madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Mistery 73]

which anti-bloating filter filter = 75% recommended me to use? I upscaling to 4K from 1080p bluray movies

[Asmodian]

Whichever one looks best to you. There isn't a universally recommended anti-bloating filter.

[amayra]

if i change madvr to high bitdepth output and my display does not support it
there any harm or bad effects for this ?
source : MPDN user + MPDN Options

[omarank]

So now I need your FEEDBACK:

1) Do you think NNEDI3 looks better? Or the new NGU pixart variant?
2) How does performance compare for you?
3) Can I replace NNEDI3 with NGU pixart in the next official build (pretty please)?
4) Can I replace super-xbr (for luma doubling, only) with NGU pixart in the next official build?

1) NGU Pixart looks very nice and better than NNEDI3 overall, but I find NNEDI3 more natural looking. NGU Pixart gives a flat look to the images as I see it.

2) No performance issues here. On my system with AMD GPU, for 720p23 to 1080p23 scaling, NGU Pixart Very High and NNEDI3 64n show about the same rendering times.

3) I would urge you to not drop NNEDI3. There are some other users too who want NNEDI3 to stay.

4) I haven’t been using super-sbr for some time and don’t feel the need for it either. So it does not matter to me whether super-xbr is replaced or not.

[huhn]

if i change madvr to high bitdepth output and my display does not support it
there any harm or bad effects for this ?
source : MPDN user + MPDN Options

someone else has to change the bit deep.

and just don't do it. i mean why even use high bit deep output if it isn't supported what a waste of time.

[Georgel]

So, here's a little test build. Simply replace the v0.91.5 files with these:

http://madshi.net/madVRpixart.zip

I've created a new NGU variant which I'm going to call maybe "NGU pixart" or "NGU smooth", I'm not sure yet. This NGU variant will be optionally available in addition to the already existing NGU algorithm. The "pixart" variant has a look that is quite similar to NNEDI3. Which means it's very smooth and works great to reduce aliasing artifacts in the source. However, just as NNEDI3, "NGU pixart" is quite soft. My development goal was to create a NNEDI3 successor which has similar properties, but achieves a better "quality per watt" ratio.

Currently available are NGU pixart in "low", "medium" and "very high" quality settings. The "high" quality setting internally uses the "medium" algorithm for now. There'll be a separate "high" algo in the next official build.

In order to keep my development cost low, I haven't changed the settings dialog yet. So this test build replaces the main NGU algorithm with "NGU pixart". Which means this test build does not do the main NGU algorithm at all. The one and only purpose of this test build is so you guys can directly compare "NGU pixart" to NNEDI3, for both luma doubling and chroma upscaling.

So now I need your FEEDBACK:

1) Do you think NNEDI3 looks better? Or the new NGU pixart variant?
2) How does performance compare for you?
3) Can I replace NNEDI3 with NGU pixart in the next official build (pretty please)?
4) Can I replace super-xbr (for luma doubling, only) with NGU pixart in the next official build?

If you prefer NNEDI3, please let me know why. If you think NNEDI3 looks better, please provide comparison screenshots (for luma doubling comparisons always include the original unscaled source, please).

Thanks!

1 . NGU Pixart looks better overall.

3 . If you really want to - you could.

4. I think yes at this moment.

[atcmvr]

Hi, I had a few questions about what settings to use for playback, now that I have some hardware that can actually take advantage of more of the included settings. I apologize in advance if some of it comes off as very basic. Using the latest version of madVR 64, XySubFilter_3.1.0.746_x64_BETA3, display is an Asus pg279q, and GPU is an evga gtx 1080 ftw.

First off, in the devices tab, for hdr, is it possible/recommended to use the 3dlut used for calibration? Or are they 2 completely separate things, that each need to be generated on their own? In the scaling algorithms section, for image upscaling, if you choose ngu, what is the difference between the chroma here, and the actual chroma upscaling tab? Does one take precedence, or are they doing entirely different things? And is it sufficient to leave the chroma option in image upscaling, along with the algorithms to use after doubling to "let madvr decide"? Also, I think I read that you don't really have to bother with any of the upscaling refinements if using ngu, since many of them are already applied?

Also, is ngu high/very high "better" than using nnedi with a high neuron count? Another question I had was, does bumping the gpu queue size up past 8 do anything? I ask, because on a different machine + prior version of madvr, maybe 2 years ago, increasing that option to 16 from 8 helped me avoid frame drops for the settings I had then.

Finally, what combination of settings should I use, in terms of v-sync, g-sync, and smooth motion? The monitor I have is a g-sync monitor, can go up 165hz. Normally leave it at that, with g-sync enabled, and v-sync enabled through the nvidia console as well. But for viewing content that I guess is 23.976fps, at least going by what madvr says, should I turn of g-sync? Turn off v-sync? Drop the refresh rate to 144hz? Does doing any of that even matter/change anything And which setting under smooth motion would I choose, in combination with the above?

