madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[madshi]

Jinc AR looks similar to Catmull-Rom with 4K to 1080, it's a little more natural I feel, it's a good downscaler it just suffers from the same softening effect that SSIM overcomes.
Then probably SSIM 2D is the right one for you. It's more or less a combination of Jinc + SSIM.

Is linear light recommended with downscaling generally? It certainly pumps up whites, I notice black text on white backgrounds seems to suffer some fading.. probably a bit hit and miss.
It should produce the most accurate results, so I generally recommend turning it on.

-------

nevcairiel just released a new nightly LAV build with:

Direct Blu-Ray 3D playback support

Currently limited to only support playing SSIF files directly. See his post here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1757466#post1757466

[aufkrawall]

Look at the ends of the crates..
True, but they often look too aliased to me with SSIM.
I feel the same regarding the windmill picture, looks like every pixel is to represent a different brick or so.

[FDisk80]

Then probably SSIM 2D is the right one for you. It's more or less a combination of Jinc + SSIM.


It should produce the most accurate results, so I generally recommend turning it on.

-------

nevcairiel just released a new nightly LAV build with:

Direct Blu-Ray 3D playback support

Currently limited to only support playing SSIF files directly. See his post here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1757466#post1757466

https://i.imgur.com/7drHiqrh.jpg

[leeperry]

I've linked the original image. Look at it in original resolution and then look again at the downscaled images. Bicubic drops a lot of details which are visible in the SSIM image. SSIM is not a simple sharpener. It measures the detail level in the original image and tries to reproduce it properly (for human perception) in the downscaled image. SSIM is supposed to reproduce exactly the image we would see with our eyes, if we just put some distance between us and the object we're looking at. Of course SSIM is limited by the number of pixels and the aliasing the lower number is causing. But other than that, the sharpness produced by SSIM should be fairly accurate.

I've always been rather unhappy with how soft downscaled images got and thought they should really look sharper.
Fair enough but even your original image seen as 1:1 on a 1080p display has been very obviously sharpened, again windmills and boats in Holland don't look all that plasticky and edge enhanced.

A more valid comparison would be using a natural looking picture and see whether it still looks natural and detailed after being downscaled but I just spent 15 mins on google and it's pretty hard to find a pristine looking 4K picture.....mostly because it would appear that the higher you crank the megapixels count the noisier sensors inevitably get to some extent(much like audio that mostly captures stray noise >88.2kHz from what Dan Lavry said) and even the nerdiests who go RAW and postprocess in pshop sadly don't have mVR at their disposal. It's rather unfunny how picture viewers/editors look terribly dated compared to mVR. Would need to use 4K demos screenshots I think.

[kasper93]

Ah, I see. SSIM currently requires both X and Y to be downscaled (or at least not upscaled). In your case one direction needs upscaling, the other downscaling. In that case SSIM doesn't work. Well, I suppose I could force image doubling in such a way that both X and Y are doubled the same number of times so that SSIM can be used afterwards. But to be honest, I don't think for downscaling after doubling SSIM has much benefit over Bicubic150.

I see. One more question, why super-xbr always scale X and Y the same? Is it limitation? https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhtb9wguc7nrfdm/xbr.png

[madshi]

Fair enough but even your original image seen as 1:1 on a 1080p display has been very obviously sharpened, again windmills and boats in Holland don't look all that plasticky and edge enhanced.

A more valid comparison would be using a natural looking picture and see whether it still looks natural and detailed after being downscaled but I just spent 15 mins on google and it's pretty hard to find a pristine looking 4K picture.....mostly because it would appear that the higher you crank the megapixels count the noisier sensors inevitably get to some extent(much like audio that mostly captures stray noise >88.2kHz from what Dan Lavry said) and even the nerdiests who go RAW and postprocess in pshop sadly don't have mVR at their disposal. It's rather unfunny how picture viewers/editors look terribly dated compared to mVR. Would need to use 4K demos screenshots I think.
One good test is to see what happens if you use PiP for live TV. Here's a comparison using DVBViewer:

http://madshi.net/DVBViewerBib2.png

(original frame) (http://madshi.net/soccerOrg.png)

Now are you really telling me that SSIM is too sharp and detailed, and that Catmull-Rom is the only way to get a natural looking downscale? To my eyes the Catmull-Rom image looks like I forgot to put my glasses on (if I had any).

