madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[nussman]

Yes, and I was thinking. If a dvd is encoded as interlaced but it's basically from a progressive source, and I can play it fine on my monitor without deinterlacing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlacing

I cant test it atm but disable deinterlacing in madVR should be "weaving".

[steakhutzeee]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlacing

I cant test it atm but disable deinterlacing in madVR should be "weaving".Hi, why you linked me to deinterlacing?

What you mean for weaving? My english is good but not so good [emoji23]

[nussman]

Why not just read the article? Some basics could help ...

[steakhutzeee]

Why not just read the article? Some basics could help ...I read it, and from different sources too.

In particular I found really helpful this.

At the bottom there is a pal section.

http://foro.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm

[neno]

Hi, madshi. In the latest 0.92.12 whenever I try to take a screenshot when paused, the potplayer crashed. And taking a screenshot when playing will get me an abnormal image(strange colors like a thermal image of the original one).

I haven't changed any settings and it can just take screenshots without any problem in older 0.92.X versions.

I use WIN10 with RX480.

Maybe the problem in changelog of 0.92.11 "screenshots in paused state sometimes crashed madVR" is still not fixed? Just a guess.

Anyone have some ideas or the same problem?

----------

And another problem.

I use lav 0.71 with latest madVR in D3D11 native mode, and the picture is always(no matter what video) split into the top and bottom part. The top part is the picture content turned into a flat size, and the bottom part is often a green image.

While D3D11 CB can just play normally.

Is there any idea about the problem?

nevcairiel said it sounds like a driver problem and madVR handles the processing of "native" frames. So I report it here.

Thanks.

[nussman]

Hi, why you linked me to deinterlacing?

What you mean for weaving?
I read it, and from different sources too.

:rolleyes:

Anyway madVR needs frames for further processing. So what to do with Pal DVD with fields? Try "field combination" (aka "weaving", "weave deinterlacing", "no deinterlacing" etc.) to get (the original) 25 frames and if it doesnt work (combing artifacts) use GPU deinterlacer (50 frames, but less artifacts).

For NTSC DVDs it's the same but you can try IVTC first in order to get (the original) 24 frames wihout pulldown jitter.

Imho this dicision has to done by the user for every DVD, but field combination for Pal and IVTC for NTSC should work most of the time.

Thats it. :cool:

[steakhutzeee]

:rolleyes:

Anyway madVR needs frames for further processing. So what to do with Pal DVD with fields? Try "field combination" (aka "weaving", "weave deinterlacing", "no deinterlacing" etc.) to get (the original) 25 frames and if it doesnt work (combing artifacts) use GPU deinterlacer (50 frames, but less artifacts).


Sorry but I only know to enable and disable deinterlacing. How can I use other type of deinterlacing you mentioned?

I read a lot about deinterlacing and ivtc but I limited to the general theory and not their algorithm, because I thought that was madvr to do that in one way. I was wrong at this point, I understand the sarcasm but I'm trying to learn and this topic I found it not so easy to go in. So I'm going forward just a step at a time.

[nussman]

Afaik enable Deinterlacing in madVR means GPU-Deinterlacer (video mode) or IVTC (film mode, for NTSC) and disable deinterlacing means field combination (imho "weave deinterlacing"), but maybe someone with more informations about the inner workings can confirm that?

[-sTi-]

Afaik enable Deinterlacing in madVR means GPU-Deinterlacer (video mode) or IVTC (film mode, for NTSC) and disable deinterlacing means field combination (imho "weave deinterlacing"), but maybe someone with more informations about the inner workings can confirm that?
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but for me it works like this: For a PAL DVD and automatic source detection, usually it defaults to DXVA deinterlacing. If I then manually disable deinterlacing via hotkey, madVR always switches to IVTC mode, which seems to be wrong(?). But at least the result looks good, I don't notice anything wrong or artifacts.

[steakhutzeee]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but for me it works like this: For a PAL DVD and automatic source detection, usually it defaults to DXVA deinterlacing. If I then manually disable deinterlacing via hotkey, madVR always switches to IVTC mode, which seems to be wrong(?). But at least the result looks good, I don't notice anything wrong or artifacts.Strange, this doesn't happens to me... maybe something regarding the region?

