madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Egh]

After all you usually won't change these settings in the middle of watching a movie. One of the reasons for the dropped/delayed frames when changing settings is that madVR clears the rendering queue to make sure that the changed settings show effect immediately.


Now I see why it drops more frames in the middle of the movie compared to renderer initialisation (typically around 10 for the movie start)

[Grmpf]

I don't think so. madVR asks the GPU about which scanline is currently being drawn. The allowed numbers (according to Microsoft documentation) are between 0 and the height of the graphics mode you're using. So if your GPU is set to 1080p, your GPU may return scanline numbers between 0 and 1080. However, I got scanlines reported like 1116. That confused my display refresh rate calculation formulas. This looks like a simple bug in the graphics driver to me.

Maybe Microsoft is counting front porch, back porch and sync width lines too ? 1080p is 1125 lines that way (you can see this at my screenshots over at the EnTechTaiwan-4770 Thread) - 1116 would be inside that number.

Btw great to see this release - i will try to test it today.

[pie1394]

@madshi

madVR 0.10 works well in continuous playback if we do not talk about trick play actions. Now It provides smoothy motion visual experience with the Lanczos4 setting on my system. (E6750, XP, 8800GTS/320) The 24Mbps streaming playback through the GBE network looks quite ok, too.

Different types of 23.976 progressive and 29.97 fps interlaced MPEG2 / MPEG4 / H.264 contents have been tried. It is observed that madVR 0.10 can provide identical smoothy motion visual effect as EVR-CP on my Hitachi PDP TV. I will try to play PAL DVD contents (576i50) to 1080p60 output mode to see how the feeling is.

The only exception is 1024x576p60 video -> 1920x1080p60 output. Continuously tearing and dropped frames pop up about every 2 ~ 3 seconds. It is a progressive MPEG2 video content with 16.67 ms frame duration, which is the same with V-sync refresh rate in my system. The decoder queue shows "1/16". Isn't the a/v sync mechanism flexible enough for such 1:1 renderering mode? Such issue was not observed with madVR 0.8 / 0.9 and any other VR.

An 1280x1080i60 MPEG-4 ASP (interlaced) clip was tested with Xvid 1.2 decoder. Although madVR cannot grab any frame rate info from source filter, the playback is still very smoothy. This is the same with ver 0.8 ~ 0.10.

How do you apply the change of output window dimension? I am curious how it produces these new issues with the version 0.10's implemention.

[Thunderbolt8]

just encountered a problem, I get constantly dropped & delayed frames and a massive stuttering picture during playback with 720p 60i mpeg2 files (no matter if .ts or remuxed to .mkv), maybe because in this case vcsync invertall is 16.66ms while movie intervall is 16.68ms (upload queue 5-7/8 (but once for example also dropped to 3/8 shortly), render queue 5-8/8)

seems like this appears only to be that way in fullscreen mode though, looks allright in window mode

[FoLLgoTT]

@madshi
When I open a DVD in ZP or MPC I get a message box with "Query unknown PropSet" and after tat the usual macrovision error.

[Steveo08]

is it possible to compare pictures with madVR and dxva?


because i can't make pictures with mpc-hc & madVR, there is always an error message.

[Grmpf]

Just use "Print Screen" on your Keyboard and Paste it into your favorite imaging tool (even Windows Paint will work) and voilà you can save your screenshot !

[Steveo08]

Just use "Print Screen" on your Keyboard and Paste it into your favorite imaging tool (even Windows Paint will work) and voilà you can save your screenshot !



thank you, that's a good idea :-)

[DeepBeepMeep]

With 0.10 I have big performances issues with my 8600 GTS. I need now to disable 3Dlut and turn on at least one performance option if I don't want have a horrible stutter with tons of dropped and delayed frames. I could use the top quality settings with earlier versions.

I wonder if this has to do with the fact I play move a 23.976fps movie on a 72Hz screen, maybe It will better on a 24Hz screen.

On a side note, I am not sure that the stats are completely reliable as it sometime it is quite obvious there are some frame drops even if it is not reported.

[Mark_A_W]

Ok, I just watched a movie.

I didn't check at the start, but at the end I have 54 dropped frames and 27 delayed frames.

