'm experiencing, like so many things in the past. I'll add it to the bugtracker if others experience the same thing. Do they?

I'm also experiencing random slow motion when ivtcing 59 to 23. No dropped frames or cadence breaks and the only way to get it back to normal speed is to seek or pause/play. If I rewatch where slow motion first started it plays fine. Anyone else experiencing this?

[DD51]

thanks for the replies guys...

My apologies for not stating my equipment.
CPU 3570K
Display is 1080p (projector JVC RS45)
Videocard is HD7770
MadVR settings:
Chroma upscaling: NNED13 - 16 neurons
Image doubling: all ticked
Image Upscaling: Jinc 3 taps- AARF ticked and so isscale-in linear light
Image downscaling: Catmull-Rom AARF ticked only
Smooth motion: enabled - middle one selected

1080p files play super smooth no problems whatsover.
I'll try remuxing the files to see of that works.

anything else I can check?

thank you again...

[Anime Viewer]

thanks for the replies guys...

Image doubling: all ticked
1080p files play super smooth no problems whatsover.
I'll try remuxing the files to see of that works.

anything else I can check?

thank you again...

Having everything checked for image doubling is where I think your problem lies. Many people (including myself) automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked. Try with only the Luma double checked and see if it runs without dropped frames.

Since your default resolution of 1080 and the 1080 file match there is no doubling occurring, so that would be why you don't see it occurring with 1080 files.

[DD51]

Having everything checked for image doubling is where I think your problem lies. Many people (including myself) automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked. Try with only the Luma double checked and see if it runs without dropped frames.

Since your default resolution of 1080 and the 1080 file match there is no doubling occurring, so that would be why you don't see it occurring with 1080 files.

OMG...thank you sooo much Anime Viewer...no more dropped frames :thanks:

I cannot begin to tell you how long I've had this problem and I practically tried everything!
I guess I didn't!!!!

A super big thanks again.

[jkauff]

OMG...thank you sooo much Anime Viewer...no more dropped frames :thanks:

I cannot begin to tell you how long I've had this problem and I practically tried everything!
I guess I didn't!!!!
Are you using profiles for doubling? My profile for 1080p content uses no doubling at all, since it's unneeded unless you have a TV or other display that is larger than 1920x1080.

[Asmodian]

thanks for the replies guys...

My apologies for not stating my equipment.
CPU 3570K
Display is 1080p (projector JVC RS45)
Videocard is HD7770
MadVR settings:
Chroma upscaling: NNED13 - 16 neurons
Image doubling: all ticked
Image Upscaling: Jinc 3 taps- AARF ticked and so isscale-in linear light
Image downscaling: Catmull-Rom AARF ticked only
Smooth motion: enabled - middle one selected

1080p files play super smooth no problems whatsover.
I'll try remuxing the files to see of that works.

anything else I can check?

thank you again...

I have never seen someone recommend linear light for image upscaling but I do prefer it for downscaling. You seem to have them set backwards? AARF? You mean Anti Ringing (AR, always good)?

If you want to try doubling try it without NNEDI3 chroma scaling. I prefer Jinc3 chroma + NNEDI3 32 luma doubling to NNEDI3 16 chroma + no luma doubling (Jinc3 image) but the first does take more GPU power than the second.

Having everything checked for image doubling is where I think your problem lies. Many people (including myself) automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked. Try with only the Luma double checked and see if it runs without dropped frames.

Since your default resolution of 1080 and the 1080 file match there is no doubling occurring, so that would be why you don't see it occurring with 1080 files.

A lot of people seem to be confused how these work. It isn't that you "automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked" it is that chroma doubling is twice as hard as luma doubling and it all adds up (also chroma doubling doesn't help quality very much). Watch your average render times and keep them below the movie frame interval. Ctrl-J is your friend and the change in the "average render time" stat tells you the exact cost of different options with whatever resolution is currently playing. Don't simply start ticking all the NNEDI3 options; remember NNEDI3 is for punishing video cards. ;)

Are you using profiles for doubling? My profile for 1080p content uses no doubling at all, since it's unneeded unless you have a TV or other display that is larger than 1920x1080.

It wouldn't matter if you turned it on for 1080p displayed at 1080p, even if set to "always" madVR will not double if no scaling needs to be done.

[StinDaWg]

Take a step back and look at the bigger picture, in this case usability: Ideally you want to just playback some content without having to worry about which cadence it has. It should be madVR's job, only, to worry about such things. Why would you have to force madVR into film mode? Why does madVR not detect such things itself and switch everything around accordingly? The reason for that is that I've simply not implemented film vs video detection for interlaced content yet. But at some point I plan to.

Now let's look at 720p50/60 content: For this I don't have to detect film vs. video, I just have to detect the underlying cadence and that already tells me everything I need to do. So decimating 720p50/60 content is much easier than handling unknown interlaced content.

Basically, madVR could already be able *right now* to automatically handle any 720p50/60 content and decimate whatever needs to be decimated. So you could enable madVR decimation for progressive content and you'd never ever have to disable it again. E.g. consider watching TV broadcasts in real time: There'll be a movie (3:2 frame cadence), then there'll be some ads (maybe 3:2, or 2:2, or 1:1 frame cadence). madVR's cadence detection should auto detect all that and can then throw away just the duplicate frames. The nice thing is that everything could be done automatically.