My dvd are region 2.

[Manni]

Yes, 390.77 has some good fixes for HDR and no regressions I know of. Still weirdness with custom resolutions sometimes but that is in all the options. :(

Unfortunately I just found one... 390.77 isn't compatible with Asio4All, which is a problem for those of us using REW (Room EQ Wizard). The HDMI Audio out isn't detected.

I had to revert to 385.28 (the last version fully working with HDR and custom res, i.e. without the locked bit depth for custom resolutions). ASIO4ALL works fine again.

If you don't need ASIO4ALL, 390.77 is fine, apart from the minor issue of the locked bit depth with custom res.

One last advantage of 390.77: it solves the annoying Dolby Atmos bug in the sound control panel that switches the surrounds and the surround back speakers. Nice for those who game in Atmos. Not an issue for movies as the 7.1 config works fine to bitstream Atmos to the AVR (if you bitstream HD Audio to keep immersive sound).

[nevcairiel]

Unfortunately I just found one... 390.77 isn't compatible with Asio4All, which is a problem for those of us using REW (Room EQ Wizard). The HDMI Audio out isn't detected.


That must be something on your end, shows up just fine here in the device list in the ASIO4ALL control panel.

[huhn]

deinterlacing is not that complicate.

if you take a PAL DVD and you can disable deinterlacing(PsF source...) and get normal results that doesn't mean you can do it with all pal dvd...

maybe i didn't make my self clear but automatic detection does NOT work.

[Manni]

That must be something on your end, shows up just fine here in the device list in the ASIO4ALL control panel.

Thanks, please can you list your OS version, GPU model, GPU driver version, Asio4ALL driver version, REW version?

I'm not the only one to have this issue on a 1080ti, at least with Windows 10 1709 and the latest nVidia drivers. That's how I found out as initially I had no idea why the HDMI out of the 1080ti did not appear.

The other guy with such an issue was also using Windows 10 and a 1080ti, so maybe it's restricted to some nVidia GPUs only, but it's definitely a driver compatibility issue with 390.77, reverting to 385.28 immediately solved it here.

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/problems-to-detect-hdmi-output-of-graphics-card-in-asio-drivers.2147/

This guy has exactly the same issue, and I promise it's not me :) All my details in my sig, I was using Asio4all 2.14 as well and the latest stable REW.

I don't know which GPU driver version breaks it, I don't have the time to try all the drivers from 385.28, I just went back to that one because it's the last one where everything works for me including the bit depth with custom res.

When I'm done with REW (I just got a new AVR, so I have some set-up / testing / optimization to do) I'll probably go back to 390.77, it's a good driver otherwise.

[nevcairiel]

I'm also on 10 with a 1080Ti, using ASIO4All 2.14. I'm not actually using REW, but thats not really involved at that point anyway.

[cremor]

No, it is an error message that the mode cannot be applied at all. Your issue may be madVR not switching to the actual custom resolution, try applying it manually. I have had that issue before as well, actually I suppose that might be another driver issue with the custom resolution API, but it wasn't the one I was talking about. :o

This doesn't seem to be the source of my problem. Even if I manually switch the resolution before starting a video, the madVR optimization seems to overshoot and bounces back and forth between 1 frame drop and repeat, always in the 50m to 2h range.

Is there a way to manually calculate the required values to get a specific refresh rate? I've tried changing some of the values but each change results in a way to high change in the refresh rate.

[Manni]

I'm also on 10 with a 1080Ti, using ASIO4All 2.14. I'm not actually using REW, but thats not really involved at that point anyway.

What do you use with Asio4All? I can't see a way to test Asio4All independently of REW.

Which build/version of 10 are you using? I'm on the latest 1709.

[nevcairiel]

Obviously there are other applications that can use ASIO, not only REW. :) I only use it for testing not day-to-day use (ASIO4All is usually a bad idea anyway, adding extra middle layers doesn't improve anything, unless you have some silly stubborn software that refuses to support any mainstream audio API, my USB DAC on the HTPC also has a native ASIO driver anyway), but I tested right now with JRiver Media Center.