Normally at startup I get less than 10 of each (3ish, usually it seems).


There were two or three very obvious big glitches, but it was otherwise smooth.
This is similar to Beliyaal's MPC EVR custom actually (not in exclusive fullscreen), but they were less drastic.

Reclock was in the filter path, but "disabled". I'll set Reclock to it's normal settings for the next movie, and the one after that I'll try disabled again.


My CPU is a Q6600 at 3hz, there's heaps of overhead - I'm only using 30% CPU. I do have my harddrives set to spin down after 25 mins, I'll disable that.


And Madshi, the screensaver/powersaver behaviour is odd. ZoomPlayer sitting doing nothing will disable windows screensaver/powersaving - it'll sit there forever with the monitors on. But playing with MadVR and the monitors turn off after 5 mins - which is instead of a screensaver for me, monitors turn off after 5 mins and it goes into standby after 15 mins.


And I have seen a few stutters which didn't cause the dropped frames or delayed frames numbers to change - while playing around just now.

[kostik]

great build. Works smooth for me...1080p24 , even with spline 64 and lancroz 8.

Thank you very much, expecting for your next builds , great job :)

[noee]

Just a couple of issues so far:

- Changing monitor rez during playback no longer handled gracefully (black screen, but playback continues, MPC becomes non-responsive)
- Playback of 1080/30P (1:1) with many dropped/delayed frames. Counters increment as playback continues

720 24/30P are stable, good numbers, very smooth. SD material upscaled, excellent as well, butter-smoove. :D

HD2600XT, CoreAVC 1.9.5
chroma resampler=SoftCubic100
luma upsampler=Lanczos4
luma downsampler=Lanczos4

[wayland]

cant show it in screenshots but black is gray when using madvr or HR and having the nvidia control panel set to RGB, must be a problem with my either my tv (Panasonic Viera TH-42PZ80) or how nvidia does RGB as the ati3450 i used to use was fine

[flanger216]

Fantastic update. Refresh rate is reported perfectly for me now. CPU usage is down. More surprisingly, my GPU usage is considerably down. Previously my HD3600 could only handle Catmull-Rom luma upscaling; now it can do Spline36 with no dropped frames, an upload queue of 4/8 and a render queue of 8/8 (!). Awesome stuff as always.

[aydc]

Thank you for this fantastic renderer madshi! I haven't seen anything this exciting on this scene since the early days of Haali Renderer. I'm using the 0.9 version and I love it.

I have two improvement ideas:

1. Could you include a brightness or gamma slider on the settings screen? Some movies are too dark, so I want to change the brightness while watching the movie. Yes, most decoders have this, but it would be great if we could adjust it for all the formats in the same place, which is the renderer.

2. When using MPC, if I go from windowed mode to fullscreen, the image gets blocky for 1/3 of a second, then it corrects itself. Not a big deal, but a smoothed transition from windowed mode to fullscreen would be preferable.

Cheers!

[TinTime]

cant show it in screenshots but black is gray when using madvr or HR and having the nvidia control panel set to RGB, must be a problem with my either my tv (Panasonic Viera TH-42PZ80) or how nvidia does RGB as the ati3450 i used to use was fine

Set nvidia control panel to RGB output, madVR to TV levels, and your TV brightness to halfway. How is that?

[TinTime]

I'm afraid version 0.10 now gives me permanent tearing with 24fps material at a reported refresh rate of 24.001Hz, with or without ReClock. The vsync interval is 41.66ms, the movie frame interval is 40.67ms. This is with both SD and HD video on a 1080p screen using an 8600GT. Previous versions of madVR were fine.

The decoder queue is always 16/16. The upload and render queues both fluctuate slightly but remain above 4/8. I don't seem to get dropped or delayed frames beyond the initial flurry when starting up the video and going to full screen.

25fps video at 50Hz refresh rate works fine, as does playing the 24fps video at 50Hz or 60Hz (from a tearing point of view).

[cyberbeing]

The render queue fluctuating between 7/8 and 8/8 is perfectly fine. It may go down to 4/8 without having to worry. Lower values than 4/8 might be dangerous for smooth motion, though. And of course the "delayed frames" number in the OSD increasing throughout the whole movie is bad.

