madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[dreamon]

Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60 Ghz
1 GB Ram

also i have Intel Graphics Accelerator installed but don't know much about the graphic card, i have a notebook.
i am using windows xp.

[namaiki]

The Intel GMA500/3150 probably isn't compatible. You could try install the latest video drivers from intel.com, but that's about it.

edit: it does work without issue on my Thinkpad X61T which has an Intel X3100.

[THX-UltraII]

thxz for your quick replies madshi & Mark_A_W.

So to be sure to have the best PQ is by enable only YV12 (Planar YUV) in the output settings of ffshow and see if all my content is played properly this way correct?

btw, Is FFdshow recommended as video decoder for the combination of MPC-HC and madVR? Or do most of you guys use another decoder such as coreAVC?

[namaiki]

All H.264 video decoders should conform to the standard and produce identical output.

CoreAVC may be fast if your CPU is kind of weak and lagging video, but the DivX H.264 decoder is nearly as fast and free.

If you do use CoreAVC, make sure that levels for input and output are both set to TV or PC.

[madshi]

Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60 Ghz
1 GB Ram
Which chipset does your mainboard use? If it's GMA 500, that should be compatible with madVR, at least on paper. Try setting the number of backbuffers to 1 in the madVR settings. Does that help?

So to be sure to have the best PQ is by enable only YV12 (Planar YUV) in the output settings of ffshow and see if all my content is played properly this way correct?
You can do that, but it's not necessary to disable the other formats. Just make sure that YV12 is *also* enabled.

btw, Is FFdshow recommended as video decoder for the combination of MPC-HC and madVR? Or do most of you guys use another decoder such as coreAVC?
I've been told that h264 decoders are supposed to all deliver 100% the same image quality, because the spec is very strict on what decoders need to do. So probably you can decide which decoder to use by different criteria, e.g. speed, or compatability, or deinterlacing options or whatever.

Personally, I'm currently using CoreAVC for h264, MS decoder for VC-1 and DScaler IVTC mod for MPEG2. (Edit: namaiki was faster...)

[nevcairiel]

Kinda OT, but speaking of decoders.. I've been trying to find the "best" decoder for interlaced 24p dvd material (so mpeg-2, not telecined). I'm currently using ffdshow with yadif deinterlacing, its good but not perfect. Any recommendations?

I would also recode it to h264 or xvid progressive if there is some awesome quality enhancement to be gained. :)

Also, the macrovision error finally hit me playing the dvd with madVR on win7 <.<

[THX-UltraII]

Just make sure that YV12 is *also* enabled

hmmm, that s strange. Because I just run a .m2ts HD file with MPC-HC and madVR as output renderer and ffdshow as decoder, WITHOUT YV12 checked in the output settings and ONLY checked RGB32, but madVR seems to run fine....

[namaiki]

THX-UltraII, what is inside the menu Play-> Filters?

[THX-UltraII]

THX-UltraII, what is inside the menu Play-> Filters?

I ll have to check this tonight. Report back asap

[namaiki]

For me, if I have only RGB32 output enabled from FFDShow video, then a fallback renderer (Video Renderer) will load which I think is VMR7 or VMR9, but either way, it uses nearest neighbour interpolation algorithm.

[THX-UltraII]

For me, if I have only RGB32 output enabled from FFDShow video, then a fallback renderer (Video Renderer) will load which I think is VMR7 or VMR9, but either way, it uses nearest neighbour interpolation algorithm.


Hmmm, now that I m thinking, it could be a Video Renderer that I saw in the list that I assumed it was the madVR renderer.

btw, do you use FFdshow as audio and video renderer for all your content? I want to see if it s possible to use FFdshow for everything. I don t like it if I use all sorts of decoders. I just want one and I think FFdshow is the decoder that can handle most input formats.

How is your ffdshow configured? Only YV12 as output renderer and everything else unchecked?

[namaiki]

Before, I was using the FFDShow video decoder for everything (all settings default, except for ffmpeg-mt selected for H.264), but now I am using the DivX H.264 decoder as I never used the post processing features of FFDShow video, and it seems to be lighter on CPU usage.

[THX-UltraII]

Before, I was using the FFDShow video decoder for everything (all settings default, except for ffmpeg-mt selected for H.264), but now I am using the DivX H.264 decoder as I never used the post processing features of FFDShow video, and it seems to be lighter on CPU usage.

