madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[jmonier]

In my experience, VC-1 interlaced (which Planet Earth is) is the very toughest material to handle, although it varies a lot. I've had some samples that are no problem at all and others that require my i7-2600 to play without glitches. It's strictly interlaced VC-1 that has problems, non-interlaced is always fine. Make sure you're using the latest version of LAV, it's multi-threaded and that helps a lot. It is possible, however, that you just need more cpu.

[kalston]

I got latest version of everything. My CPU is running at less than 20% & the GPU is at 30%. Forcing film mode seems to work fine, if I leave it on autodetect madVR uses video mode which isn't fine at all.

[jmonier]

Even if the CPU shows 20%, one core could be maxing out occasionally.

[Andy o]

I got latest version of everything. My CPU is running at less than 20% & the GPU is at 30%. Forcing film mode seems to work fine, if I leave it on autodetect madVR uses video mode which isn't fine at all.

Seems the video is telecined, can your display do 24p or multiple refresh rate?

[jmonier]

kalston:

Look at the posts beginning here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191&page=492

for more info.

In particular see what frame rate you get with GraphStudio. This is the only way you can see if your CPU is up to the job.

[kalston]

Seems the video is telecined, can your display do 24p or multiple refresh rate?

Yes it can.

I will have a look at graphstudio.

But if an i5 2500k @4.5ghz can't cope with this, then what CPU can? Also, when I use CUVID and hardware deinterlacing in LAV, isn't everything running on the GPU anyway? Although my GPU isn't extremely powerful, I have it running in 3d clocks constantly (turned off downclocking).

[Andy o]

I don't think it's the cpu, just wrong deinterlacing, that's why film mode works. This content seems to be telecined, so you just need to apply IVTC, which is what film mode does. Since you're displaying at 24p, setting the wrong deinterlacing will give you bad video. I got a Core 2 Quad Q9450 (Yorkfield) and the only VC-1 video it can't cope with is 1080p/60 and that's only because there's no multithreaded VC-1 decoder that I know of (the MS decoder doesn't seem to use MT). Even 1080p/60 H.264 runs smoothly with it thanks to the MT decoder.

[jmonier]

Of course the i7 series should be better than an i5. Whether it would make a difference with your problem, I don't know.

Your GPU is VDPAU Feature Set A which has only PARTIAL acceleration for VC-1 so CUVID will only be doing part of the job with the CPU doing the rest.

As I said, the way to answer these questions is to measure the frame rate with GraphStudio. The frame rate needs to be well above 30 (or well above 60 if using 50/60 YADIF).

Note: It might be better to continue this discussion on the LAV thread since that is mostly what we are discussing here.

[nevcairiel]

Planet Earth isn't telecined (at least none of the versions i ever saw), its plain 60i.
What probably happens is that "Video" mode Deinterlacing will deinterlace to 60p, while "Film" mode deinterlacing only deinterlaces to 30p, avoiding the issue for some reason.

I have seen numerous problems with partial VC-1 acceleration in combination with HW deinterlacing, its just a rather unstable combination.

[aufkrawall]

Hm, I'm getting presentation glitches with this video as long as I don't enable to overshoot max frame latency:
http://www.mediafire.com/?4hiytmtbe4b8o9f

If it's enabled no counted glitches at all.
The same happens with the samples Cruncher posted here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1571734&postcount=1121

[kalston]

Planet Earth isn't telecined (at least none of the versions i ever saw), its plain 60i.
What probably happens is that "Video" mode Deinterlacing will deinterlace to 60p, while "Film" mode deinterlacing only deinterlaces to 30p, avoiding the issue for some reason.

I have seen numerous problems with partial VC-1 acceleration in combination with HW deinterlacing, its just a rather unstable combination.

Yeah, I just checked and Film mode does deinterlace to 30p in this case.
I have the UK version and the Planet Earth BDs are regular 23.976p apart from this one. I got the Life boxset too which is on the other hand 50i (and seems to work fine in video mode from the little testing I just did).