Also had what I suppose is a bug report, though it seems to have been from nvidia's side. Thought I would mention it, in case anybody else has the same issue. Using drivers from about a month ago, I was not able to get stable playback using any of the "demanding" algorithms. Had to drop settings down to NNEDI with 16 neurons just to get sub 30 ms render times, anything above had massive frame drops, render times at 70+. I noticed however that there would be periods of time where it would drop back down to normal levels, and the gpu queue would fill up, only for the queue to empty almost immediately, and times to shoot back up again. Looking at the gpu stats, using evga's tool, noticed that the gpu looked like it wasn't being utilized properly during the time when plaback was having an issue, ie. the clock speed would drop drastically, memory speed close to zero, along with power usage. Manually forcing max speeds on both clock and memory fixed the problem, was able to use ngu very high for 720p content, high for 1080p, but obviously something was wrong there. Decided to upgrade drivers today in the hopes it would fix it, and it actually seems to have done the trick, not noticing the problem anymore. Again, just an fyi.

[kitame]

question, how does the latest IGP perform on the current MadVR scalers?
e.g. AMD's Kaveri / Godavari APUs, or Intel's Skylake / Kabylake CPUs.

is NGU too "heavy" for these IGP?

Well, watching 360x288 on a 1080p screen is the same as watching 1440x1152 (i.e. >1080p) on an 8k screen, so it will become relevant eventually, probably. That said I don't think you can expect an image to look well when scaled more than 3x in each direction, eventually you just run out of detail. I am however somewhat optimistic that for smaller scaling factors you can make it hard to distinguish between a low quality high resolution image and a high quality low resolution image.

not quite the same really, 360x288 source lacks way too much detail compared to 1080p source.
its like the gap detail between 16x16, 32x32, 64x64 and 128x128 pixel art or sprites.

[ryrynz]

1 . NGU Pixart looks better overall.


Depends on what you're viewing. The lines that NGU pixart creates are excellent but the overall look is bland, it's also sometimes not smart enough and removes detail which I've stated as it being a bit "too aggressive"


3 . If you really want to - you could.


At this point if that were to happen there would definitely be some unhappy people, me being one of them.

Here's NNEDI3 64 neurons vs NGU very high on a source I use a lot when evaluating upscalers and my own Anime Avisynth profies for low res content.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/199986

There is reasonably strong ringing and aliasing and quite soft lines, NNEDI3 enhances more of the image creating lines stronger and true to the source. Here the eyes are sharper and the image is more defined, although the lines are not as well enhanced as NGU pix very high. This is NGU's best quality and it bests even NNEDI3 256 neurons at creating these beautiful non aliased lines, notice the top shirt lines just below the neck for a good example of this. Unfortunately like I've said it also removes some things it doesn't consider to be lines, the wedge of hair just above the left eyebrow loses it's blurry left line for example.

Looking at the above you can see NGU pix's somewhat dull, processed appearance, for NGU pix to replace NNEDI3 it needs to do a better job in all areas and it's simply not doing this right now.

[kitame]

i'm seeing minor aliasing on NGU, but i can see errors on NNEDI3.

aliasing on NGU = top hair is most evident.
errors on NNEDI3 = sleeve cuff by the yellow ribbon has a broken line.

i'm using 10x zoom comparison.

[ryrynz]

Not sure what you're referring to specifically, but likely it's how it is in the source (https://mega.nz/#!rI5BRRqD!49WQf6LMMEUQpyEz-Ug8aL-OE6IkB7ZRNOagD8WOhnQ), you can take a look with another scaler. I think you're just seeing NGU doing a good job connecting the dots.
There's a lot of areas where there's drop outs of strength and aliasing along the lines, which makes it a good test for these neural network type smart scalers.

[madshi]

My bad, I didn't checked that. I have 1680x1050 display and just used "touch window from outside" in player. Additionally, I didnt'n unchecked "add grain".
I redid the comparison with zoom factor around 4x and found that NGU pix output is much closer to NNEDI3 with some presharpen (like LumaSharpen 0.3) added to NGU.
NNEDI3 64+32 vs. NGU pix med+med (http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/199827)
NNEDI3 64+32 vs. NGU pix med+med (LumaSharpen 0.3) (http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/199828)
So I carefully assume people may prefer NNEDI3 due to its sharpness, not line thinning differences.
Hmmm... I'm not sure why NNEDI3 is somewhat sharper looking, to be honest. But I'm not sure that's too important. The key purpose of both NNEDI3 and NGU is not to be sharp, but to provide aliasing-free images.

if i change madvr to high bitdepth output and my display does not support it
there any harm or bad effects for this ?
source : MPDN user + MPDN Options
What does MPDN have to do with this? When using madVR, setting madVR to high bitdepth output, when your display doesn't support it, usually results in the GPU driver converting the bitdepth down behind madVR's back. This is usually not good for image quality.

1) NGU Pixart looks very nice and better than NNEDI3 overall, but I find NNEDI3 more natural looking. NGU Pixart gives a flat look to the images as I see it.
Screenshots, please? (with source image)

1 . NGU Pixart looks better overall.

3 . If you really want to - you could.

