madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[THX-UltraII]

Not an easy answer for that. If you lower your chroma upscaling settings, does it go away? If you´re using EVR instead of madVR, is there a lip-sync problem? Take a look at your GPU usage (GPU-Z) and CPU usage (task manager), while you´re playing the files. If you´re CPU/GP is not overloaded, it´s not a problem of your hardware, rather your settings/filters/playback chain or your source files

I will try to lower the chroma upscaling setting and see if it goes away. If it does not, I will try to use EVR instead of madVR as output renderer.

The biggest problem is that the lip sync issue can only be seen after a very long playback time without pausing the movie (pausing the movie and play it again fixes the lip sync issue). So testing takes a lot of patience and time. I can only see it very clear after 2 hour movie playback or longer.

[Dodgexander]

Doesn't seem to work very well with interlaced 1080i 25fps TV recordings I have, it introduces a lot of judder. 1080p@ 25fps works great though as does 576i 25fps material.

On a second computer, I can't get it to work without bad judder with a 24fps movie either, but I am not sure if thats because the video card is so low end (Radeon HD5570) or not. What kind of requirements are needed?

Oh settings are all default on both computers btw.

Spoke to soon, there is also judder with 576i 25fps material also.

[huhn]

I will try to lower the chroma upscaling setting and see if it goes away. If it does not, I will try to use EVR instead of madVR as output renderer.

The biggest problem is that the lip sync issue can only be seen after a very long playback time without pausing the movie (pausing the movie and play it again fixes the lip sync issue). So testing takes a lot of patience and time. I can only see it very clear after 2 hour movie playback or longer.

is the file maybe broken?

madvr drops/repeats frames so thinks like that should never happen. what did the madvr osd say how high is the clock deviation.
when this only happens with smooth motion make a bug report but i don't see the problem at madvr.

[AndreaMG]

I'm very interested to hear nevcairiel's, madshi's, and everyone else's opinions on frame interpolation (SVP) vs frame blending (FRC). I know this is a subjective question but I'm only looking for opinions.

Frame interpolation does generate artifacts, the highest the settings, the highest the fluidity, the highest the artifacts are. I do not mind the artifacts, on the other hand I find content with less than 50 or 60 (real or interpolated) fps almost unwatchable... It's really a matter of taste. Give SVP a try. I cannot live without it :)

[adhara]

Hi,

I would avoid any misunderstanding about my knowledge on how the smooth motion functionality works.
Can someone please summarize the advantages of using this feature ?

I currently use JRMC with ROHQ (MadVR / LAV).
On JRMC, there is a similar functionality called "Videoclock".

Is that the same thing ?

With Videoclock, I can set the output frequence compared with the native video track frequency.

Thanks for the clarification.

[noee]

@adhara:
Read here about VideoClock (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/VideoClock)in JRiver. Obviously not the same thing as madVR FRC, though potentially complimentary as is described above regarding Reclock. Simply put, madVR FRC "eliminates" judder caused by framerate/refresh rate mismatch. So, for example, on TVs/monitors without native 24p (?interpolate to 60Hz?), FRC smooths playback at 60Hz.

[adhara]

@adhara:
Read here about VideoClock (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/VideoClock)in JRiver. Obviously not the same thing as madVR FRC, though potentially complimentary as is described above regarding Reclock. Simply put, madVR FRC "eliminates" judder caused by framerate/refresh rate mismatch. So, for example, on TVs/monitors without native 24p (?interpolate to 60Hz?), FRC smooths playback at 60Hz.

@noee

Thanks.
So you suggest to use both videoclock and madVR FRC ? Any contraindication in doing that ?
Here in France, the TV rate is 50Hz and mine (Pioneer Kuro) is fully 24 Hz compatible.
Is madVR FRC usefull in my own case ?

regards.


Other point:

About the table below:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7114/madvr.png

I heard some guys saying that softcubic 80 gives a better result than Jinc 3 or Bicubic 75 or Lanczos for both chroma and image upscaling. Is that correct ?

This chart was posed more as a question than as a statement. It is fine for luma but unnecessary, maybe even inadvisable, overkill for chroma. Just stick with bucubic for all but the lowest.

See :http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77288.msg524119#msg524119

To be honest, I don't see much differences between them except for GPU / CPU load :D
For now, I've set chroma and image up to softcubic80 (+AR) and image down to CatmullRom (AR+LL).

I only have a HD4000 (1350 MHz) as GPU. Not sure Jinc 3 will work fine w/o a dedicated graphic card.

[noee]

I'm currently testing scenarios with VideoClock on and off with FRC on, playing back 24p SD/HD material at 60Hz (my TV doesn't support native 24p). Right now, I don't see a difference with VideoClock on or off, it's working great and beats the heck out of my TV's "conversion" of 24Hz to 60Hz.

Fwiw, I prefer Jinc3 Chroma. For SD playback (on 1080 TV), I prefer Jinc3 w/AR image upscale. YMMV, trust your eyes, but of course, your hardware is likely a performance limitation.

I'm currently testing with AMD HD6570.

[Asmodian]

I heard some guys saying that softcubic 80 gives a better result than Jinc 3 or Bicubic 75 or Lanczos for both chroma and image upscaling. Is that correct ?

I personally don't like softcubic more than what is suggested in that table. I don't really like a soft image and maybe I do not notice ringing quite as much as some people do, though with AR on ringing is pretty minimal. If you are on "low" you could give soft cubic a try and see if you like it better.

