madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ForceX]

suggests weak GPU?
Yes. You MIGHT get it to work if you disable all color correction and dithering and use bicubic scalers, but in that case you're better off using MPC-HCs EVR CP instead.

[ryrynz]

When I was using older versions of madvr I liked when the 3dlut was enabled.
How I configure this now?
I don't have any calibration experience neither hardware nor software ,
I think this new yCMS feature is Overkill for 99% of madvr users.


I'll quote Madshi for this.

With older madVR versions you could activate a 3dlut, but without a meter yCMS just performed some rather simple conversions. These simple conversions are now performed by madVR instead in real time via pixel shaders in the same quality. So with newer madVR versions using yCMS doesn't bring any benefit, anymore, if you don't have a meter. From now on yCMS is only for people who have a meter (or who know the exact primary coordinates of their display).

So to sum up:

If you don't have a meter, don't use yCMS. There's no need to. madVR does all that you need in the same quality.

If you do have a meter, use yCMS to calibrate/optimize your display.

yCMS isn't overkill it's what many would consider necessary for optimal quality. You must remember that MadVR is made for a set of users that wish to have accurate colors and quality resizing and thus yCMS falls into the scope of this project.
Only by better understanding yCMS could you appreciate what it has to offer.

[madshi]

Hey guys, complete noob with colour here.

Can I ask a few questions out of curiousity?
- Are you meant to calibrate your display so that it displays a superset of colour, measure it and feed into yCMS, then madVR will adjust the output colour depending on the source content?
i.e. What is the actual process to use madVR/yCMS effectively?
Yes, basically you display a few test patterns (showing specific colors), measure them with a meter, and then provide the measurement results to yCMS. yCMS will then calculate a "correction" file, called "3dlut", which madVR will then use to improve output quality.

madVR adjusts the output color depending on the source content in any case, even if you don't use yCMS. The purpose of yCMS is to repair anything which might be wrong with your display (and which can technically be repaired by software).

[Skwelcha]

Hi,
I have two questions:

First question:
My Toshiba 42XV635 only supports 24,50 & 60hz, so i set madvr to either use 1080p50 or 1080p60. When i play a video with 23.976 fps, madvr choses 1080p60 as the frequenz, but shouldnt be 1080p50 the better choice? i mean the multiply of 23,976 is nearer to 50 than to 60hz.

Seconed question:
If i set my ATI 5670 GPU with 11.5 CCC to Full RGB 4:4:4 output, my Toshiba 42XV635 sets himself to limited RGB 16-235 in the auto mode and even if i force the TV to use full RGB 0-255, testvideos with black cliping in 0-16 from avs show me that it's still no full RGB... Does anyone has an idea why it's still limited and a way to get real 0-255 output ?

thx in advance

[namaiki]

First question:
My Toshiba 42XV635 only supports 24,50 & 60hz, so i set madvr to either use 1080p50 or 1080p60. When i play a video with 23.976 fps, madvr choses 1080p60 as the frequenz, but shouldnt be 1080p50 the better choice? i mean the multiply of 23,976 is nearer to 50 than to 60hz.

Why don't you use 24Hz? That would be the ultimate best choice.

[Skwelcha]

hmm i thought a good multiply of it would make it more gentle for the eyes, I mean it should have a reason that it is a 100hz LCD

[Mark_A_W]

It should take that 24 fps and display it at 96hz.

[Skwelcha]

the GPU or the Display?

[namaiki]

the GPU or the Display?

Set the GPU for 24Hz and in the display is a chip to bring it up to 100Hz or so.

[Skwelcha]

alright, that would answer my first question, how about the second? I read some people here had a similiar problem, but as far as i remember they had'nt an option for HDMI full and limited RGB, so i dont see why it just wont work in FULL RGB... The only way i got the cliping test vid to work with 0-16 Black, is when i set the LCD to limited rgb and madvr to TV levels... but that doesnt seem right?

[namaiki]

So, what if you set your LCD to Full and madVR to PC levels? Also, make sure to disable any such dynamic contrast option.

[Qaq]

Skwelcha, so you've set HDMI to FullRGB and still have clipped B&W? How about to change Black level in TV's Color menu?