I m not using any post-processing features neither. Maybe I ll switch to another decoder too. Can other decoders like CoreAVC or DivX H.264 handle all the input formats that ffdshow can?
What do you use as audio decoder?

[namaiki]

I think CoreAVC and DivX H.264 decoder only do H.264/AVC. I'm using FFDShow Audio for audio.

[THX-UltraII]

I think CoreAVC and DivX H.264 decoder only do H.264/AVC. I'm using FFDShow Audio for audio.

Ok, I ll try to play some various content tonight and see which formats CoreAVC can handle.

little off-topic: Do you also bitstream?

[namaiki]

little off-topic: Do you also bitstream?

I don't, and my monitor is 59.6Hz. kekeke

[madshi]

Kinda OT, but speaking of decoders.. I've been trying to find the "best" decoder for interlaced 24p dvd material (so mpeg-2, not telecined). I'm currently using ffdshow with yadif deinterlacing, its good but not perfect. Any recommendations?
I'm not really watching any DVDs, anymore, but I think the DScaler IVTC mod should handle this beautifully. yadif is for video content, I think. What you need is IVTC, not a video mode deinterlacer.

[Mark_A_W]

I'm not really watching any DVDs, anymore, but I think the DScaler IVTC mod should handle this beautifully. yadif is for video content, I think. What you need is IVTC, not a video mode deinterlacer.

I'm a bit confused as to whether the material in question is film based..

But the only decoder that will correctly IVTC film based 1080i TS files is the Kzeuh (Kzueh?) modified version of the Dscaler 5 decoder.

It takes in 1080i and spits out 24p, with weave correctly applied.

I use if for all MPEG2 material, DVD and TS files. It's fine with PAL DVD.

"Unofficial 1080i IVTC Dscaler Decoder" or somesuch, found on AVS Forum. Probably in Archive 1 or 2.

Good hunting.

[madshi]

But the only decoder that will correctly IVTC film based 1080i TS files is the Kzeuh (Kzueh?) modified version of the Dscaler 5 decoder.
Which is usually called "DScaler IVTC mod". A google search for that term quickly finds it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=596942

[nevcairiel]

Since i couldn't use madVR because of the macrovision problem anyway i switched the ffdshow output to NV12 and let my GFX apply IVTC, it seems pretty smooth. Will compare it to DScaler, thanks for the input. :)

[Rester]

just a quick question, if possible. Is DScaler (I mean the filter) working under Windows 7 32/64 Bit? It used to work pretty well under XP but for some unknown reasons it's crashing on W7.

[oddball]

Is there any way to get the IVTC modded DScaler to work with ffdshow's processing? So I can do IVTC on MPEG2 and resize/noise reduce/sharpen etc?

[Mark_A_W]

just a quick question, if possible. Is DScaler (I mean the filter) working under Windows 7 32/64 Bit? It used to work pretty well under XP but for some unknown reasons it's crashing on W7.

Yes, it works fine in w7 x64 (using 32 bit players/filters). It's a 32 bit filter. I use Zoom Player.

Is there any way to get the IVTC modded DScaler to work with ffdshow's processing? So I can do IVTC on MPEG2 and resize/noise reduce/sharpen etc?

Yes, you just need to set ffdshow raw video to ALL SUPPORTED and then load ffdshow after dscaler in the filter chain.

This is fiddly on MPC-HC (it's biggest weakness), but easy on Zoom Player.

[THX-UltraII]

some questions about getting the correct levels:

My goal is to have correct blacks and whites displayed by my projector and MPC-HC with the Madshi renderer.

I own a HTPC (W7 x64) with a ATI 5670 card with the 10.7 official driver installed. I m using the native HDMI output of the card and connected it (through my receiver which only passes the signal through) to my display device, a JVC HD750 projector. I m running MPC-HC and use FFDshow as video decoder and Madshi's renderer. I ve set the output range of MPC-HC to 0-255 (which is default). My projector has the setting HDMI 'standard' or 'enhanced' which has the default setting on 'standard'.

Previously I owned a 4xxx card and with this card I could set pixel format in the ATI settings to Full RGB and my projector setting 'range' to 'Enhanced'. This way I got (I think!) correct blacks and whites. With my new 5670 card this does not seem to work. Only Limited RGB and setting my projector range to 'standard' seems to give my correct levels. Setting the ATI pixel format from Limited RGB to Full RGB does not make any difference in the displayed result (at least, as I can see).