I really like the look of Jinc 3 but, yes, an HD4000 doesn't like Jinc.

[adhara]

I personally don't like softcubic more than what is suggested in that table. I don't really like a soft image and maybe I do not notice ringing quite as much as some people do, though with AR on ringing is pretty minimal. If you are on "low" you could give soft cubic a try and see if you like it better.

I really like the look of Jinc 3 but, yes, an HD4000 doesn't like Jinc.


With my HD4000, I can use the "high" preset (bicubic / Lanczos) w/o any problem.
Is bicubic better than softcubic ? There is no much topic / forum where guys talk about the differences between MadVR algorithms.

I've got a low profile graphic card not yet installed on my passive HTPC (Radeon HD6450). Do you think this card will able me to run Jinc 3 ?

thx

[huhn]

i can use jinc 3 ar on my hd4000 but only for luma but with lanczos for chroma.
only tested with 23p
resizing isn't always about better it's all about taste.

[aufkrawall]

I see some very noticeable "flickering" in some scenes with smooth motion (23,976fps@60Hz).
Is this to be expected?

[Asmodian]

With my HD4000, I can use the "high" preset (bicubic / Lanczos) w/o any problem.
Is bicubic better than softcubic ? There is no much topic / forum where guys talk about the differences between MadVR algorithms.

There have been many pages discussing the resize algorithms in this thread but given the page count I understand being unable to find them now. From what I have seen a lot of the advice on the net about MadVR resize is from before both Jinc and anti-ringing. I like that chart, I watched as some thought was put into it and it is current. :)

With anti-ringing I like bicubic better than softcubic. From what I remember, softcubic doesn't use the part of bicubic that "undoes" some of the blur but causes ringing. As madishi's anti-ringing works so well there is no reason to use softcubic now imo.

I've got a low profile graphic card not yet installed on my passive HTPC (Radeon HD6450). Do you think this card will able me to run Jinc 3 ?

I don't think so, that is a very low end card. :(

I hope it is a DDR5 one, if it uses DDR3 it is probably slower than the HD4000. It will not be a significant upgrade from the HD4000. It looks about the same performance.

[trip_let]

Depends on how much you're scaling by, and material.

If there are sharp chroma transitions, you're scaling like 360p or lower to 1080p or higher, differences will definitely be noticeable for some luma upscaling algorithms. Otherwise, to some extent, people are really sweating the small stuff, which may not really make much of a difference in practice. Or it could be next to invisible. IMHO softcubic is better for lower-quality material that may have artifacting and other problems already. You're blurring out problems as well as details. For higher-quality content, I'd take a sharper algorithm, both luma and chroma.

I kind of like the chart as well as a general guideline, but I don't like ringing and would never use anything sharper than bicubic 75 on luma (and maybe not even that much) without anti-ringing. Depends on the material though, as always.

I don't think any HD 6450 uses GDDR5.

[e-t172]

Technically the FRC algorithm simulates a display with infinite refresh rate. Which means that every video frame is displayed exactly when the timestamps ask for it. Consequently the motion smoothness depends on proper timestamps. If the timestamps (or audio clock) contain jitter, the playback will contain jitter, too. So even if Reclock might not be needed to avoid frame drops/repeats, anymore, when using madVR's new FRC algorithm, you might still want to use Reclock, because it provides a stable and reliable audio clock with very low jitter

@Niyawa: Reclock is recommended to provide stable audio clock and timestamps. No need to change speed, but it's your decision really ;p

I'm really skeptical about this. The good old default DirectSound audio renderers provide a clock which reflects the audio clock. It's designed that way because audio drops/skips are much more noticeable than video drops/skips. Aside from features like WASAPI, I really don't see the point in using ReClock in audio clock slaved mode. The clock provided by ReClock in slave mode should behave in exactly the same way as the clock provided by the default audio renderers.

[Asmodian]

@trip_let
Personally I don't think using a blurry resize is the best way to PP low quality video but to each their own. I just watch the blocks and mosquito noise. :p

I don't think any HD 6450 uses GDDR5.

It may be discontinued but:
Radeon HD 6450 512MB 64-bit DDR5 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102947)

But you are right, chances are adhara's is a DDR3 card.

[adhara]

@trip_let
Personally I don't think using a blurry resize is the best way to PP low quality video but to each their own. I just watch the blocks and mosquito noise. :p



It may be discontinued but:
Radeon HD 6450 512MB 64-bit DDR5 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102947)

But you are right, chances are adhara's is a DDR3 card.


Yes my Sapphire Radeon HD6450 (40$) is a 1GB DDR3.
IMO best fore me is to wait for the new IGP (Hasewell GT3).
I read it will be 3x more powerful than the HD4000.

[madshi]

It ignores multiples though... If you have 23.976 fps and a refresh rate of 95.904Hz or 119.88Hz, FRC is always turned on with the first option. Same with 59.94 fps & 119.88Hz.
Hmm, when playing back 30 fps on 60 it enables frc with first frc option, is that intended?
Can you two please retest with the next build? I've added some logging to find out why FRC gets activated in your case. I wasn't able to reproduce the problem here. The log should help to get to the bottom of this.