[Skwelcha]

@ namaiki, that doesnt help, and the only thing i activated is the 100hz technology. I Still doent get 0-16 in the clipping vid. The onl thing that changes if i set the LCD to Full RGB is that the Black gets brighter, but even with that i cant see 0-16 in the clipping vid

@ Qaq, yes,i dont get the clipping with Full rgb, but i will check that with the black level

I tried many configurations, but like i said, the only way to get the clipping is HDMI set to limited RGB and madvr to TV- levels.

EDIT: raising the black level doesnt help either.

if it's any help, here's the manual in english, on Page 46 u can find the RGB Range settings.
http://www.toshiba-om.net/LCD/lcdtcp_download.php?country=de&language=en&model=ZV635&screensize_inch=37&department=LCD

[Andy o]

Just to be clear, when you have madVR set up "right", 0-16 should not be visible. What do you see in the pattern when you have madVR set to PC levels, pixel format on CCC to RGB Full, and your display input to Full RGB?

[Skwelcha]

When all is set to PC/Full RGB It's just black no matter what i do. i dont get what u mean with it shouldn't be visible? As far as i know u should configure your brightness level etc. low enough that u wont see these clippings in 0-16, BUT u should see them if u turn the brightness high enough... At least that's what it said in the tutorial i saw.

[Andy o]

No, it depends on where you're doing the expansion. In this case madVR is doing it, so you should not see anything below 16 or above 235. If you can see from 16 to 235, you're all set.

btw, which tutorial? I don't think you need to do the expansion with the brightness slider anymore with most modern displays. They will either accept a full RGB signal ("PC levels"), or clip below 16 automatically.

[Skwelcha]

hmmmmmm so you're saying i should force him to use full rgb und set madvr back to pc levels right? but why is my LCD setting himself to limited in the automatic mode? I would say it believs it gets a limited rgb signal.

[Andy o]

I don't know, but that has been known to happen. You'll have to set manually to full RGB in your LCD for max quality with madVR, and at the same time keep your other PC applications at max quality.

[Skwelcha]

alright, than i will set it back to PC levels and Full RGB. Still weird, i was setting my LCD up like in this tutorial( http://revision3.com/hdnation/calibratepart2 ) and the Guy in Blue said if u can't see the clippng from 0 to 16 your Range is set wrong... But i don't know enough about Color Ranges to say he's right or it's just a different thing between bluray player(like the guy in the tut uses) and PC output.

anyway, thanks much for help

[Budtz]

Is anything like this http://www.tested.com/news/how-to-enable-motion-interpolation-on-your-movie-files/329/ possible with madvr. This guide states that hali render needs to be used. Will it work with madvr?

[Qaq]

but why is my LCD setting himself to limited in the automatic mode?
When I'm going to watch some video and set my TV to RGB, I got LimitedRGB also in most cases (not always though). I mean, I got Black level: Low (16-235). I just set it to High - bingo! it's FullRGB HDMI input now. I've made special Cinema profile in my TV for watching video (and have to force Black level to High each time I'm selecting to it).

[noee]

Is anything like this http://www.tested.com/news/how-to-enable-motion-interpolation-on-your-movie-files/329/ possible with madvr. This guide states that hali render needs to be used. Will it work with madvr?

Yeah, it works. Looks funny on film, IMO.

[Andy o]

alright, than i will set it back to PC levels and Full RGB. Still weird, i was setting my LCD up like in this tutorial( http://revision3.com/hdnation/calibratepart2 ) and the Guy in Blue said if u can't see the clippng from 0 to 16 your Range is set wrong... But i don't know enough about Color Ranges to say he's right or it's just a different thing between bluray player(like the guy in the tut uses) and PC output.

anyway, thanks much for help

There are some differences with what we are doing here. They're testing with a blu-ray player, which only plays video. So setting up your brightness to crush anything below 16 is an alternate way to do it. For video, it doesn't matter cause there's nothing below 16 anyway. I don't agree that it's the best way (thus I don't agree that the player is "set wrong" if you see nothing below 16). If you do that, your TV is receiving Full RGB, but crushing blacks and clipping whites. If you have Full RGB content on another device, like games on a PS3 or a connection to a PC, then those will be crushed/clipped. Also you can see when they adjust contrast, the TV even at its maximum contrast setting doesn't clip above 235, and instead distorts the color (you can see the bars turn reddish).