It's more like the render queue occasionally goes to 7/8 for like 2-3 seconds and then I get a delayed frame. After about 5-10 delayed frames, I would usually get a dropped frame. These increasing delayed/dropped frames during downscaling is what I'm concerned about. It happens no matter what scaling method I choose, yet, when upscaling 1920x1080 (or any other resolution), there is no problem and when playing at 1:1, no problem.

Was something changed with downscaling in 0.10 which could be causing the render queue to not keep up with the video. In earlier versions of madVR, downscaling seemed less intensive then upscaling since a smaller image had to be rendered. In any case, I'm suspecting this is a bug in 0.10.

[KoD]

MPC sub renderer is the best :) Especially if you upscale video on playback.

As for internal subtitle mechanics, I'm not sure. Renderers (such as Haali's one) have a subtitle pin. As MPC renders in some user selected resolution (I personally use 1280x1024), I guess it is renderer's job to up/down scale the subtitle texture and blend it with the video. Using some filter in-between is a flexible but not optimal approach, imo.

I'm sorry to inform you, but the external vsfilter is more advanced in the features it supports than the internal MPC one. As for Haali's renderer, subtitle rendering happens with MPC by using vsfilter callbacks, so Haali's renderer doesn't magically use any other subtitling code, it's still vsfilter that does the job.

Similar advice to Mark_A_W, who also somehow believes Haali's renderer has a subtitler incorporated. Just use the vsfilter.dll I've linked to in a previous post, and be done with it. No more "madVR doesn't support subtitles" nonsense, please. This is the fourth time I write about this, but some people seem to have selective blindness.

[Peekstra]

Did anyone get Zoomplayer 6.0 to work without any Macrovision failure when trying to play a DVD and using Madvr 0.10?

I tried dscaler, ffdshow and powerdvd.

[Jong]

AFAIK, these problems should go away in fullscreen exclusive mode, fortunately.Madshi, in fullscreen exclusive mode you can do your own OSD right? At least equivalent to the MPC one and hopefully a lot less gross!?

I think a good OSD (and stability) will go a long way to get round most people's problem with exclusive mode.

MPC-HC's VMR9 exclusive mode is good and stable but the OSD is ugly.

Zoomplayer has no OSD at all AND seems rather unstable.

Exclusive mode has got a bad name unreasonably, just because it has been an afterthought in most players. TheaterTek did it right, but then gave up the game 2 years ago :(

[wayland]

i feel foolish now, it was a problem with the tv's settings. i had set it up using the dve bluray (and powerdvd) , loading the patterns from the blurray in evr and madvr evr was more or less the same as powerdvd while madvr needs a much lower brightness setting

[KoD]

madshi, please, do a quick re-release of 0.10 with the renderer reading the settings for luma upscaling and downscaling, because right now it's unusable. I wonder if people realize each time they start playing a file, the settings were reset to Soft 50 and Lanczos4.

Another issue: when I try opening a file in ZoomPlayer, I have to wait about 10 seconds till playback starts. I'm not using any 3dlut, so it's not a 3dlut file being generated. Anyone else experiencing this ? I don't know what exactly happens, but it looks like either madVR is collecting data for a while before playback starts, or simply a thread synchronization issue, with a thread waiting too much for another one (it's not a deadlock I guess, since playback eventually starts)

[allak]

Why don't you use VSFilter? It works perfectly with every madVR revision.

Hello, I've tried to use the external VSFilter, but as soon as I load it (by listing it under "external filters") MPC-HC does not use madVR anymore and seems to switch to the overlay mixer renderer.

I think that is because, with VSFilter loaded, the PIN out of the MPC Video Decoder filter change from YV12 to YUY2, which is not supported by madVR.

I've checked the Properties of VSFilter and under the "Colors" tab I have YV12 listed before YUY2, so I do not understand why the Video Decoder wants to output YUY2 :confused:.

Is there any other setting I could try to set ? TIA

[Matching_Mole]

I'm sorry to inform you, but the external vsfilter is more advanced in the features it supports than the internal MPC one.