4. I think yes at this moment.
Thx.

First off, in the devices tab, for hdr, is it possible/recommended to use the 3dlut used for calibration? Or are they 2 completely separate things, that each need to be generated on their own?
If you activate a 3dlut in the HDR section, that 3dlut is expected to perform both HDR -> SDR conversion and calibrate your display at the same time. The 3dlut in the calibration tab is not used in that case, when playing HDR content. If you tell madVR to convert HDR -> SDR by using pixel shader math, the calibration 3dlut in the calibration tab is used instead, after HDR -> SDR conversion. Both solutions should end up with nearly the same result. Obviously it's easier to just create one 3dlut for calibration and let madVR do the HDR -> SDR conversion. But the GPU consumes a bit more power this way.

In the scaling algorithms section, for image upscaling, if you choose ngu, what is the difference between the chroma here, and the actual chroma upscaling tab? Does one take precedence, or are they doing entirely different things? And is it sufficient to leave the chroma option in image upscaling, along with the algorithms to use after doubling to "let madvr decide"?
The extra chroma upscaling tab is for converting 4:2:0 YCbCr content to RGB. E.g. a Blu-Ray has an Y channel with the resolution 1920x1080, but the CbCr channels are only 960x540. So the CbCr channels first need to be upscaled to 1920x1080. That's what the extra "chroma upscaling" tab is about. Then, when all 3 channels are at 1920x1080, and if you have a 4K display, the image upscaling needs to convert the image up from 1920x1080 to 3840x2160. When using NNEDI3 or NGU, this is done separately with the Y and CbCr channels again. So you have once more the option how to handle the CbCr channels. The luma channel is more important, which is why it often makes sense to choose different settings. If you don't know what is best, I'd recommend using "let madVR decide".

Also, I think I read that you don't really have to bother with any of the upscaling refinements if using ngu, since many of them are already applied?
None of them is applied by default when using NGU, but NGU is very sharp on its own, so often no upscaling refinement is needed on top of that. But it's your decision.

Also, is ngu high/very high "better" than using nnedi with a high neuron count?
It depends on the source. With a high quality source (the resolution doesn't matter, but the quality of each pixel does), NGU is the best algorithm to use. But if the source is bad (e.g. visual aliasing or compression artifacts), the softer NNEDI3 can be better.

Another question I had was, does bumping the gpu queue size up past 8 do anything? I ask, because on a different machine + prior version of madvr, maybe 2 years ago, increasing that option to 16 from 8 helped me avoid frame drops for the settings I had then.
Using large queues requires a lot of extra RAM on your GPU. If you have enough RAM, it should at least not harm, might even be useful.

Finally, what combination of settings should I use, in terms of v-sync, g-sync, and smooth motion? The monitor I have is a g-sync monitor, can go up 165hz. Normally leave it at that, with g-sync enabled, and v-sync enabled through the nvidia console as well. But for viewing content that I guess is 23.976fps, at least going by what madvr says, should I turn of g-sync? Turn off v-sync? Drop the refresh rate to 144hz? Does doing any of that even matter/change anything And which setting under smooth motion would I choose, in combination with the above?
That's a complicated topic. Generally, G-Sync is useless for madVR, so it's probably better to disable it for video playback. Don't disable v-sync. Ideally, set your display to a refresh rate which matches the movie framerate. If you can do that, smooth motion FRC isn't needed.

Depends on what you're viewing. The lines that NGU pixart creates are excellent but the overall look is bland, it's also sometimes not smart enough and removes detail which I've stated as it being a bit "too aggressive"

At this point if that were to happen there would definitely be some unhappy people, me being one of them.

Here's NNEDI3 64 neurons vs NGU very high on a source I use a lot when evaluating upscalers and my own Anime Avisynth profies for low res content.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/199986

There is reasonably strong ringing and aliasing and quite soft lines, NNEDI3 enhances more of the image creating lines stronger and true to the source. Here the eyes are sharper and the image is more defined, although the lines are not as well enhanced as NGU pix very high. This is NGU's best quality and it bests even NNEDI3 256 neurons at creating these beautiful non aliased lines, notice the top shirt lines just below the neck for a good example of this. Unfortunately like I've said it also removes some things it doesn't consider to be lines, the wedge of hair just above the left eyebrow loses it's blurry left line for example.

Looking at the above you can see NGU pix's somewhat dull, processed appearance, for NGU pix to replace NNEDI3 it needs to do a better job in all areas and it's simply not doing this right now.
Where's the source image (not the video, but the exact frame you used for the comparison)? FWIW, NGU is currently optimized to do one 2x upscale. Although of course you can cascade it to do 2x 2x, I think that if I manage to do direct 4x, results might be better. What happens if you compare NNEDI3 vs NGU at just 2x upscaling?

-------

After some reviewing, I think the pictures I'm currently working with to create NGU algorithms are too consistently high quality with too sharp and thin lines. Basically I'm mostly using very high quality photos and a few sharp anime screenshots.

