madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[madshi]

I've spent a long while comparing them and NGU definitely works as it looks way better for 720p@1080p than Jinc/sxbr/NNEDI3. Cranking it from medium to high also drops frames when using SSIM 2D downscaling, so yes I'd say it works.

Another proof is that "edges soften" and "add noise" also work, PQ is quite amazing on 720p@1080p in combination with RS chroma http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/ayuluna.gif
Ok, then I'm confused why the OSD doesn't seem to work for you, though! That's really weird...

So what's your opinion on which algos need to stay and which can go (NNEDI3, SuperRes, super-xbr, NEDI)?

[CruNcher]

Tested this a little more in depth, and it's true.

It seems that NGU does produce considerably more coil whine.

Most other madVR settings produce no coil whine at all, so it makes me curious why NGU does this..

You mean coil whine as in sound i guess it can leverage more energy and transfer that into Performance as it's a simple PS 3 which ultimately means your ALUs get more stressed and so the PCB components get under more pressure result is you hear your Cards component Vibrations.

The other methods wont produce that low Render Frametimes at all continuously and not stress the Hardware as much even if they utilize it fully.

You will hear more GPU ALU Stress these days very fast because everything is Physically on the Edge and under additional Economic Value constraints.

Sometimes you can use that even better to measure your code efficiency just listen to what you System does can be more efficient then any Software Performance analysis ;)

Because the reaction time through the RTOS is super fast these days that does the Power Management and Frequency Switching bellow the OS.

[leeperry]

what's your opinion on which algos need to stay and which can go (NNEDI3, SuperRes, super-xbr, NEDI)?
I only need NGU & SR I think but as much as you've been polishing it for weeks we've only had a hand at it for a day so please give us some time before taking irrevocable decisions.

For GPU-hogging 1440x1080p60 footage I will prolly need to fall back to sxbr, whatever you decide to ditch please don't remove any SR coz I really like what they both do on motion-blur :o

Maybe a "soften edges" sub-option would be good for chroma NGU? RS chroma is tough competition you know.

[madshi]

Are you using NGU + SR? Please try NGU without SR, that actually looks better IMHO. SR kind of reintroduces a little bit of bloating into the image, IMHO.

With RS you mean "recon-soft"? Yeah, I like that one, too. It's my custom tweaked version of feisty2's original VapourSynth chroma reconstruction script. I do hope to replace it with a luma guided NGU version at some point in the future, though.

[zvans18]

I can confirm pretty nasty coil whine with NGU on a Gigabyte G1 1070 + HX750i PSU

Maybe it has something to do with the memory controller being used so much more? In my case, for 720 to 1440 doubling it has 40% load with NGU med chroma and high luma compared to 10% to low teens for NNEDI3 64 luma 16 chroma

[madshi]

There's really nothing I can do about the coil whine. Other than maybe adding an option in the future to use lower GPU clocks for madVR or something? Don't know if that even makes sense...

[zvans18]

There's really nothing I can do about the coil whine. Other than maybe adding an option in the future to use lower GPU clocks for madVR or something? Don't know if that even makes sense...

Is there any way to lower the memory impact, at least enough for experimentation? I agree it shouldn't be a factor, but despite how good NGU looks, I can't justify using it daily or even extensively testing for that matter because the whine is the loudest part of my computer and it's incredibly bothersome. And this 10 series and even the last 9 series are more susceptible than previous series, and with these newer ones being some of the only ones that can run it comfortably, we're kind of in a catch 22.

[CruNcher]

Welcome to the rise of the Consoles ;)

First of all you could try to reduce the Pre OC stress from your card Gigabyte should have a application you can also define these modes easily with AIBs call these modes mostly Silent,Game and OC ;)

Switching to Silent Mode should lower the stress

@madshi
that's not really your job @all also because the characteristics are so different you couldn't ensure it anyways to be perfect for everyone with a simple option to chose from

[madshi]

The only way to lower the memory impact would be to use DirectCompute or OpenCL, and NGU doesn't really need that because NGU is mostly arithmetic limited and not memory limited, I think. Going DirectCompute or OpenCL would make everything much more complicated, once more, and open the door to all kinds of driver issues etc. And since NGU doesn't seem to be memory limited, it probably wouldn't actually improve performance in any noticeable way, either.