It´s a PC recording (50p), please take a quick look at my sample, as it´s very hard to explain. It´s definitely smoother than non-FRC, but because of that wobble effect it´s very annoying to watch. Use fullscreen and focus on the edges of moving objects.
@madshi
I have one channel on DVB with news bar on bottom, and with smooth motion enabled text are blinking a little, looks better without smooth motion. I have tested on 59.94Hz.
Take a look: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16282309/PSN.ts (top bar - black letters)
Anything can be done or it's how it suppose to look like.
Yes, I agree that these 2 have problems with FRC on. From the tests I've done so far it seems that 50fps@60Hz seems to be the hardest thing to make look good. I'm not sure if I'll be able to fix that. I'll think about it. I think the problem is caused by some frames being sharp (almost no blending) while others are soft (near 50%/50% blending). Maybe artificially softening the sharp frames could remove the blinking effect. Of course that would result in lost sharpness...

Madshi, good work as awlays, but I don't like the motion smoother for everything. It's not as bad as the interpolators, but it still looks too much like video to me.
It does not artificially smooth motion. It just displays motion true to the source. If you think that motion is too smooth when using madVR's FRC then the only explanation would be that you've been tortured so long with bad motion judder that you can't enjoy proper playback now, anymore.

I'll have to test more sources, but it does not do The Wire, which I ripped from dvd and converted to 23p x264 files any favors at all. Some blu-rays look good and others don't.
Those that don't look good to your eyes: Why don't they look good? Is the motion too smooth? If so, then you need to shake your head and get rid of years of judder torturing. If you see new artifacts (like flickering, ghosting, whatever) caused by madVR's FRC then please let me know. In that case a sample might help.

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation, now it makes sense. I have checked that registry path and for me it only contains these entries:

(Standard)
LastSettingsKey
Settings (shouldn´t this be a subkey? it´s a binary value with "0 0 0 0")
ShowOsd
ShowOsd_

So it seems there is something definitely going wrong if madVR doesn´t correctly write the settings there. Just FYI, I have full access rights to that folder!

EDIT: It looks like madVR doesn´t create a Settings subkey but instead it creates a Settings binary value (see above) and thus madVR cannot store and read-back any values. Should be easy to fix for you!
It's supposed to be a binary value. The contents of that binary value should be identical to the contents of the settings.bin file.

Yes I might try that, either doubling with SVP to ORIGINAL * 2 = 47.95~, or ORIGINAL * 5 / 2 = 59.94~ and then use madVR to help with the slight difference between that and my display.
If you let SVP upinterpolate to 59.94 then I'd rather suggest to use Reclock to get rid of frame drops/repeats instead of madVR's FRC because using FRC for that would reduce video sharpness.

In this case can I clarify that

1) madVR listens to the upstream filter, ie ffdshow outputting 48hz for example?
madVR listens to what the upstream filter reports in its pin connection information. I don't know if ffdshow writes the correct information in there when using SVP.

2) madVR smooth set to "only if there would be motion judder without it..." should help with the slight differences between refresh rate and output rate even if its tiny like 0.06~hz difference? Thanks again.
madVR set to that will disable smooth motion FRC when your source is 59.940 and your refresh rate is 59.940, too. If you force smooth motion on, it will take care of any small or big Hz differences, but if the source frame rate is near to the refresh rate (or even higher) there will be a visible sharpness loss. FRC is best used if the display refresh rate is noticeably higher than the movie framerate. The higher the better...

I am using the new FSE path, and was set to 8 queues. Even at 16, I'm still seeing the same thing.

The image is somewhat smoother, but still judders, and has noticeable ghosting from the frame blending. It reminds me of the old NTSC > PAL transfers we used to get back in the 90s, but not quite as bad.

I was checking with the Casino Royale Blu-ray, as that is my go-to disc for testing anything, as it includes scenes for just about anything you need to evaluate on a display/video processing.

As I said though, maybe I am just really sensitive to it, or maybe it depends on how good the motion handling of your display is. If your display is already blurring everything with motion, maybe you won't notice the blended frames.
You seem to be dead set on that what you're seeing is a general problem with the FRC algorithm. I'd say the chances of that are rather small. I think it's very likely that on your PC for whatever reason the blended frames are shown longer than they should be shown, because that would exactly explain what you're seeing.

I think I prefer the judder to less judder plus ghosting.
Of course. But with a properly working smooth motion FRC algorithm you should see neither judder nor ghosting compared to true 24fps@24Hz playback. Of course FRC isn't perfect, but it should achieve at least 95% of the motion smoothness of 24fps@24Hz without any visible ghosting during playback.

Of course if you record the frames that madVR draws (e.g. with Fraps) you can see the blended frames and they look awful. But in motion they should not be visible - unless your GPU shows them for 2 vsyncs instead of 1.

Sorry if this has been asked already, but why does smooth motion conversion not work if display is at 60Hz and video has 29.97 or 59.94fps?
It "works" but it's not activated by default with the "if there would be judder otherwise" option because the framerate and refresh rate are reasonable close in this situation, so there's a frame drop/repeat only once in a while. I've thought about whether I should auto activate it for these situations, too, but I decided against it because it does visibly reduce sharpness if movie framerate and display refresh rate are close. You can force FRC on manually by pressing a key shortcut, or you can choose a different FRC configuration to force it on for these situations, too.

By default, the top 2 options in the "trade quality for performance" are checked. Should I uncheck both?
If your GPU is fast enough: Yes!