Maybe I can improve the algorithms further to also handle soft and fat lines if I add some more such images to the mix. So please help me collecting a wider variety of images. What I need are screenshots of sources (mostly anime, but also real world video/photo) which are high-res but have rather fat and soft lines in it. I need images with lots and lots of high contrast (but fat and soft) lines in them. An image with a large blurred area and just a couple strong lines doesn't help. The whole frame should have a lot of lines in them to be helpful. The images need to be aliasing free and have no (visible) compression artifacts. So they need to be high quality, *but* have soft and fat lines. Can anybody find such images for me? The exact resolution doesn't matter.

If any Anime viewer could create maybe a dozen such images for me, that might be a great help improving NGU pixart (maybe also the regular NGU) further - thanks!

(Just to avoid confusion: I need these images *unscaled* in their original resolution.)

P.S: Please zip the images and upload them somewhere for me to download. Please don't attach them to this thread, because attachment approval can take a long time in this forum.

[citrixscu]

Could be somewhat OT here, but I noticed after upgrading to the latest Windows 10 Fast Ring Build (15031), D3D11 presentation mode no longer crashes MPC-BE x64. Running x64 versions of everything and CUVID hardware decoding. Nvidia 378.57 on GTX980.

[omarank]

Screenshots, please? (with source image)

I have created screenshot comparisons (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ndx25fggbkr8lge/Comparison_Screenshots.zip) with images having different perspectives. I find NNEDI3 doubling has more natural depth than NGU Pixart. (Scaling settings used are also mentioned in a text file in the zipped folder)

[kitame]

Not sure what you're referring to specifically, but likely it's how it is in the source (https://mega.nz/#!rI5BRRqD!49WQf6LMMEUQpyEz-Ug8aL-OE6IkB7ZRNOagD8WOhnQ), you can take a look with another scaler. I think you're just seeing NGU doing a good job connecting the dots.
There's a lot of areas where there's drop outs of strength and aliasing along the lines, which makes it a good test for these neural network type smart scalers.

i'm taking about these errors on NNEDI3.
the distortion on the lines as if it was "stretched".

http://imgbox.com/igGCmjpw

[Damien147]

Is there a reason why GPU load isn't linear?I thought it could be a cpu bottleneck but look at HD cpu load,still spikes happen.

4K (http://imgur.com/a/hOmYj)

HD (http://imgur.com/a/NoKDB)

If I remember well my old HD4850 had linear load.

[huhn]

the GPU usage in GPU-Z doesn't work properly with polaris GPU.
it is jumping between 0-100 % as it pleases just ignore it.

[Damien147]

HWmonitor does the same thing.:confused:I will ignore I guess.

[ryrynz]

i'm taking about these errors on NNEDI3.
the distortion on the lines as if it was "stretched".

http://imgbox.com/igGCmjpw
No error, the source is blurry. NNEDI just doesn't really touch it much.

[madshi]

I have created screenshot comparisons (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ndx25fggbkr8lge/Comparison_Screenshots.zip) with images having different perspectives. I find NNEDI3 doubling has more natural depth than NGU Pixart. (Scaling settings used are also mentioned in a text file in the zipped folder)

Thanks, some interesting images in there. I can extract the following conclusions from these images:

1) Both NGU pixart and NNEDI3 sometimes make mistakes in interpreting the images. Maybe it happens slightly more often with NGU pixart, but I'm not completely sure.

2) NGU pixart has a significantly higher ability to smooth out jagged lines in certain angles. E.g. in your image 3, NGU pixart wipes the floor with NNEDI3.

3) There's a certain difference in the "look" NGU pixart and NNEDI3 produce. NGU pixart tends to create images that look finer structured, but maybe ever so slightly more like an oil painting, sometimes. NNEDI3 tends to create images which look a bit sharper but also slightly more bloated. I'm not sure which look is "better". It might be a matter of taste.

Maybe if enough users send me good images I can improve the algo a bit more, I'm not sure.

i'm taking about these errors on NNEDI3.
the distortion on the lines as if it was "stretched".

http://imgbox.com/igGCmjpw
I think you have the images reversed. The one you named NNEDI3 is probably actually NGU pixart and vice versa.

[Georgel]

Depends on what you're viewing. The lines that NGU pixart creates are excellent but the overall look is bland, it's also sometimes not smart enough and removes detail which I've stated as it being a bit "too aggressive"



At this point if that were to happen there would definitely be some unhappy people, me being one of them.

Here's NNEDI3 64 neurons vs NGU very high on a source I use a lot when evaluating upscalers and my own Anime Avisynth profies for low res content.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/199986

There is reasonably strong ringing and aliasing and quite soft lines, NNEDI3 enhances more of the image creating lines stronger and true to the source. Here the eyes are sharper and the image is more defined, although the lines are not as well enhanced as NGU pix very high. This is NGU's best quality and it bests even NNEDI3 256 neurons at creating these beautiful non aliased lines, notice the top shirt lines just below the neck for a good example of this. Unfortunately like I've said it also removes some things it doesn't consider to be lines, the wedge of hair just above the left eyebrow loses it's blurry left line for example.