There are custom GPUs from different manufacturers. Aren't there any without coil whine?

Try lowering the GPU clocks or voltages by using some tweak tool, maybe that helps?

[omarank]

So you'd like NNEDI3 to stay, but SuperRes and NEDI can go?
That's right.

[CruNcher]

Reviewers gave up on it making it part of their reviews because it's a economic physical problem that is going to stay for a while on the PC side, easiest and cheapest solution noise cancellation or headphones, though the frequencies can go extremely high.

So we can only start to build AIB databases ourselves with that information but even then it could be not 100% accurate due to system diversity (power supply efficiency) and possible manufacturing changes and of course the different testing methodologies of users themselves.

[madshi]

Here's a new test build for those of you who still can't get NGU to activate (e.g. Optimus users):

http://madshi.net/madVR091d.rar

Installation instructions:

1) Make sure you're in release mode.
2) Overwrite the files.
3) Activate debug mode.
4) Create a short log file and upload it somewhere for me to look at (don't attach to this forum).

There's a chance it might work now. If it does, I don't need a log. If it still doesn't work, please upload a log, thanks.

[nevcairiel]

There are custom GPUs from different manufacturers. Aren't there any without coil whine?

There are, or well, on some vendors its just much lower. My MSI doesn't have any noticeable audible whine that I would notice.

[Mistery 73]

I followed the steps but still not active NGU :(
excuse me as I have to create a log file?

[Mistery 73]

sorry but the problem that you can not activate NGU could also be because JRiver use?

[madshi]

There are, or well, on some vendors its just much lower. My MSI doesn't have any noticeable audible whine that I would notice.
Ok, thanks. Might be an option for some users?

I followed the steps but still not active NGU :(
excuse me as I have to create a log file?
If you followed the installation instructions then you should already have a file named "madVR - log.txt" on your desktop.

Activating release vs debug mode can be done by executing the "activate release/debug mode.bat" batch file.

sorry but the problem that you can not activate NGU could also be because JRiver use?
Unlikely.

[ryrynz]

Try lowering the GPU clocks or voltages by using some tweak tool, maybe that helps?

I've said it twice but it appears nobody bothered to read it or even try testing.. try overclocking, I can't imagine that underclocking will help any.
Like I said if you don't like it replace your card with another brand nothing else is more effective at dealing with it.
Surprising that people haven't encountered this before.. it's an age old problem..

[Mistery 73]

NGU can not select when you are viewing a movie ...

[mueslibrown]

sorry but the problem that you can not activate NGU could also be because JRiver use?

I'm using Jriver and have NGU working - you obviously have to replace the Jriver madvr install with your own to use the latest version but if you had madvr working previously then you know how to do this already ...

[mueslibrown]

I've said it twice but it appears nobody bothered to read it or even try testing.. try overclocking, I can't imagine that underclocking will help any.
Like I said if you don't like it replace your card with another brand nothing else is more effective at dealing with it.
Surprising that people haven't encountered this before.. it's an age old problem..

Agreed - coil whine is a hardware problem and down to poor quality control on the part of the hardware manufacturers. If you have coil whine your card is being pushed to its limits and if you are not overclocking then its down to poor hardware. Its not confined to specific manufacturers and even batches of the same card from the same manufacturer can have some cards that are ok and others that are not.

Some customers have RMA'ed their card until they received a good one but its pot luck.

[Mistery 73]

I'm using Jriver and have NGU working - you obviously have to replace the Jriver madvr install with your own to use the latest version but if you had madvr working previously then you know how to do this already ...

sorry what do you mean replace JRiver mad .. JRiver always uses the latest version installed by himself

[mueslibrown]

NGU is working fine for me on:

Windows 8.1 (many services disabled) on HTPC only with minimal software installed
Jriver MC 21
MSI GTX 970 OC to 1315MHz with Afterburner and 'Power' set to 106
GPU usage approx 94%
720->1080p NGU High gives 30ms
Nvidia driver 375.57

I only view 720p or 1080p on a 1080p plasma so don't do any image doubling or downscaling. Just chroma and image enhancements.