Would it be possible to add an option to temporarily disable FRC during seek as well as window->fullscreen, and delay re-enabling by a couple seconds to allow the render queue and vsync readings to stabilize (preferably independent from the existing delay playback options). Something like this seems like it's needed to avoid the temporary FRC instability and severe blurring artifacts in these cases.
Let me first fix the bugs before even thinking about such a workaround. Maybe the bugfixes will already take care of this.

In the registry the Settings value exists but it has no value (regedit says zero-length binary value).
Weird!! What happens if you remove that registry value and change settings again? Is it being created again with zero size?

madshi, nothing new to 0.86.0 but for me, even with delay playback until render queue is full checked, I usually get 1-2 frame drops on playback start, or if I have mpc set to repeat a sequence, after the sequence restarts, I can see the queues drop to 0 and I again will get 1-2 drops. Just thought I would mention it as I had a clip on repeat this evening testing something, and noticed lots and lots of frame drops in the stats, all coming from the each start of the sequence. I'm not sure if madVR waits for all queues to fill up before starting playback or just some?
It waits for the render queue to be full.

Madshi, FRC's overhead is enough to make it detrimental on low-end cards (nvidia gt520 for example), is it possible to make FRC smart enough to auto-disable itself (even when enabled in the settings) if it detects GPU loads of 99%?
As you are probably aware, with FRC enabled at 100% GPU load frames appear out of order.
The out of order problem is a bug and will be fixed. madVR currently does not know the GPU load. Disabling FRC temporarily is a bit of a problem because it totally changes the presentation timing mode. Everytime I switch FRC on/off there can be a small "jump" in the image. So I'd prefer to not enable/disable it all the time. Let's first fix the bugs and then check how it's then...

Now here's my doubt - is this a LAV issue, such as: it doesn't feed the subtitle stream correctly to the madVR renderer; or is it a madVR issue, such as: madVR isn't compatible yet with the way LAV handles subtitle streams?

Thank you all for your attention, and have a great day
madVR is not responsible (or even able) to draw the subtitles at the moment. So the issue can't be with madVR, I think. Try asking nevcairiel about this in the LAV thread. He might need a sample of your DVD (menu).

so how is it supposed to look? bascially that way that the test pattern looks about half fine, but that any 24fps real movie content should look about as smooth on 60Hz now as it does on a native 24Hz TV?
madVR doesn't magically turn 24fps content into 60fps content. It should still look like 24fps content, so it's not perfectly fluid, as true 60fps content is. But it should not contain 3:2 pulldown judder. It should be as smooth as 24fps with a native 24Hz TV is.

madshi should make this clear in big red letters, judging from how many people misinterpret this ;)
Yeah. Well, I tried to explain it in the v0.86.0 release notes, but it seems to be a hard concept to grasp...

I'm very interested to hear nevcairiel's, madshi's, and everyone else's opinions on frame interpolation (SVP) vs frame blending (FRC). I know this is a subjective question but I'm only looking for opinions.
No, *please* don't start OT discussions in this thread. madVR does not do frame interpolation, so discussing whether you like frame interpolation does not belong here.

Doesn't seem to work very well with interlaced 1080i 25fps TV recordings I have, it introduces a lot of judder. 1080p@ 25fps works great though as does 576i 25fps material.

On a second computer, I can't get it to work without bad judder with a 24fps movie either, but I am not sure if thats because the video card is so low end (Radeon HD5570) or not. What kind of requirements are needed?
It should work fine on a 5570 if you don't set the scaling algorithms too high. You may want to check if the queues are all full. Also make sure the queues are not too small. Finally, try again with the next build.

Can I have a sample of that 25i content which doesn't look well for you?

Here in France, the TV rate is 50Hz and mine (Pioneer Kuro) is fully 24 Hz compatible.
Is madVR FRC usefull in my own case ?
The best solution is probably to set your TV to the refresh rate which matches your source framerate. So for TV stuff set your TV to 50Hz. If your TV can display that with smooth motion (not all TVs can) there's no need to use madVR's FRC algorithm. The FRC is really meant to be used for displays which can't handle certain refresh rates well.

I did get a debug log, not sure where to put it though, it's too big for pastebin :/. Will try the older madVR now.

EDIT: madVR 0.85.8 works perfectly fine, no freezes. Debug log at http://www.mediafire.com/?8bccowyzwncogr5

EDIT 2: To be completely clear, this only happens in FSE mode, if I stick to windowed mode it never freezes.
Thanks, should be fixed in the next build.

Will test if I still experience my frame drop issue with 60fps videos and provide logs if true.

Edit: Issue still exists, here is the debug log:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ikqkbswscavjjay
Thanks, that log helped. The issue is caused by jitter in the audio clock. However, I hope to have worked around it. Please retry with the next build. If the problem still occurs, please upload another log. Thanks.

I see some very noticeable "flickering" in some scenes with smooth motion (23,976fps@60Hz).
Is this to be expected?
Some samples would help. The more the better...

I'm really skeptical about this. The good old default DirectSound audio renderers provide a clock which reflects the audio clock. It's designed that way because audio drops/skips are much more noticeable than video drops/skips. Aside from features like WASAPI, I really don't see the point in using ReClock in audio clock slaved mode. The clock provided by ReClock in slave mode should behave in exactly the same way as the clock provided by the default audio renderers.
The problem is that the good old default renderers do not interpolate the clock, so basically the clock doesn't move forward smoothly. Instead it stands still, then jumps when an audio block finished playing. This results in jitter during playback. I think Reclock does this better. But I don't really know for sure.