Edit : Okay, my problem has nothing to do with performance and/or LAV at all! It's some strange bug. See for yourself:

-75hz: flawless in windowed and FSE, queues are full 100% of the time, video mode deinterlacing does it job (solid 60fps), mpc-hc and JRiver MC17 give the same results. However, 60fps on 75hz does not look good so it's not a viable solution.
-60hz: fine in windowed but NOT in windowed fullscreen or FSE, queues go mad every now and then, both players behave the same, reclock/video smooth don't change anything at all.

Looks like a madVR (unlikely) or nvidia (very likely) issue, IMO.

[Pat357]

Yeah, I just checked and Film mode does deinterlace to 30p in this case.
I have the UK version and the Planet Earth BDs are regular 23.976p apart from this one. I got the Life boxset too which is on the other hand 50i (and seems to work fine in video mode from the little testing I just did).

Edit : Okay, my problem has nothing to do with performance and/or LAV at all! It's some strange bug. See for yourself:

-75hz: flawless in windowed and FSE, queues are full 100% of the video, video mode deinterlacing does it job (solid 60fps), mpc-hc and JRiver MC17 give the same results. However, 60fps on 75hz does not look good so it's not a viable solution.
-60hz: fine in windowed but NOT in windowed fullscreen or FSE, queues go mad every now and then, both players behave the same, reclock/video smooth don't change anything at all.

Looks like a madVR (unlikely) or nvidia (very likely) issue, IMO.

You didn't install the 30x.xx serie beta drivers, did you ?
If you did, do you have "adaptive vsync" enabled ?
I can't recommend it, but it could maybe explain the different behavior from 60 Hz versus 75 Hz refresh rate.
I think your VP2 card is really to slow/buggy to handle 60i content.
Get a cheap/used GTx-4xx or GTX-5xx VP4 now or wait till cheaper than the GTX-680 VP5 cards are released.
(stay away from the so called VP5 GTx-520 NV card, it's too slow because off the slow/cheap RAM used)

[kalston]

Got 296.10, haven't even thought about trying 300.xx drivers - newer drivers tend to just make things worse with older GPUs. I would use much older drivers (260.99 possibly) if it wasn't for a couple of games I own that need recent ones.

Aero being off, don't think I should have to worry about vsync.

[Budtz]

I often get a freeze if i open a file after the pc has ben restarted. It only happens once. Then it works. I mostly use hibernate/slumber so the error dosnt occur untell i restart the pc again some days later.

log attached is says:

callstack crc : $56b52c58, $079f2a0f, $24210d46
exception number : 1
exception message : The process seems to be frozen.

[mecedo]

Hi.
Look at this sample. madVR got big problems when scene goes to B/W. I've checked every option and can't play without problems. I had to change for EVR render to watch the whole movie.
http://netload.in/dateiEwSjy9qPhv/Czarny czwartek sample.(25fps).mkv.htm

[madshi]

Just a small heads up: I'm currently busy working on my commercial projects. I hope to have time for madVR again in maybe 2-3 weeks or so.

[aufkrawall]

Hi.
Look at this sample. madVR got big problems when scene goes to B/W. I've checked every option and can't play without problems. I had to change for EVR render to watch the whole movie.
http://netload.in/dateiEwSjy9qPhv/Czarny czwartek sample.(25fps).mkv.htm
Can't confirm, works fine here.

[mecedo]

Can't confirm, works fine here.

Can you give me your setup? I'm using MPC HC, ffdshow video, ffdshow audio and LAV splitter.

[aufkrawall]

It works for me with the same tools.

Have you tried 16 frames presented in advance with FSE and maybe overshoot frametimes?

[bozokaydin]

With nvidia 301.24 drivers and gtx 590 madvr do not upscale the video. When i use Evr everything works normal.

[jakmal]

With nvidia 301.24 drivers and gtx 590 madvr do not upscale the video. When i use Evr everything works normal.