One point on naming conventions - if at some point @madshi wants to take his product mainstream then I'd ditch all the 'geeky' acronym style names - niche communities love that sort of stuff, 'joe public' just wants easy understanding ...

[ryrynz]

Some customers have RMA'ed their card until they received a good one but its pot luck.

I know, better to just try a different manufacturer and or card. Your chances of getting a card that doesn't have this issue should be higher especially if one or two people tell you their card doesn't have the issue and you get the exact same card. This has probably been discussed enough now.

[heiseikiseki]

Here's a new test build for those of you who still can't get NGU to activate (e.g. Optimus users):

http://madshi.net/madVR091d.rar

Installation instructions:

1) Make sure you're in release mode.
2) Overwrite the files.
3) Activate debug mode.
4) Create a short log file and upload it somewhere for me to look at (don't attach to this forum).

There's a chance it might work now. If it does, I don't need a log. If it still doesn't work, please upload a log, thanks.

The problem still exsists here.
Shortcut Key doesn't work in release mode.


And I found that if I active the OSD in debug mode, and then change to release mode.
Then The OSD keeps show in release mode.
But shortcut not work so the OSD can't be off.

And most of all,NGU doen't work in any mode.


Here is my smart log.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5wojr27sdodb0hi/madVR%20-%20log.7z?dl=0

Environment :
Widnows 10.
GTX860m（optimus）
NO reclock and other things might access GPU.

[CruNcher]

I've said it twice but it appears nobody bothered to read it or even try testing.. try overclocking, I can't imagine that underclocking will help any.
Like I said if you don't like it replace your card with another brand nothing else is more effective at dealing with it.
Surprising that people haven't encountered this before.. it's an age old problem..

Jesus i know this idea very well very bad in long term it's the same as "the production machine is making problems no problem turn it up higher the output override the problem, very very bad idea" you need to fix it right know not turn it up higher to make the problem even worse.
Most of these PRE OC things at very low cost are on the Edge allready and you suggesting bringing them into the RED area where they gonna to fail much faster, what for a logic is that.

[ryrynz]

Jesus i know this idea very well very bad in long term it's the same as are the machine is making problems no problem turn it up higher very very bad idea.

Long term? The effects of mild overclocking are negligible on cards kept well below their TDP. Hell that's why any card worth it's salt generally comes factory overlocked. Anyway, it's the results that matter and that's the end of it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work, no FUD plz.

[austonrush]

I'm running an EVGA GTX1070 black edition. I've not overclocked it and I have no graphic card monitoring tools running. I'm on windows 10 64 bit, nvidia driver 375.7. Player is mpc-hc, external lav filters & reclock. All the latest versions

I currently have no coil noise while use NGU high or medium.

I'm not sure if anyone is in agreement but, processing image enhancements with NGU are detrimental to overall image quality. I've turned them all off except enhance image which I've left at .5 for now.

To anyone who is using SR with NGU please follow @madshi advice and turn SR off! Big improvement as SR was causing bloating and some enhancement to artifacts IMHO. This also has the added effect of giving back a little extra performance.

For Scaling options I'm currently using and liking soften edges. The add grain seems to be static and causes a weird effect. In its current form I don't like it and am not using it.

So far I'm loving NGU for 720p >1080p with SSIM2D100 AR for downscaling. Chroma Reconsoft.

My current render Times: Soften edges @1 activated

720>1080 (NGU High, NGU High) No SR, SSIM2D100 AR, 36ms
720>1080 (NGU High, NGU Med) No SR, SSIM2D100 AR, 23ms
720>1080 (NNEDI3 128, NNEDI3 64) SR2, SSIM2D100 AR, 36ms
720>1080 (NNEDI3 64, NNEDI3 32) SR2, SSIM2D100 AR, 25ms


Thanks Madshi, I've had very little time to test NGU with lower quality 480 content.

[CruNcher]

Long term? The effects of mild overclocking are negligible on cards kept well below their TDP. Hell that's why any card worth it's salt generally comes factory overlocked. Anyway, it's the results that matter and that's the end of it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work, no FUD plz.

Most efficient is to buy a Nvidia Reference card they are entirely optimized for that Power Efficiency and lowest latency possible not Overclocking habits of some "Gamer" that needs the reviewers chart to explode and get mostly false data presented to justify his more investment above the reference.

