madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[JarrettH]

Thanks :) So l've disabled all the upscaling refinement. Btw, I just seen a movie and with my previous settings it was looking great XD. Now, I know what the settings do thanks to your guide, but how I can go deeper, to know when a source need one of them?

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With blu-ray material, SuperRes (upscaling refinement) with a value of 2-3 was popular with the Jinc luma upscaler.

NGU-Sharp has pretty much eliminated the use of upscaling refinement because it's so sharp. Not only sharp, but it reconstructs a larger picture faithfully.

Super-xbr as a doubler or NGU-Standard with direct quadrupling are both good for SD (DVD resolution).

[SamuriHL]

This has a well understood and non-controversial answer, at least in this thread. ;)

Given those options it is always c) 8-bit RGB, even with high bit depth sources.

a) YCbCr 4:2:2 is particularly bad; madVR outputs RGB and you don't want the GPU downscaling your chroma to half the horizontal resolution! That loses 1/3 of the video information and with good dithering the bit depth is significantly less important than spatial resolution. Chroma upscaling with NGU Sharp very high is rather pointless if you then downscale it again with bilinear. [emoji14]

b) YCbCr 4:4:4 would be better than 4:2:2, but there is no reason to have the GPU do an extra conversion. Video data must be RGB for humans to view it as a color image so this is always the final format, if madVR does the conversion, the display does, or something inbetween.

Where do you see "Pure Direct"? It sounds good, you don't want any extra processing.I'll answer for them lol. Pure direct is a setting on Panasonic plasma TV's that enables 4:4:4 with no extra processing. It's something I was messing around with myself the other day and ran into my 3d issue which is solved. Pure direct is disabled in 3d mode. But for 2d using rgb full in madvr gpu and tv, pure direct is pretty sweet.

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[Siso]

Is it good to use anti-bloating filter (100%) on image downscaling?

http://imgbox.com/YKDfHkUw


Anyone?

[nevcairiel]

Judge with your own eyes. Its the only measure that actually matters.

[uusuke]

TV: sony ex700
graphics card: msi rx480
blueskyfrc version: v2.81
madvr version: 0.92.2 and 0.92.3
win 10

usually average stat is 12ms ,if I use madvr 0.92.2 , every 5- 10 seconds will burst into 20 ms, and then dropped frames, and turn off blueskyfrc on the normal, some people have encountered the same problem?
(madvr 0.92.1 will not)

[huhn]

@SamuriHL

Panasonic pure direct mode and no extra processing well no...
you may get 4:4:4 with it but that's about it and the issues with it range from banding to 3:2 judder with active sharpening. in term of PC mode Panasonic has a lot to learn...

[Manni]

This has a well understood and non-controversial answer, at least in this thread. ;)

Given those options it is always c) 8-bit RGB, even with high bit depth sources.

a) YCbCr 4:2:2 is particularly bad; madVR outputs RGB and you don't want the GPU downscaling your chroma to half the horizontal resolution! That loses 1/3 of the video information and with good dithering the bit depth is significantly less important than spatial resolution. Chroma upscaling with NGU Sharp very high is rather pointless if you then downscale it again with bilinear. :p

b) YCbCr 4:4:4 would be better than 4:2:2, but there is no reason to have the GPU do an extra conversion. Video data must be RGB for humans to view it as a color image so this is always the final format, if madVR does the conversion, the display does, or something inbetween.

Where do you see "Pure Direct"? It sounds good, you don't want any extra processing.

Agreed with the above in general, but if the color/hue controls are active on the display when sending RGB, it usually means that the display internally converts RGB to YCbCr, applies the colors/hue control and converts back to RGB.

In that case sending YCbCr 4:4:4 from the GPU means one LESS conversion (well, the same number but it's done by the GPU rather than the display), not one more :).

If the color/hue controls in the display are greyed out/inactive when you send RGB, then it means that there is no internal RGB>YCB>RGB conversion and sending RGB indeed means one less conversion.

[huhn]

but the RGB -> YCbCr conversation can be done in high bit deep in the screen the GPU is at best outputting 12 bit.

and who said you can't do that in RGB?

[Manni]

but the RGB -> YCbCr conversation can be done in high bit deep in the screen the GPU is at best outputting 12 bit.

and who said you can't do that in RGB?

The color/hue controls can only work in YCbCr AFAIK.

[huhn]

doesn't make any sense.

they may do a lot of processing in YCbCr but that doesn't mean you can't color correct an image in RGB. you can do about everything color related with a 3D LUT and that is clearly working in RGB.