Content I play: HD movies (mostly .mks,.m2ts and .wmv), standard def. DVD's and trailers (mostly HD .mov files).

What I would like to know is HOW to exactly config my system (settings in MPC-HC, Madshi, FFdshow, my projector, ATI settings etc.) to have 100% correct results.

Thanks for all input guys.

ps. Sorry if this seems all a little off-topic but I know that there are HTPC Gurus in this thread who maybe use the exact setup as I do (except from the display device maybe but that s not so important, most display devices have a normal/enhanced HDMI setting)

[namaiki]

I ve set the output range of MPC-HC to 0-255 (which is default).

I think that setting only affects EVR-Custom Pres. Did you set the levels setting in madVR filter properties?

[THX-UltraII]

I think that setting only affects EVR-Custom Pres. Did you set the levels setting in madVR filter properties?

You re right, sorry.
No didn t set the levels in madVR, don t know on what values to set them but I think this all depends on how I set my other levels (like the ATI and projector settings). That s why I m asking.

thxz for your quick reply m8.

[madshi]

@THX-UltraII, I have a JVC projector, too, and I need to manually modify the brightness and contrast controls to make the image look right, no matter which combination of levels I choose. Furthermore, the brightness/contrast settings I used when the bulb was new have changed now that the lamp has about 1000 hours on it. Basically what you need to do is to fire up some calibration DVD or Blu-Ray and play it through madVR and then play with the level settings (on both PC and projector) and with the brightness/contrast controls (projector) to get everything set up correctly. You would have to do the same thing if you used a standalone Blu-Ray player, too, btw.

[fps]

You don't need to disable RGB32, it just doesn't get used. All settings related to the RGB conversion (dither, levels, HQ), do not have any affect when using YV12.


I own a HTPC (W7 x64) with a ATI 5670 card with the 10.7 official driver installed. I m using the native HDMI output of the card and connected it (through my receiver which only passes the signal through) to my display device, a JVC HD750 projector. I m running MPC-HC and use FFDshow as video decoder and Madshi's renderer. I ve set the output range of MPC-HC to 0-255 (which is default). My projector has the setting HDMI 'standard' or 'enhanced' which has the default setting on 'standard'.

I've got a quite similar setup with a 5670 + A/V Receiver + Projector.
I use the following settings:
ATI Catalyst Output: Full RGB + Range 0-255
madVR: TV-Levels
ffdshow: standard settings, but they don't seem to have an effect according to
You don't need to disable RGB32, it just doesn't get used. All settings related to the RGB conversion (dither, levels, HQ), do not have any affect when using YV12.
I'm working with these sample files (http://www.mediafire.com/file/0vrj2y7485wlzei/TV_LEVELS_TEST_CLIPS.rar) to see if I get the correct levels. If you can distinguish all the bars at the end of the scale you should be fine.

Those level things seem to be quite depending on the hardware though, if I change to a Nvidia G210 and leave everything else the same I have to change the madVR levels to PC levels to get proper levels (Full RGB in the nvidia settings again).

[THX-UltraII]

@THX-UltraII, I have a JVC projector, too, and I need to manually modify the brightness and contrast controls to make the image look right, no matter which combination of levels I choose. Furthermore, the brightness/contrast settings I used when the bulb was new have changed now that the lamp has about 1000 hours on it. Basically what you need to do is to fire up some calibration DVD or Blu-Ray and play it through madVR and then play with the level settings (on both PC and projector) and with the brightness/contrast controls (projector) to get everything set up correctly. You would have to do the same thing if you used a standalone Blu-Ray player, too, btw.

My JVC is ISF calibrated by a professional and this calibration was done @100hrs and last month @250hrs. The regression of a bulb, and especially the JVC bulbs, gets less above the 250 hours so my next calibration will be @1000hrs.

The ability of showing BTB and WTW has nothing to do with the contrast and brightness, these are only for calibrating. The HDMI output range, standard/enhanced is the setting thats inportant for showing BTB and WTW.

Now all I need to now is the right combination of all settings (PJ, PC, software, hardware pc etc) to show it correct.

Here is some more information about this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230121

thxz for your reply anyway Madshi!

