madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[huhn]

black frame interpolation only works well with high frame rate. if you have to present the same frame twice you will get ghosting so for video playback BFI is the same as ULMB2.

even a LG CX can do pretty bad 120 HZ plus bfi. the C1 couldn't only up to 60 HZ maybe they can do that again now i wouldn't know.

[flossy_cake]

broken desktop color correction more than half the time, broken dithering more than half the time.

coming from Windows 7 the dithering setting was rock solid...on Windows 10 I've had a couple of random dropouts...I think Windows Color Management system is interacting with it somehow too, but I'm mostly thinking it's a NVidia driver problem. It used to be that if I opened Video Playback in Windows System Settings (the preview video of a guy holding a skateboard) that would instantly kill dithering, but this is not the case on 22H2 and latest NVidia driver. So something changed.

Just to report my finding today that the Windows skateboard video appears to be the cause of my dithering dropouts, and the reason I didn't pick up on it was because it makes the dropout happen at the next boot, and I am able to reproduce this behaviour now. After disabling the Windows "Calibration Loader" task in task scheduler I can no longer reproduce the dropout behaviour and dithering seems to be hanging in there, but needs more long term testing to be sure, such as loading a wide variety of games to see if they cause dropouts.

But to summarise my config:


Windows 10 Pro 22H2, debloated during installation with Memstechtips "IoT-Like" autounattend.xml (https://github.com/memstechtips/UnattendedWinstall/tree/main/IoT-LTSC-Like)

RTX 3060 with driver 555.99 (June 2024)

using Calibration Tools (https://tiny.cc/calibrationtools) to apply the dithering with WindowsStartupDelay=20000 in its Config.ini which adds a 20 second delay before applying dithering at startup and also turns dithering off at windows shutdown

fastboot disabled in windows power management

not using any sleep settings ever, including display sleep

using only a single monitor, and not connecting/disconnecting monitors regularly

using login screen with password in case PC is turned on before monitor, thus stalling Nvidia desktop initialisation until monitor is turned on

Windows "Calibration Loader" task disabled in task scheduler (task scheduler library -> Microsoft -> Windows -> Windows Color System)

NVidia control panel desktop calibration settings untouched (I mean completely untouched since the last "clean install" of driver, putting the sliders back to default positions is NOT an untouched state it seems)

Windows night light disabled

Windows color management app: no profiles associated with the display (2 places to check: devices tab + advanced tab -> change system defaults)


I will report back if i get any more dithering dropouts

[tp4tissue]

I could do all that, and appreciate the input flossycake. But I also had the foresight to go AMD. I have a 6950xt and 7900xtx. Dithering Heaven.

The only Nvidia is 1060 which has random dropouts, it could be anything, today this, tomorrow that, I'll never be able to track them all down. Since I only ever dabble in very old games. Those cards are enough for my purpose without springing for 4090 ray tracing.

8800xt is said to be game changing though. So 8950xtx is the lookout.

[flossy_cake]

I could do all that, and appreciate the input flossycake. But I also had the foresight to go AMD. I have a 6950xt and 7900xtx. Dithering Heaven.

The only Nvidia is 1060 which has random dropouts, it could be anything, today this, tomorrow that, I'll never be able to track them all down. Since I only ever dabble in very old games. Those cards are enough for my purpose without springing for 4090 ray tracing.

8800xt is said to be game changing though. So 8950xtx is the lookout.

Cool yeah I'm not partial to brand names, my first 2 GPUs were radeons then I had 2 NVIDIA so I'm about due for another radeon :)

Question tho: do your AMDs handle resolution switching without issues? My r9 380 has about a 5-10% chance of crashing when madvr autochanges the display mode. I change display modes A LOT, I'm constantly screening different frame rate videos and do probably on average 10 display mode changes per day, sometimes more. I was about to throw the towel in on the r9 380 and saw there was an "enterprise" driver for stability and that one can handle lots of display mode changes. Without that driver I would be stuffed so I just wanted to make sure AMD had fixed it with all the new models.

Oh and funfact, on the 380 by default it doesn't do dithering over the display port , but could enable it via the registry using third party tool "Radeon mod" on guru3d. Are the new ones like this as well? How does it work on the new models, do you get a dithering option in Radeon settings or does it just work automatically behind the scenes?

[Sunspark]

I think it would be easier to just use Intel's igpu if you have an intel cpu, unless you need to use some kind of high resource usage algo (which I know some of you do use)..
Doesn't crash on resolution changes, no chroma issues, has working hardware deinterlacing, and the dithering thing can be turned on and off as well as the dithering algorithm of choice using a program called ditherig (I have tested it, and it works, though I don't need to use it since Intel doesn't have temporal turned on by default).