What do you exactly mean by 'do not upscale'? As in, if you play a SD video on a 1080p screen, it doesn't upscale to 1080p?

I am using 301.24 with a GT 540M, and everything works OK except that you have to uncheck the madVR option to use a separate presentation device. Otherwise, you just get a blank screen...

[bozokaydin]

What do you exactly mean by 'do not upscale'? As in, if you play a SD video on a 1080p screen, it doesn't upscale to 1080p?

I am using 301.24 with a GT 540M, and everything works OK except that you have to uncheck the madVR option to use a separate presentation device. Otherwise, you just get a blank screen...

For example 720p video on full hd screen, don't play full screen, 720p can not upscale to 1080p. Only 1080p videos play correctly, because they do not need upscaling.

[Ihmemies]

Not useful renderer because unlike in EVR color management is not supported.

[JustinChase]

Ihmemies
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1

Not useful renderer because unlike in EVR color management is not supported.

You waited over 4 years to make your first post, and finally decided this was what you needed to say???

:goodpost:

[6233638]

Has anyone else been having trouble playing DVDs lately?

It's been fine for me until recently, but I'm now getting "Macrovision Fail" errors again and I can't think of any reason why. (madVR and LAV Filters haven't had updates for a while)

Update: It's LAV Filters 0.50.2 that breaks DVD playback. 0.50.1 works fine.

I guess I just hadn't played a DVD since I last updated.

[dukey]

the MS dvd navigator only allows microsoft renderers to connect

[Asmodian]

Not useful renderer because unlike in EVR color management is not supported.

I like madVR because it has better color management than any other renderer I have found. yCMS offers full gamut and gamma calibrations.

EVR on the other hand has terrible color management and is unable to display correct colors on my wide gamut display.

[reverepink]

so i have 2560x1600 30" Dell monitor. what would be the best upscalling method for 720p material? mostly anime. anyone has experience with such setup and can share an opinion?

[SamuelMaki]

so i have 2560x1600 30" Dell monitor. what would be the best upscalling method for 720p material? mostly anime. anyone has experience with such setup and can share an opinion?

I use Bicubic 100. But I only do 720->1080 scaling and movies...

[Ihmemies]

I like madVR because it has better color management than any other renderer I have found. yCMS offers full gamut and gamma calibrations.

EVR on the other had has terrible color management and is unable to display correct colors on my wide gamut display.

How it is configured then? In MPC-HC all Renderer settings on the right click menu are grayed out.

Edit: seems it was hidden in filters->madvr->edit settings. Very logical :S

Edit2: I was mainly interested in madvr because of the adjustable resizing stuff, very handy when 99,999% of material is below my display's resolution - so decent quality upscaling is a must.

[namaiki]

so i have 2560x1600 30" Dell monitor. what would be the best upscalling method for 720p material? mostly anime. anyone has experience with such setup and can share an opinion?

I'm using spline at the moment as I found that lanczos caused too much ringing to stand out. Haven't "noticed" anything with spine yet.

[dioxholster]

How to activate tearing test? I cant seem to do it with the hotkey and its not available in the context menu. I'm getting tearing between scene transitions, at least i think its tearing. Pixelated vertical lines halfway for a split second with interlaced video forced into film mode. But it could be the video's fault I pretty much get the same thing with wmp. Is there anyway to get rid of it? Oh and im using old path, since the normal one gets glitches.

[6233638]

so i have 2560x1600 30" Dell monitor. what would be the best upscalling method for 720p material? mostly anime. anyone has experience with such setup and can share an opinion?I have done extensive testing with upscaling content, and I would suggest:

Chroma Upscaling: Mitchell-Netravali. This is objectively better than all other scaling algorithms in most test cases. The other option would be Bicubic 75, which handles fine details better, but can exhibit ringing.

Luma Upscaling: This is based on personal preference. My preference is to have as little ringing or aliasing as possible, which I feel is doubly important with animated content.

So personally, I use SoftCubic 80. It is soft, but it avoids exaggerating any artefacts in the source, or adding any of its own.