[SamuriHL]

@SamuriHL

Panasonic pure direct mode and no extra processing well no...
you may get 4:4:4 with it but that's about it and the issues with it range from banding to 3:2 judder with active sharpening. in term of PC mode Panasonic has a lot to learn...Lovely. That was their claim that they have no processing if it's enabled. Sigh

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Asmodian]

In that case sending YCbCr 4:4:4 from the GPU means one LESS conversion (well, the same number but it's done by the GPU rather than the display), not one more :).

These answers confuse people, now we will have people setting their output to YCbCr 4:4:4 if they have hue adjustments while thinking it is better for some reason. Even after you say it is the same number of conversions. :devil:

As huhn said; having the display do a conversion (if it needs to be done) can be done in a higher internal bit depth and it is certainly better than having the GPU do it and and send 8-bit YCbCr 4:4:4 to the display.

Displays with broken RGB input is the only reason to use something besides RGB.

[steakhutzeee]

Thank you very much for the help you gave me to configure properly MadVR :P

Now i've a doubt. I use XYSubfilter and, i like to have subs in the black bar of the screen so to not cover the video. But this not always happens. Maybe it's because there are "forced" black bar and not the one properly generated from the letterbox?

Thank you in advance :)

[clsid]

That is a bug in XYSubfilter with italic subs. Use the ISR instead.

[el Filou]

@SamuriHL

Panasonic pure direct mode and no extra processing well no...
you may get 4:4:4 with it but that's about it and the issues with it range from banding to 3:2 judder with active sharpening. in term of PC mode Panasonic has a lot to learn...
What TV panel type(s) are you basing that analysis on?
I have tested that setting thoroughly and at least on my 2013 Panasonic plasma I have none of the problems you listed when I enable Pure Direct, the only change in picture quality is horizontally blurred chroma when it's disabled.
What it does (at least on plasmas, don't know about more modern Pana TVs) is just bypass the scaler/deinterlacer, which I guess can only work in 4:2:2 and that's why chroma is blurred when you disable it, and why you can only enable it when outputting 1080p.

[Edit] to be more precise, it's not full 4:4:4: chroma is always blurred a bit vertically even when Pure Direct is enabled. But it's still better than with it disabled.

[e-t172]

Displays with broken RGB input is the only reason to use something besides RGB.

I'm not sure that still holds when discussing 4K 10-bit HDR 60p signals, which cannot be sent as RGB 4:4:4 in current HDMI systems.

[steakhutzeee]

That is a bug in XYSubfilter with italic subs. Use the ISR instead.Thanks :) it's a setting? Or another filter?

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[el Filou]

I'm not sure that still holds when discussing 4K 10-bit HDR 60p signals, which cannot be sent as RGB 4:4:4 in current HDMI systems.Yeah we need HDMI 2.1 quick. :D

[Asmodian]

I'm not sure that still holds when discussing 4K 10-bit HDR 60p signals, which cannot be sent as RGB 4:4:4 in current HDMI systems.

Send them as 8-bit HDR 60p signals in RGB, with madVR's dithering banding is not an issue. You cannot tell the difference between 8-bit and 10-bit without turning off dithering. It is much easier to notice 4:2:2 v.s. 4:4:4 than 8-bit with dithering v.s. 10-bit with dithering.

[el Filou]

Even with HDR?
I understand that SDR with good dither down to 8-bit is fine, but doesn't HDR really need the higher precision to be displayed correctly?

[huhn]

PQ may even make it easier.

higher bit deep is less about banding it is more about noise level when dithering.
a 6 bit TN panel doesn't really show banding they are just noise just to give you an idea.

[cyberscott]

Thanks :) it's a setting? Or another filter?

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ISR is the Internal Subtitle Renderer. It is the one built into the video player.

[nevcairiel]

I'm not sure that still holds when discussing 4K 10-bit HDR 60p signals, which cannot be sent as RGB 4:4:4 in current HDMI systems.

Sending RGB 8-bit properly dithered is usually always better then sending 4:2:2 10-bit (unless your TV doesn't have a 4:4:4 mode either way, but you're screwed then regardless)

[Manni]

These answers confuse people, now we will have people setting their output to YCbCr 4:4:4 if they have hue adjustments while thinking it is better for some reason. Even after you say it is the same number of conversions. :devil:

As huhn said; having the display do a conversion (if it needs to be done) can be done in a higher internal bit depth and it is certainly better than having the GPU do it and and send 8-bit YCbCr 4:4:4 to the display.

Displays with broken RGB input is the only reason to use something besides RGB.