Looking at the above you can see NGU pix's somewhat dull, processed appearance, for NGU pix to replace NNEDI3 it needs to do a better job in all areas and it's simply not doing this right now.

I see now!

Very interesting example!

I will try to get a few examples of mine!

@mdashi - what is the best method to get an "original image" example to have what to compare to?

[madshi]

Probably the media player's screenshot functionality. It's important that the original image is unscaled, and not even AR corrected. So e.g. an NTSC DVD screenshot should be 640x480.

[Asmodian]

NTSC DVD should be 720x480 if unscaled and no AR correction or cropping.

[madshi]

You're right, of course.

[huhn]

image like this "looking upscaled" with fat lines: https://abload.de/img/testktuua.png
or images like this DVD fat lines but not artifact free: https://abload.de/img/test2lru2k.png

[madshi]

They could both be helpful, I'll have to try. Maybe you can sort them into two groups?

[huhn]

here some screens:

http://filehorst.de/d/bpvwgDoI
the BD screens are from "low" bit rate (>20 mbit) VC-1 BD there is sometimes some colored noise around the lines

[kitame]

No error, the source is blurry. NNEDI just doesn't really touch it much.

no, i checked the source, it doesn't get steched like that at those spots.


I think you have the images reversed. The one you named NNEDI3 is probably actually NGU pixart and vice versa.

then that makes NNEDI3 poor in aliasing.

you can only see these things when you zoom in real close, pixel errors are hard to notice.

[atcmvr]

Thanks for the reply madshi. Definitely helped clear some things up for me. I still was a bit unclear about refresh rate and v-sync though. You say generally g-sync is useless for madvr, so it's better to disable it. Better to disable because it can potentially mess with things, or just better to turn off? No problem with turning it off, but obviously I would like to avoid doing so every time I watch something if it wasn't really necessary. Also, as an aside, render times ought to be low 30's, correct? Been trying to keep it max 32.

As for setting the refresh rate, the lowest I can set is 24fps. Other than my mouse lagging across my screen, video seems more or less fine. I do notice that smooth motion turns off, whether set to the motion judder option or the refresh rate option, but I also saw that it drops a frame about every 25 seconds. Bumping up to 144hz, a frame drop every 1.5-2 minutes or so, smooth motion off for the judder option, but on for the multiple option(makes sense, 24*6 = 144). When I turn it all the way up to 165hz though, I noticed a couple things. One, it didn't say I would have dropped frames every x anymore. And it turned on smooth motion for both the judder setting, and the multiple setting. Had to look up what judder was, can't say I've really ever noticed it myself, perhaps I never really saw a bad example in regular viewing. But I guess it's happening at 165hz, and smooth motion is on to fix it. Not sure why the multiple setting also works though. Am I correct in thinking that the unequal division of 165/24 causes some sort of judder? Was also on for 60 and 100hz.

I'm unclear as to why frames are being dropped at some levels and not others. At 100hz, 165hz no frames dropped, but as stated above, 144hz does have frame drops, in addition to 24 and 60hz. Also unsure why you would turn on smooth motion if there was no judder, ie. the refresh rate being a multiple.

Basically unsure as to what setting is best. 24hz, frame drops, no judder(at least madvr says there shouldn't be any), 144 hz, less frequent frame drops, no judder, 165hz, no frame drops, but judder(though again, not sure I can notice it), etc. The ideal I assume is neither happening.

[ryrynz]

then that makes NNEDI3 poor in aliasing.


You should really look at scaling with Lanczos or whatever to see how bad the aliasing is when anything that's not a neural network scaler isn't working on it..

Yes NNEDI3 loses to NGU on line smoothness as I said, in this area NGU is probably unparalleled, but NNEDI3 is far from poor.. It was nothing short of incredible when released.

[Q-the-STORM]

No problem with turning it off, but obviously I would like to avoid doing so every time I watch something if it wasn't really necessary. Also, as an aside, render times ought to be low 30's, correct? Been trying to keep it max 32.

You shouldn't have to disable G-Sync in general, just disable it for MPC-HC... there should be a setting in nvidia control panel, und manage 3d settings... go to the program settings tab, add mpc-hc if it isn't already there and there should be a setting where you can switch from g-sync to Fixed Refresh, or v-sync or whatever they call it these days... unless they changed that, just try it and see what madVR reports... of course if you want to be 100% sure that it's not affecting output, just disable it when you're watching video... there's probably a way to make a shortcut for that..

for 23.976fps video, render times need to be under 41ms



Basically unsure as to what setting is best. 24hz, frame drops, no judder(at least madvr says there shouldn't be any), 144 hz, less frequent frame drops, no judder, 165hz, no frame drops, but judder(though again, not sure I can notice it), etc. The ideal I assume is neither happening.