[6233638]

As madshi already commented on before, screenshots will always look rather bad with blending, you need to compare and judge from moving images, and not from individual screenshots, so these serve no real purpose, but spread FUD, imho.Well that's exactly what I see when things are moving, so I'm not sure how that is "FUD".

It probably has more to do with how your display handles image persistence than its motion resolution though - you will probably only see it on LCDs with scanning backlights.

Its not meant to make 24p content as smooth as 60fps content, its just meant to remove motion judder. Its not a frame interpolator, it does not invent new frames to create more fluid motion, it just presents the existing frame in a way that avoids any motion judder.My issue is that I still see judder, not that I am expecting it to interpolate. At the end of the day, I will be outputting 24Hz anyway, but I am not seeing the results as intended at 60Hz.


Personally I hate the blurring that happens when the camera pans. I haven't tried SVP before but as DragonQ has pointed out, films will be moving towards higher and higher fps as are refresh rates already. In the next decade we'll most likely start to see and get used to the new normal standards.Motion blur when the camera pans is typically caused by the shutter speed used - switching to 48fps doesn't guarantee that this will change at all. 48fps does allow for higher shutter speeds to be used, but does not require it. All a higher framerate guarantees is smoother motion and less judder.

If film gets a new standard for framerate, I hope it's 30 rather than 48.I would hope for 30 or 60. I don't want to be buying a new TV until 4K OLED is here and affordable.

so I'm back on CRT FTW: dead silent, 20K:1 CR, 96Hz support, abysmal black level, how hard was it huh.Be thankful that you can't hear over 15kHz then! I would also suggest 72Hz if you can tolerate the flicker.

And if we get enough fine-grained control for madVR LUTs in the future, you can do some neat tricks with CRT for "infinite" contrast.

[madshi]

madVR v0.86.1 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* fixed: saving settings failed when madVR couldn't write to its own folder
* fixed: sometimes old frames were flashing up when using smooth motion
* fixed: seeking in exclusive mode could result in a freeze
* fixed: high bitdepth content showed artifacts when using DXVA scaling
* smooth motion FRC is now auto turned off for DVD menus
* improved exclusive mode presentation timing with jittery audio clock a bit

[adhara]

madshi, you're a wizard :sly:

[THX-UltraII]

2 questions:

1. How do I fix the BTB (grey desktop) problem that the Intel intergrated Graphics 2000 has?

2. How can I make a 23,976Hz custom profile? The default 23Hz profile is 23,972 and I want to aim for 23,976XXX. When I choose Custom Resolutions I can only fill in round number and no numbers like 23,976, only 23/24/25 etc.

[Niyawa]

[removed] Okay after I updated to 0.86.1 the bug disappeared, whatever it was causing it is gone now.

Also, could you take a look at this little fellow post (http://haruhichan.com/forum/showthread.php?7545-KCP-Kawaii-Codec-Pack&p=12834&viewfull=1#post12834). He seems to be having problems with exclusive mode off (windowed I believe) and when you see the youtube video he posted, it kinda reminds me of tearing but I'm not sure. Apparently he changed his monitor refresh rate to 24 hz to match the 24p video to eliminate judder but got that problem instead.

I've got a low profile graphic card not yet installed on my passive HTPC (Radeon HD6450). Do you think this card will able me to run Jinc 3 ?
I made that chart with a GTX 260 in mind, since it's the "lowest" card I've found that is able to play with Jinc (as long it's not 60p content). This is also information I got from this forum so it can't (or shouldn't) be wrong. The only way to really know is for you to trying and watching for yourself.

You also remembered me to put that in my signature to share with others, not many people are aware of that thing.

[aufkrawall]

It "works" but it's not activated by default with the "if there would be judder otherwise" option because the framerate and refresh rate are reasonable close in this situation, so there's a frame drop/repeat only once in a while. I've thought about whether I should auto activate it for these situations, too, but I decided against it because it does visibly reduce sharpness if movie framerate and display refresh rate are close. You can force FRC on manually by pressing a key shortcut, or you can choose a different FRC configuration to force it on for these situations, too.

Ok. Well, then I will stick with display mode change for them.


Thanks, that log helped. The issue is caused by jitter in the audio clock. However, I hope to have worked around it. Please retry with the next build. If the problem still occurs, please upload another log. Thanks.

Looks good, thanks. No more dropped frames.
Will record a longer 60fps video and test that one too.


Some samples would help. The more the better...

Sample 1 still looks very unsmooth with FRC. I can't say for sure if maybe this has to be since I can't watch it in native 24Hz atm.
Download:
http://www22.zippyshare.com/v/7254850/file.html

With sample 2, watch for the dust between the trees. It looks very nervous/flickering with FRC. Without not. imho clearly an unwanted side effect.
Download:
http://www67.zippyshare.com/v/94753150/file.html

[bugmen0t]

Can confirm madVR is writing settings to the registry correctly now.
The rendering times increased a lot with v0.86.1 for me. Is this intended, better quality etc?

[cyberbeing]

Can you two please retest with the next build? I've added some logging to find out why FRC gets activated in your case. I wasn't able to reproduce the problem here. The log should help to get to the bottom of this.