I see. One more question, why super-xbr always scale X and Y the same? Is it limitation? https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhtb9wguc7nrfdm/xbr.png
The algorithm by design always doubles both X and Y resolution. The algorithm simply can't scale only one direction. It's technically impossible, due to the way the pixels are interpolated.

[kasper93]

Thanks. I once might look into those algorithms to see what's going on :)

[KoD]

Thanks madshi, downscaling of vobsubs/sups works fine now.

[leeperry]

Now are you really telling me that SSIM is too sharp and detailed, and that Catmull-Rom is the only way to get a natural looking downscale?
It's all about compromises, Bicubic50 is very obviously too soft for such a drastic downscale and SSIM has way too little pixels headroom to output anything but an overprocessed looking picture. I have yet to play around with the 1D/2D SSIM sub-options but an overprocessed looking über-sharp 1080p picture is not on my agenda, great news if it works wonders on PIP and 4K :)

I'll try to find a pristine looking 4K picture and come back with 1080p comparisons.

[JarrettH]

PIP isn't supposed to look good :p

[Stereodude]

FWIW, SSIM 1D & 2D gave me very nice results with the one UHD test clip I used on my 1080p plasma. Is it too sharp? I have no idea. SSIM 2D seemed even sharper than 1D. Jinc downscaling didn't seem much sharper than Catmull-rom. Granted I don't anticipate having much UHD content to play back so the discussion is mainly academic at this point to me.

[XMonarchY]

FWIW, SSIM 1D & 2D gave me very nice results with the one UHD test clip I used on my 1080p plasma. Is it too sharp? I have no idea. SSIM 2D seemed even sharper than 1D. Jinc downscaling didn't seem much sharper than Catmull-rom. Granted I don't anticipate having much UHD content to play back so the discussion is mainly academic at this point to me.

But downscaling isn't applied only when you play video files with resolutions above 1080p, assuming that your native display resolution is 1080p.

AFAIK, Downscaling also gets applied if you utilize Image Doubling/Multiplying for sub-1080p content. For example, 720p content with doubling will result in downscaling on 1080p display because 720x2 (doubling) or 720x4 (quadrupling) will result in image resolutions above 1080p (1440p when doubled or 2880 when quadrupled), thus requiring downscaling back to 1080p.

[XMonarchY]

Why is madVR using the term "Image Doubling" for a section that includes doubling, quadrupling, and even "octupling"? Why not just use "Image Multiplication" or "Image 2x/4x/8x Multiplication" ??? "Image Doubling" doesn't sound very accurate...

[Thunderbolt8]

I've always been rather unhappy with how soft downscaled images got and thought they should really look sharper.I think the point is that you aim for the scaler to output that image which resembles the source most accurately, while leeperry wants an accurate image as well (to his liking), but just at the very end of the process when the image hits the screen and not necessarily after only scaling. so for you its only 1 step to arrive at this target, while for him it can be many steps with additional sharpening after scaling etc. thats where you disagree with each other. so SSIM might shoot too far off target with its sharpening, but it still resembles the source image more closely than the other algorithms. leeperry is willing to use more than one step to arrive at this target and therefore can go with an algorithm that wont sharp too much to be save and then can apply more sharpening more presicely afterwards to resemble the original image better (or maybe just better for his own liking).

bottom line is I guess you have to decide for yourself if you want everyone to go with the 1 step solution (or at least be more limited in your options compared to what leeperry wants) or leave room in case others want additional tweaking.

[Stereodude]

But downscaling isn't applied only when you play video files with resolutions above 1080p, assuming that your native display resolution is 1080p.
Yes, that depends on your settings.

