madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ND2560]

hi if you untick "send HDR to display" in MADVR it wil automatically tone map the HDR movie to SDR, therefore it wont be washed out, this is ideal for those of us with none HDR TV's, projectors and early generation HDR tv's with very low NITs

Ok will try, thx!

[ND2560]

HDR isn't something you can turn off like that. The file is encoded as HDR, it will look very washed out if you view it on an SDR display without an active conversion. You need to tone map it to your display.

Use madVR's HDR tab to tone map.



No one has the documentation needed to process Dolby Vision. You need to pay a lot of money for the docs to be able to support Dolby Vision, even for a "simple" passthrough. :(

Thank you!

[mrmojo666]

Hi guys,

It's a bit OT, yestrerday i got a rx5700 xt but seems i lost totally deinterlacing capabilities, at the start i thought it was Madvr but even with vmr9 it's the same ..... anyone have similar experience with that card ?
I noticed that before with rx460 i had more option under driver video custom setting, now there is only brightness.
Already tried with DDU

thank you for any help

[Asmodian]

I finally obtained a 3090. It is crazy fast for madVR.

I can double 4K -> 8K -> 4K with NGU very high -> SSIM in 26ms at ~1900 MHz. Not that I want to but I can. :)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/madVR_3090_4Kto8K_small.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

Maxes out at 11808 MB of GPU memory used at these pointless settings.


It's a bit OT, yestrerday i got a rx5700 xt but seems i lost totally deinterlacing capabilities, at the start i thought it was Madvr but even with vmr9 it's the same

Try using DXVA2 or software decoding in LAV. Probably better to ask in that thread.

[VBB]

Now that is awesome. Congrats!

[huhn]

Hi guys,

It's a bit OT, yestrerday i got a rx5700 xt but seems i lost totally deinterlacing capabilities, at the start i thought it was Madvr but even with vmr9 it's the same ..... anyone have similar experience with that card ?
I noticed that before with rx460 i had more option under driver video custom setting, now there is only brightness.
Already tried with DDU

thank you for any help

i have been reporting driver bugs like these from the start. navi can do deint. try software deint in lav filter. if you see soemone again taht says i have no issue with the AMD driver just say you could at least test default features to learn this is untrue.

beware deint was broken with polaris too but they fixed it ~6 month later. BTW they had the same issue where is was using bilinear as deint but for some reason it got worse with navi and now is just combing most of the time.

could be fixed next version could be never fixed. this is BTW by far not the only thing that's broken.

[mclingo]

indeed, SDR EVR renderer still broken and rendering in wrong colour space, still have to set up a 235-255 shader toggle but I rarely use this, its just annoying its been broken so long, cant think of anything else broken right this minute though that affects MADVR.

[mrmojo666]

Try using DXVA2 or software decoding in LAV. Probably better to ask in that thread.

indeed with software decoding i can use software deint

i have been reporting driver bugs like these from the start. navi can do deint..

indeed, SDR EVR renderer still broken and rendering in wrong colour space, still have to set up a 235-255 shader toggle but I rarely use this, its just annoying its been broken so long, cant think of anything else broken right this minute though that affects MADVR.

Thank you guys

[el Filou]

beware deint was broken with polaris too but they fixed it ~6 month later. BTW they had the same issue where is was using bilinear as deint but for some reason it got worse with navi and now is just combing most of the time.What the hell, not even what they previously called "vector adaptive" anymore?
This is really disappointing, my HD 4650 had the best hardware deinterlacing I've seen, even better than my 1050 Ti. This rules out any update to an AMD card for me whatever perf/watt they have as I still watch a lot of 1080i. :(
Edit: read in the LAV thread that mrmojo666's issue doesn't happen with MS Films & TV app. Looks like AMD doesn't care anymore about backward compatibility with DXVA2. :mad:

[Greenhorn]

AMD seem to consider all graphics/compute APIs other than Vulkan/DX12 and possibly DX11 deprecated.

[lanzorg]

Is smoothmotion working without issues in the new "beta" release?
http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure114.zip

[chros]

He said it is fixed and no one complained yet (I don't use it). But it's a time limited version.

[Manni]

I have a really weird problem. Using Windows 10 all latest updates with a 2080ti latest drivers, also earlier drivers.

I'm using madvr v113 and v114 with Kodi 17.7 dsplayer.