I think if your video devices allow it, they should be set to output Full RGB (i.e. do the expansion itself, like we've set madVR and the ATI card to do), and then let the display receive full RGB. Or, if your TV allows it, let it set limited RGB for limited signals, and Full RGB for full signals.

[Mr Alpha]

They have a HTPC GPU roundup over at Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4380/discrete-htpc-gpus-shootout), and they are using madVR as part of the benchmarks. :)

[Skwelcha]

@ andy o,

ok, ccc is still on full rgb, madvr on pc levels and the LCD on forced full rgb. to let the tv decide if he should output limited or full rgb depending on the content won't work, cause like i said in the "auto" mode he always choses limited. Guess it's a bug or something like that.

[noee]

They have a HTPC GPU roundup over at Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4380/discrete-htpc-gpus-shootout), and they are using madVR as part of the benchmarks. :)

Yeah, speaks volumes that madshi and nev are getting press, and maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the reviewer seems to imply that nev's CUVID decoder (or some other h/w decoder) is required for madVR usage.

His vague reference to "AMD and Intel in the future" with madVR seems to imply that madVR does not work on that h/w today. In addition, I just disagree with his somewhat vague statement that "madVR requires a very powerful GPU for it's function". I guess, relative to cards of 3 or 4 generations ago, that statement would make sense, but certainly not in today's world.

[nevcairiel]

Very powerful GPU for a HTPC, at least. :p

[cyberbeing]

They have a HTPC GPU roundup over at Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4380/discrete-htpc-gpus-shootout), and they are using madVR as part of the benchmarks. :)

madshi, would you be willing to share the madVR benchmark program you built for that Anandtech article?

I've been asking for a madVR benchmark for quite awhile now, and I'd be a shame if it could only be used by Anandtech, now that you've actually caved-in and built one.

[Xaurus]

Hello everyone,

I want to thank madshi for madvr, it is simply awesome!

Now, a few questions:

#1
0-255 in nvidia control panel, 0-255 in madvr, and then 0-255 on my display: is this correct?
I tried a couple of white level and black level 1080p videos and it seems good, can't seen anything below 17 or above 234.

#2
Should I check "use inverse telecine" in the nvidia control panel?

#3
Should I output as RGB or YCbCr444 in the nvidia control panel?

Best,
X

Using nvidia drivers 275.33 on a geforce 570 gtx on an intel core i7 980x at 4 ghz.

[CruNcher]

It's allways a pain to read Anandtech articles


Now, let us shift our focus to madVR. It is a renderer replacement for EVR, and can be downloaded here. Currently, madVR does not do deinterlacing, noise reduction, edge enhancement and other post processing steps by itself. These need to be done before the frame is presented to madVR for rendering. When using a DXVA decoder, these steps are enabled from the NVIDIA or AMD control panel settings. With the LAV CUVID decoder, we get the post processing steps as enabled in the drivers. The decoded frames are copied back to the system RAM for madVR to use.

[nevcairiel]

You seem to be missing the point of that line, its just saying that you get the same post-processing with LAV CUVID as you would with a DXVA decoder (well, as long as the DXVA processing option is turned on), a perfectly valid statement.

[Andy o]

If you guys have any questions, the guy who wrote that article hangs out at AVS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20560990#post20560990)

[Dogway]

Yes, basically you display a few test patterns (showing specific colors), measure them with a meter, and then provide the measurement results to yCMS. yCMS will then calculate a "correction" file, called "3dlut", which madVR will then use to improve output quality.

I have a meter now Im very lost. I have my display calibrated, and use argyll to load, unload my profile.
I downloaded yCMS and created the 4 .3dlut files as described here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1402013#post1402013) for working with madVR. For that I didnt need any colorimeter, but any of the files are accepted by madVR even I used the templates yCMS comes with.