AFAIK, Downscaling also gets applied if you utilize Image Doubling/Multiplying for sub-1080p content. For example, 720p content with doubling will result in downscaling on 1080p display because 720x2 (doubling) or 720x4 (quadrupling) will result in image resolutions above 1080p (1440p when doubled or 2880 when quadrupled), thus requiring downscaling back to 1080p.
I image double DVDs with NNEDI3 and then upscale them the rest of the way with Jinc AR. I did not find quadrupling to work satisfactorily previously in my experimentation when NNEDI3 was the only doubling option.

I can image double 720p24 and then scale it down to 1080p, but 720p60 was a no go last time I tried it. I've since gotten a PCIe 3.0 motherboard, gone all x64, and now there are more possible doubling routines so maybe I should revisit. However, with the previous options and the fact I didn't have any source of 720p24 content (it's not on Blu-rays or broadcast/OTA HDTV) downscaling after doubling was not common for me.

I guess that leads to an interesting question in the case of 720p -> 1080p. Is image doubling with a super -xbr flavor and then downscaling with one of these new sharper routines preferable to straight Jinc AR upscaling? I'll have to test the render times for this later when I get home.

[ryrynz]

I'll try to find a pristine looking 4K picture and come back with 1080p comparisons.

Well with that 50Mbps 4K Chimei inn video which is pretty pristine it's obviously how much better SSIM does with fine details. Things like hair and fabric patterns, small leaves, jewelry etc. It's no contest when it comes to real life content.

FWIW, SSIM 1D & 2D gave me very nice results with the one UHD test clip I used on my 1080p plasma. Is it too sharp? I have no idea. SSIM 2D seemed even sharper than 1D..

It's not though.

[Stereodude]

It's not though.
It's not too sharp or 2D isn't sharper than 1D SSIM?

The edges of fine text were definitely crisper with 2D than 1D.

[dansrfe]

Crash on v0.90.10:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9iVOLolmqxdU0FIeV80OWxjTlU

[ryrynz]

It's not too sharp or 2D isn't sharper than 1D SSIM?

The edges of fine text were definitely crisper with 2D than 1D.

Both.

No, the edges are better defined.. not sharper. It's more accurate to the source. If anything it should look slightly less sharp due to the absence of some ringing that 1D has, but it's hard to notice.

[Warner306]

Why is madVR using the term "Image Doubling" for a section that includes doubling, quadrupling, and even "octupling"? Why not just use "Image Multiplication" or "Image 2x/4x/8x Multiplication" ??? "Image Doubling" doesn't sound very accurate...

I think image doubling is accurate. A 4x resize is still a double -- it is a double of a double. Every resize is a multiple of 2x; therefore, it is a double.

[ryrynz]

I think image doubling is accurate.

Exactly. Those upscalers can only be used for doubling, so it's apt.

[madshi]

Crash on v0.90.10:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9iVOLolmqxdU0FIeV80OWxjTlU
Have you had a chance yet to double and triple check that older builds definitely didn't have this problem?

-------

The latest LAV nightly build now "fully" supports 3D Blu-Rays, just like 2D Blu-Rays, including playlists, seamless branching etc. The only thing still missing is 3D subtitles, for those that may need it. Here's the download:

https://files.1f0.de/lavf/nightly/

Thanks to nevcairiel, once again!!

[Sunset1982]

The latest LAV nightly build now "fully" supports 3D Blu-Rays, just like 2D Blu-Rays, including playlists, seamless branching etc. The only thing still missing is 3D subtitles, for those that may need it. Here's the download:

https://files.1f0.de/lavf/nightly/

Thanks to nevcairiel, once again!!

Guys you are great! Thx to nev and madshi for your hard work!

[ryrynz]

Madshi, anything useful in the ChromaReconstructor 3.0 update that can be applied to madVR?
Also, any chance of other options improving soft? Placebo soft? Soft AR? The sharp options seem pretty unusable as far as accuracy goes.
Would like something that's a mix of what Jinc AR and Reconstruction gives me essentially.