Debug Log for 23.976fps @ 95.904Hz with FRC Option 1 (http://www.mediafire.com/?mvxay69j01ros4a)

Same issue occurs on both Windows 7 & Windows 8.

[Edit: Below are a few more with 119.88Hz for good measure]

madVR TestPatternSource 23, 24, 59, 60 @ 119.88Hz (http://www.mediafire.com/?22s31o6gdg9idsn)

Deinterlacing to 59.94fps @ 119.88Hz (http://www.mediafire.com/?bl8h7g354rw41gj)

IVTC starting with 2:2 (29.97fps) and going to 3:2 (23.976fps) near the end @ 119.88Hz (http://www.mediafire.com/?aul3umwuj5eoz9y)

[JarrettH]

Can confirm madVR is writing settings to the registry correctly now.
The rendering times increased a lot with v0.86.1 for me. Is this intended, better quality etc?

Noticed this too. About 8-10 ms increase on an Intel HD 2000 (not my main computer)

[dansrfe]

I'm sorry for the OT question madshi. :o

Thanks for the fix regarding the exclusive mode freezes in v0.86.1!

[glc650]

Hello,

I've seen a few recommendations now to use ReClock with FRC.

So what settings are needed to make ReClock compatible with FRC? Just slave the reference clock to audio and lock the speed at original?

Thanks,

->g.

[bugmen0t]

@glc650
ReClock is fully compatible with FRC.
The settings you suggest will turn off ReClock's audio clock corrections. Why would you want that? (The only benefit then over other audio renderers would be having WASAPI.)

[Qaq]

With 0.86.0 I'm still have a blank screen with DXVA (decoding and image scaling) after changing from window to FSE modes. The workaround is: start playback - pause (fast) - switching to FSE - unpause.
Windows7, ATI 7750, CCC 12.8.

[madshi]

1. How do I fix the BTB (grey desktop) problem that the Intel intergrated Graphics 2000 has?

2. How can I make a 23,976Hz custom profile? The default 23Hz profile is 23,972 and I want to aim for 23,976XXX. When I choose Custom Resolutions I can only fill in round number and no numbers like 23,976, only 23/24/25 etc.
I don't know.

Also, could you take a look at this little fellow post (http://haruhichan.com/forum/showthread.php?7545-KCP-Kawaii-Codec-Pack&p=12834&viewfull=1#post12834). He seems to be having problems with exclusive mode off (windowed I believe) and when you see the youtube video he posted, it kinda reminds me of tearing but I'm not sure. Apparently he changed his monitor refresh rate to 24 hz to match the 24p video to eliminate judder but got that problem instead.
Yes, this is tearing. It can happen in windowed mode if you have Aero / Desktop Composition turned off. Sometimes it even happens with it turned on, in that case a reboot often helps. This is one of the advantages of FSE mode: There tearing should never ever occur, unless the hardware or drivers are broken.

Sample 1 still looks very unsmooth with FRC. I can't say for sure if maybe this has to be since I can't watch it in native 24Hz atm.
Download:
http://www22.zippyshare.com/v/7254850/file.html
Yes, it's not smooth, but it looks the same way with native 24Hz. Fast horizontal camera pans *CAN'T* look totally smooth with 24fps, unless you film them with a lot of blur. For a long time fast horizontal camera pans have been avoided in movie filming for this reason. But lately it seems film makers don't care as much about this, anymore.

FRC does not reduce judder that is in the source. It "only" simulates a display which can display 24Hz natively. If a proper 24Hz display shows judder with a specific 24fps movie, then so will madVR's FRC.

With sample 2, watch for the dust between the trees. It looks very nervous/flickering with FRC. Without not. imho clearly an unwanted side effect.
Download:
http://www67.zippyshare.com/v/94753150/file.html
Hmmmm... I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing here. Which "dust between the trees" do you mean? I'm not even sure where to look. Can you clarify?

The rendering times increased a lot with v0.86.1 for me. Is this intended, better quality etc?
Noticed this too. About 8-10 ms increase on an Intel HD 2000 (not my main computer)
The render times *measurements* increased because I had to add a forced flush for the FRC rendering steps to make the occasional artifacts go away. But the *actual* rendering times shouldn't have increased much. Or do you get stuttering / dropped frames now which you didn't get before?

Debug Log for 23.976fps @ 95.904Hz with FRC Option 1 (http://www.mediafire.com/?mvxay69j01ros4a)

Same issue occurs on both Windows 7 & Windows 8.

[Edit: Below are a few more with 119.88Hz for good measure]

madVR TestPatternSource 23, 24, 59, 60 @ 119.88Hz (http://www.mediafire.com/?22s31o6gdg9idsn)

Deinterlacing to 59.94fps @ 119.88Hz (http://www.mediafire.com/?bl8h7g354rw41gj)

IVTC starting with 2:2 (29.97fps) and going to 3:2 (23.976fps) near the end @ 119.88Hz (http://www.mediafire.com/?aul3umwuj5eoz9y)
Thanks. I can confirm that all of these logs should have resulted in FRC being turned off. I've found a very simple and stupid bug which caused this problem.

