madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Warner306]

You might want to wait for the next build and try HDR -> SDR. It should be available soon and there is still room to improve.

[jmone]

@Asmodian: Neither 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 appear when displaying chromares.png (nvidia set to 1080p, RGB at any bitdepth). There is some slight horizontal lines where 4:2:2 would appear.

@Warner306: I presume you are refering to the discussion over at AVS with madshi on the Madvr HDR to SDR mapping (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector.html) thread?

[Asmodian]

@Asmodian: Neither 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 appear when displaying chromares.png (nvidia set to 1080p, RGB at any bitdepth). There is some slight horizontal lines where 4:2:2 would appear.

Is that your native resolution? You need everything at its native resolution, the image in a window if necessary.

[huhn]

try to set sharpness to 50% or zero and try the image again.

[Manni]

Any, advice on MadVR / nvidia settings and versions for JVC X7500? After trying different combos of versions and settings I can't seem to find a combo that:
- Minimises Repeated Frames (eg custom modes or a nvidia version that is close)
- NVidia Settings that stick for RGB 12-Bit for both UHD@23.796 / YCbCr422 for UHD@50/60p (or just RGB 8-Bit as I only have the one UHD HDR BD @ 60p)
- Windows HDR that does not keep turning ON when the video finishes playing and you are back to the desktop

If the above can not be done, should I try HDR to SDR conversion in madVR, or... just use YCbCr422 for all resolutions, or.... ?

Currently I'm also "stuck" on madVR V92.4 (that comes bundled with JRiver) as the most recent madVR versions have a bug where Menu Item Text can be drawn off screen.... I've a 1070 on this HTPC.


Use 385.28 (that's the last driver that works well with the JVCs for HTPC use)
Use 2160p23 RGB 4:4:4 12bits at 23p for playback. The driver will automatically switch to RGB 4:4:4 8bits for 50/60p if you use 385.28 and it will stick.
While in another refresh rate (I use 30p), create a custom resolution with MadVR for 2160p23 using the EDID/CTA settings, that's the only thing that works with the JVC, it should give you around one hour without a frame drop/repeat at 4K23p
Do not use your projector at 1080p, these are NOT 1080p projectors unlike what has been suggested and you will lose a lot of MadVR's goodness if you do this. Send 2160p to the JVC (if your GPU is powerful enough to upscale in good quality to that resolution, which a 1070 should be able to do) and you'll get something like 3K (in between 2K and 4K, but significantly better than 2K thanks to eshift), especially when fed a well upscaled MadVR picture.
If you have a good custom curve for HDR (see the JVC Calibration thread for the RS500 etc models on AVS), you can use HDR passthrough in MadVR. Make sure you always leave HDR OFF in the OS, MadVR will switch HDR on and off automatically.
Or you can wait until MadVR's next build and use HDR to SDR conversion with pixel shader. It's still a work in progress but it's starting to be a viable alternative to passthrough with the JVCs. Wait until it arrives on jRiver, there is no rush to leave passthrough if you have good custom curves on your JVC.

[jmone]

@Asmodian Sorry - thought you meant the native res of the PNG. The JVC x7500 takes a native 4K signal but it uses e-shift to display a 4K image (native 3xDILA 1080p Panels). Anyway with UHD RGB I can see both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 but 4:4:4 is darker. The tint also changes between 8 and 12 bit with 12 Bit looking Pinker and 8 Bit looking Red.

[jmone]

Thanks Manni. Will take try this advice now and report back.

[Manni]

Thanks Manni. Will take try this advice now and report back.

Make sure you use DDU in safe mode and select clean installation before installing 385.28. You want every trace of the newer driver to be removed.

[jmone]

Yup done that (DDU in safe mode) and it is looking good using what you just posted (just running a UHD BD now to check the frame repeats). The only stuff that I guess will not work is titles like Billy Lynn (UHD @ 60p with HRD). I've read the JVC Calibration thread and got the Spyder5 Ultra ready to go now that the basic config seems to be working well - Thanks for the clear post all in one place :)

Edit - and resetup and test BD - 3D

[huhn]

@Asmodian Sorry - thought you meant the native res of the PNG. The JVC x7500 takes a native 4K signal but it uses e-shift to display a 4K image (native 3xDILA 1080p Panels). Anyway with UHD RGB I can see both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 but 4:4:4 is darker. The tint also changes between 8 and 12 bit with 12 Bit looking Pinker and 8 Bit looking Red.

you have to use the image at it's native resolution and the projector too.

try the sharpness settings out like said before. seeing both is a clear indicator of subsampling and most likely sharpening


looks like newer ones use 1080p native not 1960x2160 native so they have to shift more to get to the same result but if done correctly it is the same as a native UHD image just less bright.
the sub sampling test should work at 1080p too.