I'm sorry if I'm confusing people, but it simply isn't always true that sending RGB results in less conversions (or rather, as you stated initially, that sending YCbCr results in one more conversion).

It depends on the display, and it doesn't have to have a "broken" RGB input to behave that way. Most displays with color/tint controls do not apply these controls on an RGB input. They convert to YCbCr, apply the controls, then convert back to RGB.

I'm not saying it's not possible to apply these controls in YCbCr, just that it's not the way many displays behave.

Whether it's better to have the display do this extra conversion because it's done internally, I couldn't say, but personally, I check each output option with chroma multiburst patterns and with my eyes. RGB isn't always the best option. It needs to be tested, unless color/tint are disabled with an RGB input, in that case you know there is no internal conversion.

Anyway, if you prefer to simplify, be my guest :)

[huhn]

even if a TV is doing it RGB is still clearly superior.

madVR is dithering to output bit deep if the GPU is doing a conversation is is dithering too and here is the major difference a TV not made by apes is only dithering at the last stage. if the TV is terrible everything could happen.

the Chroma Multiburst is worse less on decent TVs because they don't subsample.

[Manni]

even if a TV is doing it RGB is still clearly superior.

madVR is dithering to output bit deep if the GPU is doing a conversation is is dithering too and here is the major difference a TV not made by apes is only dithering at the last stage. if the TV is terrible everything could happen.

the Chroma Multiburst is worse less on decent TVs because they don't subsample.

If you're sending 12bits there is no dithering by the GPU when sending YCC 4:4:4 as MadVR is dithering down to 10bits.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that RGB wasn't better in many cases, I was only saying that if it was better, it wasn't because there wasn't an extra conversion, as sending RGB can with many displays cause such extra conversion in the display. We don't need color and tint controls, but if they are present and active with an RGB input then the chances are that an extra conversion takes place.

If you look in my sig, I'm using RGB because after testing it's what produces the best results with my GPU and my display. So I'm not against RGB. I just don't think it's a hard rule, especially with TV/projectors (vs PC Monitors).

If I changed my display, I would test YCC 4:4:4 vs RGB and would settle on the output that gives the best results.

[nussman]

Im wanting to setup profiles finally.
What is the best guide using NGU settings?
There is no "best" and you should really read the doom9 forum rules:
https://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

[steakhutzeee]

So everyone is experiencing this bug of subs not showed in the black bars with xysubfilter? You solved using ISR?

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[AngelGraves13]

So everyone is experiencing this bug of subs not showed in the black bars with xysubfilter? You solved using ISR?

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I gave up on xysubfilter and use the internal MPC HC subtitle renderer. Haven't had an issue since.

[ryrynz]

What is the best guide using NGU settings?

Your eyes.

[Siso]

I gave up on xysubfilter and use the internal MPC HC subtitle renderer. Haven't had an issue since.

Same here.

[Fabulist]

Thank you to everyone discussing my question, I appreciate the information and everyone's input. The TV is in fact a Panasonic Plasma (TX-P65VT60E) and I suppose it can handle RGB appropriately considering there are RGB specific options (for dynamic range) for it. There are no settings being enabled or disabled (hue, colour, or otherwise) regardless of signal, with the exception of Pure Direct being forced to disabled when the signal sent is 4:2:2.

I suppose I should be sending RGB signal since there are no clarifications or anything mentioning YCbCr 4:4:4 on the TV's panel options and manual?

Two final questions:

NVIDIA's control panel can sent 4:2:2 on 12-bit (the TV supposedly can handle 12-bit/Deep Colour) but 4:4:4/RGB on 8-bit only. So when I use 4:4:4/RGB are my settings eligible for madVR's "10 bit (or Higher)" setting or should I stick with "8 bit"?

I am also using ffdshow (for SVP), besides changing the Primary output colour space from NV12 to YV12 for madVR, is there anything else I should change to ensure that ffdshow is not meddling with anything else?

Thank you in advance.

[ashlar42]

So everyone is experiencing this bug of subs not showed in the black bars with xysubfilter? You solved using ISR?Using Kodi and its video rules I use xysubfilter for material filling the screen (1.33, 1.78 and 1.85) and vsfilter for 2.35 and 2.40 movies.

It helps that I tend to have movies in HD and SD material is mainly 4:3.

[Asmodian]

NVIDIA's control panel can sent 4:2:2 on 12-bit (the TV supposedly can handle 12-bit/Deep Colour) but 4:4:4/RGB on 8-bit only. So when I use 4:4:4/RGB are my settings eligible for madVR's "10 bit (or Higher)" setting or should I stick with "8 bit"?