[Manni]

Obviously there are other applications that can use ASIO, not only REW. :) I only use it for testing not day-to-day use (ASIO4All is usually a bad idea anyway, adding extra middle layers doesn't improve anything, unless you have some silly stubborn software that refuses to support any mainstream audio API, my USB DAC on the HTPC also has a native ASIO driver anyway), but I tested right now with JRiver Media Center.

Thanks for testing. Which OS build are you using? I know that there are other apps that can use Asio4All, that's precisely why I asked you which app do you use with it, I didn't want to ask you to test with REW as you're not using it.

Asio4all is the only way to access each of the 7.1 channels independently in REW. With the Java drivers, you're limited to sub + LR, so please don't make statements about software you don't use/know, or provide an alternative :)

When I'm done with REW I'll go back to 390.77 and I'll check with jRiver. If it works, I'll get in touch with the developer of REW as it will point to an issue with this specific software. If it doesn't, it will confirm the incompatibility of 390.77 with Asio4all, at least in my setup and that other guy's.

Sorry for the OT everyone, let's go back on topic.

[nevcairiel]

Asio4all is the only way to access each of the 7.1 channels independently in REW. With the Java drivers, you're limited to sub + LR, so please don't make statements about software you don't use/know, or provide an alternative :)

That software is indeed a bit silly if it can't even access individual channel through any other audio API. Its not exactly rocket science. So my statement stands. :p
I have actually used REW before though, but its just not something you use every day, or even every week, so its not installed for testing right now. Although they say you should re-measure occasionally, but who got time for that.

[Manni]

That software is indeed a bit silly if it can't even access individual channel through any other audio API. Its not exactly rocket science. So my statement stands. :p
I have actually used REW before though, but its just not something you use every day, or even every week, so its not installed for testing right now. Although they say you should re-measure occasionally, but who got time for that.

As I said, I'm installing a new AVR, I haven't used REW in the last two years, since I installed the last one. Silly or not, Asio4All is the only way to access all the channels independently in REW, so it does bring something that other drivers don't for that software. If you think REW is silly, please recommend another software with the same feature set or better that doesn't need Asio4All, I'll be very happy to consider it.

REW may have some silly limitations, yet I use it because it's the best at what it does (and I'm forever grateful for what his author does). I feel the same towards LAV and you by the way, or MadVR and Madshi, and I never call a well-designed bit of software silly, especially when it's free and it's the best at what it does :)

Any chance you could answer the question about which windows build you use so we can close this OT conversation? Thanks!

[Siso]

Which one of these 2 options is best to use? http://imgbox.com/epee9wJQ

[foozoor]

Are you going to release a new madvr?

[Sunset1982]

I think there will be a new Version soon. the new displaycal changelog showed a feature which requires madvr 0.92.13 or higher. so i think a new version will be released soon, maybe this weekend or next, but thats just my thoughts...

[steakhutzeee]

deinterlacing is not that complicate.

if you take a PAL DVD and you can disable deinterlacing(PsF source...) and get normal results that doesn't mean you can do it with all pal dvd...

maybe i didn't make my self clear but automatic detection does NOT work.I read Interlaced video can carry progressive scan signal, and deinterlacing process should consider this as well.

Typical movie material is shot on 24 frames/s film; when converting film to interlaced video using telecine, each film frame can be presented by two progressive segmented frames (PsF). This format does not require complex deinterlacing algorithm because each field contains a part of the very same progressive frame. However to match 50 field interlaced PAL/SECAM or 59.94/60 field interlaced NTSC signal, frame rate conversion should be performed using various "pulldown" techniques; most advanced TV sets can restore the original 24 frame/s signal using an inverse telecine process. Another option is to speed up 24-frame film by 4% (to 25 frames/s) for PAL/SECAM conversion; this method is still vastly used for DVDs, as well as television broadcasts (SD & HD) in the PAL MARKETS.

So with Psf material no deinterlacing is needed. So is madvr to perform the pulldown at this point? Speeding the source up to 25 frames?