Best setting is v-sync, 23.976Hz or a multiple of 23.976Hz...
try to get as close to it as you can via custom resolution...

e.g. I'm at 23.97564Hz, madVR reports 1 dropped frame in 40min (it fluctuates between 40-50min), which is good enough for me..
if you set solid 24Hz, you will get 1 frame repeat every ~45 seconds, which is obviously not ok , that 0.024Hz makes a difference if you don't want judder...

if you get close enough to 23.976Hz or a multiple of it, you don't need FRC and you won't have judder (no dropped or repeated frames)

[madshi]

here some screens:

http://filehorst.de/d/bpvwgDoI
the BD screens are from "low" bit rate (>20 mbit) VC-1 BD there is sometimes some colored noise around the lines
Very nice - thank you!

[HillieSan]

You shouldn't have to disable G-Sync in general, just disable it for MPC-HC... there should be a setting in nvidia control panel, und manage 3d settings... go to the program settings tab, add mpc-hc if it isn't already there and there should be a setting where you can switch from g-sync to Fixed Refresh, or v-sync or whatever they call it these days... unless they changed that, just try it and see what madVR reports... of course if you want to be 100% sure that it's not affecting output, just disable it when you're watching video... there's probably a way to make a shortcut for that..

for 23.976fps video, render times need to be under 41ms


I use an AMD RX 480 with madVR and Bluesky FRC. Bluesky FRC creates a perfectly judder free smooth motion. FRC takes an 23.976Hz or 24Hz movie to 59.9..Hz or 60.0..HZ. This is the input for madVR. In this case, the render time need to be under 11 ms to avoid dropped frame. Without FRC the render times need to be below 41ms, but then I experience judder. Thus, with FRC I can use NGU medium and without FRC I can use NGU high with some more enhancements. I have two questions about this.

Could it work and is it possible to allow Bluesky FRC to work after madVR?
How can I create judder-free motion without FRC or SVP? I’ve tried CRU, but this does not work well on AMD. Also, I don’t know how to set the custom resolution on Crimson. I get incompatible settings errors.

[pose]

HillieSan, why not just use madVR's smooth motion?

[Sunset1982]

How can I create judder-free motion without FRC or SVP? I’ve tried CRU, but this does not work well on AMD.
[/LIST]
Don't you get good 23,975-23,976 hz out of the box with your amd card?

I use a AMD RX480 and I get near perfect 23,975 which will lead to dropped frames every 2-8 hours, which is good for every movie... This is why I use an AMD card and not my GTX 1060 from my second computer for HTPC usage. With AMD I dont have to use custom resolutions. With the nvidia card i got dropped frames every 20-30 seconds without a custom resolution. With custom resolution it gets near the amd solution, but then I can't use nvidias 3D mode with d3d11 anymore.

[Sunset1982]

@madshi:


is NGUpixart mainly for cgi and anime or is it good for real movies too?

Whats the main difference between NGU and NGUpixart?
NGU pixart is a "smoother" version which should be better for low quality sources, right?! Will there be a sharpening option for the pixart version?

[HillieSan]

Don't you get good 23,975-23,976 hz out of the box with your amd card?

I use a AMD RX480 and I get near perfect 23,975 which will lead to dropped frames every 2-8 hours, which is good for every movie... This is why I use an AMD card and not my GTX 1060 from my second computer for HTPC usage. With AMD I dont have to use custom resolutions. With the nvidia card i got dropped frames every 20-30 seconds without a custom resolution. With custom resolution it gets near the amd solution, but then I can't use nvidias 3D mode with d3d11 anymore.

Without FRC I get real judder, but not dropped frames. Same problem with powerDVD. Perhaps there is a setting I got wrong?

[HillieSan]

@Sunset1982

Guess what? I've disabled Bluesky FRC and tested madVR with MPC-BE on my new TV. The TV switched to 23p and everything is smooth. On the projector (JVC X5000) however it is not smooth. It turned out that the pixel panels operate on 120 Hz and for this the Clear Motion option is useful. The Clear Motion option is not needed for 60 Hz input. I had set this option to off (Bluesky FRC creates 60Hz input). Once I set it to high, the motion is smooth for 23p :-).

So, I set NGU to very high (Luma) and it works :-) Chrome is set to normal.

I am glad that the AMD RX 480 is doing its job just fine.

[MisterXDTV]

Hi, I have a couple of questions:

Why with MadVR, when I take a screenshot in MPC HC from a 4K file, it captures it in my monitor resolution instead of the native resolution 3840x2160? How can I change that?

Also can I capture a SDR converted screenshot (HDR source file)??

Thanks a lot!

[TheShadowRunner]

Am I the only one getting complete player freeze when I try to seek in DVD movies using madVR as video renderer?
Going from one chapter to the next/previous works but when I seek manually in the video, the player freezes completely.
I tried every possible combination of filters available (LAV viddec, FFdshow viddec, CyberlinkPDVD8 viddec, and the same for audiodec), and I can reproduce 100% of the time whenever madVR is in use. No such issue with the other renderers VMR7/9/Overlay.
I'm pretty sure this worked fine in the past but I haven't played a DVD in a while so no clue when it got broken (pertaining to madVR version).
Can anyone reproduce?
Edit: created a log with madvr_debug (http://videoff7.free.fr/madVR_logDVDFreeze.zip), I start dvd playback, let it play for 2 seconds, then seek: the player freezes (becomes completely unresponsive) from there the video still plays for about 20 seconds before the player auto-restarts [guard dog feature when ZP stops responding])

[sauma144]

Are you going to update or remove adaptive sharpen from madVR?
There were some changes:
https://github.com/bacondither/Adaptive-sharpen/commits/master

From wikipedia: DirectShow technology is intended to be replaced by Media Foundation ...
Is there a Media Foundation based media player in development on Doom9?
And what about madVR?

