madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) [Archive] - Page 359

pie1394

5th March 2013, 03:06

No one knows anything about my ReClock issue? Strange. Oh yeah, is there any reason that could make exclusive mode not work in madVR?

Edit: I've also updated the table of madVR algorithms chart - it includes smooth motion as well.

http://i.imgur.com/8aFjOEm.png

AR = Anti-ringing, LL = Linear Light, Linear Light (main row) refers to the option "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" in "trade quality for performance" under "rendering".

madshi has said... Don't use Smooth Motion if the display device is capable of handling 24 / 50 / 60 Hz contents properly.

It actually has some noticeable impacts on motion content resolution for CRT / PDP devices. The LCD TV owners might not be aware of this since most (cheap) LCD devices are not capable of producing the same motion resolution ability. Only some very expensive LCD TV sets do.

Mangix

5th March 2013, 08:39

No one knows anything about my ReClock issue? Strange. Oh yeah, is there any reason that could make exclusive mode not work in madVR?

Edit: I've also updated the table of madVR algorithms chart - it includes smooth motion as well.

http://i.imgur.com/8aFjOEm.png

AR = Anti-ringing, LL = Linear Light, Linear Light (main row) refers to the option "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" in "trade quality for performance" under "rendering".

I think going from Highest to High you should also disable Linear Light or Anti-Ringing. At least in my experience, Downscaling using that setup is quite demanding.

cosmitz

5th March 2013, 08:54

Hello everyone. This is a hard forum to get on to. :)

I'm using madVR with BSplayer on a Win7 Pro 32 bit machine with Aero enabled, dual monitor setup, it running on the secondary LCD monitor. Whenever i use madVR for playing any non-mkv videos (mp4/avi/flv) in fullscreen, and i try to set volume, skip forward/backward, bsplayer shows me a crash error, which i can click 'continue' on if i want and the movie continues to respond, but it is annoying as it disables any input until 'ignored' away. This only happens in fullscreen, to mention. Here's the log and sorry about the images, but couldn't find a .txt of it anywhere and copy pasting it was disabled:

http://img8.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390567-holder-259aad31a37e9cd3f136f3d55ad5c9ce.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390567&showlnk=0)http://img8.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390565-holder-762d543133f3959edd4f3553e0bcbb7b.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390565&showlnk=0)http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390566-holder-ec94efb895d6f2ed0047e817913ef840.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390566&showlnk=0)http://img3.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390564-holder-2bf1bb793e9edbdbe4a2b4cd9a279cb7.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390564&showlnk=0)http://img3.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390563-holder-5531db68ba02aa23a055dccb7c87e061.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390563&showlnk=0)http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390561-holder-871c59ff40df88ff6bca502c5f3194ff.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390561&showlnk=0)http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390562-holder-9097ffe1eb12e56ef03f7cb72c4d7354.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390562&showlnk=0)http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390560-holder-a8e88d3467111624c051641de58d9d93.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390560&showlnk=0)http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390559-holder-457a3406b81d78d8a3629e2ca6934a5f.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390559&showlnk=0)http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390557-holder-3d95158934bf9b910a635a8a80718166.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390557&showlnk=0)http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390558-holder-3b547a77bd53ac4e8b6209b07695857f.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390558&showlnk=0)http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390556-holder-650a41b6a86f0c265975ecbd4bd7c2d3.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390556&showlnk=0)http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390555-holder-26cdaf00d2234a45b3d50a42ef540b2e.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390555&showlnk=0)http://img3.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390553-holder-1794812e1b802116543f62d6b736f92f.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390553&showlnk=0)http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390554-holder-b452e35e41a8419956664ab83f0c27d4.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390554&showlnk=0)http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17390/17390552-holder-7e34e6ddada145e91faf37551f2b09cf.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=17390552&showlnk=0)

PS: If using EVR, i don't see this issue, but i see the inherent laggy-ness. -.-

Niyawa

5th March 2013, 09:37

I think going from Highest to High you should also disable Linear Light or Anti-Ringing. At least in my experience, Downscaling using that setup is quite demanding.
High and Highest are supposed to be demading. The very foundation of that chart is to be a reference for quality vs performance. If someone can't use High or Highest, then they can go for Mid, if they can't use that either, go for Low (which is madVR default) or go for Bilinear which is the fastest mode for everything.

madshi has said... Don't use Smooth Motion if the display device is capable of handling 24 / 50 / 60 Hz contents properly.