And can you go deeper in the source detection not working argument?

[nussman]

No madVR is not doing pulldown or speed up.
NTSC has 59,xx fields/s and Pal DVD has 50 fields/s, so for sources with 24 frames/s pulldown or speedup is already done ...

[steakhutzeee]

No madVR is not doing pulldown or speed up.
NTSC has 59,xx fields/s and Pal DVD has 50 fields/s, so for sources with 24 frames/s pulldown or speedup is already done ...Understood, thanks!

[e-t172]

Unfortunately I just found one... 390.77 isn't compatible with Asio4All, which is a problem for those of us using REW (Room EQ Wizard). The HDMI Audio out isn't detected.
Asio4All is the only way to access all the channels independently in REW, so it does bring something that other drivers don't for that software. If you think REW is silly, please recommend another software with the same feature set or better that doesn't need Asio4All, I'll be very happy to consider it.

ASIO4ALL is not the only "virtual" ASIO driver available. There is also FlexASIO (https://github.com/dechamps/FlexASIO), ASIO2WASAPI (https://sourceforge.net/projects/asio2wasapi/) and ASIO2KS (http://www.asio2ks.de/). You might have better luck with those. Especially the first one, since, well, I wrote it :D

[bkrieger]

Should “Activate SuperRes filter be used for 1080P movies, and should the Anti Bloating filter be used in downlcaling?

[sauma144]

@madshi
There were a lot of improvements/changes for NGU and HDR recently. :)

What about image refinements or smoothmotion?
Are there some possible improvements to do?

What about a reclock alternative since custom resolutions are still problematic with old and current hardware?

[nussman]

What about image refinements or smoothmotion?
Are there some possible improvements to do?

What are your problems with image refinements or smoothmotion?

[cork_OS]

What are your problems with image refinements or smoothmotion?

Motion compensated frame rate conversion is better than smoothmotion's frame blending.

[Manni]

ASIO4ALL is not the only "virtual" ASIO driver available. There is also FlexASIO (https://github.com/dechamps/FlexASIO), ASIO2WASAPI (https://sourceforge.net/projects/asio2wasapi/) and ASIO2KS (http://www.asio2ks.de/). You might have better luck with those. Especially the first one, since, well, I wrote it :D

Thanks, REW's documentation (101 guide) only mentions ASIO4ALL. If FlexAsio is known to work with REW, I'll give it a try when I go back to 390.77 if Asio4All still doesn't work.

[Asmodian]

Motion compensated frame rate conversion is better than smoothmotion's frame blending.

No, smooth motion's frame blending is better than motion compensated frame rate conversion. :p

Trying to do motion compensation results in artifacts, there are simply too many kinds of motion you cannot predict well. I only want the source displayed as perfectly as possible. Also, trying to use motion compensation to do the same job as smooth motion results in many original frames needing to be thrown away so you end up mostly viewing the new frames with motion prediction errors.

[brazen1]

Motion compensated frame rate conversion is better than smoothmotion's frame blending.

I agree. I tried smooth motion at 60Hz instead of native 23/24hz to see what I was told I'm missing. The picture resulted slightly like a machine gun was firing the frames. I say slightly because without smooth motion, the machine gun effect is worse. Maybe it isn't noticeable to some but I find it unwatchable compared to what I'm used to.

I don't know how it would affect a 60Hz display? I use a 120Hz and when I turn on interpolation, that creates 240Hz, I get no machine gun effect at all. Smooth as butter. Nor do I get any bad motion predicted frames inserted I'm told I should be getting and certainly not a majority of them or the picture would be blemished and unwatchable to me.

Perhaps some displays use better interpolation processing than others? Perhaps it's a major difference between a 60Hz display and a 120Hz since pulldown never comes into play?

