madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[namaiki]

But my whole setup is set to use tv levels so no expansion should be needed?

Your graphics card seems to be outputting PC levels, so you must expand from TV to PC to get black.

[Peekstra]

But when I use EVR instead of madVR, MPC-HC's tvlevels are used and the blacks are correct.

[namaiki]

But when I use EVR instead of madVR, MPC-HC's tvlevels are used and the blacks are correct.

If you mean 0-255 is selected for output range (in MPC-HC renderer options which only applies to EVR-CP and possibly EVR Sync and VMR9(renderless)), then that means it's being expanded.

[Peekstra]

No, I use the 16-235 output range (TV levels) with EVR-CP to get correct blacks. So it's strange that I need to use 0-255 levels in madVR when I leave all the other settings alone.

[namaiki]

No, I use the 16-235 output range (TV levels) with EVR-CP to get correct blacks. So it's strange that I need to use 0-255 levels in madVR when I leave all the other settings alone.

What happens if you change EVR-CP to 0-255? (on my PC with Intel graphics, regardless of option selected, levels are always expanded)

Also, might you happen to be using CoreAVC? (make sure that input and output are both set to TV levels, and none on "Auto detect")

[Thunderbolt8]

how does it look when using other renderes, other than EVR and madVR? maybe EVR is wrong here?

and does this behaviour actually change when using 3dlut files for TV and PC levels?

[Peekstra]

What happens if you change EVR-CP to 0-255? (on my PC with Intel graphics, regardless of option selected, levels are always expanded)

Also, might you happen to be using CoreAVC? (make sure that input and output are both set to TV levels, and none on "Auto detect")

I'll try the 0-255 setting, but it should give wrong levels when the beamer is set to HDMI range normal instead of expanded, right?

how does it look when using other renderes, other than EVR and madVR? maybe EVR is wrong here?

and does this behaviour actually change when using 3dlut files for TV and PC levels?

I hope to be able to do some testing on both suggestions later this week.

[leeperry]

I can also easily get 0.32 to freeze when looping an A/B section in exclusive mode w/ PotPlayer...but it never freezes w/ the debug version :o

After +10 loops, it freezes at the end of the loop and I have to kill PotPlayer from the task manager.
This could be due to a bug in PotP, I'll run more tests on my previously problematic files: http://www.sat-universe.com/showpost.php?p=711140&postcount=45
Fixed a problem where AB repeat display incorrectly

[Mark_A_W]

No, I use the 16-235 output range (TV levels) with EVR-CP to get correct blacks. So it's strange that I need to use 0-255 levels in madVR when I leave all the other settings alone.


Please be aware that madshi has (correctly) labelled the levels controls in reverse to everyone else.

I want my levels unmolested (no expansion, black at 16), so in madVR I pick "TV".

However if ffdshow was doing the conversion to RGB I would pick "PC Levels" in ffdshow.

Just pick the one that gives you the correct result and check for banding using a smooth ramp pattern.

[Gser]

Please be aware that madshi has (correctly) labelled the levels controls in reverse to everyone else.

I want my levels unmolested (no expansion, black at 16), so in madVR I pick "TV".

However if ffdshow was doing the conversion to RGB I would pick "PC Levels" in ffdshow.

Just pick the one that gives you the correct result and check for banding using a smooth ramp pattern.

The expansion is quite nice actually but only if you have a high contrast monitor and no backlight bleeding like me. Twas horrible on my old monitor.

[Mark_A_W]

The expansion is quite nice actually but only if you have a high contrast monitor and no backlight bleeding like me. Twas horrible on my old monitor.


I have analogue displays for watching video, a 24" crt monitor and a crt projector.

The expansion does nothing for me except add banding.
I don't get any extra contrast as I adjust the peak white to suit the projector (a tradeoff of tube wear/focus vs. output).
And I adjust the black level so that 16 is black.

You should always adjust your brightness (black level) on your display after fiddling with levels.

[fairchild]

For me to get BTB and WTW with MadVR, when watching stuff on my TV, I make sure to use TV levels. Then of course you calibrate to make sure you have the right black levels. The negative about this is if I ever want to watch something on my PC monitor, I don't have the proper levels (since for PC monitors you need to make sure MadVR is using PC levels) so I have incorrect black levels. The quick fix for me is I just switch the renderer to either EVR or Haali which I have set to PC levels.

