madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[tp4tissue]

Thanks huhn, this program is indeed very convenient :D

How does changing the colorspace work ? What does it do, does it report it to the TV ?

[huhn]

i guess so samsung doesn't seem to support it correctly so i can not test.

[PirateIce]

Hi, I use colorcontrol a bit, and I blieve the colorspace is the encoding the monitor expects, so it works the other way usually, the monitor EDID or monitor driver tells windows which to use. Pretty much the only cases for that not being RGB is if you have color profiles installed for wide gamut or are using HDR, and maybe a weird apple monitor that uses the nonstandard RGB options. For madvr playback in DCI-P3 you only need to set DCI-P3 in madvr and select your monitors wide gamut profile directly on the monitor.

[Asmodian]

Hi, I use colorcontrol a bit, and I blieve the colorspace is the encoding the monitor expects, so it works the other way usually, the monitor EDID or monitor driver tells windows which to use.

This cannot be true, because Windows does not know how to render to anything but sRGB (in SDR). It cannot be told to render to another colorspace.

The displays with an "auto" color mode are supposed to switch, but I don't know of any that support it properly. They probably exist, but colorspace is still surprisingly badly handled across devices.

[huhn]

it's resyncing but the result is the same this is clearly an HDMI flag.

the madVR report bt2020 doesn't work here to that nearly for sure the same things and this is the first screen where it does not work currently.

[Sunspark]

I think most everything can switch between YCbCr and RGB for a long time now. So it's probably just the newer spaces that are an issue.

@flossy_cake 2 settings I use that I suggest you try, in General Advanced, turn IT Content to disable. It's a processing feature e.g. video, text, etc. based on what it thinks you're looking at. The other setting is in Colour Advanced, turn YCbCr on. It will change the ramp. I personally think it looks better than the RGB default setting. It's fine because I use chroma 4:4:4 on the monitor so it is equivalent to RGB with only subtle differences in processing and appearance.

[huhn]

ycbcr and rgb are a massive different with a massive lossy processing step. this is presentation not high bit deep processor don't forget that.
madVR is also allways RGB

[NeonPhoenix]

Hey guys, I'm using MadVR beta 209 or something similar with MPC-HC at highest possible settings on my Windows 10 PC. In every movie I play, either the sound comes before the video or the video comes after the sound—I'm not sure which is correct. So basicly there is audio sync issue. I do not want to add the delay manually because sometimes there is 500 ms delay and sometimes there is no delay so adding a fixed delay wont fix my issue. I'd like to show my settings but I can not upload images here. How can I fix this?

[ryrynz]

Hey guys, I'm using MadVR beta 209 or something similar with MPC-HC at highest possible settings

Stated your problem right from the start, dial back your settings, they're way too high.

[Siso]

I'm wondering why I can achieve perfect playback - no frame drops, delayed frames and presentation glitches with D3D11 in madvr and in lav video decoder the movies are played at 120 fps. (using present frames in advance - 3). When I try D3D9 in madvr with backbuffers of 3 with dxva2cp in lav video decoder - I get 1 delayed frame...Refresh rate of the monitor is 120hz (119.99hz in madvr) the movies are played at 24 fps in combination with reclock in wasapi exclusive mode.

[tp4tissue]

ycbcr and rgb are a massive different with a massive lossy processing step. this is presentation not high bit deep processor don't forget that.
madVR is also allways RGB

Outputting 422 from nvidia seems to default to CEA (limited) and ycc709.

Does that mean it always goes through the lossy step?

[huhn]

madVR can't do ycbcr so it is always lossy and nvidia defaults to limited with HDTV resolution and uses full with PC resolution i don't know why.

[NeonPhoenix]

Stated your problem right from the start, dial back your settings, they're way too high.

My render time is around 22 ms so I do not want to lower my settings. It's just downscaling to 2k from 4k anyways.

[NeonPhoenix]

Stated your problem right from the start, dial back your settings, they're way too high.

Can I show you my settings on discord please?

[ryrynz]

Can I show you my settings on discord please?

Just upload a screenshot of the file playing that has the audio lag with the stats screen up to an image host and paste the link here.

[tp4tissue]

madVR can't do ycbcr so it is always lossy and nvidia defaults to limited with HDTV resolution and uses full with PC resolution i don't know why.

Nvidia is so trash. :scared:

[huhn]

so nvidia is trash for having a refreshrate page and amd is not for not having it?

[tp4tissue]

so nvidia is trash for having a refreshrate page and amd is not for not having it?

I can page refreshrate on AMD with addons like HRC.

But Some of the Nvidia problems as you've mentioned are unfixable. :rolleyes:

[Sunspark]

RGB to YCbCr 4:4:4 conversion and vice versa is lossless from a mathematical perspective. You can convert back and forth, in math. What does happen is that rounding errors can accrue when working with lower bit depths like 8, so in the real world you cannot do conversions back and forth forever. RGB can sometimes look a little "harsh" I find. I am not saying for everyone to use it, I am just saying that it can be worth looking at to compare how it is if one is already having an issue with RGB output. Perhaps it will be processed differently by the driver or display panel. If it results in a better picture, then why not? It only takes a second to compare.