[VHT]

Madshi, any news about updating 3D mode so that 3D subtitles are drawn correctly with all 3D movies?

[Siso]

I was wondering which mode is better for an old card like mine (GTX 550 TI 1 gb) - several frames in advance or use backbuffer?

[madshi]

is NGUpixart mainly for cgi and anime or is it good for real movies too?

Whats the main difference between NGU and NGUpixart?
NGU pixart is a "smoother" version which should be better for low quality sources, right?! Will there be a sharpening option for the pixart version?
The main feature of NGU pixart is a strong anti-aliasing effect, which reduces aliasing (jaggies / stair stepping) in the source. Because of that characteristic, NGU pixart is relatively soft - at least when compared to standard NGU.

My recommendation is to use standard NGU for high quality sources, and to use NGU pixart for aliased sources like old computer game recordings and low quality anime. You may also find it useful for low quality film/video sources, but that's your decision. Basically NGU pixart is intended to be a 1:1 NNEDI3 replacement. I was hoping to replace NNEDI3 with something that has a better quality per watt ratio, and doesn't need OpenCL to be fast.

Why with MadVR, when I take a screenshot in MPC HC from a 4K file, it captures it in my monitor resolution instead of the native resolution 3840x2160? How can I change that?
How are you taking the screenshot? By pressing the PrintScreen key? Or by using MPC-HC's screenshot functionality? By pressing PrintScreen, you're getting exactly what madVR draws to your screen. If you use MPC-HC's screenshot functionality, you should get the source frame in the original resolution. Except maybe when you're using DXVA downscaling which may screw things up?

Also can I capture a SDR converted screenshot (HDR source file)??
I'm not sure right now at which point in time exactly in madVR's rendering pipeline the screenshot is made. Could be before or after HDR -> SDR conversion, I don't know. The surest way to make sure you get the SDR converted screenshot is to use PrintScreen, but obviously that will capture what is drawn to your monitor, not the original video resolution.

Screenshot functionality will be revisited in some future version, but it's not a priority right now.

Am I the only one getting complete player freeze when I try to seek in DVD movies using madVR as video renderer?
Going from one chapter to the next/previous works but when I seek manually in the video, the player freezes completely.
I tried every possible combination of filters available (LAV viddec, FFdshow viddec, CyberlinkPDVD8 viddec, and the same for audiodec), and I can reproduce 100% of the time whenever madVR is in use. No such issue with the other renderers VMR7/9/Overlay.
I'm pretty sure this worked fine in the past but I haven't played a DVD in a while so no clue when it got broken (pertaining to madVR version).
Can anyone reproduce?
Edit: created a log with madvr_debug (http://videoff7.free.fr/madVR_logDVDFreeze.zip), I start dvd playback, let it play for 2 seconds, then seek: the player freezes (becomes completely unresponsive) from there the video still plays for about 20 seconds before the player auto-restarts [guard dog feature when ZP stops responding])
Have you tried a different media player, just as a test?

Are you going to update or remove adaptive sharpen from madVR?
Didn't know it was updated, there's no post in the doom9 thread. I suppose I'll update it when I find the time. It doesn't seem to be a dramatic change, though, so I don't think it's important to do that as quickly as possible.

From wikipedia: DirectShow technology is intended to be replaced by Media Foundation ...
Is there a Media Foundation based media player in development on Doom9?
And what about madVR?
"intended to be". Haha, maybe by Microsoft. But nobody (important) uses Media Foundation in the real world, at least that I know of.

Whenever there's discussion about a breaking change, the key question is: What do we gain? When going to Media Foundation, the biggest gain we would get is better copy protection. This is a prime example of a big company totally missing what's useful for devs and users.

Furthermore, when Microsoft introduced Media Foundation, they only made it available on their latest OS at the time, but not on older OSs, which was the last nail in the coffin, if a last nail was needed at all. That was even more critical because the latest OS at the time was the big failure which was Windows Vista. OS support is not a problem today, if you're willing to sacrifize Windows XP support, but it's way too late to change now. Again, no real benefit, and we'd lose compatability with every single DirectShow software out there.

Madshi, any news about updating 3D mode so that 3D subtitles are drawn correctly with all 3D movies?
That problem is already fixed in my sources. For now you can use the NGU pixart test build which already has the fix built in. Of course all future test and release builds will have it also.

I was wondering which mode is better for an old card like mine (GTX 550 TI 1 gb) - several frames in advance or use backbuffer?
If you're in doubt, always use the default.