It seems you didn't realized that the Founders Edition AIB pricing is now at the level of a mid range positioned AIB Card, where it actually belonged in the first place.

PRE Overclocking is more and more becoming useless and creates more problems, than you seem to believe it solves.

[Ver Greeneyes]

By the way, some vendors (like EVGA) will replace cards with coil whine. I don't know what factors into that - for instance, whether it matters if you send it in soon after purchase or if you can do it at any time during the warranty - but there are reports of people getting replacement cards. This isn't new to madVR in any way; various GPGPU applications like Folding@Home have run into it. So if this is your first time running into it, and you can stomach the annoyance of going through the RMA process, it might be worth at least looking into.

[aufkrawall]

So you'd like NNEDI3 to stay, but SuperRes and NEDI can go?

Removing SuperRes would be a very bad idea since it can also be useful for other scalers like Jinc.

[austonrush]

Removing SuperRes would be a very bad idea since it can also be useful for other scalers like Jinc.

Totally agree,you need it for other scalers, not everyone has a card powerful enough to run NGU. I think you can get rid of NEDI as an upscaler. Not sure why you would use it over Superxbr, NNEDI3 or NGU.

[madshi]

The only reason to use Jinc + SuperRes or super-xbr + SuperRes is performance, though, isn't it? What happens if I scale NGU down to Jinc/super-xbr + SuperRes performance?

[huhn]

it is still an x2 algorithm for the moment.

and just to remind you of the compression artifact issue running an deblock algo isn't free and is clearly needed.

[aufkrawall]

The only reason to use Jinc + SuperRes or super-xbr + SuperRes is performance, though, isn't it? What happens if I scale NGU down to Jinc/super-xbr + SuperRes performance?
It's not just performance, it's also sharpness.
1080p -> WQHD

Jinc AR + SR3:
http://abload.de/thumb/jincsr34ju47.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=jincsr34ju47.png)

NGU + SSIM 1D 100% AR:
http://abload.de/thumb/ngussimfxuwp.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=ngussimfxuwp.png)

[madshi]

it is still an x2 algorithm for the moment.

and just to remind you of the compression artifact issue running an deblock algo isn't free and is clearly needed.
Right, I forgot that Jinc + SuperRes can also handle non-integer scaling factors directly.

Deblock is needed for SuperRes just the same, at least that's my impression from the previous posts on the topic. They all seemed to say that NNEDI3+SuperRes doesn't look any better than NGU with those compression artifact ridden source files.

[madshi]

It's not just performance, it's also sharpness.
Is that added sharpness or bloating? I'm not sure. Is that NGU with or without "soften edges"?

[huhn]

Right, I forgot that Jinc + SuperRes can also handle non-integer scaling factors directly.

Deblock is needed for SuperRes just the same, at least that's my impression from the previous posts on the topic. They all seemed to say that NNEDI3+SuperRes doesn't look any better than NGU with those compression artifact ridden source files.

i'm not a friend of more than 2 times SR anyway.

and nnedi3 was never important to me NGU looks clearly better to me if the source isn't a DVD.

the scaler ireally don't like in madVR currently are:
super XBR AB softer than spline 3 AR and does strange things with sharpen edges
NEDI well not sure if it is good at anything...
reconstruction sharp/placebo is changing colors and i don't like this...

[Mistery 73]

Madshi Send is there a way to use the new madvr with Windows 10 I have tried everything but not to work ngu

[aufkrawall]

Is that added sharpness or bloating? I'm not sure. Is that NGU with or without "soften edges"?
Without, I personally prefer the sharp look without bloating of NGU.
SR3 probably tends to "bloat" (it's a lot different bloating compared to super-xbr or NNEDI3 though) a bit yes, this is especially true for some game captures with HUD elements. Nevertheless, it still looks quite natural and the image isn't blurry.
If NGU low + SSIM 1D would still be more expensive than Jinc + SR3, SR should be kept imho.

[madshi]

Well, I'm not in a hurry, we can take it easy with removing algos. But at some point I'd like to clean up a little.

[cnckane]

This may be off here but can someone recommend me settings or upload a config file for 1080p display and 480/720p/1080p movies/tv shows ? :D

I prefer balance between lower consumption and little quality enhancements.