[hdboy]

the whole levels thing is utterly confusing to me. Is there a free ramp video I can use to check? thanks

[leeperry]

the whole levels thing is utterly confusing
the first option means "untouched levels" and the second does TV>PC conversion.

[fps]

the whole levels thing is utterly confusing to me. Is there a free ramp video I can use to check? thanks
You can test with the files from this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1230259#post1230259).

[dansrfe]

to get right levels (I hope we can finish this endless discussion and talk about things more relevant to madVR):

1. set the screen to "graphics" mode or anything like that then adjust it to what you think looks good. calibrate the display using a professional calibration system or use your eyes and graphics card settings. set output in graphics card to RGB or RGB 4:4:4 PC levels to any tv other than a crt tv.

2. use ffdshow-mt for avc decoding and stop using coreavc.

3. use pc output levels for everything in madvr except for a crt tv.

4. relax and breathe.

[ianken]

3. use pc output levels for everything in madvr except for a crt tv.

4. relax and breathe.

3) should be "consumer non-PC display device" or something like that. I use TV levels for my plasma, becuase it is calibrated to TV levels, which is what every other consumer video device uses.

TV levels is for consumer video devices like big ass TV, LCD TVs, Projectors, etc. Anything meant to work along side your run of the mill Sony DVD player or cable box.

[namaiki]

My LCD TV does PC levels from VGA input, and TV levels from HDMI input.

[dansrfe]

well tv vs pc levels on lcd, plasma tv's are based on what setting you have the tv at. personally I would want to see the whole range even if madVR does have to expand the levels. my lcd tv does pc levels via hdmi. the plasma im getting will have an option to receive pc or tv levels via hdmi and of course all pc levels means RGB signal.

[Qaq]

I've set it to PC levels based on this:
technical discussion:
... But converting YCbCr to RGB increases bitdepth. Not only from 8bit to maybe 9bit or 10bit. Actually YCbCr -> RGB conversion gives us floating point data! And not even HDMI 1.4 can transport that. So we have to convert the data down to some integer bitdepth, e.g. 16bit or 10bit or 8bit.

[dansrfe]

I've set it to PC levels based on this:

precisely another reason to set everything at RGB 4:4:4 PC Levels once and for all.

[de66ka]

Hi all,
I'm using MadVr since the early versions. This week I recognized, that bitmap based subtitles didn't work with MadVR (0.34). They are not visible. With text based subtitles there's no problem. The subtitles are inside Matroska-files (MKV) with video and audio.
Im using PotPlayer (1.5.25819), ffdshow (rev. 3562)and Haali Matroskasplitter (v1.10.262.12) on WIN7 (X86).
Is this only a problem of mine???

Best regards
Axel

[kokotas]

Go to preferences->subtitle and choose
Subtitle output video: Display on video(TV-OUT).

[chogster]

Guys, quick question about resizing. Does madVR do the resizing, or am I supposes to select one of the video frame options within MPC-HC i.e., touch window from inside? Without selecting the latter I don't see any form of resizing.

Cheers

[Peekstra]

the first option means "untouched levels" and the second does TV>PC conversion.


If this info could be added to madVR's GUI it would really help to clarify the level settings! :thanks:

[leeperry]

If this info could be added to madVR's GUI it would really help to clarify the level settings
nah, it's like Reclock and its confusing messages("resampling to 24.000fps" when you run it off a 23.976Hz multiple refresh rate)..it forces end-users to become active and ask in the public threads :p

[dansrfe]

nah, it's like Reclock and its confusing messages("resampling to 24.000fps" when you run it off a 23.976Hz multiple refresh rate)..it forces end-users to become active and ask in the public threads :p

I agree. Also in case someone is looking for a easy way to always get full screen before ffdshow renders the subtitles (in order to get your max resolution for your subtitles), you can use this function that I made: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=157872

It's pretty straightforward to use and uses Spline64Resize. You can change it to Spline36Resize if you want by editing the script.

[de66ka]

Go to preferences->subtitle and choose
Subtitle output video: Display on video(TV-OUT).

I'm really blind. Thank's for openeing my eyes.

Axel

[Hypernova]

Guys, quick question about resizing. Does madVR do the resizing, or am I supposes to select one of the video frame options within MPC-HC i.e., touch window from inside? Without selecting the latter I don't see any form of resizing.

Cheers

I think MPC-HC setting determine what target resolution will be, but madVR do all the real calculation.

[namaiki]

I think MPC-HC setting determine what target resolution will be, but madVR do all the real calculation.