[flossy_cake]

I think it would be easier to just use Intel's igpu if you have an intel cpu, unless you need to use some kind of high resource usage algo (which I know some of you do use)..
Doesn't crash on resolution changes, no chroma issues, has working hardware deinterlacing, and the dithering thing can be turned on and off as well as the dithering algorithm of choice using a program called ditherig (I have tested it, and it works, though I don't need to use it since Intel doesn't have temporal turned on by default).

I dunno man are you talking about your 2014 laptop HD 6000 iGPU here or have you tested this on more recent desktop iGPUs from the last 3-4 years cause I had nothing but terrible experience on the newer 12th gen, no DXVA processing worked at all and performance was really bad. Don't assume just because something is a newer model it will be at least as good as all previous gens, enshittification and all that. Current gen is about stripping away as many things from the product without too many customers noticing. That's why 3060 is 12 gig and 4060 is 8 gig.

[mclingo]

I fixed the 24p issue, turned out to be my reciever, updating the firmware fixed it, not back to no slips in hours / days on 24p so i've disabled fluid motion frames.

[Sunspark]

I dunno man are you talking about your 2014 laptop HD 6000 iGPU here or have you tested this on more recent desktop iGPUs from the last 3-4 years cause I had nothing but terrible experience on the newer 12th gen, no DXVA processing worked at all and performance was really bad. Don't assume just because something is a newer model it will be at least as good as all previous gens, enshittification and all that. Current gen is about stripping away as many things from the product without too many customers noticing.

Yes, you're right. I was talking about it, and the previous generations, with the assumption that what was working would have continued forward.

You're right about enshittification, I notice it in many other things that aren't GPUs. It's disappointing.

I wonder how Apple's integrated graphics that they have for the M CPUs (which is a powerhouse CPU) compares in terms of hardware support? The cheapest Mac Mini is $599 USD. MPV does exist as a player there. Might be an option.

[huhn]

the apple gpu are just like the CPU low end.
these are just arm cpu with insane power limitations.
they are not even comparable to x86. there are very very powerful arm CPU but these are not in a mac mini.

@flossy_cake
there is a 8 gb 3060 too.

[tp4tissue]

Question tho: do your AMDs handle resolution switching without issues?

Resolution changes work fine for me on 6950xt and 7900xtx. I do more than 10 changes a day but mainly between 120 and 119.

You won't know unless you test it out though, because I've locked to 1809, never going to update ever again for the rest of my life.

[Sunspark]

It can support 4K at 240 Hz over HDMI..

I know it's not a system for everyone, but these aren't underpowered toys either.

[huhn]

and what has this to do with processing power?

what igpu can't do what the connector can do?

[Sunspark]

We are talking about different things here I think. I am making the argument that Apple silicon in the M-series is a powerful CPU package capable of delivering a lot of performance without requiring a 1000w power supply, at a good price.

Buying an expensive Nvidia card ($1000 for the 3090, $2000 for the 4090) just to play video is ridiculous.

[huhn]

you can just buy a deck and run cycles around it...

test usually run 3d mark no one that wants to be taking serious is ever going to run because it can't run anything at all.

just get a chrome book or something...

1000 watts what are you even talking about most CPU running at spec will use 15-125 watts while destroying an m2 ultra even current intel does and doesn't cost ~5k with iGPU level of performance...

a 4090 there is nothing in any mac that competes with that.
a mac mini is comparable to a SOC that's it found in notebooks a nuc or other mini PCs there are so many of them not a desktop PC.

someone really wants to sell me that an apple does have good price to performance ratio by selling a brick with nuc performance for 500 bucks?

[tp4tissue]

Does madvr run on mac?

[Sunspark]

tp4tissue, no but mpv does and pretty much has equivalent functionality.

Strange that huhn disparages the mini M2 pro cpu so.. looking at the geekbench results, the cpu single-core score is 2657, the multi-core score is 14467. That's about equivalent to an Intel Core i7-13700 single-core and for multi, an Intel Xeon w5-2465X (16 cores) or AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX (32 cores).

Leaked Macbook Pro results with the M4 CPU that just came out had a score of 3,864 points in the single-core test and 15,288 in the multi-core test. That's an amazing single-core performance jump. The best score for PC there is 3135 with the Intel Core i9-13900KS (24 cores). Desktop-grade cpus are already outperformed by a notebook in single-core. They still beat it in multi-core though, but not in that power envelope or form factor.

I don't own a Mac, but they do have good silicon.