[Stereodude]

That's somewhat strange. If you create a debug log with those queue sizes I can have a look. Maybe I'll see some sort of bug.
Okay, here is a log. I hope I did it right. I went FSE, activated the OSD, started playback, and turned off the OSD a few seconds in after about 12 dropped frames had occurred.

http://stereodude.net/madVR_Stereodude_frame_drops.7z

[Stereodude]

I can image double 720p24 and then scale it down to 1080p, but 720p60 was a no go last time I tried it. I've since gotten a PCIe 3.0 motherboard, gone all x64, and now there are more possible doubling routines so maybe I should revisit. However, with the previous options and the fact I didn't have any source of 720p24 content (it's not on Blu-rays or broadcast/OTA HDTV) downscaling after doubling was not common for me.

I guess that leads to an interesting question in the case of 720p -> 1080p. Is image doubling with a super -xbr flavor and then downscaling with one of these new sharper routines preferable to straight Jinc AR upscaling? I'll have to test the render times for this later when I get home.
Okay, so I tried this. A R9 380 can image double 1080p60 and downscale and keep the render times under 16ms. NNEDI3 is still pretty hard to do. 16 worked okay with catmull-rom downscaling (AR +LL). SuperXBR doubling with SSIM 2D downscaling was no problem. I didn't try every possible permutation since it was late last night when I was trying it.

[aufkrawall]

I've since gotten a PCIe 3.0 motherboard, gone all x64, and now there are more possible doubling routines so maybe I should revisit.
Do you think there is still a copyback with NNEDI3 on AMD?
If no, PCIe 3.0 shouldn't really have an influence on madVR.

[IanD]

nevcairiel just released a new nightly LAV build with:

Direct Blu-Ray 3D playback support

Currently limited to only support playing SSIF files directly.
Does MadVR support outputting 3D SSIF as SBS/OU/interlaced under XP?

I can play 3D SSIF using MadVR and LAV under XP, but couldn't find any options for SBS/OU/interlaced output. I don't have a 3D TV that accepts frame packing to test out 3D playback and it only seems to render as 2D on a standard monitor.

I can get Stereoscopic Player (Trial) to output SBS/OU/interlaced/anaglyph from 3D SSIF under XP, so it is possible, but it's commercial ware.

[clsid]

3D output options are in: Devices > [DeviceName] > Properties

[IanD]

3D output options are in: Devices > [DeviceName] > Properties
Thanks for that, but no matter what option I select, the output doesn't change from a 2D presentation (with subtitles) of the 3D SSIF. I guess it is just not setup for XP use.

[Sunset1982]

@madshi:

Will there be an option to customize the color of the seekbar in FSE mode when we arrive madvr 1.0? Are there plans to support chaptermarks? That would be really cool, so one vote from me! :-D

[Stereodude]

Do you think there is still a copyback with NNEDI3 on AMD?
If no, PCIe 3.0 shouldn't really have an influence on madVR.
I'm not sure. My understanding following along with this thread was that AMD cards were affected by PCIe bus bandwidth more so than Nvidia. I built a new HTPC for other reasons, not to get PCIe 3.0, but I thought that it would help a little.

[leeperry]

bottom line is I guess you have to decide for yourself if you want everyone to go with the 1 step solution (or at least be more limited in your options compared to what leeperry wants) or leave room in case others want additional tweaking.
Nicely put, anyway I just ran comparisons on 16:9 1440*1080p30 video content using RS chroma + SR@1 for both chroma & luma and it's matter of picking your poison between CR AR LL + sxbr25(thick and ringy) or NNEDI3(already too sharp to use in combination with luma SR@1) or NEDI(not very detailed but still sharper than Jinc upscaling) or SSIM 1D(2D is too GPU intensive for my HD7850 and so is Jinc downscaling) + NEDI or plain Jinc AR upscaling(with a slight zoom in order to trigger SR+SSIM).