You say I need to use my colorimeter to measure some test patterns, do you mean the madTestPatternSource patterns? How do I measure that? Which software? Then I need to provide the measurements to yCMS, do you mean the measures and format of the examples in this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1402014#post1402014)? if so, Id still need 4 .3dlut files, while in madVR Im only allowed to load one.
At last I dont understand in the madVR options it says, "calibrate this display by using yCMS", do you mean my monitor display (already calibrated) or the video display? When I select it a yCMS tab is enabled, I go there while my meter plugged, hit edit, and program freezes up.

Thanks for the help

[madshi]

@Dogway, for yCMS questions please use the yCMS thread. However, you see the program freezes up. Which program do you mean? If you mean the madVR settings dialog, that would be a madVR issue, not a yCMS issue, so that would belong into this thread.

[madshi]

0-255 in nvidia control panel, 0-255 in madvr, and then 0-255 on my display: is this correct?
Sounds correct to me.

Should I check "use inverse telecine" in the nvidia control panel?
Yes, I'd say so.

Should I output as RGB or YCbCr444 in the nvidia control panel?
RGB.

[/noah/]

hello, i currently encounter weird behavior with madVR. I have a dual display, with a 60Hz flat panel for windows desktop, and a 50Hz projector for movies. When using exclusive mode, and while watching a movie on the 50Hz projector, the first step (windowed-->exclusive) is ok, but the second one (exclusive-->windowed) leads to a modification of the refresh rate, from 50Hz to 60Hz.

I then have to manually modify the frequency in the graphic card driver.

Since my 60Hz flat panel is the primary display, i've tried to switch, and declare the projector as the primary, but with no effects (i thought it could be a kind of contagion effect).

Is it a known bug ? Any solution ?

I've noticed that the stats were much better in exclusive mode, what are the visual impacts of these stats ? Since i cannot have the exclusive mode to work properly, i did not test it extensively.

For the record, madVR works almost perfectly at home, with a Athlon II x4 and an IGP (HD 4250, embedded in the 880G). For SD contents, i can use all the availabe options, even spline 4 taps. Nevertheless, for HD contents, i have to stick with bilinear resizing (mostly downscaling, so it's ok, when needed, FFDshow still works). And on my very own setup, it's the only renderer that provide me with quality (strange bug with haali) and no tearing (even d3d EVR produces awful tearing).

[Dogway]

its madVR questions, as far as the questions are concerned to the madVR part of yCMS implementation. Im relying on what in yCMS thread is said to do for working with madVR and is not depicted in this thread.
Its not a strict freeze up. I hit edit, and I get 0.0 values for every channel, and everything is greyed out, still I can close the dialog box. I even reverted Argyll drivers to official spyder drivers, and (again) registered madTestPatternSource, just to see if I hit on the spot.

edit: In the meantime looks like an intensive reading on the yCMS thread, but its OK. I guess people use HCFR for measurements : /

[madshi]

hello, i currently encounter weird behavior with madVR. I have a dual display, with a 60Hz flat panel for windows desktop, and a 50Hz projector for movies. When using exclusive mode, and while watching a movie on the 50Hz projector, the first step (windowed-->exclusive) is ok, but the second one (exclusive-->windowed) leads to a modification of the refresh rate, from 50Hz to 60Hz.

I then have to manually modify the frequency in the graphic card driver.
Are you using the madVR display mode switching functionality? If not, try that. Maybe it works around the issue.

Its not a strict freeze up. I hit edit, and I get 0.0 values for every channel, and everything is greyed out, still I can close the dialog box. I even reverted Argyll drivers to official spyder drivers, and (again) registered madTestPatternSource, just to see if I hit on the spot.
When editing the yCMS data, madVR intentionally greys out all other controls. You can press Escape to exit edit mode. Or alternatively enter the proper values, then the "save" button gets clickable to save the numbers. You can "save" only if you edit proper numbers, though.

edit: In the meantime looks like an intensive reading on the yCMS thread, but its OK. I guess people use HCFR for measurements : /
That's the part you need to ask in the yCMS thread.

[/noah/]

Are you using the madVR display mode switching functionality? If not, try that. Maybe it works around the issue.

Do you mean the automatic switch between windowed and exclusive, in rendering/general settings ? If yes, it's already activated, but with no positive effect. Actually, isn't it the only avalaible option to use exclusive mode ? But maybe you refer to sth else ?