[flossy_cake]

@flossy_cake
there is a 8 gb 3060 too.


Yep and now they've degraded the 3050 (https://youtu.be/nOr5qIJR5os) as well :rolleyes:

Which I would be ok with for a budget madvr build, but it's priced annoyingly where it just doesn't make a good value proposition. Could throw another $50 and have the full fat 3050 and then that doesn't make sense either cause we're only $70 away from a full fat 3060

[huhn]

tp4tissue, no but mpv does and pretty much has equivalent functionality.

Strange that huhn disparages the mini M2 pro cpu so.. looking at the geekbench results, the cpu single-core score is 2657, the multi-core score is 14467. That's about equivalent to an Intel Core i7-13700 single-core and for multi, an Intel Xeon w5-2465X (16 cores) or AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX (32 cores).

Leaked Macbook Pro results with the M4 CPU that just came out had a score of 3,864 points in the single-core test and 15,288 in the multi-core test. That's an amazing single-core performance jump. The best score for PC there is 3135 with the Intel Core i9-13900KS (24 cores). Desktop-grade cpus are already outperformed by a notebook in single-core. They still beat it in multi-core though, but not in that power envelope or form factor.

I don't own a Mac, but they do have good silicon.
yes let run a CPU benchmark i'm sure mpv cares.
and totally ignore that one is arm64 and the other x86_64.
you fall for the most obvious benchmark tests.
syn benchmark are not relevant.

you really believe arm cpu beats x86 so hard that they shouldn't even exist? maybe think about this a little more. a snapdragon x as a CPU has similar performance as an M3. so why aren't all windows user replacing there workstation PCs with one of these so the single core performance will be faster? because maybe it isn't.

arm has done something amazing and competes with x86 but they are only competing not trashing x86. they are actually much slower then i expected to enter mainstream windows but AMD and intel are still not done or even remotely close to be done.

[flossy_cake]

The reason I feel uneasy about ARM has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that it's all part of a shift to eventually turn all PCs into tablets. And they will use higher and higher electricity prices to slowly nudge us in that direction.

[huhn]

just because high performance arm is niche or a failure at the moment doesn't mean it stays that way.

and power efficiency is also not staying that way. luna lake and strix are coming soon and they are supposed to compete in that same category as the m4 and the snapdragon x and no none of them is going to beat a desktop or workstation CPU. strix is literally going to use the same cores as the 9000 series.

the real issue is nvidia and AMD you can not compete with them in the GPU space just look at intel ARC the driver can't hold a candle against the massive driver of the competition. apple doesn't even try and adreno GPU are something else.

[flossy_cake]

Yeah why is the driver file so huge for NVIDIA & AMD? 25 years of compatibility shims and game profiles?

[huhn]

his and stuff i can't even imagine.

it is so big intel can not catch up so they tried or still try to using tricks.
no DX9 support it is simulated in DX11 and madVR is DX9.

[Sunspark]

@flossy_cake The thing you say about tablets is interesting (though nothing to do with electricity, otherwise they'd have to give up on pushing electric cars) because Apple ran commercials back in 2017 where the tablet-using girl said "What's a computer?". Computers will always exist just like we still have radio, but I could see them diminishing in market share because I've been seeing complaints that more and more young people only know how to use smartphone interfaces, etc. I don't love them because they're too limited (e.g. Apple crippled video playback codecs for years via the closed nature of the system and restricted apps, e.g. no emulators until this year) there's too much of a push for everything to be cloud + subscription.

[tp4tissue]

8 bit HDR.

Just tried out 8bit HDR and 10bit, back and forth. From madvr, it looks identical.

You can see a difference in gradient pattern if you disable dithering, but with 8bit dither, it's all smooth.

NE1 else able to see a difference? If so, which pattern / what movie ?

[mclingo]

I dont see any difference between 8/10 bit or even with any of the MADVR scaling algos, most of the stuff I play these days is full remux of 1080p or 4k rips so the quality is too high to make out any real difference, I mainly just use MADVR as It does a better job tone mapping HDR than other renderers and it plays 3d stuff flawlessly, I learned to stop worrying too much about eaking every last bit of quality out of MADVR, as long as it doesnt skip any frames and looks good its a win for me.

[huhn]

8 bit HDR.

Just tried out 8bit HDR and 10bit, back and forth. From madvr, it looks identical.

You can see a difference in gradient pattern if you disable dithering, but with 8bit dither, it's all smooth.

NE1 else able to see a difference? If so, which pattern / what movie ?
look out for noise level.
bit deep never had anything to with graduation if dithering is used.

with PQ this should be really hard.