It actually has some noticeable impacts on motion content resolution for CRT / PDP devices. The LCD TV owners might not be aware of this since most (cheap) LCD devices are not capable of producing the same motion resolution ability. Only some very expensive LCD TV sets do.
Well, the graph is supposed to be a reference for those who have almost no idea what settings to use. I was going to include that information in my guide as a complement too - so I believe there's no worries in that aspect.

bugmen0t

5th March 2013, 09:39

I just want to report my finding:
With version 0.86.1 I reported a heavy increase of rendering times (no drops for me, just higher timings) in exclusive mode with FRC on and default flush settings.
Madshi recommended to increase 'present frames in advance' to 8 which did nothing.
Playing around with this setting I increased it even more and rendering times are back to normal!
Anyone able to explain this? Does the renderer need to wait for something presentation related?

jmartinr

5th March 2013, 10:06

Niyawa

5th March 2013, 10:32

Shouldn't 'lowest' come after 'low'?
Yup, that was a typo. Dunno how I didn't notice. Thanks.

http://i.imgur.com/jL2AeSE.png

Here's the fixed one!

DragonQ

5th March 2013, 11:12

I think going from Highest to High you should also disable Linear Light or Anti-Ringing. At least in my experience, Downscaling using that setup is quite demanding.
Hmm I have a pretty old GTS 250 and it can handle everything in the "High" band fine on a 1920x1200 screen.

Vyral

5th March 2013, 12:06

Hello everyone,
I need your opinion on something I've found on a tutorial : they set different outputs for lav and ffdshow. I don't understand the point doing that. Why not set the same outputs ?
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/860852Lav1.jpghttp://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/744265Output.jpg

Link : http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/VideoSon/Traitement-Video/tutoriel-ffdshow-avisynth-sujet_138425_1.htm

Pomegranate

5th March 2013, 12:42

Hmm I have a pretty old GTS 250 and it can handle everything in the "High" band fine on a 1920x1200 screen.

I have an old GTS 250 too, and without smooth motion and none of the "trade quality for performance" settings checked, it can handle everything, up to 1080p30, in the Highest band on a 1920x1080 display.

Inside the Nvidia Control Panel, I've set up "Adjust Video Image settings" as such:

http://i47.tinypic.com/6pnj48.png

Is that how it's supposed to be used? I also use CUVID inside LAV video.

DragonQ

5th March 2013, 13:09

I doubt those sliders make a difference but 1080p/30 isn't sufficient for me. Deinterlacing to 1080p/50 or 1080p/60 is necessary and with Jinc3 AR this takes way too long.

Pomegranate

5th March 2013, 13:33

When deinterlacing 1920x1080i50/60 to 1920x1080p50/60, with cuvid, I can use any setting for chroma upscaling, except for Jinc 3/4/8 AR. Bicubic75 AR is alright for interlaced content.

DragonQ

5th March 2013, 15:30

...which is exactly my point. You can't use the "Highest" settings with a GTS 250 unless you're happy with a maximum of 30 fps.

omarank

5th March 2013, 17:09

Hi Madshi

Thanks for the new version. Smooth Motion is working perfectly here for progressive content and interlaced video content. However, for telecined film content, I can see juddering on my system. If I understand correctly, on playing a 29.97 fps telecined content with madVR’s IVTC on, ideally madVR should decimate the video to 23.976 fps and then use Smooth Motion to display it on, say 60 Hz display. I have tried playing multiple telecined files, and the observation is same. Please let me know if any other information you need from my side.