From softest to sharpest, I would say that the viable options are: SoftCubic 80 SoftCubic 50 Mitchell-Netravali Bicubic 75 Spline 3 Lanczos 3And of those, I would suggest choosing from SoftCubic 80 (soft) Mitchell-Netravali (aliasing) or Bicubic 75 (ringing) depending on your preference for sharpness, and tolerance for ringing/aliasing, as I feel that those three are the best "balanced" choices. (spline/lanczos add unwatchable levels of ringing in my opinion)

For a more detailed comparison with example images, see this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1560193&postcount=12242). (it was done before Bicubic 100 was introduced, but there's far too much ringing with it)

[BatKnight]

6233638, if the scenario would be upsampling 720p to a 46" screen at 1920x1080 would your recommendations be the same? The content would be movies and not anime, in this case.

Thanks
Bat

[6233638]

6233638, if the scenario would be upsampling 720p to a 46" screen at 1920x1080 would your recommendations be the same? The content would be movies and not anime, in this case.

Thanks
BatPersonally, I haven't found much reason to use different filters for animated/live action content, or scaling DVDs/720p footage to 1080p or greater, but I do find that animated content tends to highlight ringing artefacts more than films.

At the end of the day though, scaling algorithms are all down to personal preference, but any of the options that haven't been listed in my previous post, are objectively worse and shouldn't be used in my opinion. (because there are better options that give you a similar look with less negative effects)

[Asmodian]

I have done extensive testing with upscaling content, and I would suggest:

Chroma Upscaling: Mitchell-Netravali. This is objectively better than all other scaling algorithms in most test cases. The other option would be Bicubic 75, which handles fine details better, but can exhibit ringing.

Luma Upscaling: This is based on personal preference. My preference is to have as little ringing or aliasing as possible, which I feel is doubly important with animated content.

So personally, I use SoftCubic 80. It is soft, but it avoids exaggerating any artefacts in the source, or adding any of its own.

I think you swapped chroma and luma? SoftCubic 80 is way too soft for luma in my opinion. Why would you need Mitchell-Netravali for chroma but softcubic 80 for luma? Chroma has more issues with artifacts in the source in my experience.

Most people like the sharpness and do not notice the ringing from the sharper resizes but I do agree that once you start noticing ringing it is very unpleasant, especially with animated content. A 3 tap spline doesn't ring too much and I like the sharpness but it is also pretty close to Mitchell-Netravali or bicubic 75.

All the resizers offer tradeoffs and there really isn't an "objectively better" one.

[marsovac]

Is it possible somehow to use madVR by feeding it with a custom presenter interface?

Or at least register some callbacks which get called with the new surface for each frame?

A quick look at the interfaces seem not to have anything.

It actually impedes me from using madVR in my player which presents surfaces on a Direct3D image used as a imagesource in WPF.

WPF is part of .NET (managed world), so to transparently feed it with video while preserving speed surfaces are passed for drawing to the GPU through the native-managed barrier.

For VMR and EVR this is not a problem (allocator/custom presenter)...

For the EVR presenter I'm using feeding the renderer with the following callback:

public int PresentSurfaceCB(IntPtr pSurface)

I would like to do something similar with madVR.

Right now I can use it only with it popping out his own window / no integration with the player :(

[6233638]

I think you swapped chroma and luma? SoftCubic 80 is way too soft for luma in my opinion. Why would you need Mitchell-Netravali for chroma but softcubic 80 for luma? Chroma has more issues with artifacts in the source in my experience.