When I use madvr with mpc-be outside kodi there are no problems. everything works normally.

As soon as I use report bt2020 to display with Kodi 17.7 dsplayer, the video levels are changed from full range 0-255 to limited range 16-235 and jvc projector reports bt2020 color always. The nvidea settings remain unchanged and changing them and changing them back doesn't make any difference. All settings look good, but the drivers operation is now permanently locked to limited range and bt2020 output.

Once this happens the only way I've found to get back to normal operation is to delete the drivers and reinstall.

Rebooting pc, turning off the entire system all makes no difference.

I'm really at a loss as to cause of this and how to trouble shoot it.

Can you confirm if you're using 10 or 12bits, and if yes, please try using 8bits and see if it solves it. I have noticed such levels mismatches issues in HDR vs SDR when using 10/12bits.

Not a solution, just to try to isolate the issue.

I also use the report BT2020 flag and I don't have this issue in 8bits with the latest drivers (on 3090 see details in my sig).

[Asmodian]

I must say a 3770K paired with a 3090 is an awesome HTPC. :D

[mclingo]

i guess anything paired with a 3090 is an awesome HTPC :)

[Manni]

I must say a 3770K paired with a 3090 is an awesome HTPC. :D

My ryzen 5950X arrives this week-end, it was ordered on launch day but I missed the first batch so was on a waiting list :)

I have everything else ready (ASRock X570 Creator, 32gb RAM, 2 x 2TB Corsair PCI 4.0 SSDs etc).

Not really a HTPC though, it's going to be primarily an editing / video creation workstation. Gaming and HTPC duties will be on the side :)

The 3770K is still a great CPU though for a HTPC. I would have kept it if I didn't have other reasons to upgrade. It will end up in the family PC.

[SamuriHL]

I agree. Had my motherboard not died on me I'd have probably kept mine another year.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

He said it is fixed and no one complained yet (I don't use it). But it's a time limited version.

Yes SM is working well. v114 working very nice. Madshi said he'd release a new version before it stops working in March. You could also change the date on the PC and continue using v114 btw.

[huhn]

What the hell, not even what they previously called "vector adaptive" anymore?
This is really disappointing, my HD 4650 had the best hardware deinterlacing I've seen, even better than my 1050 Ti. This rules out any update to an AMD card for me whatever perf/watt they have as I still watch a lot of 1080i. :(
Edit: read in the LAV thread that mrmojo666's issue doesn't happen with MS Films & TV app. Looks like AMD doesn't care anymore about backward compatibility with DXVA2. :mad:

yeah about that. it doesn't work anywhere correctly even DXVA/D3D11 scaling is "totally" busted. just forcing p010 output in lavfilter is resulting is something that should not happen with AMD cards and hardware video stuff.
it's over an year now and they didn't even notice...

if i have to prove it yet again i can do it.

[chros]

I finally obtained a 3090. It is crazy fast for madVR.

I can double 4K -> 8K -> 4K with NGU very high -> SSIM in 26ms at ~1900 MHz. Not that I want to but I can. :)
Impressing! What about dxva2-copyback? :)

Maxes out at 11808 MB of GPU memory used at these pointless settings.
That's really interesting! I'll give 4k doubling a try on my 1060 6GB :D

[Asmodian]

Impressing! What about dxva2-copyback? :)


Not a significant change, perhaps 0.5 ms slower for average rendering times with 4K HDR.

[huhn]

wow finally a user that get's the "same" as my i3.

[zind1703]

Control vs DLSS 2.0: Can 540p Match 1080p Image Quality?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWIKzRhYZm4&t=309s

Why does it not work in movies ?
Is it possible to open it in a driver ?

[el Filou]

Isn't that how NGU Sharp works?
The difference being DLSS uses the dedicated tensor cores to do it, and NGU Sharp doesn't have those artifacts on edges seen in that video (I don't know if it comes from the use of lower precision tensor cores, of from NGU using much more processing power to do the work, probably a bit of both).
There are users of madVR that force doubling using NGU Sharp then use a sharp downscaler even when displaying at the same definition as the source video, to achieve sharpening.

[SirMaster]

Control vs DLSS 2.0: Can 540p Match 1080p Image Quality?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWIKzRhYZm4&t=309s

Why does it not work in movies ?
Is it possible to open it in a driver ?

DLSS needs to be trained on 16K rendered footage from each game that it is added to.