Niyawa

5th March 2013, 18:20

...which is exactly my point. You can't use the "Highest" settings with a GTS 250 unless you're happy with a maximum of 30 fps.
Yup. I don't know who/why what goes beyond 30 fps. Do you?
Oh you do. Most average user don't even know that exists though. Just in case you missed it, the chart was made for a pack - so you get the point.

DragonQ

5th March 2013, 18:36

Yup. I don't know who/why what goes beyond 30 fps. Do you?
Probably at least 75% of broadcast TV.

Most average user don't even know that exists though. Just in case you missed it, the chart was made for a pack - so you get the point.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't disputing anything to do with the tables you posted. I was disputing the assertion that the nVidia GTS 250 can handle Jinc3 AR for chroma and luma. It can't (without compromise anyway).

Of course you could say "well no GPUs can handle those settings beyond a certain resolution" but I think a 1080p screen and the highest quality content widely available now (BDs & HDTV) provide a sensible test case.

Pomegranate

5th March 2013, 18:40

@ Niyawa : Your guide makes no mention of deinterlacing. When using Cuvid, you have the option of GPU deinterlacing, and turning it off inside madVR or vice-versa.

dansrfe

5th March 2013, 18:42

Isn't broadcast TV 59.94i which when taken to progressive is 29.976p? Why would anyone need to worry about 50p/60p?

Pomegranate

5th March 2013, 18:48

Because doing 59.94i -> 29.97p throws away half of the temporal resolution.

59.94i -> 59.94p preserves motion smoothness.

vomanci

5th March 2013, 18:50

Hi, my LCD monitor supports 1080i25 and 1080i29 . Should i add them to madvr and disable deinterlacing when are used or what?

Niyawa

5th March 2013, 18:57

Probably at least 75% of broadcast TV.
Heh, where I live we still suffer from PAL stuff.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't disputing anything to do with the tables you posted. I was disputing the assertion that the nVidia GTS 250 can handle Jinc3 AR for chroma and luma. It can't (without compromise anyway).
Oh I see. I misunderstood it then.

Of course you could say "well no GPUs can handle those settings beyond a certain resolution" but I think a 1080p screen and the highest quality content widely available now (BDs & HDTV) provide a sensible test case.
The Highest setting was made based on a GTX 260 - which accordingly to the users of this forum it can handle what you mentioned without problems.

@ Niyawa : Your guide makes no mention of deinterlacing. When using Cuvid, you have the option of GPU deinterlacing, and turning it off inside madVR or vice-versa.
I didn't really plan to mention it at all. Unless I'm missing something - most of the anime we watch are hardly interlaced at all. I'll see what I can do though.

DragonQ

5th March 2013, 19:06

Anime wouldn't be interlaced. Animation is almost universally 12 or 24 fps.

Hi, my LCD monitor supports 1080i25 and 1080i29 . Should i add them to madvr and disable deinterlacing when are used or what?
Depends. Is your monitor actually any good at deinterlacing? There's a decent chance that using your GPU to deinterlace would result in a better image (although GPU usage would go up).

Niyawa

5th March 2013, 19:09

Anime wouldn't be interlaced. Animation is almost universally 12 or 24 fps.
Maria Holic was apparently. The only one I've heard of though.

mandarinka

5th March 2013, 23:17

Maria Holic was apparently. The only one I've heard of though.

You probably just made a mistake checking the source ;)

DragonQ

6th March 2013, 00:22

You probably just made a mistake checking the source ;)
Maybe, but it's possible it was just badly mastered. An example I've come across is the recent Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers DVD box set - 30p film decently converted to 24p, combined with other 30p film badly converted to 24p so that some frames include combing (wtf), then combined with 60i graphics and post-processed in 60i (including slight slow-motion effects) so it's impossible to get smooth motion for every shot/scene. Then if you have the PAL version it's field-blended to 50i. :scared:

I'd love to remaster that from the original sources.