[tp4tissue]

I can kinda see noise level but it might be placebo. It's like a little extra grainy flickering where gradients are. Flashlight beam edges. But if I wasn't looking for it, not sure I'd pick it out. In Badboys ride or die, they graded it ultra clean with almost no noise, I can't see much of a difference here. And the opposite end, movies with mosquito grain, I also can't see it.

Perhaps it's only subtly visible in the middle ground between 2 extremes.

[huhn]

yes you need something clean like a cartoon if there is already noise it will not affect it much.

there is also dither pattern that visible in dark detailed scene which have some bitrate issues.

[Amuat]

Alright, so now I have the exact same situation with Seven Samurai. I don't know what it is with these Japanese Toho Blu-rays. Anyway, now I have all the info for you, I just put the new screenshots under the same old link (https://github.com/AmohtAmuat/Ikiru).

[huhn]

report bt 2020 in SDR is the answer.
it's SDR bt 2020 with a pointless transfer function information.

it technically saying it is "bt 709 gamma" which is never used and pretty much means bt 1886 they could have fixed it on a UHD blu ray they didn't.

since the blu ray the transfer function information is just a lie:
it is under page 5 1.2
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bt/r-rec-bt.1886-0-201103-i!!pdf-e.pdf

or in short this file is gamma.

[tp4tissue]

Behold, 720p upscaling quality of 2023's $2000 TV.

That's supposed to be the playstation triangle.

https://i.imgur.com/FfJNPN4.jpeg

[ryrynz]

Behold, 720p upscaling quality of 2023's $2000 TV.

That's supposed to be the playstation triangle.

I hope you contacted their support about that. Holy heck.

[tp4tissue]

Any of you guys have the viture or air 2s oled glasses? Is there a way to get 3D to work through madvr on these ?

[flossy_cake]

Behold, 720p upscaling quality of 2023's $2000 TV.

That's supposed to be the playstation triangle.



I had the same issue on Panasonic FZ950 OLED except it was only on chroma channels so only on stuff like red on blue background like Mario's hat on blue sky background. But it was pretty much like what your image shows - wavy lines on diagonals. In the end I couldn't tolerate it so went back to my old TV. If I had to take a random guess I'd say maybe it's some kind of "super resolution" filter that maybe isn't set up properly in the TV's scaler, like maybe it assumes the source has integer alignment or something. What model TV is it?

why not just upgrade to 11? 10 is a dead duck.

Hows that working out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW6b4ObnYMY)

[ryrynz]

Hows that working out

Just fine, if people want to take issue with Recall that's their decision to make. Perhaps some changes will be made to placate those making noise, but it certainly no good reason IMO to avoid the OS. The majority of people upgrading aren't people concerned about or watching/reading potential privacy related issues on the internet anyway, this is very small crowd of people that preach FUD.

[flossy_cake]

Just fine, if people want to take issue with Recall that's their decision to make. Perhaps some changes will be made to placate those making noise, but it certainly no good reason IMO to avoid the OS. The majority of people upgrading aren't people concerned about or watching/reading potential privacy related issues on the internet anyway, this is very small crowd of people that preach FUD.

https://i.ibb.co/mT24mHd/1230910874709.jpg

[whitestar999]

Just fine, if people want to take issue with Recall that's their decision to make. Perhaps some changes will be made to placate those making noise, but it certainly no good reason IMO to avoid the OS. The majority of people upgrading aren't people concerned about or watching/reading potential privacy related issues on the internet anyway, this is very small crowd of people that preach FUD.

Sometime in the future after MS activated recall buried in some obscure update/setting.

User Kratos007: checking his email see an email with subject "gotcha you perv". He proceeded to read the email which start with something like "I know you have been watching porn sites a lot lately since I hacked your pc & have recorded all the evidence. if you don't want me to send all that evidence to your contacts then immediately transfer 1 BTC to this address.

User Kratos007: Thinks to self. Ha! You think i am stupid. I have read about such scams on reddit, you sucker. Wait! There is another paragraph in the email.

In case you think this is not real then go to your windows recall feature & type the websites you visited most & check what you see there because that's the data I hacked.

User Kratos007: Yeah! let me check. Search recall onlyfan xxxbuttxx. Sees the glorious full screen resolution screenshot of browser window of the website. Oh Shit!!!!

Hello! is this the bank? Yeah I need to liquidate that emergency fund cause it's an emergency.

[huhn]

you know you can turn it of and current PC don't even meet the techspecification to even run it run that stupid spyware.

doing an screenshoot when a page is loaded or store the history... they can already do that since XP.