[madshi]

Do you mean the automatic switch between windowed and exclusive, in rendering/general settings ? If yes, it's already activated, but with no positive effect. Actually, isn't it the only avalaible option to use exclusive mode ? But maybe you refer to sth else ?
No, I mean the "display modes" subsection in the "devices" section of the madVR settings. There you can tell madVR to switch to a specific display mode / refresh rate for your projector. If you enter e.g. 1080p50 there, maybe the switch to 60Hz will go away.

[/noah/]

OK, i also tried to manually input 720p50 (hitachi tx200 inside), but with no effect. The switch is still there.

I have to try to set the projector as the sole display (since my tv actually does not support 50Hz rate).

[madshi]

The madVR settings dialog allows you to enter different display modes for different displays. So it doesn't matter whether your TV supports 50Hz or not, if you enter the 750p50 mode for your projector in the madVR settings.

If this all still doesn't help then I'd suggest trying to update to a newer GPU driver. There's not so much madVR can do here, I think.

[xvidivx]

I have some problem with madVR .
1. The value of dropped frames and delayed frames will increase after Windows auto-turn into screensaver or press Win+L by myself. The only way to stop it is to reopen MPC-HC. This problem has been found for a long time, not only happen in version 6.5.

2. Is there an OSD to show time message(like "00:01:09 / 01:45:09" on windows mode) on exclusive mode when I click seek bar?

Thanks.

[HTPC-User]

Hello!

After playing around with the ffdshow output/rgb conversion tab and different settings for TV/PC levels I come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter for madVR which rgb conversion settings are active in ffdshow. Am I right?
So the only setting which has to be identical/match is the PC/TV level setting in the graphics card driver and in madVR. Am I right?

But now I encounterd a weird behaviour:
My TV is set to 60Hz. But if I play a 60Hz clip (exclusive mode) madVR switches to 50Hz even if the TV is already set to 60Hz manually by me.
The display switch line is empty (I mean the resolution line 1080p25 etc), so automatic display change should be off.
Seems to be a bug as older madVR versions with the automatic change feature didn't show this if I remember me correctly. Or am I doing something wrong?

By the way, which naming convention has to be fulfilled to get the display changer working? Where do I have to define this modes to recall them via madVR?

:thanks:

[yesgrey]

Im relying on what in yCMS thread is said to do for working with madVR and is not depicted in this thread.
Those instructions are valid to all madVR versions up to v0.61. I need to add to that post instructions for v0.62+.

[/noah/]

The madVR settings dialog allows you to enter different display modes for different displays. So it doesn't matter whether your TV supports 50Hz or not, if you enter the 750p50 mode for your projector in the madVR settings.

If this all still doesn't help then I'd suggest trying to update to a newer GPU driver. There's not so much madVR can do here, I think.

Hello,

i think i was unclear, i have already tried to put the 720p50 resolution for the projector, but this did not solve my problem. I have also the latest catalyst driver. I guess the problem should be in the interaction between madVR and the graphics drivers. Therefore, i was curious to see if other people were actually facing the same kind of issue.

By the way, what are the benefits of the exclusive mode ?

[/noah/]

My TV is set to 60Hz. But if I play a 60Hz clip (exclusive mode) madVR switches to 50Hz even if the TV is already set to 60Hz manually by me.
The display switch line is empty (I mean the resolution line 1080p25 etc), so automatic display change should be off.
Seems to be a bug as older madVR versions with the automatic change feature didn't show this if I remember me correctly. Or am I doing something wrong?


hello, strange enough, i have the exact opposite issue, but i did not notice it was content fps related... Have you tried pal dvds or HD contents to check wether the switch was content related or not ? What is your graphic card ?

[fps]

By the way, what are the benefits of the exclusive mode ?
No tearing, better rendering times...

[/noah/]

No tearing, better rendering times...

what does "better rendering times" imply on the screen ?

[nevcairiel]

If i want to properly measure my display, should i use madVR running test pattern files, or preferably rather the HCFR internal patterns?
I would've thought using madVR to render the test pattern would be preferable so i already have my target environment, however i'm now unsure if madVR not already modifys the colors of the test files and throws off the measurements.