However, here comes the catch: There's a chance that the cadence could change back and forth multiple times in a short time period, e.g. from one advertisement spot to the next. We do not really want madVR to switch refresh rates all the time when that happens, do we? So running at 60Hz makes some sense because it can handle any cadence, and smooth motion takes take of 3:2 content, too.

Of course I understand that if you know for a fact that your content is really film only, and every part of it is 3:2 cadence, then there's no need to use 60Hz and you can simply use 23Hz instead. But this once again requires your input: You need to tell madVR that you know that the content is straight 23Hz all the way through. Maybe I should add an option for that. But for the majority of users, letting madVR do everything automatically is preferable, and that's why currently I'm staying at 60Hz.
Ya, I'm sure once you implement film vs video detection things will be a little easier to figure out for the user. Right now I just force film on everything and switch to video mode via keyboard shortcut when I occasionally have a true interlaced video.

+1 on adding a "force film" type option for progressive content like you have for deinterlacing. All of the shows I watch already have commercials cut, so it's a 3:2 cadence the entire time.

[DD51]

I have never seen someone recommend linear light for image upscaling but I do prefer it for downscaling. You seem to have them set backwards? AARF? You mean Anti Ringing (AR, always good)?

If you want to try doubling try it without NNEDI3 chroma scaling. I prefer Jinc3 chroma + NNEDI3 32 luma doubling to NNEDI3 16 chroma + no luma doubling (Jinc3 image) but the first does take more GPU power than the second.

Thank you for correcting my settings. I have made the necessary adjustments MadVR.

[seiyafan]

I cannot tell any difference between nearest neighbor and NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling, but the difference between them for luma doubling is noticeable.

[SecurityBunny]

I believe I have found an issue with the new windowed mode.

Randomly half way through watching a video, the render queue drops to half of the present queue. Playback starts fine, all queues fill up, no dropped frames, rendering is ~27ms for 23.976 playback. At random, usually after some minutes, the video playback glitches. If you are using ReClock, audio starts to pop constantly and frames drop until you pause the video. The render queue was playing at 19-20/20, but drops to 7-8/20. I have tried raising and lowering all queue sizes, but seems to always drop to half of what the 'frames in advance' is set to. Pausing and starting video playback again refills the queues to the full values, but it drops again after some time. Occurs with and without ReClock. (Currently not using ReClock.)

I should also note that the rendering ms stats begin to slowly climb upward when the render queue is bugged at 7-8/20. For me, it began at 27ms, but climbed upwards to 40ms before I stopped and restarted the video.

Switching to fullscreen exclusive mode, this bug does not occur and the render queue remains full all the time.

MPC-HC 1.7.4.15
Nvidia Driver 337.61
MadVR 0.87.10
Display: 2560x1440
Windows 8.1

MadVR Settings.
No 'trade quality for performance' options.
No 'general settings' options.
CPU queue 24, GPU queue 20.
Windowed mode, 16 frames in advance.
Smooth motion 'only if...'
ED2 dithering with both options checked.
Debanding medium/high.
NNEDI3 32 / NNEDI3 32 luma double / Jinc3 AR / Catmull-Rom AR LL

I have also noticed that if the CPU and GPU queue are the same size, the 'render queue' will be one number off.

Example with CPU queue 20, GPU queue 20, frames in advance 16.

decoder queue: 19-20/20
upload queue 19-20/20
render queue 18-19/20
present queue 15-16/16


Example with CPU queue 24, GPU queue 20, frames in advance 16.

decoder queue: 23-24/24
upload quieue 19-20/20
render queue 19-20/20
present queue 15-16/16

[Sm3n]

Hi folks,

I'd like to understand something.

Sometimes madVR gives me lot of dropped frames but not with all videos, but mostly with 1080i HDTV MPEG. madVR is set with high values. I can easely play full bluray, 1080p or upscaled 720p without any drop or delay! So what's the deal with HDTV interlaced (ts) files?
I thought it was the last update of madVR, so I downgrade. Same thing. I also downgrade LAV filter etc. Nothing.

For exemple, last week I've been able to watch a certain show, but this week it's dropping.

Cheers

[huhn]

Hi folks,

I'd like to understand something.

Sometimes madVR gives me lot of dropped frames but not with all videos, but mostly with 1080i HDTV MPEG. madVR is set with high values. I can easely play full bluray, 1080p or upscaled 720p without any drop or delay! So what's the deal with HDTV interlaced (ts) files?
I thought it was the last update of madVR, so I downgrade. Same thing. I also downgrade LAV filter etc. Nothing.

For exemple, last week I've been able to watch a certain show, but this week it's dropping.

Cheers

you provide very little informations. no hardware spec at all.

but still 1080p29i is very very hard because this is normally played at 60 fps with deinterlacing, a normal 1080p23 BD is a joke compared to this.

you need rendertimes below 16 ms to run MadVR with 60 fps.

[Sm3n]

you provide very little informations. no hardware spec at all.

Yeah, sure:

- Nvidia GTX 670
- i7 3770K @4.34 GHz
- 16 GB ram

I'm running on windows 8.1 x64, with MPC-HC, k-lite codec pack (LAV filters for video), madVR, Autofrequency, Reclock, Avisynth MT. x86 version for all programs.

you need rendertimes below 16 ms to run MadVR with 60 fps.
What do you mean by "rendertimes below 16 ms"?

[vivan]

What do you mean by "rendertimes below 16 ms"?average rendering time in OSD (Ctrl+J).
If there're 60 frames per second - then each frame should be rendered faster than 1/60 = 0.0166 s = 16.6 ms.