Most people like the sharpness and do not notice the ringing from the sharper resizes but I do agree that once you start noticing ringing it is very unpleasant, especially with animated content. A 3 tap spline doesn't ring too much and I like the sharpness but it is also pretty close to Mitchell-Netravali or bicubic 75.It wasn't a mistake. Mitchell-Netravali or Bicubic 75 are the only acceptable choices for chroma scaling from my testing. Anything which is softer than MN desaturates the image (particularly fine details) and anything sharper than Bicubic 75 adds too much ringing. SoftCubic is not at all suitable for chroma due to this desaturation, and compression is usually less of an issue with chroma so much as it is noise. (something SoftCubic may reduce, but in the most destructive way possible)

I fully expect most people to dislike SoftCubic 70/80 for Luma scaling, but it avoids adding any ringing to the source, or exaggerating compression artefacts, without blurring detail. After watching content for a while with it, I don't notice the softness, but rather, I can focus on the image. with other scaling algorithms, I am always noticing ringing or aliasing which is distracting me from watching the content itself.

If you prefer sharpness but can tolerate some aliasing, Mitchell-Netravali would be my recommendation for scaling, or if you want sharpness without aliasing, and can tolerate some ringing, then it would be Bicubic 75. Anything sharper (Spline 3 or Lanczos 3) adds considerable ringing for little benefit in my opinion. (there is no more detail to be brought out from the source, you're just exaggerating the edges)

All the resizers offer tradeoffs and there really isn't an "objectively better" one.I have to disagree. Any of the other options have similar levels of sharpness, aliasing or ringing to one of the algorithms on my shortlist, but are considerably worse in one (or more) of the three. Catmull-Rom is a poor choice due to (if I remember correctly) high levels of aliasing and quite a bit of ringing. Bicubic 75 or Mitchell-Netravali are objectively better due to similar levels of sharpness, but considerably less aliasing, or ringing, respectively.

[jmone]

There is also a performance advatange to use Mitchell-Netravali over Tap based scalers such as Lanczos. On an Intel i72600K (iGPU 3000) I drop frames using Tap based scalers but it is fine with Mitchell-Netravali

[G_M_C]

It wasn't a mistake. Mitchell-Netravali or Bicubic 75 are the only acceptable choices for chroma scaling from my testing. Anything which is softer than MN desaturates the image (particularly fine details) and anything sharper than Bicubic 75 adds too much ringing. SoftCubic is not at all suitable for chroma due to this desaturation, and compression is usually less of an issue with chroma so much as it is noise. (something SoftCubic may reduce, but in the most destructive way possible)

I fully expect most people to dislike SoftCubic 70/80 for Luma scaling, but it avoids adding any ringing to the source, or exaggerating compression artefacts, without blurring detail. After watching content for a while with it, I don't notice the softness, but rather, I can focus on the image. with other scaling algorithms, I am always noticing ringing or aliasing which is distracting me from watching the content itself.

If you prefer sharpness but can tolerate some aliasing, Mitchell-Netravali would be my recommendation for scaling, or if you want sharpness without aliasing, and can tolerate some ringing, then it would be Bicubic 75. Anything sharper (Spline 3 or Lanczos 3) adds considerable ringing for little benefit in my opinion. (there is no more detail to be brought out from the source, you're just exaggerating the edges)

I have to disagree. Any of the other options have similar levels of sharpness, aliasing or ringing to one of the algorithms on my shortlist, but are considerably worse in one (or more) of the three. Catmull-Rom is a poor choice due to (if I remember correctly) high levels of aliasing and quite a bit of ringing. Bicubic 75 or Mitchell-Netravali are objectively better due to similar levels of sharpness, but considerably less aliasing, or ringing, respectively.

I recognise the above; I use M-N for both luma and chroma. I found the softcubic 70/80 too soft, just as you describe.

I than sought an alternative for softcubic 70/80, that introduced as less artifacts as possible, but was sharper. I ended up with M-N for both chroma and luma, just as you description.

But a question though: Do you use the 'scale in linear light' parameter ?

[Qaq]

But a question though: Do you use the 'scale in linear light' parameter ?
I would not recommend using linear light upscaling at all
But you better read the whole post carefully.

[ryrynz]

There's already been enough talk about the resizing algorithms in this thread to cover almost anybody's questions.

[ajp_anton]

How it is configured then? In MPC-HC all Renderer settings on the right click menu are grayed out.