This.

[THX-UltraII]

can someone post his madVR settings where you do get sharpening but without artifacts?

[fairchild]

can someone post his madVR settings where you do get sharpening but without artifacts?

I use SoftCubic 100 for chroma upscaling

I use Spline 4 with luma upscaling and downscaling

[leeperry]

can someone post his madVR settings where you do get sharpening but without artifacts?
chroma: SoftCubic100
luma: Lanzcos4 for downscaling / Lanczos3 for upscaling. Anything more rings like hell to my eyes.

I use LSF for sharpening, much more efficient http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif

[fairchild]

chroma: SoftCubic100
luma: Lanzcos4 for downscaling / Lanczos3 for upscaling. Anything more rings like hell to my eyes.

I use LSF for sharpening, much more efficient http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif

FYI, Lanczos has more ringing than Spline. At least that's what the description in MadVR shows and that's why I switched from Lanczos to Spline.

What's LSF btw?

Edit: NM, found what LSF was. I never have really gotten into Avisynth. I figured all those extra features are mostly pointless when you are watching digital sources (such as 720p or 1080p encoded XVID/X264 videos).

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=142706

[leeperry]

FYI, Lanczos has more ringing than Spline. At least that's what the description in MadVR shows and that's why I switched from Lanczos to Spline.

O RLY? I thought I read that the best compromise was Lanczos3...my avisynth scripting is pretty darn sharp, but OK I'll try again. I don't want to rely on a resizing algorithm to sharpen up the picture, though.

PS: yeah, spline gives more aliasing than lanczos from what mVR says.

found what LSF was. I never have really gotten into Avisynth. I figured all those extra features are mostly pointless when you are watching digital sources

LSF is such a smart algorithm that it also sharpens up the motion blur...together w/ Reclock and mVR, it's a god send http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif

[dansrfe]

Spline @ 3 taps on all. You will not see ringing unless you're sources have not been encoded properly or you don't have the right setup and are sending madVR garbage. Calibration can also help with this issue as well. In addition, having the latest drivers and setting them up properly can prevent a lot of issues.

[Thunderbolt8]

a question regarding bitdeph, at the front page its said that madvr supports 16-bit. but when I play HD videos on my LCD TV, then reclock (1.8.7.3) tells me 12-bit for video information. so is there some misconfiguration of my system?

radeon mobility HD 4850, catalyst 10.11,win xp prof, connected to TV via VGA-cable @1360x768, madvr 0.32, 3dlut use, video renderers and resampler of reclock bypassed.

[leeperry]

at the front page its said that madvr supports 16-bit. but when I play HD videos on my LCD TV, then reclock (1.8.7.3) tells me 12-bit for video information.
YUY2 is 16-bit per pixel, YV12 12-bit per pixel. mVR only accept YV12 input, does all the computing in 16bit and then dithers to 8bit RGB.
Spline @ 3 taps on all. You will not see ringing
alright, more tests to go then! my displays are fully calibrated using a brand new i1d2, no worries..Color.HCFR and ARGYLL ftw ;)

PS: I upscale over my display native res in ffdshow, and then let mVR downscale in order to improve my Avisynth scripts accuracy...ffdshow only has "spline", you can't select the number of taps.

PPS: indeed, spline upscale in ffdshow and then spline3 downscale in mVR looks better I think...less noisy and more details visible apparently :cool:

[Thunderbolt8]

YUY2 is 16-bit per pixel, YV12 12-bit per pixel. mVR only accept YV12 input, does all the computing in 16bit and then dithers to 8bit RGB.
hm if madvr only accepts YV12 input, how come I could see on a reclock screenshot "23.976 fps, 1920x1080p, YUY2 16 bits" ?

[janos666]

It's hard to believe that an original->very_big->target can be any better than an original->target resize.
May be it can fool you but I think you loose some of the original information: Upscaling produces some interpolated (fake) informations. When you downscale it, you loose some informations of the big upscaled image. In an average situation, you have to loose some of the original information too (some interpolated fake information will remain while some original information will be lost).
May be it helps to sharpen or soften the image. But I think you should choose the resize algorithm according to your taste (softer or sharper result) instead of this "trick".
But this is only my theory. And, of course, you are free to do whatever you want... :D

[leeperry]

It's hard to believe that an original->very_big->target can be any better than an original->target resize
it's called Supersampling...most Avisynth script support it natively: http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Supersampling

on LSF, it makes a pretty drastic improvement..LSF being plagued w/ jaggies at 1.0, and it's pretty sweet to have the last downscaling part done by the GPU :)

if madvr only accepts YV12 input, how come I could see on a reclock screenshot "23.976 fps, 1920x1080p, YUY2 16 bits" ?
got screenshot? I don't see how that's possible.