[tp4tissue]

If it results in a better picture, then why not? It only takes a second to compare.

I don't think we can see a difference Sunspark, and without a reference device, we have no idea what it's suppose to look like.

My personal complaint is only that the video driver UI makes these settings confusing and non transparent. The TV also goes through its own set of "whatever it wants." I highly doubt we can achieve bit perfect end to end. The fact that we need to use colorimeters in the first place attests to that. :D

As for your perception of Harsh, what I notice is that on some textures for example 422 can cause more noise, and have a sharpening effect. Things like this on specific surfaces can cause weird anomalies.

I thought about this alot, and you'd think some guy goes over every frame of the movie, and make sure it all looks right, and as intended. But from my research this is not how it's done. The colorist's job is really just to eyeball it. He has tools, the scope, the waveform, etc. But he's eyeballing it, and he has limited focus/ time to do it. So I think the expectation of mathematical perfection, the right texture color, the right blacks, it's all mostly in our heads. No such perfection exists, as no such perfection is even possible.

[huhn]

RGB to YCbCr 4:4:4 conversion and vice versa is lossless from a mathematical perspective. You can convert back and forth, in math. What does happen is that rounding errors can accrue when working with lower bit depths like 8, so in the real world you cannot do conversions back and forth forever. RGB can sometimes look a little "harsh" I find. I am not saying for everyone to use it, I am just saying that it can be worth looking at to compare how it is if one is already having an issue with RGB output. Perhaps it will be processed differently by the driver or display panel. If it results in a better picture, then why not? It only takes a second to compare.

because it is mathematically impossible to do lossless while keeping the same precision. 16 bit is not enough
you are just adding noise to the image and that's it in the bested of best cases.
with is objectively worse.

there is no processing by the driver we know RGB is not touched by nvidia.

[Octo-puss]

I vaguely remember asking about any new development around madVR several years ago and being told there were new builds on a completely different site, but that's about it.
Can anyone fast forward me to present state of events please? Apparently, madshi doesn't even come here anymore, so I guess newer madVR is to be found elsewhere?

[huhn]

https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
smooth motion flickers or worse in this version.

there is pretty much no development anymore.
some tone mapping changes barely anyone responses to and regression like this.

[Siso]

there is pretty much no development anymore.
some tone mapping changes barely anyone responses to and regression like this.

The alternatives are not good...

[SamuriHL]

While I realize this is the madvr thread, I completely disagree with the "alternatives are not good" statement. JRVR works very well, as an example.

[Siso]

While I realize this is the madvr thread, I completely disagree with the "alternatives are not good" statement. JRVR works very well, as an example.

If you buy it. :)

[SamuriHL]

It's still an alternative.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using Tapatalk

[dbezerra]

MPV also has an excellent tone mapping - and very similar (if not equal) to JRVR since they both use LibPlacebo.

[tp4tissue]

MPV also has an excellent tone mapping - and very similar (if not equal) to JRVR since they both use LibPlacebo.

I'm very thankful for madshi saving old monitors and bridging the initial wave of non-hdr devices.

Very confused that they decided tonemapping was to remain their headline feature, when the whole point of the hardware side improvements is to make tonemapping obsolete. So it's like working against the current by investing so much into that function. :eek:

Then, without actual low level control of the tv hardware, what are you actually doing, didn't madvr come to be because we didn't like bad renderers making a mess of the data, but now, you're making a mess of the data, because the hardware is not expecting these curves injected into the pipeline.

[mzso]

https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
smooth motion flickers or worse in this version.

there is pretty much no development anymore.
some tone mapping changes barely anyone responses to and regression like this.

Yeah, but older versions have a water mark, a long way back.

[PirateIce]

This cannot be true, because Windows does not know how to render to anything but sRGB (in SDR). It cannot be told to render to another colorspace.

The displays with an "auto" color mode are supposed to switch, but I don't know of any that support it properly. They probably exist, but colorspace is still surprisingly badly handled across devices.

I didnt mean anything else but encoding format, not actual colorspace change.

[PirateIce]

Let me try to focus on what I understand better
"Hi, I use colorcontrol a bit, and I believe the colorspace control is NOTHING as Asmodian confirms, my conjecture about some use must be meaningless. Now I say the part that Asmodian repeated like new, For madvr playback in DCI-P3 you only need to set DCI-P3 in madvr and select your monitors wide gamut profile directly on the monitor, NOT in colorcontrol. AKA what asmodian said"

[tp4tissue]

My tv ignores the pc's colorspace settings entirely. So, samsung be samsung.

[flossy_cake]

I'll be upgrading to a HDR TV at some point... am I correct in understanding that if I'm using Windows 10 and a NVidia 3060, I will NOT be able to count on reliable autoswitching of the video mode to HDR when playing HDR files due to issues with NVidia driver / Windows 10 / madVR? :thanks:

[ryrynz]

I'll be upgrading to a HDR TV at some point... am I correct in understanding that if I'm using Windows 10 and a NVidia 3060, I will NOT be able to count on reliable autoswitching of the video mode to HDR when playing HDR files due to issues with NVidia driver / Windows 10 / madVR? :thanks:

I have a 3060 on W11 and mine works perfectly. If W10 is an issue why not just upgrade to 11? 10 is a dead duck.