Stick with 8-bit, the GPU will do a second dithering step to go from 10 bit to 8 bit. It is better to have madVR do it in one step.

[varekai]

I gave up on xysubfilter and use the internal MPC HC subtitle renderer. Haven't had an issue since.
As MPC-HC project is probably at it's end can I recommend PotPlayer which has excellent settings for rendering lovely subtitles.

[Siso]

As MPC-HC project is probably at it's end can I recommend PotPlayer which has excellent settings for rendering lovely subtitles.

Mpc-be is active, potplayer is just a big complicated player...

[YxP]

As MPC-HC project is probably at it's end can I recommend PotPlayer which has excellent settings for rendering lovely subtitles.

Didn't people pick up on it almost immediately or have I missed something? Also, it's ok to have a player that's older than a week or a month ;)

[el Filou]

@Fabulist : also, stick with RGB Full.
YCbCr 4:4:4 can also use Pure Direct on the TX-*T60, but it uses limited range and the GPU is doing the conversion, so RGB Full is better.

[Manni]

One last post regarding HDR 4K60p RGB 8bits:

It turns out I was wrong and Asmodian was right, my display (a JVC RS500/X7000) is unable to display HDR 4K60p in 8bits.

When I tested this with the UB900, the JVC reported HDR in its info screen and the picture looked correct, so I assumed it was working, but I did more checks today and it looks like when playing 4K60p content in RGB the UB900 is sending SDR Rec-709, not HDR BT2020 in 8bits. I assume this is because the display is unable to display HDR 4K60p in 8bits.

So it seems that the GPU, unlike the UB900, is trying to send HDR 4K60p in RGB 8bits, which results in a corrupted (magenta) screen.

The only way to send 4K60p in HDR from the 1080 Ti seems to be YCC 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 12bits, which of course is of little interest with MadVR.

YCC 4:4:4 12bits remains the best setting on the UB900, as it automatically reverts to 4:2:2 12bits with 4K60p content.

Re the HTPC, I'll stay with RGB Full 12bits, as this works fine at 23p, 24p, 25p and 30p which are all the rates I need to use to playback commercial video content (bluray and PAL/NTSC DVDs) with the best possible quality using MadVR. When we can rip our UHD Blurays, which do have some 4K60p content, I'll look at this again.

For HDR in 4K60p (say for demos or games), I guess YCC 4:2:0/4:2:2 remains an option.

[e-t172]

So it seems that the GPU, unlike the UB900, is trying to send HDR 4K60p in RGB 8bits, which results in a corrupted (magenta) screen.

That reminds me, have you tried the very latest NVidia driver that came out two days ago? I noticed something interesting in the list of fixes (https://www.anandtech.com/show/11865/nvidia-releases-38569-whql-game-ready-driver):

HDR TV/displays have distorted colors after changing resolution in Windows Control Panel

[varekai]

Mpc-be is active, potplayer is just a big complicated player...
Nah... not complicated, been using it for years.

Didn't people pick up on it almost immediately or have I missed something? Also, it's ok to have a player that's older than a week or a month ;)
Didn't know someone continued the project, you got any links to that?
Yeah, I agree, you don't necessarily have to update, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

[Manni]

That reminds me, have you tried the very latest NVidia driver that came out two days ago? I noticed something interesting in the list of fixes (https://www.anandtech.com/show/11865/nvidia-releases-38569-whql-game-ready-driver):

Yes I tried it on release day and it produces the same result (I reported this a few posts back).

Looks like 4K60p8bits RGB is not a valid HDR mode, and the GPU should not allow it instead of forcing it.

Shame nVidia doesn't offer the option to go from HDR 4K60p 4:4:4 12bits to 4:2:2 instead of reducing the bit depth from 12 to 8 (even in YCC), that's what the UB900 does to prevent banding and it works great (of course that's not possible with RGB).

[AngelGraves13]

As MPC-HC project is probably at it's end can I recommend PotPlayer which has excellent settings for rendering lovely subtitles.

It's more actively in development now than it had been for years. I guess it just needed some fresh people to work on it.

a lot of work has gone into separating components for easy updating just in case it does fall out of development.

Tried potplayer, but didn't really like it too much. MPC BE can't keep sync with video.

[varekai]

It's more actively in development now than it had been for years. I guess it just needed some fresh people to work on it.
a lot of work has gone into separating components for easy updating just in case it does fall out of development.
Tried potplayer, but didn't really like it too much. MPC BE can't keep sync with video.
I can't find any news on MPC-HC other than this:
https://mpc-hc.org/2017/07/16/1.7.13-released-and-farewell/
As this is a madVR thread maybe this is a bit of topic.