If the ultimate goal is a "set and forget" solution to mVR's config then a sharpness strength for SSIM would be the ideal choice IMO as it surely does a lot of good but as much as extreme details extraction might be great for PIP it can easily look too digital on double SD/1080p downscaled to 1080p.

[Thunderbolt8]

If the ultimate goal is a "set and forget" solution to mVR's config then a sharpness strength for SSIM would be the ideal choice IMO as it surely does a lot of good but as much as extreme details extraction might be great for PIP it can easily look too digital on double SD/1080p downscaled to 1080p.I guess in such cases it might make most sense to have such a strength option in profiles so you can specify your set & forget sharpness for different kinds of resolutions (+scaling factors?)

[huhn]

I'm not sure. My understanding following along with this thread was that AMD cards were affected by PCIe bus bandwidth more so than Nvidia. I built a new HTPC for other reasons, not to get PCIe 3.0, but I thought that it would help a little.

what ever the problem ist it is not the PCI 3.0 connector anymore. it's barely used.

[leeperry]

I guess in such cases it might make most sense to have such a strength option in profiles so you can specify your set & forget sharpness for different kinds of resolutions (+scaling factors?)
right on :)

[Aman87]

Hey madashi, I sometimes get an "exclusive mode failed" error. Sometimes it works sometimes not. I have attached a log file. Maybe you could look into it if you find some time. Thanks!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aw95mu8hj35ui04/madVR%20-%20log.rar?dl=0

[XMonarchY]

Wow! SSIM 2D + AR + LL downscaling looks much better than Catmull-Rom + AT + LL downscaling in 720p videos when Luma Doubling + Quadrupling is used! The result is sharper and looks much closer to 1080p content. In fact, with above configuration + other highest quality settings), 720p with madVR looks better than 1080p with VLC Media Player or MPC-HC with LAV & EVR!

More huge thanks to madshi for madVR and Shiandow for SSIM!

BTW, what does madVR stand for? I know "mad" comes from "madshi", but what about VR? Video Renderer? What does "madshi" stand for?

[iSeries]

Wow! SSIM 2D + AR + LL downscaling looks much better than Catmull-Rom + AT + LL downscaling in 720p videos when Luma Doubling + Quadrupling is used!

I can't see any difference between using SSIM or Bicubic125 when doubling 720p and downscaling to 1080p.

Of course, for 4k downscaling SSIM rocks. The only 4k stuff I have are the free demos but SSIM makes them look 4k on my 1080p screen.

[XMonarchY]

I can't see any difference between using SSIM or Bicubic125 when doubling 720p and downscaling to 1080p.

Of course, for 4k downscaling SSIM rocks. The only 4k stuff I have are the free demos but SSIM makes them look 4k on my 1080p screen.

I think it depends on other settings and the actual content. I haven't checked out Bicubic125, but SSIM did perform better than Catmull-ROM.

I use:
- MPC-HC + latest LAV Filters (DXVA2 Copy-Back Acceleration), - 10bit+ bit-depth on display with 12bit output
- 0-255 range
- 3DLUT
- Reduce Banding Artifacts (top - low, bottom - medium, but depends on content),
- NNEDI3 64n + SuperRes (strength = 3) for Chroma Upscaling
- NNEDI3 32n for both Image Doubling and Image Quadrupling (Luma Only, both set to Always)
- SSIM 2D + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling
- SuperRes (strength = 3) for Image Refinement (Refine the image After every 2x upscaling step)
- Error Difussion Dither (Method 2 + Use Colored Noise + Change Dither for Every Frame)
- Nothing selected/ticked in Trade Quality for Performance

[Telion]

Ok, I've done one more change. Is it fixed in v0.90.10?
Yes, this time the memleak is gone completely. Big thanks for all your efforts, madshi!

[iSeries]

I think it depends on other settings and the actual content. I haven't checked out Bicubic125, but SSIM did perform better than Catmull-ROM.