Niyawa

6th March 2013, 10:49

You probably just made a mistake checking the source ;)
I could have made a mistake, but this fansub cleary states the source as interlaced. (http://coalgirls.wakku.to/3284/maria%E2%80%A0holic)

Toku

6th March 2013, 12:37

You probably just made a mistake checking the source ;)

I'm not sure about Tv sources, but one does come across interlaced Anime Dvds/BDs quite often.

DragonQ

6th March 2013, 12:41

Tv source aren't usually interlaced afaik but one does come across interlaced Anime Dvds/BDs quite often.
As I said above, most TV is interlaced. Animation should be almost always progressive (same with films and dramas). Note, however, that just because something is broadcast or mastered for BD as "1080i", "576i", etc. doesn't mean it's interlaced.

yahyoh

6th March 2013, 17:46

toniash

6th March 2013, 18:29

i think u really don't need FFDshow :D

LAV + MadVr can play anything u throw in it :p

they use ffdshow to process image with AviSynth

leeperry

7th March 2013, 02:38

@madshi: Some of my posts regarding "Black Frame Insertion" were split into another thread, so please allow me to ask again: I know you answered me on that matter back in 2010 (https://www.leffster.se/showpost.php?p=1448317&postcount=4733), but we're now in 2013 and the 3D trend has pushed 120Hz support into a lot of displays so you can find many inexpensive projectors & flat screens that will support it by design(and in 1080p too, via DisplayPort/dual-link DVI connections). It's also fully supported on CRT for that matter ;)

At 24fps, each frame takes 1000/24=41.67ms, but at 120Hz that's 1000/120=8ms, would that still be too long to insert one black frame every 2/4/5 frames or so? :scared:

You can even push 144Hz(6*24) on LCD (http://www.asus.com/Monitors_Projectors/VG248QE/)/CRT and DLP these days, so an extra option to play around with BFI sequencing would be *SO* amazing :cool:

Just as a reminder:
120hz lcd panels use a process called Black Frame Insertion (BFI) - I'll explain. As was mentioned, a standard lcd has a 60hz refresh rate meaning each frame is displayed for 16.6ms as opposed to a tube television/CRT where each part of the image is displayed for less than 1ms and is followed by blackness. Most of the ghosting in LCDs with a fast response time is caused by retinal persistence, (think about what happens when you look at a lightbulb and then look away) due to the fact that the image is displayed for so long. 120hz LCDs reduce retinal persistence by halving the time each image is displayed to 8.3ms, but they are still only capable of refreshing the actual image 60 times per second, and the other 60 frames are pure black, inserted after every "real" frame. The result is a smoother looking video.
Some more explanations can be found here: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/lcd-parameters_4.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/lcd-parameters_5.html
if the frame rate is doubled, the eye will fix frames with an interval of about 8.3 milliseconds rather than 16.7 milliseconds. It means the shift of the two images, old and new, relative to each other is twice shorter. From the eye’s point of view, the trail behind a moving object becomes two times shorter, too. Thus, a very high frame rate would give us the same picture as we see in real life, i.e. without any fuzziness.
Would providing BFI inside mVR make any sense now that we're in 2013? It sure would sound like the perfect place to do it to me.....and Sammy's butter-smooth MotionFlow in "crisp mode" is heavily based on this dirty trick IMO.

:thanks: in advance for even considering it.

mandarinka

7th March 2013, 02:46

I could have made a mistake, but this fansub cleary states the source as interlaced. (http://coalgirls.wakku.to/3284/maria%E2%80%A0holic)

Don't believe everything you read. They are most likely just not clever/careful enough to distinguish between interlaced and telecined. The two are very different and the latter is what anime ends up as when it isn't progressive. There can be editing touches, effects, overlays (or screwups) that do something in interelaced mode on top of a progressive or telecined material, but those are just 'touches'... the underlying material stays telecine/progressive.