You're right, vsfilter can work with madVR and have all this features. But it still remains a bad option for me because you have to force it in a graph (for example when I want to add subtitles to an DVD - or a blu-ray - without a subtitle in my language). This is not easy with some graph configurations, I have experienced this before to use the features of MPC. More than the easiness of MPC, the quality is also better because the subtitles are rendered at the final step and are not affected by the sizing operations.

And overall (for me at least), the override placement do not work with vsfilter (this is logical because it add the subtitles to the decoded frames without the black borders... this is the render which add them) except if you make resize in ffdshow in orders to have the black borders... but I think this is not the best solution with madVR :D

So for me the very best solution is to add the subtitles pins to madVr. But it is to Madshi to make this decision to implement it.

[Blight]

v0.10 Bug Report using Zoom Player:

1. When pausing the video, the image is not updated (pause the video then drag the window off-screen and the window will be wiped black).
2. Switching the playback window between monitors doesn't update the OSD data (which may indicate that it's not being updated with the new monitor data).
3. Initial video load drops a lot of frames (even with tear-fix disabled), about 9-15 dropped.
4. Pressing Stop and then seeking, doesn't update the image (and pressing Stop doesn't show the first video frame either).
5. Pressing Pause doesn't pause the image instantly, at least 3-4 more frames are displayed.
6. I still get the occasional full on freeze (no image, GUI stops responding).
7. It takes 2-3 seconds longer than other renderers for the first video frame to show.

WinVista 32bit, NV 7600GT

[cyberbeing]

I think that is because, with VSFilter loaded, the PIN out of the MPC Video Decoder filter change from YV12 to YUY2, which is not supported by madVR.

I've checked the Properties of VSFilter and under the "Colors" tab I have YV12 listed before YUY2, so I do not understand why the Video Decoder wants to output YUY2 :confused:.
You would have to ask in the MPC-HC thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123537) for someone to fix that. I just checked and MPC Video decoder does seem to always output YUY2 when connecting to VSFilter. This is something outside of madshi's control.

A workaround would be to use a different decoder like FFDshow (http://www.xvidvideo.ru/content/category/1/4/5/) and disable MPC's decoder.

[nuhi]

hey madshi, how about RGB32 output support?
Currently I am watching some movie with a lot of red light and only ffdshow with RGB32 output can decode it without the blocking artifacts but then I would need to go to EVR output since madvr doesn't accept that format.
Anyway just wondering, if it's a problem don't worry about it.
Thanks.

[KoD]

You're right, vsfilter can work with madVR and have all this features. But it still remains a bad option for me because you have to force it in a graph (for example when I want to add subtitles to an DVD - or a blu-ray - without a subtitle in my language). This is not easy with some graph configurations, I have experienced this before to use the features of MPC. More than the easiness of MPC, the quality is also better because the subtitles are rendered at the final step and are not affected by the sizing operations.

And overall (for me at least), the override placement do not work with vsfilter (this is logical because it add the subtitles to the decoded frames without the black borders... this is the render which add them) except if you make resize in ffdshow in orders to have the black borders... but I think this is not the best solution with madVR :D

So for me the very best solution is to add the subtitles pins to madVr. But it is to Madshi to make this decision to implement it.

Actually, the subtitles being placed only on top of the image is how things are supposed to be. That's how subtitles are designed to work in the first place by the one creating them. If you ever get to watch subtitles which are placed over specific elements in an image, you'll notice they're no longer where they should be if you force positioning overriding.

All of this is because vsfilter (the external version) is the renderer that defines the standards for advanced subtitle formats like ssa and ass, and every subtitle file that is being created is being created to work the way vsfilter works.

[cyberbeing]

Currently I am watching some movie with a lot of red light and only ffdshow with RGB32 output can decode it without the blocking artifacts but then I would need to go to EVR output since madvr doesn't accept that format.

Having ffdshow output YV12 and madVR using 'softcubic100' chroma upsampling should have smoother reds then ffdshow using RGB32. Are you claiming this is not the case?

If so, maybe you should post a sample along with your configuration and hardware details.

[Egh]

Actually, the subtitles being placed only on top of the image is how things are supposed to be. That's how subtitles are designed to work in the first place by the one creating them. If you ever get to watch subtitles which are placed over specific elements in an image, you'll notice they're no longer where they should be if you force positioning overriding.