[6233638]

chroma: SoftCubic100
luma: Lanzcos4 for downscaling / Lanczos3 for upscaling. Anything more rings like hell to my eyes.

I use LSF for sharpening, much more efficient http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gifI disagree. With SoftCubic100, the lower resolution chroma is blurred much more than any luma information, so red/blue lines will be thicker and less saturated than green for example.

From my extensive testing, Bicubic75 produces the best results when chroma detail is compared to luma. After that it is spline, but spline has an 'artificial' look to it due to everything being drawn as curves.


For luma upscaling, I prefer SoftCubic50. Unlike most resampling algorithms this does not introduce much if any ringing into the picture, exaggerate noise or other compression artefacts, and keeps aliasing to a minimum. It is the closest result to what the source material looks like when viewed at native resolution on a good CRT.

It seems like this would be a good starting point as well if you plan on doing additional sharpening processing on top.

For luma downscaling I would use lanczos4. (or perhaps 8 but my system cannot handle it)

Spline @ 3 taps on all. You will not see ringing unless you're sources have not been encoded properly or you don't have the right setup and are sending madVR garbage. Calibration can also help with this issue as well. In addition, having the latest drivers and setting them up properly can prevent a lot of issues.To me, spline looks very unnatural due to it converting everything to curves, fine details look especially bad.

[leeperry]

I like the idea of having the softest possible chroma + the sharpest luma...now, I might be willing to make compromises. I'm still undecided on spline luma up/down, but I like what I see so far...it still might look unnatural indeed.

madshi is always full of mysteries, but he recently said that maybe the most faithful to the source chroma wasn't the softest...need to chew on this, as he didn't seem too willing to back up this statement :D

[airblaster]

Hello,

I just noticed that madVR upscales videos if display width (1280px in my case) is the same as video width (1280px).
Is there any need for upscaling in this kind of situation?

@madshi: thank you very much for releasing madVR, it is the best video renderer I've ever used :-)


Cheers
airblaster

[Mangix]

chroma has to get upsampled. luma stays the same.

[fairchild]

I can't decide what looks better to my eyes. I want image quality nirvana :devil: :

chroma upscaling= Bicubic 75
luma upscaling = SoftCubic 50
luma downscaling= Lanczos 4 or 8

or

chroma upscaling= Spline 3
luma upscaling = Spline 3
luma downscaling= Spline 3

while using AviSynth LFS script (for both setups)

LimitedSharpenFaster(ss_x=1.0,ss_y=1.0,strength=40)

[leeperry]

I've done a bit more testing, I still very much enjoy the softest chroma + sharpest luma combo...it gives the most stunning PQ to my eyes :)

upscaling in ffdshow: bicubic 0.0 for chroma, spline for luma

in mVR: softcubic100 for chroma, spline3 for luma up/down

I use CRT and DLP, no LCD..

[dansrfe]

Hello,

I just noticed that madVR upscales videos if display width (1280px in my case) is the same as video width (1280px).
Is there any need for upscaling in this kind of situation?

@madshi: thank you very much for releasing madVR, it is the best video renderer I've ever used :-)


Cheers
airblaster

chroma has to get upsampled. luma stays the same.

@ airblaster: When the width or height of the video source matches one of the respective dimensions of the screen then madVR will NOT upscale anything.

Edit: @ Mangix: The video isn't upscaled but the chroma is upscampled. That's correct. That will happen with everything you feed to madVR since it does it's own internal conversions from YV12 4:2:2 -> RGB 4:4:4.

@ ALL: please understand that madVR resizes essentially to what YOU tell it to. if you put it at full screen and the scenario that airbender mentioned above is your situation, eg. (1920 x something on a 1080p or 1920 x 1200 screen or a 1280 x something on a 720p screen) then it will NOT upscale anything. If you have altered the viewing window from full-screen for full resolution video or from the normal size of the video then it will upscale/downscale. very easy concept to understand, don't understand why some people aren't getting this and are getting confused.

[iSeries]

dansrfe - I was under the impression that chroma has to be upsampled when expanding from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4.

[6233638]

Chroma is always upsampled even when Luma is not.