For movies we need a generic solution that is trained on a variety of movies and all that madshi has to feed it was 4K source material.

[nevcairiel]

DLSS needs to be trained on 16K rendered footage from each game that it is added to.

This is no longer true, DLSS 2.0 does not use per-game training anymore.

But either way, DLSS itself is trained for sharp video game footage, not video. We already have neural network based video upscalers though, that concept is not a new one. NNEDI3 is a popular one. And I believe NGU in madVR also uses that concept, and many others.

[KoKlusz]

DLSS was created for real time rendering, it's useless for video streams.

[huhn]

just look at the images it really bad (in incontrol) the reason people like it is that it is sharper the huge artefacts are just ignored. you could simply run a sharpener that doesn't ring like that and get an better results which may be slower.

madshi has already confirmed that NGU is currently retrained and 16 bit will be used too. and that's done using tensor cores nvidia RTX cards.

[tp4tissue]

My AOC 24G2 pc monitor specs report 250 nits.. reviewers measured about 300. But it doesn't fit your description, as it's not local dimming. In this case, is it better with standard sdr content?

I know I can just test it and see what I like the most, but I like hearing opinions from the more experienced folks.

Thanks

There are alot of problems with measurements on the internet, is it 300 nit at 6500k , it could be 300 nits at 6800k and alot of monitors ship with default white points at crazy values like 7500k

So, unless you measure and tune it yourself, not knowing is still a problem.

4K hdr content is ALWAYS better than 1080p sdr content.

We're not at the point where producing 4K discs is so cheap that poorly made garbage is getting though.

As for tone mapping, Madvr makes assumptions, and it assumes whatever value you give it. But that value is not truly meaningful unless the monitor is calibrated or profiled (3dlut).

luckily madvr's hdr will still look pretty decent without any of that. The one thing that you might be missing out on is proper 2.2 gamma. The majority of monitors out there have botched gamma curves out of the box.

[Scrambler]

No one has the documentation needed to process Dolby Vision. You need to pay a lot of money for the docs to be able to support Dolby Vision, even for a "simple" passthrough. :(

Thanks. I thought that DV metadata is encoded in a manner of HDR10 metadata (except the case, when there is a separate video stream used to encode luma data), so it can just be passed through, and the monitor will deal with it (my monitor supports DV profile, and I'm able to run it in DV mode in Battlefield 1 and Mass Effect Andromeda, but with DV I have to use DV LL decoder in the form of Dolby Vision Extensions for Movies and TV app on Windows 10, which is not quite convenient).

[DMU]

How to activate a saved profile in madVR forcibly?

[huhn]

you can give it a hot key.

[LordX2]

Ok, so I am nuts and back at another attempt to pass through HDR to my projector, and see if I can get it set right to where I don't NEED tone mapping.

Running into a 'black crush' wall..

I set my Nvidia to RGB Full, MadVR to Limited, and PJ to limited.

I then selected Pass through HDR to Display, and checked send metadata.

When I have metadata checked, the display automatically converts to HDR (and shows as HDR in the PJ settings). However, my black levels are crushed. When I use the black level video (http://aaa-computerrepair.com/zip/02.%20black-level-v2.mp4) - I see NONE of the numbers - so totally crushed... (and no wonder I have felt that HDR seems 'dim'!!)

When I switch OFF the 'send metadata' - the projector does NOT show as being in BT.2020 or HDR. I can force the setting to HDR10 in the projector settings (which does look good on the PJ) - but the PJ is still not automatically registering that it is in BT.2020....

Also, regardless of the metadata setting, MadVR shows that it is outputting in DCI-P3 (HDR 1000 nits BT.2020 -> DCI-P3) - why is this? Can I have MadVR output in BT.2020 directly? Maybe that would help my issue?

I am totally confused - any help is greatly appreciated!!!

[LordX2]

Edit:

I have my Nvidia output set to RGB Full 12Bit.

So even though it isn't telling the projector it is HDR, it is still showing D3D11 10bit fullscreen windowed as the output. So it has the 'full' bit depth that it should natively.

Windows still shows output as SDR though when I check the display settings.

Anyway, when I FORCE select HDR10 on my projector - the picture comes alive... it looks GREAT. And I am down to 14ms frame timings since I am not doing all the HDR to SDR processing.

Have I found a 'loophole' for tone mapping? E.g. am I getting 'free' tone mapping through my projector? Or something similar?