I thought you can override placement on per style basis :) Or maybe vsfilter is not that advanced then.


All of this is because vsfilter (the external version) is the renderer that defines the standards for advanced subtitle formats like ssa and ass, and every subtitle file that is being created is being created to work the way vsfilter works.
Not exactly as there are some differences between MPCHC and vsfilter renderers, apparently.
In MPCHC you can, for instance, select the texture resolution to render subs on.

[kostik]

Something interesting i've found out. When you turn VSYNC and Triple Buffer on (in 3D settings,in catalyst), you get much smoother playback . On my pioneer tv it even seems like 100Hz . I chose in all the options ,lancroz 8.

[Thunderbolt8]

a question on those lanczos filters, is it the higher the better (just with more GPU power needed)? if yes then why was lanczos4 chosen instead of lanczos8 for luma downscaling, shouldnt lanczos8 be better then?

[honai]

You shouldn't ask "which one is better" questions. Also, the differences between Lanczos 4/8 tap and the other algorithms have been discussed long ago.

[Thunderbolt8]

better in terms of PQ quality

[STaRGaZeR]

Have you guys tried the new dithering option in ffdshow? Madshi's test patterns look very very close to madVR. I see no real world difference.

[honai]

better in terms of PQ quality

Rephrasing makes no difference. People have different tastes, so for some people Lanczos-ringing will look better than to others.

[honai]

Have you guys tried the new dithering option in ffdshow? Madshi's test patterns look very very close to madVR. I see no real world difference.

Where would that be, which revision? I haven't seen any announcements. Who implemented it?

[Mark_A_W]

v0.10 Bug Report using Zoom Player:

1. When pausing the video, the image is not updated (pause the video then drag the window off-screen and the window will be wiped black).
2. Switching the playback window between monitors doesn't update the OSD data (which may indicate that it's not being updated with the new monitor data).
3. Initial video load drops a lot of frames (even with tear-fix disabled), about 9-15 dropped.
4. Pressing Stop and then seeking, doesn't update the image (and pressing Stop doesn't show the first video frame either).
5. Pressing Pause doesn't pause the image instantly, at least 3-4 more frames are displayed.
6. I still get the occasional full on freeze (no image, GUI stops responding).
7. It takes 2-3 seconds longer than other renderers for the first video frame to show.

WinVista 32bit, NV 7600GT



I kinda think the pause thing is cool - it's like it rolls to a stop :)


Blight, while you are here...how about rudimentary Bluray navigation in ZP please? Open-> Drive and it plays the main title. (HD-DVD too!) No menu or anything difficult - just read the playlist and play the longest/main title.

With MadVR and basic navigation, ZP will leap frog over MPC-HC.

Because, at the moment, MPC-HC has implemented Bluray navigation and smooth playback with EVR custom....you are getting left behind :scared:

MadVR fixes the smooth playback...so now we need the navigation.

Thank you

Mark (ZP user since...oooo...V2 or 3...I forget, but I think I bought the Cineplayer decoders for DVD about then, as they were red hot at the time).

Sorry for the OT guys.

[STaRGaZeR]

Where would that be, which revision? I haven't seen any announcements. Who implemented it?

See the changelog (http://ffdshow-tryout.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ffdshow-tryout/?view=log), rev2947 and up. AFAIK there are no builds up there, I'm using my own. madVR is sighly better, but I can see absolutely no real world differences and it has the advantage of being renderer agnostic. You can use it where you want as long as the renderer accepts RGB32.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

See the changelog (http://ffdshow-tryout.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ffdshow-tryout/?view=log), rev2947 and up. AFAIK there are no builds up there, I'm using my own.

For recent ffdshow builds check:
http://www.xvidvideo.ru/content/category/1/4/5/

[Mark_A_W]

I'm sorry to inform you, but the external vsfilter is more advanced in the features it supports than the internal MPC one. As for Haali's renderer, subtitle rendering happens with MPC by using vsfilter callbacks, so Haali's renderer doesn't magically use any other subtitling code, it's still vsfilter that does the job.

Similar advice to Mark_A_W, who also somehow believes Haali's renderer has a subtitler incorporated. Just use the vsfilter.dll I've linked to in a previous post, and be done with it. No more "madVR doesn't support subtitles" nonsense, please. This is the fourth time I write about this, but some people seem to have selective blindness.

Ok, it took me ages to get subtitles to work for 1080p MKV files, using DirectVobSub and Ffdshow.

When I try to play a file using MadVR it fails, with Haali it works.

Can you please start a thread on how to download/install/configure VSfilter? I can't even find a version newer than 2005... :(

[Hypernova]

I tried reduce the number of process that's running, doesn't seem to help. I'll hope that fullscreen exclusive mode give me a better result.

About ffdshow dithering, I just try that and it doesn't seem to give me any better result on the color band that I posted before, so I'm still keep my eyes closed on madVR :)

[jmonier]

I can't even find a version newer than 2005... :(

Here's the latest (2.39 - 11/2008):

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&package_id=246121&release_id=541232

[nlnl]

MadVR 0.10 report
Nvidia 9400 IGP, Intel 8300/2.83Gh, Vista 32, 185.85 video driver, MPC-HC
display refresh rate 23.976
AERO ON

playing 1080p@23 NO RESIZING

display 23.976 correct and stable, time keeps growing (I have issues with 0.9 +185.85)
movie fps 23.976fps (says source filter)
decoder queue 16/16
upload queue 4-5/8
render queue 7-8/8
movie res 1920,1080
target rectangle 0,0,1920,1080

dropped frames stable
delayed frames stable

Playback is very smooth and colours are vivid! :)

Remark:
1) After seeking 'upload queue', 'render queue' show something strange like 8/8, 8/8
2) Issue with VC-1 WMV DMO decoder: 'delayed frames' and 'dropped frames' are progressing. And using MPC-HC internal VC-1 decoder everything is OK.
3) Tearing when Aero OFF.

Thank you madshi! :thanks:

[yesgrey]

I tried reduce the number of process that's running, doesn't seem to help. I'll hope that fullscreen exclusive mode give me a better result.
With your graphics card, I think that even the fullscreen mode will not help you. Remember that madVR is shader based, and the old cards are not powerful enough in that area...

[Mark_A_W]

With your graphics card, I think that even the fullscreen mode will not help you. Remember that madVR is shader based, and the old cards are not powerful enough in that area...


Which is interesting, as according to the sig, Hypernova has a HD2600 Pro 512mb.

I have a HD2600XT 256mb, which is a tiny bit faster, and I have no problems at all. (But I am watching 1920x1080 material at 1920x1080, so only Chroma scaling).

[Mark_A_W]

Here's the latest (2.39 - 11/2008):

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&package_id=246121&release_id=541232


Thanks :)

But I'm already running it, it seems. DirectVobSub and VSfilter are the same thing.

It's not working for me, so there must be a configuration setting I'm missing - I'll play around.

[allak]

You would have to ask in the MPC-HC thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123537) for someone to fix that. I just checked and MPC Video decoder does seem to always output YUY2 when connecting to VSFilter. This is something outside of madshi's control.

Thanks for the confirmation. I am aware that this is something that madshi can't fix.

I will probably wait for madVR to support subs. I don't think it would be useful to add a workaround in MPC-HC for something that is going to be added to madVR anyway.

[tetsuo55]

Okay i tested 0.10 on my system (4770 on w7 x64 RC1)

Here are the stats:

Display 60.000XXHz (YY) (XX this changes every few seconds, YY keeps gettting higher and higher)
Movie (accurately shows the correct value for each sample i tested)
Decoder queue 16 / 16
upload queue 4-5 / 8 (very rarely it will show 6 / 8)
render queue 8 / 8

Frames drop or delay only on startup and seek

Whats wierd though is that nothing will change these numbers, it doesnt matter if i use nearest neighbour or lancsoz 8

It also does not matter if i do or don't scale (up or down) the input resolution doesn't matter either

EDIT:

Wow wierdness, actually nearest neighbour shows 4/8 and lancsoz8 shows 5/8

EDIT2:

Could someone write a small tutorial on how to get subtitles working?