[pankov]

THX-UltraII,
I have the same problem like you.
After I upgraded from ATI 4670 to ATI 5750 I lost the ability to set FullRGB (I mean that FullRGB now gives me the same output as LimitedRGB while with the 4670 the FULL gave me pure black and full while while the Limited gave me dark gray and light gray (dirty white) at the same brightness/contrast levels and configuration of my PJ).
So the question is "Are the new ATI cards/drivers broken or I'm not doing things right?".
Anybody else using a new ATI 5xxx card and have the FullRGB setting working?
madshi, did you find the time/money to upgrade? If I'm not mistaken you were thinking of getting 5750, right?

[THX-UltraII]

THX-UltraII,
I have the same problem like you.
After I upgraded from ATI 4670 to ATI 5750 I lost the ability to set FullRGB (I mean that FullRGB now gives me the same output as LimitedRGB while with the 4670 the FULL gave me pure black and full while while the Limited gave me dark gray and light gray (dirty white) at the same brightness/contrast levels and configuration of my PJ).
So the question is "Are the new ATI cards/drivers broken or I'm not doing things right?".
Anybody else using a new ATI 5xxx card and have the FullRGB setting working?
madshi, did you find the time/money to upgrade? If I'm not mistaken you were thinking of getting 5750, right?

answers are coming in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230121&page=2.

[THX-UltraII]

I use the following settings:
ATI Catalyst Output: Full RGB + Range 0-255
madVR: TV-Levels
Can you check if it makes a difference when you switch to Limited RGB as ati Pixel Format?


I'm working with these sample files (http://www.mediafire.com/file/0vrj2y7485wlzei/TV_LEVELS_TEST_CLIPS.rar) to see if I get the correct levels. If you can distinguish all the bars at the end of the scale you should be fine.
great! thxz

[BeNooL]

Is there any way to get the IVTC modded DScaler to work with ffdshow's processing? So I can do IVTC on MPEG2 and resize/noise reduce/sharpen etc?

Yes that's what I've been using for years now, best solution I found for MPEG2.

For FILM you get perferct 24fps with no deinterlacing (no needed on film) and when watching VIDEO content activate ffdshow's deinterlacer (yadif preferred).

Make sure you set dscaler to output YV12 and set ffdshow to accept raw YV12 input too.

[THX-UltraII]

THX-UltraII,
I have the same problem like you.
After I upgraded from ATI 4670 to ATI 5750 I lost the ability to set FullRGB (I mean that FullRGB now gives me the same output as LimitedRGB while with the 4670 the FULL gave me pure black and full while while the Limited gave me dark gray and light gray (dirty white) at the same brightness/contrast levels and configuration of my PJ).
So the question is "Are the new ATI cards/drivers broken or I'm not doing things right?".
Anybody else using a new ATI 5xxx card and have the FullRGB setting working?
madshi, did you find the time/money to upgrade? If I'm not mistaken you were thinking of getting 5750, right?

Pankov, take a look at your post on the ATI forum http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=279&threadid=136394&enterthread=y
Spyre is someone who can help us with this I think.

Maybe you can reply there too to heat the topic up a little bit.

[makakam]

About these correct level samples: is it all about seeing all the bars on the scale? I have ATI 5770 and settings RGB in CCC to limited or full doesn't make any difference. What makes a difference though, are madvr settings. If I set RGB to PC levels in madvr I can't see all the bars but when I change it to Tv levels I see all of them but the picture seems to be a bit too bright or maybe I got used to darker picture What do you think?

I've just read pankov's ATI forum thread so I get it now.

[Mark_A_W]

I think you need to adjust your brightness control when you fiddle with the levels.

You guys might be using the "right" setting, but thinking it's wrong if you haven't compensated for a change in black level by using the brightness control.

[pankov]

Mark,
there is no way RGB Full and RGB Limited should give the exact same levels with the same settings of the display/projector.
That's the whole idea of these two output modes - one should compress the signal and other one shouldn't - so if you have your display/PJ calibrated for video levels you'll get very dark picture when using RGB Full or if you have it calibrated to PC levels you should get dark gray picture when using RGB Limited but OK picture when you use RGB Full - not the exact same result with both configurations.

[madshi]

there is no way RGB Full and RGB Limited should give the exact same levels with the same settings of the display/projector.
Exactly.

Can everybody with an ATI 5xxx card please test whether switching between RGB Full and RGB Limited changes the image, when using madVR? Please report your GPU, OS and your test result.

It might also be useful for 4xxx owners to cross test, just to confirm that the problem is limited to 5xxx.