[jmone]

Thanks Huhn but I think Manni's setup has me sorted!

[njfoses]

If i have a rec709 lut in the rec709 slot along with pass HDR through to display checked (full HDR compatible video chain) will madVR ignore the lut when playing 4k HDR? I only want the lut active when I am actually watching rec709 content and not when watching 4K HDR.

[nevcairiel]

The OSD will indicate if and which 3DLUT is being used, easy enough for you to confirm.

[njfoses]

The OSD will indicate if and which 3DLUT is being used, easy enough for you to confirm.

Yea i noticed it does show the rec709 LUT in the OSD when playing HDR so i guess i need to change the config when i watch HDR.

[Slysoft]

Hey guys. I've noticed a problem with my madvr setup and I was hoping someone had some insight for me.

I have a 144hz monitor and while using madvr and xysubfilter I was getting dropped frames the first time subtitles were displayed. It always happened at the exact moment the first subtitle was shown and never happened afterwards, nor did it happen if I rewound to the beginning and watched the same scene again.

I changed my refresh rate to 60hz and the problem went away, so I assume this has something to do with that. I also tested at 120hz and I did not notice a problem. Now I'm not sure if this is actually a madvr problem or an xysubfilter problem seeing as it only occurs with subtitles and also doesn't happen if I switch to the internal subtitle renderer in mpc-hc.

I also don't get this problem if I playback with mpv, but obviously that doesn't support madvr.

Thanks for the help.

[huhn]

showing subtitle the first times add the hole process and it looks like all buffered frames have to be re rendered. dropping frames in this case it pretty "normal".

thsi should only affact aasfilter mod and xy subfilter.

i can't remember it but i'm pretty sure i brought this up a couple of years ago.

[Slysoft]

showing subtitle the first times add the hole process and it looks like all buffered frames have to be re rendered. dropping frames in this case it pretty "normal".

thsi should only affact aasfilter mod and xy subfilter.

i can't remember it but i'm pretty sure i brought this up a couple of years ago.

Yeah that makes sense, but it is weird to me that I don't drop frames at all unless I'm running at 144hz.

[huhn]

at 60 you have about 16 ms to fix it at 144 hz you have less than 8 ms.

[Asmodian]

Yea i noticed it does show the rec709 LUT in the OSD when playing HDR so i guess i need to change the config when i watch HDR.

There is an OSD bug that shows the SDR 3DLUT being used even with using HDR passthrough, but the 3DLUT is not actually being used (a test 3DLUT that should change the image a lot does not show any effect). The SDR 3DLUTs are only active for HDR content when madVR first converts HDR to SDR by either method.

[huhn]

just use control+shift+alt+3 to test it.

[waldnebel]

I came across something strange while letting madVR upscale a cute little 240p movie to 4k resolution. Please have a look at the following output:


luma -> NGU Sharp (very high) 4x -> Jinc AR


As I understand it the NGU sharp algorithm is applied 4 times and on the third round my little 240p movie should have a height above 2160 pixels. At this point downscaling is quite an interesting part. Why in the name of this planet is Jinc afterwards applied and no downscaling? I think I'm a little bit too stupid to get it.

EDIT: I have also a second question. Isn't it possible to apply pixel shaders while using D3D11 copy-back decoding? mpc-hc says it can't use pre or post resize pixel shaders and I simply don't know why.

[thighhighs]

I came across something strange while letting madVR upscale a cute little 240p movie to 4k resolution. Please have a look at the following output:

luma -> NGU Sharp (very high) 4x -> Jinc AR

As I understand it the NGU sharp algorithm is applied 4 times and on the third round my little 240p movie should have a height above 2160 pixels. At this point downscaling is quite an interesting part. Why in the name of this planet is Jinc afterwards applied and no downscaling? I think I'm a little bit too stupid to get it.


Here direct quadrupling: 240p x 4 = 960p. Jinc used for additional upscaling to target resolution.
Im not sure about ngu upscaling abilities after quadrupling step. Anyway quality is bad, because source resolution low and scaling factor big.