IIRC, in Full Metal Panic there were short 3d-rendered sequences that were truly interlaced (IIRC), but they were really short. Normal anime footage is made in progressive, for obvious reasons (and sometimes they do telecine from it).

hdboy

7th March 2013, 04:14

@madshi, could you add a keyboard shortcut to toggle (enable/disable) gamma processing? there's a shortcut but it only change gamma curve type. thank you.

nevcairiel

7th March 2013, 07:59

At 24fps, each frame takes 1000/24=41.67ms, but at 120Hz that's 1000/120=8ms, would that still be too long to insert one black frame every 2/4/5 frames or so? :scared:

In my experience, 120Hz is still too low to do BFI, it adds a too strong strobing effect and reduces brightness significantly, the logic inside the TVs does that for far lower times, at up to 400Hz in some cases (not technically with BFI but typically controlled by the backlight)

leeperry

7th March 2013, 08:10

In my experience, 120Hz is still too low to do BFI, it adds a too strong strobing effect and reduces brightness significantly, the logic inside the TVs does that for far lower times, at up to 400Hz in some cases (not technically with BFI but typically controlled by the backlight)
Thought so, but how did you try exactly? On what gear and at what rate? I can imagine that a LCD panel with a slow response time could be problematic, but there's always that 480Hz subjective trick I mentioned earlier:
http://www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/lightboost/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD5gjAs1A2s

1 black frame out of 5 for 24p@120Hz or 1 out of 6 for 144Hz might do the trick....and it'd be a whole different story from 1 black frame out of 2(as some of those 120Hz LCD's seem to process), possibly with that nvidia trick or on a CRT/DLP. All those displays will react very differently and madshi's got more tricks than a clown's pocket, so I thought that it would be really nifty to play around with custom BFI in mVR :cool:

Niyawa

7th March 2013, 09:48

Don't believe everything you read. They are most likely just not clever/careful enough to distinguish between interlaced and telecined. The two are very different and the latter is what anime ends up as when it isn't progressive. There can be editing touches, effects, overlays (or screwups) that do something in interelaced mode on top of a progressive or telecined material, but those are just 'touches'... the underlying material stays telecine/progressive.

IIRC, in Full Metal Panic there were short 3d-rendered sequences that were truly interlaced (IIRC), but they were really short. Normal anime footage is made in progressive, for obvious reasons (and sometimes they do telecine from it).
If I can't believe in everything I read, should I believe you? :p haha. I see. I'm not fully acquainced with interlaced material (since I don't usually watch it) so thanks for the heads up.

ttnuagmada

7th March 2013, 12:35

Greetings. I have done a fair bit of digging through the thread, but I'm still not completely sure which LAV video decoder settings I should be using with my AMD 6950. Basically, I'm confused about whether or not DXVA2 native works 100% with MadVR. Will I lose any functionality with it? I know copyback is fully functional, but i get dropped frames.

Also, are there any future plans to add sat/hue/luminance for individual colors and/or maybe multi-point greyscale? yCMS/dispcalgui/upsilonmixer currently seem to be a real headache to get accurate results with on my plasma. Being able to manually adjust greyscale/CMS while taking readings with Calman/HCFR would be godsend.

Toku

7th March 2013, 13:30

As I said above, most TV is interlaced. Animation should be almost always progressive (same with films and dramas).

Wow just realized you quoted me before I edited my comment.

Note, however, that just because something is broadcast or mastered for BD as "1080i", "576i", etc. doesn't mean it's interlaced.