[pirlouy]

No, smooth motion's frame blending is better than motion compensated frame rate conversion. :p
I really enjoy the motion interpolation from my Samsung TV. They manage to add better motion without giving soap opera effect (ok there is some judder -not even artifacts- sometimes). I prefer to use 4:2:2 + 24Hz + motion interpolation instead of 4:4:4 + 60Hz + madVR's smooth motion. ;)

[Asmodian]

To each their own I suppose. I use 4:4:4 + 24 Hz without interpolation. Using motion interpolation to take 24 Hz to 60 Hz, with SVP or similar, is the worst situation. As always, smooth motion is only useful if you cannot get a well matched refresh rate. Doing it in the TV is a better place than in madVR.

[cork_OS]

Perhaps some displays use better interpolation processing than others? Perhaps it's a major difference between a 60Hz display and a 120Hz since pulldown never comes into play?
Trying to do motion compensation results in artifacts, there are simply too many kinds of motion you cannot predict well. I only want the source displayed as perfectly as possible. Also, trying to use motion compensation to do the same job as smooth motion results in many original frames needing to be thrown away so you end up mostly viewing the new frames with motion prediction errors.
Artifacts is a part of ancient MVTools/SVPflow. AFAIK modern TVs has much more advanced interpolation engines with much less artifacts. Additionally, 120/144Hz displays allows to keep original frames while interpolating (60x2, 23.976x6).
madVR is already doing more than just "rendering source as best as possible", so I hope someday madshi will consider implementing motion detection/compensation engine. I think it will also allow to increase deinterlacing and sharpening quality.

[foozoor]

Probably in the 0.93 release. :D

[cork_OS]

Rather in 0.95.
Well, since I began of dreaming I would also ask madshi what he think about upscale detection and about upscale reversion possibility.

[ryrynz]

Rather not likely at all actually, use SVP.

[foozoor]

Will madVR only be used for real-time rendering?

[bkrieger]

I am using NGU high for both Chroma Upscaling and Image Upscaling. Under image downscaling I am using SSIM 2.0, 100%.I have a GTX 980 TI.

For Chroma Upscaling, should I use super res filter, and if so what strength?

Under image downscaling I am using the strict soft anti ringing filter. Should I also use the anti bloating filter and if so what strength.

Sorry, I tried searching the forum for these settings, but couldn’t find an explanation on them or what people are using.

Thanks

[steakhutzeee]

I am using NGU high for both Chroma Upscaling and Image Upscaling. Under image downscaling I am using SSIM 2.0, 100%.I have a GTX 980 TI.

For Chroma Upscaling, should I use super res filter, and if so what strength?

Under image downscaling I am using the strict soft anti ringing filter. Should I also use the anti bloating filter and if so what strength.

Sorry, I tried searching the forum for these settings, but couldn’t find an explanation on them or what people are using.

ThanksTry to take a look here https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1709584

[ryrynz]

Please don't quote entire posts directly above yours when you have a one line reply..




For Chroma Upscaling, should I use super res filter, and if so what strength?


It's entirely up to you whether you like how if looks. Personally I'm not a fan of SuperRes, NGU does a good job with chroma anything else on top of it usually is imo excessive sharpening using resources better spent elsewhere. Anti ringing is a good choice if you don't mind the sharpness hit.

[bkrieger]

Thanks for that.

My only question then is, should I turn on Super-res filter. Is it wildly used?

Thanks

[huhn]

no is generally not advised to be used with ngu.

[d3rd3vil]

To each their own I suppose. I use 4:4:4 + 24 Hz without interpolation. Using motion interpolation to take 24 Hz to 60 Hz, with SVP or similar, is the worst situation. As always, smooth motion is only useful if you cannot get a well matched refresh rate. Doing it in the TV is a better place than in madVR.

Using SVP for 24 to 60 or 120 is the best way there is big time!

[bran]

Just exchanged my GTX1070 for a RX580 (because nvidia only supported 8 or 12bit output, and 12bit yields banding on my TV).

The RX580 struggles quite a bit more than my 1070 though (got a 4K screen and watch 720/1080/2160p) material only.

Is there any specific changes I would be advised to do in madVR and/or LAV Filters when switching from nvidia to AMD? Using DX11 in LAV Filters right now as it is, DX11 non-FSE in madVR.

[mytbyte]

RX580 should be on par with 1060, n'est-ce pas? What exactly does it struggle with? I have RX580 in a laptop, I could check