With 0.86.0 I'm still have a blank screen with DXVA (decoding and image scaling) after changing from window to FSE modes. The workaround is: start playback - pause (fast) - switching to FSE - unpause.
Windows7, ATI 7750, CCC 12.8.
I don't see this bug in the madVR bug tracker. Do you? ;)

[bugmen0t]

Or do you get stuttering / dropped frames now which you didn't get before?
Need to do more testing first.

With your general FRC approach the blended frames are generated at irregular points in time, right? Wouldn't it be beneficial to have a fixed pattern like e.g. repetition, blend, repetition, blend, ... at least when using ReClock?

[aufkrawall]

Yes, it's not smooth, but it looks the same way with native 24Hz. Fast horizontal camera pans *CAN'T* look totally smooth with 24fps, unless you film them with a lot of blur. For a long time fast horizontal camera pans have been avoided in movie filming for this reason. But lately it seems film makers don't care as much about this, anymore.

FRC does not reduce judder that is in the source. It "only" simulates a display which can display 24Hz natively. If a proper 24Hz display shows judder with a specific 24fps movie, then so will madVR's FRC.

Ok, thanks for explaining.


Hmmmm... I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing here. Which "dust between the trees" do you mean? I'm not even sure where to look. Can you clarify?

Maybe I was a little oversensitive. Now in a non darkened room I don't really notice it anymore. I guess it's again a "broken source", maybe the effect just naturally increases a little with FRC.

I noticed that display mode changer still changes to 59.94Hz for 23.976fps videos even though FRC is set to be always enabled.
Wouldn't it make sense to change its logic that it doesn't change resolution with FRC?

Uhm, what about FRC for e.g. 60fps@60Hz? Is there much blur to be expected? :o
Otherwise it'd like to get rid of Reclock.
Edit: Ah, found the answer in your first post of 0.86.

Btw: I've tested a 3 minutes 60fps video, no frame drops. :)

[TheElix]

To my best knowledge madVR is now the only way to playback Blu-Ray/DVD movies without 3:2 pulldown judder on displays which don't support 23.976Hz playback properly. I don't think any hardware Blu-Ray player can do that, or even any of the expensive video processors. (Correct me if I'm wrong).You, sir, are a wizard and a messiah of HTPC world!

[squall12]

Hi madshi,

If i am using 23hz refresh rate at my samsung lcd tv with the tv smooth motion function mean i dont get any advantage using the madvr frc?

Thanks

[Niyawa]

Yes, this is tearing. It can happen in windowed mode if you have Aero / Desktop Composition turned off. Sometimes it even happens with it turned on, in that case a reboot often helps. This is one of the advantages of FSE mode: There tearing should never ever occur, unless the hardware or drivers are broken.
I see, thanks. But if rebooting doesn't solve the problem (without FSE) isn't there anything more we could do? Just in case.

[druneau]

Is it possible to run the SmoothMotion madTestPatternSource at a user specified fps?

I tried just renaming one to SmoothMotion120.ytp as a test and it defaulted to 23p.

The other thing I was wondering, I ran 24p side by side with 60p in another player because I wanted to explain to someone the difference between having more source images vs smoothness etc...

But to my surprise the bars were not scrolling at the same speed. I'm guessing this was intentional/side effect of the implementation. It's probably not an easy switch, especially if you would have to generate different source material. But I might be helpful to have the different SmoothMotion test patterns moving at the same overall speed?

And thank you for such a great piece of software. I'm slowly converting people around me to madVR. The FRC option will make it even easier for people to have smooth playback with minimal effort.

[oddball]

Madshi is xy-vsfilter work still in progress for high def subs? Also is some form of motion compensation on the cards for the future? I'd like to see motion compensation with some form of control element to it (My TV's is one setting only and it's horrid).

[shimaflarex]

I don't know.
The render times *measurements* increased because I had to add a forced flush for the FRC rendering steps to make the occasional artifacts go away. But the *actual* rendering times shouldn't have increased much. Or do you get stuttering / dropped frames now which you didn't get before?


I do get more dropped frames with 0.86.1, smooth motion turned on, new exclusive mode.

Using "use a separate device for presentation", my render queue seems to get stuck on 0-3/8, and I get dropped frames all the time. If I pause the video, it goes to 0-8 / 8, but it quickly drops to 0-3 / 8 on playback.

Now, without "use a separate device for presentation", something very weird happens. The render queue stays on 5-6/8 on playback, but if I pause the video, click on Edit Settings on madVR preferences, click Ok without changing anything, and unpause the video...the render queue gets stuck on 0-3 / 8. If I just open the madVR preferences dialog and close it without clicking on Edit Settings, I don't have this issue.

Edit: Hm, the render queue does seem to get stuck on 0-3 after a while, even if I don't open the Edit Settings dialog. Opening it is however a sure way to trigger this.

On madVR 0.86, I don't have this issues, just out of order frames with "use a separate device for presentation" turned on and the present queue randomly going to zero when it is off.

Edit 2: Setting my flush settings to Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't and disabling "use separated device for presentation" seems to solve my issue on 0.86.1.

[joe42]

I do get more dropped frames with 0.86.1, smooth motion turned on, new exclusive mode.


I noticed that with 0.86.1 I get continuous dropped frames on the SmoothMotion50 test file (60Hz monitor), but no dropped frames on the other SmoothMotion files.

With 0.86.0 I did not get any dropped frames, not even with the 50Hz test file.

So something changed for the worse with 0.86.1

[Q-the-STORM]

Hi madshi,

If i am using 23hz refresh rate at my samsung lcd tv with the tv smooth motion function mean i dont get any advantage using the madvr frc?