[huhn]

no device is able to display 10000 nits so every HDR device has to be to tone map.

[LordX2]

I figured out the black level issue - had to set a custom range in MadVR - just bumped the black cut off from 16 to 19 and that seemed to do the trick.

[tp4tissue]

How does madvr handle the rec2020 color container primaries, does it retarget them ?

[brazen1]

no device is able to display 10000 nits so every HDR device has to be to tone map.

"MadVR shows that it is outputting in DCI-P3 (HDR 1000 nits BT.2020 -> DCI-P3) - why is this?"

1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.

I think the -> DCI-P3 is referring to what the source was mastered in, not what it's outputting which is BT.2020.

[Alec246]

Guys, I'm having trouble setting my MadVR for 4k60 Videos from Next Gen Games. I watch them on a 1440P monitor using SSIM 1D Downscale.

My 5700 has a special Profile for 4k60, but I'm Getting 19ms and Dropping Frames. Which one should I drop first? "Chroma Upscaling from NGU High Quality to Medium Quality" or "Image Upscaling - Doubling - NGU Anti-Alising Medium"? What is the most important one to be higher? Other suggestions?

Thanks!

[brazen1]

I don't know much about games but as a rule of thumb, 4k doesn't need to be image upscaled because it's already at the highest scale but it could benefit from chroma upscale. So, if you're running out of resources with a 4k video, lower luma. Once you do, you might even be able to raise chroma a bit. Fwiw, on the flip side luma becomes more important than chroma when using lesser resolution video you want upscaled to your native display resolution such as 2160p. I don't know much about 1440p and how gamers flip flop resolutions around though.

[el Filou]

If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.Yeah but LordX2 is using a projector.So even though it isn't telling the projector it is HDR, it is still showing D3D11 10bit fullscreen windowed as the output. So it has the 'full' bit depth that it should natively.
Windows still shows output as SDR though when I check the display settings.
Anyway, when I FORCE select HDR10 on my projector - the picture comes alive... it looks GREAT. And I am down to 14ms frame timings since I am not doing all the HDR to SDR processing.
Have I found a 'loophole' for tone mapping? E.g. am I getting 'free' tone mapping through my projector? Or something similar?"D3D11 10 bit fullscreen window" is just the type of output surface from madVR to the GPU, this doesn't indicate if it's SDR or HDR.
So if I understand correctly, you're saying that by outputting HDR as if it is SDR and then manually forcing the mode on your display, you don't have crushed blacks anymore?
As huhn said, if your projector is running in HDR mode it has to tonemap, it's just that the quality of its tonemapping is most probably of lesser quality than madVR's tonemap.

[Alec246]

I don't know much about games but as a rule of thumb, 4k doesn't need to be image upscaled because it's already at the highest scale but it could benefit from chroma upscale. So, if you're running out of resources with a 4k video, lower luma. Once you do, you might even be able to raise chroma a bit. Fwiw, on the flip side luma becomes more important than chroma when using lesser resolution video you want upscaled to your native display resolution such as 2160p. I don't know much about 1440p and how gamers flip flop resolutions around though.


Sorry forgot to show you my Settings

https://i.ibb.co/VNgR9Hh/NGU.jpg (https://ibb.co/VNgR9Hh)

[LordX2]

If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
Yeah but LordX2 is using a projector."D3D11 10 bit fullscreen window" is just the type of output surface from madVR to the GPU, this doesn't indicate if it's SDR or HDR.
So if I understand correctly, you're saying that by outputting HDR as if it is SDR and then manually forcing the mode on your display, you don't have crushed blacks anymore?
As huhn said, if your projector is running in HDR mode it has to tonemap, it's just that the quality of its tonemapping is most probably of lesser quality than madVR's tonemap.

The experience with the crushed blacks still has me confused.

When the video was in Fullscreen windowed 10bit mode - the blacks are crushed - and I have to adjust my MadVR range output to 19 for the black instead of the normal 16 for limited.

However, if I alt-enter and make the video windowed, it switches to 8 bit windowed, and then shows all the black bars.

So the black crush is happening on Windowed Fullscreen 10 bit.

Does that help explain anything?

Also a question on MadVR tonemapping and HDR output. I remember Asmodian saying that he used MadVR to tonemap, but then output the video as HDR for his screen. Why would you do this? To take advantage of the full BT.2020 (or DCI-P3) color scheme?