[el Filou]

I've tested NGU on "Ultra Low Definition" material, e.g. 360p YouTube, and it's just too weird, the picture looks like a watercolour painting.

[Manni]

Yup done that (DDU in safe mode) and it is looking good using what you just posted (just running a UHD BD now to check the frame repeats). The only stuff that I guess will not work is titles like Billy Lynn (UHD @ 60p with HRD). I've read the JVC Calibration thread and got the Spyder5 Ultra ready to go now that the basic config seems to be working well - Thanks for the clear post all in one place :)

Edit - and resetup and test BD - 3D

It will work fine for Billy Lynn if you disable HDR metadata with 4K60p content, otherwise you will get the magenta bug with the JVC. You also want to tell MadVR that dithering is 8bits, not 10bits in that case. I use profiles to do this automatically.

[njfoses]

There is an OSD bug that shows the SDR 3DLUT being used even with using HDR passthrough, but the 3DLUT is not actually being used (a test 3DLUT that should change the image a lot does not show any effect). The SDR 3DLUTs are only active for HDR content when madVR first converts HDR to SDR by either method.

Thank you!

[jmone]

It will work fine for Billy Lynn if you disable HDR metadata with 4K60p content, otherwise you will get the magenta bug with the JVC. You also want to tell MadVR that dithering is 8bits, not 10bits in that case. I use profiles to do this automatically.

Thanks - I could do that, but so far I've only the one and it is not that great of a movie. I presume however the "better" option will be to use the HRD->SDR conversion option that is currently being work on (when it is ready) for all HDR content?

[leeperry]

dont think that card is a true 4k card, you'll only get a sub 60hz desktop at 4k, fine if you're not using your HTPC for anything else but I wonder if you'll have other issues with it not being a full 4k card with the increased HDMI bandwidth, you'll need to look into that.

you could pickup an RX 460 for about 60, you'll get NGU sharp low around 30ms rendering, that What I was getting prior.

EDIT pretty sure its HDMI 1.4 spec, unless there was a late HDMI 2.0 version?

Right thanks, but even a RX580 isn't all that faster than my o/c 7850(basically as fast as a 7870): http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-RX-580-vs-AMD-HD-7870/3923vs2161

only +54% in some benchmarks and apparently Polaris doesn't like NGU huh, I got all bells and whistles enabled(SSIM 2D, ED2, NGU, Luma & Chroma SuperRes) with my 7850 @1080p so I guess I'll have to throttle it all down a good bit for 2160p and even a RX580 wouldn't quite be the savior either as it would appear.

Apparently Club 3D make dongles that convert DP to HDMI 2.0 allowing 2160p60 on any semi-recent AMD so that's another option, hopefully hiccup-free :devil:

[Asmodian]

I've tested NGU on "Ultra Low Definition" material, e.g. 360p YouTube, and it's just too weird, the picture looks like a watercolour painting.

Which NGU? I prefer NGU Anti Aliasing for <SD.

[ryrynz]

Yes.. This is exactly the use case for NGU AA. You don't use normal or sharp NGU on resolutions that low.
Also you'll need to pay particular attention to your screen and madvr sharpness settings.

[huhn]

NGU sharp is known to show significant problems with flawed low res images like DVDs.
using RCA and add grain can help a lot.

EDIT: I have also a second question. Isn't it possible to apply pixel shaders while using D3D11 copy-back decoding? mpc-hc says it can't use pre or post resize pixel shaders and I simply don't know why.

shaders are done on the GPU is should work with all decoding types.

[Manni]

Thanks - I could do that, but so far I've only the one and it is not that great of a movie. I presume however the "better" option will be to use the HRD->SDR conversion option that is currently being work on (when it is ready) for all HDR content?

When it's ready, for sure.

[sniper]

"don't draw subtitles" on screenshots is not working

v0.92.14

Anybody else getting this? tried it on several different videos, anime w/ soft subs and also movies with srt file same results

[sneaker_ger]

What subtitle renderer are you using? The function doesn't work with subtitle filters that render on the video themselves ((xy-)vsfilter), only with those that use a separate subtitle interface (MPC-HC ISR, XySubFilter, AssFilter(Mod)).

[jmone]

When it's ready, for sure.