If you *do* see the same problem (no difference between RGB Full/Limited), please also take the time to post in the AMD forum:

http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=279&threadid=136394&enterthread=y

Thanks.

[Mark_A_W]

Mark,
there is no way RGB Full and RGB Limited should give the exact same levels with the same settings of the display/projector.
That's the whole idea of these two output modes - one should compress the signal and other one shouldn't - so if you have your display/PJ calibrated for video levels you'll get very dark picture when using RGB Full or if you have it calibrated to PC levels you should get dark gray picture when using RGB Limited but OK picture when you use RGB Full - not the exact same result with both configurations.


I didn't say that.

I said, that whenever you mess with the levels, set the brightness.

There is no "right" brightness setting. If there was, there wouldn't be a brightness (black level really) control.

[madshi]

There is no "right" brightness setting.
True, but there is a "right" (and a wrong) Pixel Format setting. And it seems that this feature is broken in current ATI drivers.

[Hypernova]

I see no difference between Full/Limited. On the other hand it is different when using EVR-CP. Setup as in signature.

@madshi Your link fo AMD forum seems broken.

[madshi]

I see no difference between Full/Limited. On the other hand it is different when using EVR-CP. Setup as in signature.
Is there a difference with desktop or with games?

[THX-UltraII]

Tested this morning and 100% sure that there are no differences in the result that s displayed when using madVR renderer. Tried all sorts of combinations between PF (Pixel Format) and DR (Dynamic Range, which is also a important setting involving BTB and WTW, see also this topic again for further information http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230121).

I ll do some tests tonight with PF and DR with other renderers then madVR (I ll try VMR9 and EVR Cust)

[THX-UltraII]

I see no difference between Full/Limited. On the other hand it is different when using EVR-CP. Setup as in signature.

@madshi Your link fo AMD forum seems broken.

How is it different when using EVR-CP? Is BTB and WTW not visible with one compared to the other?

I think we might have two 'problems' at the moment:"

1. there a bug in the ATI drivers that causes problems with Full/Limited RGB in PF.
2. the ati settings has no effect at all when using madVR. ATI ccc is overrided by madVR maybe? I don t know if Madshi can do something with this information, already knows about this or maybe knows it s not a problem.

Madshi? :)

[madshi]

There is nothing to discuss here. madVR behaves like the desktop, like a game. The Pixel Format setting should show an effect, but does not. This is a clear bug in the ATI drivers. I don't know what the AVIVO Dynamic Range setting does, but I guess it does not impact games or the desktop, so it also will not affect madVR. There's no use in testing with EVR/VMR. If you want to test with something other than madVR, try desktop and games.

[THX-UltraII]

There is nothing to discuss here. madVR behaves like the desktop, like a game. The Pixel Format setting should show an effect, but does not. This is a clear bug in the ATI drivers. I don't know what the AVIVO Dynamic Range setting does, but I guess it does not impact games or the desktop, so it also will not affect madVR. There's no use in testing with EVR/VMR. If you want to test with something other than madVR, try desktop and games.

Ok, so you re right then that testing in EVR/VMR has no use.

Take a look at the latest replies from Mariner888 and Cyberlolo in the AVS topic about PF http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230121&page=2. I can t get a straight and certain anwser which PF to use when using madVR: RGB or YCbCr

[madshi]

The proper setting for madVR is "RGB Full", but only if it's working correctly. That's why getting this fixed by AMD is really important.

[THX-UltraII]

The proper setting for madVR is "RGB Full", but only if it's working correctly. That's why getting this fixed by AMD is really important.

I might be wrong here but isn t RGB Limited with setting a display device to 'normal' range supposed to give the exact same result as RGB Full and display to 'enhanched'?

[pankov]

I might be wrong here but isn t RGB Limited with setting a display device to 'normal' range supposed to give the exact same result as RGB Full and display to 'enhanched'?
Visually it looks the same to me too, but I think we are loosing some visual/video data in this configuration.
anybody? madshi?

[madshi]

isn t RGB Limited with setting a display device to 'normal' range supposed to give the exact same result as RGB Full and display to 'enhanched'?
No. With RGB Full, the data rendered by madVR is sent to the display 1:1 without any changes. Only this way madVR can guarantee highest quality. With RGB Limited, the GPU driver stretches the data behind madVR's back, which will damage image quality.