I'm not very knowledgeable in the subject of what is a 'true' interlaced file (I know the basics of what Interlaced means though), all I know is that an experienced encoder would not push for a 1080p encode of an Anime of which the source was mastered in an interlaced Format, (720p is usually regarded as the max in these kinds of situations, depending on the situation a lower resolution would suffice. E.g a dvd). As always there are a few exceptions.) and this has happened quite often. If these are not true examples of interlaced content then the fact that these were mastered in an interlaced format probably points to a different reason to not out a 1080p release rather than it actually being interlaced.

MSL_DK

7th March 2013, 13:35

yCMS/dispcalgui/upsilonmixer currently seem to be a real headache to get accurate results with on my plasma.

madshi has stated that he will create his own calibration solution for madVR... this year :D

ttnuagmada

7th March 2013, 13:48

madshi has stated that he will create his own calibration solution for madVR... this year :D

That is exciting news for sure! But I do hope that there is at least an option for manual adjustment. The finicky nature of plasma's (my ST30 at least) seem to produce poor results with the automated LUT creation tools out there (dispcalgui/upsilonmixer). Upsilonmixer needs more options, and dispcalgui has too many options, yet doesn't have the one I need, which is the ability to have the meter read at a slower rate than default.

ajp_anton

8th March 2013, 01:40

Opened a video, did a seek, and closed it almost immediately (IIRC, was browsing through lots of videos):
http://ajpanton.se/madVR - crash report.rar

suanm

8th March 2013, 06:24

i care when madshi will begin convert 23.976 fps or 24 fps to 60fps instead of 47.95 fps or 48 fps

turbojet

8th March 2013, 08:39

Wouldn't it make more sense to convert to next highest framerate thats a multiple of the refresh rate to reduce frames that need to be added?

60hz: 24/25 to 30
72hz: 25/30 to 36
75hz: 24 to 25, 30 to 37?

suanm

8th March 2013, 09:28

no multiple of the refresh rate,only need the same of refresh rate
60hz:23.976/24/25 fps-->60 fps

toniash

8th March 2013, 11:09

no multiple of the refresh rate,only need the same of refresh rate
60hz:23.976/24/25 fps-->60 fps
This is what smooth motion frame rate conversion does!:D

DragonQ

8th March 2013, 11:15

I'm not very knowledgeable in the subject of what is a 'true' interlaced file (I know the basics of what Interlaced means though)
It just means there is motion between each field. If a file is 25 fps interlaced, that means there are 50 points in time that are captured (half a frame each).

all I know is that an experienced encoder would not push for a 1080p encode of an Anime of which the source was mastered in an interlaced Format, (720p is usually regarded as the max in these kinds of situations, depending on the situation a lower resolution would suffice. E.g a dvd). As always there are a few exceptions.) and this has happened quite often.

Personally I would encode 1080i/25 to 1080p/50 if I was forced to deliver a progressive file. It's the only way to not throw away temporal or spatial information. The best method is to just leave the file untouched but obviously this results in a larger file, plus a lot of people don't have their media players set up correctly for interlaced content.

If these are not true examples of interlaced content then the fact that these were mastered in an interlaced format probably points to a different reason to not out a 1080p release rather than it actually being interlaced.
As someone else pointed out above, if the original master is 1080i then there's a few possibilities:

- It's actually 1080p/25 in a 1080i/25 "wrapper" (no motion between fields in the same frame). This is very common because neither BD nor DVD supports 25p natively. "Inverse telecine" is required.
- The material is 1080p/25 but there are some 1080i/25 graphics or something.
- The material is actually 1080i/25, which means it must've come from a 1080p/50 source (why would you only draw every other line for animation?), which has no standard delivery format yet.

Since most animation is 12,24 or 25 fps, the last option is surely the rarest. It's easy to spot though - play the source file using hardware deinterlacing (IVTC off) and step between frames. If there is a difference between each frame, it's 1080i/25. If there is only a difference between every other frame, it's 1080p/25. If there's a more complicated motion pattern then something weird is going on, like frame rate conversion, field blending from or pulldown.