Currently:

Artifact removal: medium/high
chroma: super-xbr:100+ar
upscaling: jinc+ar
upscaling refinement: superres 3 (only 720p or lower)
Dithering: Error Diffusion 2 + colored noise, change dither for every frame
Smooth motion: only if there would be judder

This way my GPU (R9 390) stays cool and quiet.

[leeperry]

Are you using NGU + SR? Please try NGU without SR, that actually looks better IMHO
I am yes, I just tried NGU without SR on 720p24 dancers accelerated to 30fps with Reclock at 1080p60 using FRC and I rest my case that I really like what SR LL @2 does to motion-blur, actually it's a matter of either checking "soften edges" in NGU or AR in SR and I think the latter looks better and more natural.

SR kind of reintroduces a little bit of bloating into the image, IMHO
You are the one who decided to ditch SR AB out of the blue IIRC http://forum-images.hardware.fr/icones/ohwell.gif

With RS you mean "recon-soft"?
I do, I ran more tests and nothing touches recon-soft + SR@2 to my eyes...so far at least, so I'll eagerly be awaiting any further improvement then :)

i'm not a friend of more than 2 times SR
Agreed, whatever chroma or luma SR@3 are both way oversharp. 2 is great, though.

[aufkrawall]

Agreed, whatever chroma or luma SR@3 are both way oversharp. 2 is great, though.
Depends on the scaling. For 1080p -> WQHD, SR2 hardly has any visible effect.

[Shiandow]

It's not just performance, it's also sharpness.
1080p -> WQHD

Jinc AR + SR3:
[...]

NGU + SSIM 1D 100% AR:
[...]

To me it looks like you'd be better off running a simple sharpener on the NGU scaled image, it has finer details but slightly less local contrast.

[aufkrawall]

Well, I guess I will just get used to the slightly less sharp result. At first the high sharpness of NGU hurt my eyes when quadrupling low-res cartoons, but it quickly looked more correct to me than the blurry lines I was used to before.
NGU + SSIM for 1080p -> WQHD is at least still quite sharper than just Jinc.

[jkauff]

sorry what do you mean replace JRiver mad .. JRiver always uses the latest version installed by himself
JRiver does not update their version of madVR until the new version has been tested thoroughly, which usually takes weeks at least.

There are two ways to get the latest madVR working in JRiver. You can simply overwrite the files in the JRiver madVR subfolder with the newest version, or you can install madVR somewhere else on your computer and add it as a custom option video renderer in JRiver.

[rack04]

The problem still exsists here.
Shortcut Key doesn't work in release mode.


And I found that if I active the OSD in debug mode, and then change to release mode.
Then The OSD keeps show in release mode.
But shortcut not work so the OSD can't be off.

And most of all,NGU doen't work in any mode.


Here is my smart log.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5wojr27sdodb0hi/madVR%20-%20log.7z?dl=0

Environment :
Widnows 10.
GTX860m（optimus）
NO reclock and other things might access GPU.

I have the same problem but NGU works under debug. Windows 7 Professional x64.

[Sunset1982]

Well, I'm not in a hurry, we can take it easy with removing algos. But at some point I'd like to clean up a little.

Hopefully you can get the performance of NGU (high) to a good performance level for RX480 users. If you can manage to run NGU high with a performance like NNEDI64 on RX 480, there is no reason for me to keep NEDI an NNEDI3.

If we get a good low performance version of NGU (low?), we don't need SXBR anymore, too.

Just my thoughts...

[aufkrawall]

Well, he also stuck to a HLSL SM 3.0 solution to prevent such kind of problems like we had with NNEDI3 via DirectCompute or OpenCL with old interop. Really most of bad luck that the Polaris driver sabotages even that.

[JarrettH]

Totally agree,you need it for other scalers, not everyone has a card powerful enough to run NGU. I think you can get rid of NEDI as an upscaler. Not sure why you would use it over Superxbr, NNEDI3 or NGU.

I agree. SuperRes should stay. I use it with Jinc all the time in some amount. Unless madshi makes "low" NGU faster/better than Jinc + SuperRes 2, the option should continue to be available.