[Asmodian]

Don't use 10 bit. :p

I usually use passthrough but the reason to tone map HDR is to use madVR's tone mapping instead of my TV's. Both methods take advantage of the full color gamut but madVR's is customizable and potentially better.

If you use madVR's tone mapping but do not output HDR the display will stay in SDR mode, on a projector this is fine but with an OLED TV switching to HDR mode offers a much better HDR image.

[huhn]

"MadVR shows that it is outputting in DCI-P3 (HDR 1000 nits BT.2020 -> DCI-P3) - why is this?"

1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.

I think the -> DCI-P3 is referring to what the source was mastered in, not what it's outputting which is BT.2020.
a file reports the native gamut but is still BT 2020 just ignore it.
my line is more about how HDR works even a 1500 display is tonemapping even a 4000k display is tone mapping. so the question is not if something is tone mapped it is who is tone mapping. just send it the TV nothing wrong with a 1000k+ display.

it has nothing todo with colorspace nothing to do with levels.

[LordX2]

Don't use 10 bit. :p

I usually use passthrough but the reason to tone map HDR is to use madVR's tone mapping instead of my TV's. Both methods take advantage of the full color gamut but madVR's is customizable and potentially better.

If you use madVR's tone mapping but do not output HDR the display will stay in SDR mode, on a projector this is fine but with an OLED TV switching to HDR mode offers a much better HDR image.

I am watching HDR10 content - so wont it always be 10bit?

If I am watching HDR10 (BT.2020) content, on SDR (BT.709) how am I taking advantage of the full color gamut?

Man I hate being a noob! hahaha

[Alec246]

If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
.

But how do I disable Image Upscaling? In the Image Upscaling Tab, there is Upscaling and Doubling. Choosing Doubling NGU is considered Upscaling? How do I disable it?

Chroma Upscalign should I try to keep NGU? And I'm trying SSIM 2d Downscale but I may have to go back to 1D

[huhn]

as long as you are not setting it to supersample madVR will automatically not use it if upscaling is not needed.

[Alexkral]

The upscaling settings are not used in your config, try Bicubic60 to downscale, I doubt that you can tell the difference.

[Asmodian]

I am watching HDR10 content - so wont it always be 10bit?

Set your display to 8 bit, under devices->[display]->properties

madVR's dithering is very good, even ordered dithering which is very fast outputs great quality 8 bit video from HDR10 content. The high bit depth is important for the compressed source video (the compression does not preserve dithering) but not for the full bandwidth output of madVR.

I do prefer both the "use colored noise" and "change dither for every frame" disabled. I especially do not like "use colored noise". :o

If I am watching HDR10 (BT.2020) content, on SDR (BT.709) how am I taking advantage of the full color gamut?

It is important to separate the concepts of HDR v.s. SDR from DCI-P3 v.s. BT.2020 v.s. BT.709 color gamuts. These are two independent concepts, though they are correlated in most consumer content. You can have SDR DCI-P3 or BT.2020 content and BT.709 HDR content.

Color gamut is exactly what color the primary colors are (Red, Green, Blue). They are a property of your display and you need to convert the source to be correct on your display. BT.709's max red is a less saturated red than DCI-P3's max red but with a good DCI-P3 to BT.709 conversion all but the most saturated colors will look the same.

HDR is a different and more dynamic way to do what was done by SDR's gamma value. This is to map the digital values to actual pixel brightness. Because humans see differences in dark shades much more significantly (our visual response is logarithmic) we change the brightness of the display a lot less between (16,16,16) and (17,17,17) than between (128,128,128) and (129,129,129). HDR allows this map to be dynamic because the display has more information about the content to be able to convert the brightness range of the master into the range the display can actually present.

The point is basically to be able to compress the very bright highlights, like point light sources, a lot while keeping the normal brightness range uncompressed so it doesn't look low contrast in most of the scene. This is assuming the brightness of the mastering display is higher than the consumer display but it is possible to use the HDR metadata to tone map to a brighter display as well.

Man I hate being a noob! hahaha

Everyone was a noob at somepoint. :)

Chroma Upscalign should I try to keep NGU? And I'm trying SSIM 2d Downscale but I may have to go back to 1D

Try enabling the trade quality for performance option "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance". In the right situation it can save a lot of performance, arguably without a quality hit (the output is slightly different but not necessarily lower quality).