Edit: seems it was hidden in filters->madvr->edit settings. Very logical :S

Edit2: I was mainly interested in madvr because of the adjustable resizing stuff, very handy when 99,999% of material is below my display's resolution - so decent quality upscaling is a must.Hey, why ask how to configure it when you've already stated that it can't be configured.
And despite decent upscaling being *a must*, the renderer is still useless. Guess you can never watch movies then.

Just saying, you have some weird first posts on this site...

[Hypernova]

Finally got my 3570K working (Asus forgot to put a jumper in RTC Clock reset, made me unable to power it up. Spend half a day before I tried put one from an old hdd.)

From my initial test, Intel HD4000 handle madVR (chroma: softcubic, luma: spline 3 taps) just fine. I tried 1920x1080@23.976p to 2560x1600@60Hz and having no problem. Now I have no need for discrete graphic aside from gaming. Idle power consumption drop from ~75w to 40w as well. This is nice. :)

[Plutotype]

Finally got my 3570K working (Asus forgot to put a jumper in RTC Clock reset, made me unable to power it up. Spend half a day before I tried put one from an old hdd.)

From my initial test, Intel HD4000 handle madVR (chroma: softcubic, luma: spline 3 taps) just fine. I tried 1920x1080@23.976p to 2560x1600@60Hz and having no problem. Now I have no one for discrete graphic aside from gaming. Idle power consumption drop from ~75w to 40w as well. This is nice. :)

Thanks for the info

[pankov]

Finally got my 3570K working (Asus forgot to put a jumper in RTC Clock reset, made me unable to power it up. Spend half a day before I tried put one from an old hdd.)

From my initial test, Intel HD4000 handle madVR (chroma: softcubic, luma: spline 3 taps) just fine. I tried 1920x1080@23.976p to 2560x1600@60Hz and having no problem. Now I have no one for discrete graphic aside from gaming. Idle power consumption drop from ~75w to 40w as well. This is nice. :)
Hypernova,
can you please try some high bitrate 720p 60Hz content both in software and quick sync decode modes?
Is the HD4000 enough?
btw which Asus board are you using? I plan to rebuild my bedroom HTPC and was hoping to avoid the need for a standalone graphics card.

[nevcairiel]

720p60 content works, as long as you don't use the QuickSync decoder. Combining it with madVR is too much for the GPU.

[Hypernova]

Hypernova,
can you please try some high bitrate 720p 60Hz content both in software and quick sync decode modes?
Is the HD4000 enough?
btw which Asus board are you using? I plan to rebuild my bedroom HTPC and was hoping to avoid the need for a standalone graphics card.

If you read nevcairiel comment but still want me to try anyway, send me a clip. I don't think I have any 60p video in my collection.
I use P8Z77-V LK, since it's the cheapest Z77 board with DisplayPort available when I shop.

Edit: I tried the Avatar60p clip from the other thread (1080p) and indeed as nevcairiel said, if you use QS+madVR I got drop frames. Not sure if overclocking GPU+Ram will help.

[jmone]

...., if you use QS+madVR I got drop frames.

I use QS+madVR just fine on a i72600K-3000 with 50/60fps material under Exclusive Mode with just two changes:
- Scaling: Mtichell-Netravali look agread and are less resource intensive than the tap based ones
- Exxclusive mode settings: "run presentation in a seperate thread"

Not dropped frame in sight!

[Hypernova]

I use QS+madVR just fine on a i72600K-3000 with 50/60fps material under Exclusive Mode with just two changes:
- Scaling: Mtichell-Netravali look agread and are less resource intensive than the tap based ones
- Exxclusive mode settings: "run presentation in a seperate thread"

Not dropped frame in sight!

Well, it's fine at 1920x1080 (ie. no luma scaling) with my choice of resizer, but my monitor is 2560x1600 which at that point it drops frame. Good suggestion though. I probably won't do it personally since I mostly watch anime, and a little sharpness is good IMO.