I use:
- MPC-HC + latest LAV Filters (DXVA2 Copy-Back Acceleration), - 10bit+ bit-depth on display with 12bit output
- 0-255 range
- 3DLUT
- Reduce Banding Artifacts (top - low, bottom - medium, but depends on content),
- NNEDI3 64n + SuperRes (strength = 3) for Chroma Upscaling
- NNEDI3 32n for both Image Doubling and Image Quadrupling (Luma Only, both set to Always)
- SSIM 2D + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling
- SuperRes (strength = 3) for Image Refinement (Refine the image After every 2x upscaling step)
- Error Difussion Dither (Method 2 + Use Colored Noise + Change Dither for Every Frame)
- Nothing selected/ticked in Trade Quality for Performance

Yes for sure SSIM is sharper than Catmull-Rom (bicubic50). In terms of sharpness it looks identical to me to bicubic125 when doubling 720p and downscaling to 1080p. I could not observe any additional detail over bicubic125 either when doubling 720p and downscaling so I'm sticking to bicubic125 for this.

[ryrynz]

I use:

- NNEDI3 64n + SuperRes (strength = 3) for Chroma Upscaling
- NNEDI3 32n for both Image Doubling and Image Quadrupling (Luma Only, both set to Always)


Consider NNEDI3 64 for image doubling and cut back chroma to 32. This would offer you a more worthwhile use of your resources.

[kalston]

Agreed, I use NNEDI3 32 for Chroma but ONLY because I got power to spare on my 980 ti. I tried comparing NNEDI3 16 vs 32 vs Jinc AR and I can't see a difference when it comes to Chroma upscaling on actual content (SD or HD). Maybe with a special test file I could see it.

I'm using NNEDI3 256 (+Jinc AR for the final touch) for "image upscaling" (720p>1440p usually) and I can just change the Chroma upscaling back to Jinc AR for 30fps+ content (for 24, 25fps I don't even need to bother).

[x7007]

NNEDI3 won't ever work with newer nvidia drivers with CUVID ?

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Hey Madshi,

I might have discovered a very minor bug in my setup:
For some reason NNEDI Luma quadrupling doesn't work on my 640x480 source (to 1080p) if I set it to 2.4x (or higher). It does work if I set it to always.

Doubling works as intended.

I'm using MPC-HC, an r9 290 with catalyst 15.7.1 on win7 pro x64. Thanks in advance!

[nevcairiel]

For some reason NNEDI Luma quadrupling doesn't work on my 640x480 source (to 1080p) if I set it to 2.4x (or higher). It does work if I set it to always.!

640x480 * 2.25 -> 1440x1080. The factor is below 2.4. :)

[leandronb]

Hi guys, i am having a problem that i think is related with madvr.
Sometimes when i am playing a tv show and i skip to the next episode, it just shows a black screen, and even returning from fullscreen i can't play the episode. i have to close mpc and open the episode again. this do not happen when i am not in fullscreen.
Maybe is related to the change in refresh rate, i use the option to change refresh rate in madvr.
madvr version 0.89.19.
When i am not in fullscreen i can skip all episodes in a season without any problem, but in fullscreen it sometimes give me this blackscreen.
Using windows 10.

[XMonarchY]

Why is there NNEDI3 for Chroma Upscaling and Image Doubling/Quadrupling, but not Image Upscaling?

I am also a bit perplexed about the whole Bicubic thing. Are you saying that all the Image Downscaling options (and perhaps others?) are just renamed version of Bicubic? Catmull-Rom = Bicubic50, SSIM = Bicubic125, Jinc/NNEDI3/others = some other Bicubic???

[ibius]

Why is there NNEDI3 for Chroma Upscaling and Image Doubling/Quadrupling, but not Image Upscaling?

Well, I gotta say, you sound like it's your first time here.
NNEDI3 can only scale 2x, chroma is always 2x and image doubling/quadrupling part I leave to you.
NNEDI3 can double in both directions X or Y, Super-Xbr for example can only double X and Y.

Also, I remembered reading this same question you asked in 'madVR options explained' thread, took me seconds to find it, http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1710105#post1710105