Had a play with the test builds over at AVS. Looks good though the rendering overhead of HDR-->SDR seems to much for my 1070 on UHD HDR 59.94 content. Can't get the render times down under the required 16ms for 59.94 content (all high 20ms+) regardless of the Chroma scaling used. Unless you have any ideas of combos that work with a 1070 it looks like a 1080/1180 will be the next purchase.

[Manni]

Had a play with the test builds over at AVS. Looks good though the rendering overhead of HDR-->SDR seems to much for my 1070 on UHD HDR 59.94 content. Can't get the render times down under the required 16ms for 59.94 content (all high 20ms+) regardless of the Chroma scaling used. Unless you have any ideas of combos that work with a 1070 it looks like a 1080/1180 will be the next purchase.

You need profiles to use less power with UHD @ 50/60p, for example with bilinear chroma etc. It should be just doable. Certainly not a problem for the 1080ti.

[jmone]

FYIW - I tried all the Chroma scaling options including bilinear - all in the 20ms+ on the 1070.

EDIT: Depending on the HDR-> SDR Settings (like using Clipping) you can almost get away with no drops on bilinear....

[huhn]

what are your nvidia powersettings?

[veggav]

What test builds?

I'm stuck with an older version of MadVR because the newer ones don't work with UHD BD menus with Jriver media center.

Is this a closed thing? Or can I also try newer builds here?

[ryrynz]

The test builds are for HDR tonemapping improvements, ain't gonna fix your problem. Just wait.

[jmone]

The fixes for the issue with BD Menus sometimes being off the screen is fixed in the test builds. Still it is best to wait till a new version is out and is packaged with JRiver.

[Warner306]

Are the rendering stats now accurate, for those of us who have seen them drop after the last Windows Update?

[heiseikiseki]

Are the rendering stats now accurate, for those of us who have seen them drop after the last Windows Update?

I see it drops two times. One is after update to Windows 10 1803 ,
another one is after update to the latest Nvidia Driver.
Now on my PC for none OC GTX1060
23.975fps with smooth motion
720p->1440p
chroma> NGU AA (low) +RCA (for free)
luma> NGU sharp (very high)
chroma> NGU sharp(med)
the rendering time is around 6.2ms.

[huhn]

can you make a screen of the OSD plz?

[heiseikiseki]

can you make a screen of the OSD plz?

https://i.imgur.com/YiszMGB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pRYpf1S.jpg


I don't why if I turn on the showadvancestep then the rendering time would be increased.

[huhn]

to be expeceted just using it the incress it.
but 720 is pretty boring for a 1060.

[Asmodian]

I don't why if I turn on the showadvancestep then the rendering time would increase.

To elaborate on what huhn said, ShowRenderSteps needs to measure how long each step takes and to do this an extra flush is needed after each step, this slows down rendering overall. This is only true when the OSD is open.

[heiseikiseki]

To elaborate on what huhn said, ShowRenderSteps needs to measure how long each step takes and to do this an extra flush is needed after each step, this slows down rendering overall. This is only true when the OSD is open.
Oh!! Thanks for the explain!

[zeus0r]

hey there!

HDR passthrough via madvr is working fine and it puts my TV into HDR mode like it should. problem is: the picture is waaay too dark then. in dim scenes you can't even recognize faces properly.

so i tried the same files with the TV's internal mediaplayer -> perfect picture, not that dark.

any idea what could cause this?

4k SDR clips look wonderful via mpc-hc so it definitely is a HDR-specific problem.

my setup:

- philips 55pos901 oled tv
- gtx 980
- win 7
- mpc-hc + lavfilters + madvr (latest versions)

[mclingo]

could it simply be that HDR is invoking a different profile on your TV which is set to FULL instead of LIMITED?

[Warner306]

I updated my driver and tried to do the manual method of creating a custom resolution.

First, I edited the EDID custom resolution created by madVR. The only thing that was different was the total number of pixels. This was entered and I played something. No change.

I deleted the custom resolution and started over. This time, when I finished, the driver entered the resolution as 23 Hz instead of 24 Hz. Still no go.

I then used CRU to create a custom resolution. It did not put anything into the GPU control panel, but the option to choose 24 Hz was removed, so it appeared to apply the correct EDID override. Played something and still no change.

So my apologies to the person I told to use the manual method of creating a custom resolution, as I couldn't figure it out, either.

The current driver doesn't seem to respond to anything but the default EDID. Not sure how common this is.

Custom resolutions are a total crapshoot...