[Siso]

Win 10 is more stable than win 11, especially for madvr.

[clsid]

The old stable Madvr build actually has a bug on W11 where on some systems the device list in Madvr settings gets duplicates and HDR toggle does not work properly as a result. That was fixed in the betas.

[Siso]

The old stable Madvr build actually has a bug on W11 where on some systems the device list in Madvr settings gets duplicates and HDR toggle does not work properly as a result. That was fixed in the betas.

With betas 112 and 113?

[huhn]

yes this is also reported on win 10 but much more rarely.

[flossy_cake]

I have a 3060 on W11 and mine works perfectly. If W10 is an issue why not just upgrade to 11? 10 is a dead duck.

Thanks.

And I'll just comment that Windows 7 has been a "dead duck" for much longer and I've still been using it all these years without issue.

The issue is now that application developers are now actively updating their apps to be incompatible with Windows 7, eg. Steam, Firefox, Brave, Dolphin, Logitech keyboard/mouse software, motherboard drivers, GPU drivers.

This is the only reason I will be upgrading to Windows 10. I see no reason to upgrade to 11, although I'm sure Microsoft will start forcing that at some point, probably through forced obsolescence of certain software packages which will be artificially restricted to libraries that are artificially made to only run on Windows 11. This is why I'll be dual booting Linux, and the Linux market share is now at 4% globally, up from 2% two years ago. This is massive growth and I can't wait till Windows itself becomes a dead duck :)

[ryrynz]

Win 10 is more stable than win 11, especially for madvr.I love how people throw around the word stability when they have no idea about what's causing any issues they have in the first place. Zero issues here, thread is dead, womp womp.

[tp4tissue]

I love how people throw around the word stability when they have no idea about what's causing any issues they have in the first place. Zero issues here, thread is dead, womp womp.

I froze my movie build at windows 10, 1809, and madvr 113.

It's got everything I need, no gimps, very little telemetry. :devil:

Thread's not dead, our Huhn is still on patrol, helping pilgrims get to the promised land.

@ flossy_cake, If you get samsung oled tv, beware 144hz mode has undefeatable black crush. 120hz works perfect, perfect gamma tracking possible.

[ryrynz]

Thread's not dead, our Huhn is still on patrol, helping pilgrims get to the promised land.


For how long tho, seems he's growing weary to put it lightly.

[htnut]

Searching around, I see discussions about MadVR not switching off HDR mode, for example when it's playing an HDR movie and then an SDR special feature is queued up - the colors are blown out.

I'm having this issue under W10 on multiple machines.

Is there a keyboard shortcut that will change MadVR's HDR mode "on the fly"?

Thanks.

[magic144]

does anybody know how to export/import profile group definitions from one device to another

i've just realized I have a few important things defined e.g. display refresh rate switching, custom properties conditionals, etc... but if my display device ever changes, how can I export/re-import those definitions (under the new device)? - all the settings seem to be contained in a non-human-friendly binary blob either in registry or settings.bin, and there doesn't seem to be an obvious way to copy/paste items between display groups

[ryrynz]

Searching around, I see discussions about MadVR not switching off HDR mode, for example when it's playing an HDR movie and then an SDR special feature is queued up - the colors are blown out.

Is there a keyboard shortcut that will change MadVR's HDR mode "on the fly"?


I've had the odd time HDR mode has stayed active for whatever reason, not enough for it to be a problem though. There is no shortcut for anything relating to HDR mode in MadVR.

[SirMaster]

Thanks.

And I'll just comment that Windows 7 has been a "dead duck" for much longer and I've still been using it all these years without issue.

The issue is now that application developers are now actively updating their apps to be incompatible with Windows 7, eg. Steam, Firefox, Brave, Dolphin, Logitech keyboard/mouse software, motherboard drivers, GPU drivers.

This is the only reason I will be upgrading to Windows 10. I see no reason to upgrade to 11, although I'm sure Microsoft will start forcing that at some point, probably through forced obsolescence of certain software packages which will be artificially restricted to libraries that are artificially made to only run on Windows 11. This is why I'll be dual booting Linux, and the Linux market share is now at 4% globally, up from 2% two years ago. This is massive growth and I can't wait till Windows itself becomes a dead duck :)

I recommend moving to Windows 10 Enterprise IoT LTSC 2021 which is supported until 2032. It's a great OS for madVR HTPC.

[Siso]

I recommend moving to Windows 10 Enterprise IoT LTSC 2021 which is supported until 2032. It's a great OS for madVR HTPC.

What about everyday use and htpc altogether?

[SirMaster]

What about everyday use and htpc altogether?

Well if you like Windows 10 then yeah, there is nothing bad or wrong about it.

[Siso]

Well if you like Windows 10 then yeah, there is nothing bad or wrong about it.

Sounds good!:thanks: