madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[HillieSan]

Neither of my monitors supports G-sync.

Oh I think now it's called vertical sync in the driver. Just enable it.

[SamuriHL]

madvr is quite capable of outputting sdr at dci-p3 or bt.2020. It does a very nice job of it, in fact. IF that's what your display is expecting. if not, you'll get wildly oversaturated colors.

[LordX2]

madvr is quite capable of outputting sdr at dci-p3 or bt.2020. It does a very nice job of it, in fact. IF that's what your display is expecting. if not, you'll get wildly oversaturated colors.

Interesting - so how would I have this setup?

Under calibration? Set to this display is calibrated for BT.2020 - and then check the box to output in BT.2020?

But still have MadVR set to do the Tone Mapping under the HDR option?

[SamuriHL]

Yup. That's exactly how you set it up. Even better is to set up profiles so you can control all the options per content you're displaying. A profile for SDR, a profile for HDR, or potentially multiple SDR profiles for different upscaling settings based on input resolution, etc. But yea, the basic idea is set what your display is calibrated to, and madvr will then make sure the content matches no matter the input.

[LordX2]

Yup. That's exactly how you set it up. Even better is to set up profiles so you can control all the options per content you're displaying. A profile for SDR, a profile for HDR, or potentially multiple SDR profiles for different upscaling settings based on input resolution, etc. But yea, the basic idea is set what your display is calibrated to, and madvr will then make sure the content matches no matter the input.

Yeah wow - that was it... THAT was what I was missing a YEAR ago when I was here. The black level video looked PERFECT, the 4k content I have looks great... JEEZ.

Quick question: For video 'brightness' - I can adjust the gamma setting under calibration - AND I can adjust the peak nits in the HDR tone mapping - both seem to have an effect on the brightness. Which one is the correct one to use? Should I get gamma as close to what the projector is expecting and leave it alone - and only use the peak nits to adjust?

Edit: My Projector is is a Sony, and is set on Gamma7 (which 'simulates the gamma curve of film' - whatever that means). So I have no idea the numeric value that associates with....

[SamuriHL]

So the two are not the same thing. Gamma has to do with the environment you're watching in and I think a lot of content is made for a 2.2 gamma. So if you're in a "bat cave" and have calibrated your display for 2.2, that's what you should go with. When I had my HTPC up and running, I had multiple profiles with different gamma for "day mode" and "night mode" watching.

EDIT: As huhn says below, 2.4 for batcave, 2.2 for day mode. SIGH

Peak nits is different. That's how bright your screen can get when displaying HDR content. Ideally you would measure this with a colorimeter in your particular setup. Otherwise you might have to look at the specs of your projector to get some idea of the max peak nit for the mode you're watching on.

You want to configure both things as accurately as possible to get the best viewing experience for the environment you're watching in.

And I gave the sort of "high level" overview that's completely oversimplified on both of these things but it should give you a starting point to research both more in depth as needed.

[huhn]

a very short and wrong way how gamma ""should" be used.

bat cave 2.4
"some" light 2.2
day light flooded room even 1.8 could be needed.

[SamuriHL]

Yes, sorry, got that backwards. That's what I get for responding while working. LMAO Huhn is obviously correct.

[LordX2]

Yes, sorry, got that backwards. That's what I get for responding while working. LMAO Huhn is obviously correct.

Then this leads to the last question - the projector itself has the ability to turn OFF the gamma correction.

If I am using MadVR with the pure power curve lets say at 2.4 - should I turn gamma correction OFF on the projector? Or have it on and have both values match?

[SamuriHL]

I can't really answer that question. I don't know anything about your projector or how the gamma correction works or what it's for. What I can tell you is that if the projector is calibrated for a specific gamma, you should have madvr output that gamma using the display is calibrated settings. I'm driving an LG OLED calibrated to 2.2 in one mode and 2.4 in the other so I would think you'd want gamma correction in both but I really truly DON'T know the answer to this question in your specific case and would hate to try to guess and give you the wrong answer.

[LordX2]

I can't really answer that question. I don't know anything about your projector or how the gamma correction works or what it's for. What I can tell you is that if the projector is calibrated for a specific gamma, you should have madvr output that gamma using the display is calibrated settings. I'm driving an LG OLED calibrated to 2.2 in one mode and 2.4 in the other so I would think you'd want gamma correction in both but I really truly DON'T know the answer to this question in your specific case and would hate to try to guess and give you the wrong answer.

After some random googling, it turns out that the OFF selection tracks a 2.2 curve..... wth... No wonder people get so confused with this stuff.

[huhn]

without calibration you shoiuld just ignore it PJ drift a lot compared to other techs on top of this.

[tp4tissue]

NEVER use 2.2 for content made for 2.4 (movies)

It helps you see shadow detail in a "lit" room, but it also looks Desaturated due to the reduced contrast and slightly brighter color.

FIX the room.

[tp4tissue]

Peak nits is different.



For projector, the exact reading of (peak nit) is not important, because setups / rooms / internal mapping varies so much, we're setting target nit in madvr TO TASTE, if you're using the hdr->sdr mapper.

Measurement of course is still important for grey balance, but the target peak is floating.

[SamuriHL]

That's why I have 2 modes calibrated. One is a "I don't care if it's purely accurate" day mode and the other is my "this better look correct" night mode. :) But that's easy to do with an OLED.

As for the peak nits, for OLED it matters because we're still passing HDR and we're fighting internal tone mapping issues. PJ is obviously different depending on model and settings and all kinds of other things. I don't have any real knowledge in that realm at all.

[flossy_cake]

I've an app here (https://bitbucket.org/CalibrationTools/calibration-tools/src/master/) which lets you fine tune the near-black shadow detail with auto day/night presets.

Personally I'm using 2.4 for night with a slight boost in the shadows. I'd caution not to boost too much though, as doing so will introduce hue and saturation errors due to the way 1d LUTs work (the app uses the vcgt which is a 1d LUT). Only 3d LUT or pixel shader can avoid that.

App also lets you enable/adjust driver dithering for Nvidia, which is important to avoid banding when adjusting the near-black range.

[LenniePaz]

If I'm using an Epson 5050ub, what settings should I be using with image upscaling, and chroma upscaling, for 4k content? I have an RTX2060 Super.

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[huhn]

there is no image upscalingin this case it's just chroma i like super XBr 100 AR for chroma very cheap and the best for me.

[LenniePaz]

there is no image upscalingin this case it's just chroma i like super XBr 100 AR for chroma very cheap and the best for me.Does AR stand for anti-ringing? Also, for 1080p content, is NGU Sharp medium a good choice ?

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[Asmodian]

Yes, AR is anti-ringing. NGU Sharp is a good option for image upscaling, your 2060 should be able to use high as well (if it looks better to you).

[LenniePaz]

Yes, AR is anti-ringing. NGU Sharp is a good option for image upscaling, your 2060 should be able to use high as well (if it looks better to you).In the image upscaling section, where are you saying I can use high, in the chroma drop-down box?

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[ryrynz]

where are you saying I can use high, in the chroma drop-down box?

No, luma, that's the most important.

[LenniePaz]

Yes, AR is anti-ringing. NGU Sharp is a good option for image upscaling, your 2060 should be able to use high as well (if it looks better to you).I set it to very high, and my 2060 is handling it with no problem.

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[LenniePaz]

I noticed something weird today, when I double click the video, making the screen smaller, so I can get to the MadVR settings. Down in the task bar, there are 3 icons for LAV splitter, 3 for LAV audio, and 3 for LAV audio, while a video is playing. When I move the mouse over the icons, they all disappear, except one of each does stay. Why would extra icons be showing up in the first place?

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[huhn]

that's just an issue which how the player was closed using lavfilter widnows simply didn't notice it is gone.

if at all it's an issue with lavfilter trigger by the player.

[Damien147]

For 720p on UHD display with NGU sharp what do you think gives more natural looking image?Doubling and upscaling with Jinc or direct quadruple and downscaling with SSIM 1D AR Linear Light?

[Asmodian]

Doubling and upscaling with Jinc.

[Damien147]

OK,thank you.

[Damien147]

....and for lower than 720p is direct quadruple with Jinc the right choice?I am looking for natural image.

[Asmodian]

For a natural image I prefer NGU AA, especially for <720p content.

If using NGU Sharp, etc. direct quadruple is faster, but lower quality. Doubling twice is preferred.

[SamuriHL]

Just understand that 720 upscaling to 2160 is brutal on hardware so you may have to lower things to balance it out. This is why profiles are preferred so you can tweak per resolution. I ended up lowering chroma to medium so that I could crank up upscaling NGU Sharp on 720. I don't think my 2070 allowed me to go to very high if I remember right but most people can't tell the difference between high and very high anyway.

[Damien147]

Yes,I use medium too.I haven't tried NGU AA but if it gives more natural image that's what I want.Chroma NGU AA medium,luma NGU AA medium and quadrupling ....4.0x(or bigger).Am I fine like that?I mean for everything.

[SamuriHL]

You tell us. :) How does that look to you on your equipment and environment?

[Damien147]

Just finished an animation movie in full HD and I really enjoyed the picture.On lower resolutions I see a more natural and less sharp picture compared to ngu sharp but in the right way.Is ngu AA quadruple ....4.0x(or bigger) the recommended or it's better to disable it?I aim for a natural picture.

[LenniePaz]

What is NV12, 8 bit, 4:2:0(DXVA11)? That's what I see in the OSD, when I play a 1080p rip. I get P010, 10 bit, 4:2:0 when I play a 4k rip. Is that normal ?

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[Asmodian]

Chroma NGU AA medium,luma NGU AA medium and quadrupling ....4.0x(or bigger).Am I fine like that?I mean for everything.

This is close to what I use for everything, after much testing. :)

NGU AA does not have a direct quadrupling. I use double again for scaling above 3.0x. This is on a 3090.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/madVR_NGU_AA.png

Is ngu AA quadruple ....4.0x(or bigger) the recommended or it's better to disable it?I aim for a natural picture.

I do like using NGU AA quadruple for 3.0x scaling, using SSIM for downscaling. This is a good option for natural 720p -> 4K scaling.

[Damien147]

I trust you and I am gonna use your settings but on medium because I can't go higher.Thank you very much guys.:)

[LordX2]

So interestingly, jumping to BT.2020 output for my tone mapped image increased the rendering times by about 10-15%.

My poor little GTX 1650 Super was already at its max, so I had to drop Chroma NGU AA down to Low to get it back to the 30ms range.

Does it make sense that the rendering time increased?

I may be biting the bullet and upgrading my video card soon. I remember a year ago people having some issues with the Nvidia 3000 series cards - is this still an issue if I am using an old beta (beta 113)?

Or was it rectified via nvidia drivers etc? Asmodian, I noticed you mentioned you had a 3090.

[ryrynz]

I may be biting the bullet and upgrading my video card soon. I remember a year ago people having some issues with the Nvidia 3000 series cards - is this still an issue if I am using an old beta (beta 113)?


Sounds like you need to, 3060 or above will fix you up nicely.. and no major issues with 30 series, I do have my Ctrl-J menu flicker and mess up occasionally though but it's a minor.

[Asmodian]

Yes, I don't have any major issues with my 3090 either. There might have been a couple drivers with odd behavior, but I don't remember ever having issues with madVR that couldn't be solved by changing the number of frames presented (set to 1) or changing GPU options.

Now everything is working well in Windows 11 and the newest drivers.

[LordX2]

So I bit the bullet and ordered a RTX 3060 (not Ti) with 12Gb video ram. So quite the jump from the 4gb I have now.

Just curious about settings to crank once the card arrives. Obviously I will increase the Chroma and Luma to NGU high(est) and see how that works with rendering times.

For my HDR to SDR tone mapping - I like to keep it as close to 'natural' as possible (I didn't like the beta curves). I have it on Desaturate 1, and the only other setting on is Highlight Recovery at High.

Are there any other tone mapping settings that I should consider raising? That are quality related only VS taste?

[huhn]

Vram is litearally the least thing madVR ever cares about.

don't waste your time onm NGU high for chroma.

[LenniePaz]

So I bit the bullet and ordered a RTX 3060 (not Ti) with 12Gb video ram. So quite the jump from the 4gb I have now.



Just curious about settings to crank once the card arrives. Obviously I will increase the Chroma and Luma to NGU high(est) and see how that works with rendering times.



For my HDR to SDR tone mapping - I like to keep it as close to 'natural' as possible (I didn't like the beta curves). I have it on Desaturate 1, and the only other setting on is Highlight Recovery at High.



Are there any other tone mapping settings that I should consider raising? That are quality related only VS taste?You could have saved some money, and got an RTX2060 Super. I'm running pretty high settings with it, with no issues.

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[LordX2]

Vram is litearally the least thing madVR ever cares about.

don't waste your time onm NGU high for chroma.

The 4GB VRAM was definitely a problem for me while trying to tone map and have chroma and luma upscaling. I was absolutely hitting the limit on the card - and had to back off buffered frames etc just to free up enough VRAM

[mark0077]

Hi guys, I see mixed results regarding windows 11 and madVR. I have just switched to windows 11 a few days ago and am quite happy in general. I have updated to the latest madVR beta as of a few days ago. I am finding however that I am seeing a lot of frame drops, but mostly when I have a window open on top of madVR (eg if a movie is playing in mpc-be + madVR and if I right click and open say the madVR settings window, the frames start dropping like crazy). Its hard to explain as it seems to be worse when I'm in fullscreen windowed as opposed to a smaller size window. Then it might go away after a few seconds.

This is with a C1 77", 5950x, MSI RTX 3080 and latest nvidia drivers 496.49.

The render and present jump from ~14ms and 6ms respectively up to about 30ms and 50ms respectively (but it fluctuates up and down) when a window is open above madVR like the madVR settings window.

I couldn't find this specific scenario when searching so hoping I'm not the only one. This was upgraded from a windows 10 of >1 year old which was very stable I have to say and didn't have this issue.

[ryrynz]

Vram is litearally the least thing madVR ever cares about.



Don't have a choice with 3060, GPU manufacturers need to push more and more RAM anyway. 8GB on a GPU isn't much future proofing. 3060Ti is the better buy for MadVR but you have to want to spend that extra.

[LordX2]

Don't have a choice with 3060, GPU manufacturers need to push more and more RAM anyway. 8GB on a GPU isn't much future proofing. 3060Ti is the better buy for MadVR but you have to want to spend that extra.

There was a lot to consider (including availability and my current power supply and case size etc.)

I just want to push the new card to its limits in terms of video quality.

[ryrynz]

Nobody with a 3090 is being hassled about having 24GB [emoji23] New higher end cards will ALWAYS have more RAM than you will need short term and that's entirely the point of it, along with the fact GPU RAM is tied to bus width so you get weird configs like a 3060 with 12GB and a 3070 with 8GB [emoji28] as long as you have a product that does what you need and want that's all that matters, spend your money however you want.

[huhn]

The 4GB VRAM was definitely a problem for me while trying to tone map and have chroma and luma upscaling. I was absolutely hitting the limit on the card - and had to back off buffered frames etc just to free up enough VRAM

which has zero effect on image quality Vram is not important.

There was a lot to consider (including availability and my current power supply and case size etc.)

I just want to push the new card to its limits in terms of video quality.
the PSU power is pretty much a myth created by nvidia by breaking the PCIe spec by accidant but a lot even good 800 watt PSU shut down not because it can't deliver enough power no because it will shut down because nothing should ever ask for so much power over 8 pin PCIe connector in such a burst ever.

if you know what you are doing you could use a proper 450 watt PSU with a 3080 and a normal 65 watt CPU with no issues at all

[LordX2]

which has zero effect on image quality Vram is not important.

So, what should I be focused on for quality?