[dvd1]

as you understand when the GPU goes to the limit?

[Fabulist]

I see, thank you for your time.

Does anyone know if I should change anything else in ffdshow to minimize its effect if any?

@Fabulist : also, stick with RGB Full.
YCbCr 4:4:4 can also use Pure Direct on the TX-*T60, but it uses limited range and the GPU is doing the conversion, so RGB Full is better.

Do you mean I should sent RGB Full signal from NVIDIA's control panel or from both NVIDIA and madVR?

I am having an inconsistency with RGB where if madVR and NVIDIA are sending a "Limited" signal range. I have to set the TV to "Full" in the RGB settings to actually get "Limited".

EDIT: el Filou sending "Full" range from either NVIDIA's control panel or madVR will result in increased darkness in dark areas and the resulting range does not feel like Limited. Also, setting the TV's RGB settings again to "Normal" instead of "Full" will get the image even darker. Am I doing something wrong/missing something?

[el Filou]

It should be like this:

TV Full, NVIDIA Full, madVR Full: best quality + consistency of brightness levels between video and Windows apps
TV Limited, NVIDIA Limited, madVR Full: use if your TV doesn't support full range or if some component has a problem with it. Consistency of levels between video and Windows apps, but more quality loss as video range is downconverted by GPU for output
TV Limited, NVIDIA Full, madVR Limited: same but less quality loss as the GPU doesn't touch madVR output, but dark and white shades will be clipped in Windows apps. Use only if your TV doesn't support full range and if you're only using the HTPC for video and nothing else

[AngelGraves13]

I can't find any news on MPC-HC other than this:
https://mpc-hc.org/2017/07/16/1.7.13-released-and-farewell/
As this is a madVR thread maybe this is a bit of topic.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1812598#post1812598

MPC HC Forum on this site, in case you didn't find it before...

And of course, Nightly builds...

https://nightly.mpc-hc.org/

[x7007]

It should be like this:

TV Full, NVIDIA Full, madVR Full: best quality + consistency of brightness levels between video and Windows apps
TV Limited, NVIDIA Limited, madVR Full: use if your TV doesn't support full range or if some component has a problem with it. Consistency of levels between video and Windows apps, but more quality loss as video range is downconverted by GPU for output
TV Limited, NVIDIA Full, madVR Limited: same but less quality loss as the GPU doesn't touch madVR output, but dark and white shades will be clipped in Windows apps. Use only if your TV doesn't support full range and if you're only using the HTPC for video and nothing else


you missconfusoin about TV FULL and Nvidia FULL ..

You need to understand it is also for PS3 and PS4 and XBOX 360/One.

If you put TV Full which is Low on LG at least same for samsung my guess, and Nvidia Full , you will have crashed dark. why ? because the TV is doing 0 -255 and when Nvidia also doing that it is crashing the black. you will crash you black if you go LOW and FULL on PS4 and Also PS3 ..

You need to choose one, preferably choosing LOW on the TV and on everything else Limited or AUTO , because then when changing between HDR or such the signal will always stay with the TV and the program won't mess it up randomly .


So last words is to use TV Low/Full , Nvidia Auto/Limited , Madvr 0-255 . for me it works perfect, the annoying brightness that on 16-235 is not visible, you can see all the bar between 17-25

[Fabulist]

It should be like this:

TV Full, NVIDIA Full, madVR Full: best quality + consistency of brightness levels between video and Windows apps
TV Limited, NVIDIA Limited, madVR Full: use if your TV doesn't support full range or if some component has a problem with it. Consistency of levels between video and Windows apps, but more quality loss as video range is downconverted by GPU for output
TV Limited, NVIDIA Full, madVR Limited: same but less quality loss as the GPU doesn't touch madVR output, but dark and white shades will be clipped in Windows apps. Use only if your TV doesn't support full range and if you're only using the HTPC for video and nothing else


The TV is being exclusively used for video/movies and absolutely nothing else.

However, none of the following work:

TV Full, NVIDIA Full, madVR Full: Extremely dark, like "Full" is being applied 3 times.
TV Limited, NVIDIA Limited, madVR Full: Looks like "Full" and not "Limited" in movies.
TV Limited, NVIDIA Full, madVR Limited: Looks too dark, like "Full is being applied 2 times.

The only one working is:

TV Limited, NVIDIA Limited, madVR Limited

Additionally, as before, for some reason the TV needs to be set to "Full" to provide a "Limited" range, and "Normal" provides a darker image - this applies in all cases.

I do not really understand what is wrong.