[Bloodred]

Hello! I've been using madVR for a long time, though I never posted in this forum. I've taken a few comparison shots comparing NGU/NGU pixart/NNEDI3, since I actually had a look at this thread after noticing that NGU really wasn't doing too well with a certain 720x480 anime source compared to NNEDI3, upscaled to 3840x2160.

I've cropped a part of the full upscaled image, since the full-size images are 15-16MB each. NGU/NNEDI were always used for 4x upscaling and I used Jinc AR to go from that to full 3840x2160.
Original:
http://abload.de/thumb/original8pql3.png (http://abload.de/img/original8pql3.png)

Chroma NGU vhigh / NGU vhigh & vhigh:
http://abload.de/thumb/ngu-vhigh_ngu-vhigh_vd5rz3.png (http://abload.de/img/ngu-vhigh_ngu-vhigh_vd5rz3.png)

Chroma NGU vhigh / NGU vhigh & normal (4x)
http://abload.de/thumb/ngu-vhigh_ngu-vhigh-4wqpqm.png (http://abload.de/img/ngu-vhigh_ngu-vhigh-4wqpqm.png)

Chroma NNEDI3 128 / NNEDI3 128+32 & vhigh
http://abload.de/thumb/nnedi128_nnedi128-32_cqo6g.png (http://abload.de/img/nnedi128_nnedi128-32_cqo6g.png)

Chroma NGU pixart vhigh / NGU pixart vhigh & vhigh
http://abload.de/thumb/ngu-pixart-vhigh_ngu-y5qkq.png (http://abload.de/img/ngu-pixart-vhigh_ngu-y5qkq.png)

As for my opinion, regular NGU is too "smudgy" for this source, this is clearly and immediately visible even while watching, not just staring at screenshots. NGU 4x is actually a bit better in this regard than applying NGU 2x twice. I think for this image NNEDI3 is much better, the configuration I use in practice is NNEDI3 + SuperRes 1 (this screenshot is without SuperRes, just NNEDI3), which is a nice compromise for me. As for NGU pixart, I like it very much! :D The "smudgy" lines from regular NGU are completely gone and I'd go as far as saying that I prefer it over NNEDI3 in terms of the image output, the outlines of the hand/figers are a bit more pleasant to me. NGU pixart is also faster than the NNEDI3 configuration I used, so as far as I'm concerned, it's a very nice scaler. I can't wait to get it as a regular option in a newer madVR version, since I do still want to use classic NGU for 1080p/720p upscaling.

Not sure if the original image is considered to be bad quality, I can't see any terrible aliasing (there's some on the branch outline) and there really isn't much I can notice in terms of compression artifacts either. In any case I've seen a lot worse.

Anyway, thanks for all the work on madVR madshi!

[petran79]

I notice that in the new version of MadVR upscaling 1280x720 resolution videos to 1920x1080 is much more demanding than in the 0.90 versions. Previously I had both luma and chroma at NNEDI13 set to 256.
I use an image of an older version

https://wiki.mikejung.biz/images/0/01/MadVR_image_double_nnedi3_gtx_970.png

had all set to 256 (only if scaling factor is 2x or bigger) and there were no dropped frames, though GPU usage was relatively high but never reaching 90+ %.

When I played the same videos of 640x480 resolution, GPU usage was like in the previous versions, though a little lower (50%)

But for 1280x720 videos, with this version the GPU (MSI GTX 1080) reaches its limits at full screen when I set the option: image upscaling: NNEDI13: doubling: 256 neurons, quadrupling:64 neurons
Anything 256 and above has dropped frames. Have to choose doubling: 128 neurons, quadrupling: 32 neurons for video to be playable below 90% GPU usage and no dropped frames

I am confused which options in 0.91.5 equal setting all image doubling options in 256 (with scale 2x) in previous madvr version. As if this version wastes GPU resources in order to upscale semi-HD videos.

[pose]

petran79, set chroma upscaling to NGU medium, image upscaling to NGU very high <-- luma. "Let madVR decide" for everything else.

[The 8472]

Did something change wrt. to taking screenshots with subtitles from xy-subfilter? I used "optimize for performance" + pressing Alt+2 to render at source resolution before taking a screenshot with subs, using alt+i, but that doesn't seem to work anymore.

[tranfa]

A little problem that maybe has already been experienced by someone else.

In MadVR settings I try to input the Display modes fit for my videos (some at 24fps, some other at 25, a very few at 30).
As long as I input just "4096x2160p25, 4096x2160p24" I don't have problems: according to the video, it adapts the refresh rate of my tv (a Panasonic 4K led). Only thing, as one might expect, stuttering for the few videos at 30fps.
If I input as well the 30, with the following logic: "4096x2160p30, 4096x2160p25, 4096x2160p24", the referesh rate goes to 30 also for the 25fps videos....and I don't understand why.
The video card is a Radeon 7700, supporting through HDMI the 4k res at 24hz, at 25 and at 30 too.
MadVR version: 0.91.4.

Do you have an idea of what I'm doing wrong?
Thanks in advance!

[huhn]

in the display mode you type in the display mode your TV/GPU support not the type of file you have.

try
2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p25, 2160p29, 2160p30, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60