[flossy_cake]

Even if it was 100% secure I still don't want Microsoft keeping records of everything I'm doing, for the same reason I close my curtains at night even though I've got nothing to hide. It's called privacy. And of course if a 3 letter agency comes knocking, they are required by law to hand over everything. Best to just not let them set up surveillance cameras in the first place, but that's difficult to do when they have nudged everyone into autoupdates as the new norm, which can be tricky to completely disable (or if you do disable them, they magically turn themselves back on at a later date, or as we've seen, they integrate it into Explorer.exe in such a way that it cannot be disabled without breaking/reverting other features).

Even if there was no security or privacy issues, I just don't want their stupid retarded AI shit running in the background, because AI is fake and gay.

[huhn]

and nothing about that changes stop using windows if you care.

they already have access to everything but if they have access to that again it is an issue... nothing has changed!

[flossy_cake]

stop using windows if you care

I am migrating to windows 10 which doesnt have Recall and has telemetry removed via autounattend.xml, and autoupdates disabled in many places (registry and group policy) with confirmation in Windows Update settings GUI that it is "disabled by your organization" and also blocked microsoft servers at my router DNS filtering and confirmed that too with infinite spinner when trying to force an update, so I am pretty sure I am in a better position than someone on a regular desktop PC who just downloaded 11 24H2 which now has Recall embedded into Explorer.exe and now says Recall is enabled as a feature when checking with DISM command hidden from the user. The point here is that they enabled the feature silently in 11 24H2 so the trust that they won't silently turn it on and start taking snapshots of your private data is shattered to a million tiny insignificant pieces.

[flossy_cake]

Just the fact they seem to be embedding it into the OS as a dependency of Explorer.exe is a huge red flag on its own. This shows they aren't really interested in making it a separate standalone optional module.

[Sunspark]

Maybe instead of having to fight and distrust the system to that extent, it might be better for you to work on moving to Linux? You can have it as minimal as you like.

Use KDE as the desktop, it has flexibility and working font fractional scaling.

[flossy_cake]

Maybe instead of having to fight and distrust the system to that extent, it might be better for you to work on moving to Linux? You can have it as minimal as you like.

Why not dualboot both Linux and 10? Best of both worlds :cool: (that's my plan anyway)


Use KDE as the desktop, it has flexibility and working font fractional scaling.

Do I need fractional scaling? What does that mean exactly - are you saying something like LMDE would not support DPI scaling modes like 125%, 150%, 175% which are not a multiple of 100 i.e integer scaling?

[SirMaster]

Any of you guys have the viture or air 2s oled glasses? Is there a way to get 3D to work through madvr on these ?

I use Xreal air glasses.

I guess it depends on the format of your 3D videos? Mine are all side-by-side, and so I just play them normally in MPC with madVR and the glasses get the side-by-side image, and I just put the glasses into 3D mode and it puts half the image on one eye and half on the other eye and the 3D works as it should.

[Sunspark]

Do I need fractional scaling? What does that mean exactly - are you saying something like LMDE would not support DPI scaling modes like 125%, 150%, 175% which are not a multiple of 100 i.e integer scaling?

Yeah, LMDE is a Cinnamon desktop which uses GTK from Gnome as the toolkit. But GTK won't have fractional scaling until GTK 4.14. The crap way GTK was doing it before was that they'd integer scale to a larger multiple, then downscale.

Do you need it? Not if you're ok with integer scaling of 100, 200, etc.

If you want to try something that isn't GTK or QT, you can try Cosmic from System76. It has fractional scaling. Looks kind of nice actually and it's supported by a hardware retailer. https://system76.com/cosmic

[tp4tissue]

I use Xreal air glasses.

I guess it depends on the format of your 3D videos? Mine are all side-by-side, and so I just play them normally in MPC with madVR and the glasses get the side-by-side image, and I just put the glasses into 3D mode and it puts half the image on one eye and half on the other eye and the 3D works as it should.

Gotcha thanks. :D

[flossy_cake]

Do you need it? Not if you're ok with integer scaling of 100, 200, etc.



Good question — I'll probably upgrade to a 55" 4k @ 3.5m view distance, so whatever DPI scaling factor is needed to keep text legible at that distance. I guess 200% would be equivalent to 1080 @ 100%, which might be okay. I do use the windows magnifier tool occasionally though on my current setup.

[flossy_cake]

@tp4tissue what TV is it? LG OLED? Did playing with super res or sharpness controls affect it?

[huhn]

an s90c the most broken TV on this planned.

a TV so intoxicated that it changes the primaries and secondaries if you change the gamma!