Thanks

the point of FRC is to remove judder... 23.976fps content on 23.976Hz refresh rate doesn't have judder... so FRC will essentially do nothing....

btw. thanks madshi... I usually use reclock to clock to 24fps and then set my VT50 to 24Hz... but the VT50 sometimes has a bit of flicker at 24Hz and I always hated the few seconds the panel needed to change the refesh rate... especially if I just want to open a video to check something... It got really annoying... now I simply leave it at 60Hz and turn on FRC...

[glc650]

@glc650
ReClock is fully compatible with FRC.
The settings you suggest will turn off ReClock's audio clock corrections. Why would you want that? (The only benefit then over other audio renderers would be having WASAPI.)I thought that's the desired setup when using FRC? Turn off ReClock's manipulation of the audio and just use ReClock for its audio clock? So what settings do I need then?

[oddball]

Been testing a few things. 23.976fps with smooth motion forced on at 24Hz causes a ghosting effect kind of like interlacing. 23.976fps at 60Hz causes flickering. You can especially notice it on scrolling end credits. Looks like it's no good for me and I may as well stick with 24Hz smooth motion off for now.

[dansrfe]

If I rapidly seek through the file with the right arrow button then madVR still freezes in exclusive mode but when it goes back to windowed mode it plays like normal. At that point if I try to fullscreen it back to exclusive mode I get a black screen and have to restart the file in order to use exclusive mode. This is with v0.86.1.

[iSunrise]

If I rapidly seek through the file with the right arrow button then madVR still freezes in exclusive mode but when it goes back to windowed mode it plays like normal. At that point if I try to fullscreen it back to exclusive mode I get a black screen and have to restart the file in order to use exclusive mode. This is with v0.86.1.
Yes, I can confirm that. I was only able to trigger it with FRC on though, FRC off still seems to behave like 0.85.8. Sometimes if it happens, it looks like an endless loop of 2 frames that are shown at the same time (endless flickering).

[kasper93]

I need to ask about one thing.
If I use reclock should I check "slave reference clock to audio"? Or leave it unchecked. For best compatibility with madVR.

[Qaq]

I usually use reclock to clock to 24fps and then set my VT50 to 24Hz... but the VT50 sometimes has a bit of flicker at 24Hz...
AFAIK, VT50 supports 96Hz.

[ikarad]

madVR v0.86.0 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* added smooth motion frame rate conversion algorithm
* added settings page for smooth motion frc configuration
* added "trade quality for performance" option for smooth motion frc
* added test patterns to madTestPatternSource to test smooth motion frc
* fixed: RGB input with odd width/height is now accepted untouched
* fixed: IVideoWindow::put_Owner() failed when pins were not connected yet
* fixed: madHcCtrl.exe autostart registry entry was incorrect / not working
* fixed: occasional crash when using DXVA scaling with high-bitdepth content
* fixed: green line at the left image border when using DXVA scaling
* file "settings.bin" is not written into win7/8 "VirtualStore", anymore
* slightly improved multi monitor behaviour (when using DXVA or MPC-BE)
* filter enumeration timer is now only active during DVD playback
* extended logging for fullscreen exclusive presentation queue
* internal software video decoders are now disabled by default (again)
Introducing the new "smooth motion" frame rate changer (FRC) with the following main features / benefits:

(1) Can convert any source frame rate to any display refresh rate, while maintaining smooth motion.
(2) Endless playback without frame drops/repeats (if your PC is fast enough) without needing Reclock.

There are disadvantages, too, of course:

(1) Slightly higher GPU usage (not too much) with default settings.
(2) Some sharpness loss (almost invisible with 23-25fps -> 60Hz conversion).

23-25fps -> 60Hz: minimal sharpness loss, nearly invisible
24fps -> 24Hz: visible sharpness loss
60fps -> 24Hz: very noticeable sharpness loss

Basically the higher the refresh rate, the better. And the lower the source framerate, the better.

There's a new version of the madTestPatternSource filter (http://madshi.net/madTestPatternSource.zip) available. It's now a separate download because it increased in file size quite a lot, due to the new test patterns for smooth motion.

Technically the FRC algorithm simulates a display with infinite refresh rate. Which means that every video frame is displayed exactly when the timestamps ask for it. Consequently the motion smoothness depends on proper timestamps. If the timestamps (or audio clock) contain jitter, the playback will contain jitter, too. So even if Reclock might not be needed to avoid frame drops/repeats, anymore, when using madVR's new FRC algorithm, you might still want to use Reclock, because it provides a stable and reliable audio clock with very low jitter, and it supports WSAPI exclusive mode, too. You can however slave Reclock to the audio hardware clock, if you want. Having Reclock fully enabled with audio resampling is still possible, though, it shouldn't harm madVR's FRC algorithm.

To my best knowledge madVR is now the only way to playback Blu-Ray/DVD movies without 3:2 pulldown judder on displays which don't support 23.976Hz playback properly. I don't think any hardware Blu-Ray player can do that, or even any of the expensive video processors. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

One last hint: There's a new "trade quality for performance" option in the madVR settings which affects the quality of the FRC frame blending. By default frame blending is done in gamma corrected light, which is fast, but not mathematically correct. If your GPU is fast enough, it's highly recommended that you disable the "trade quality" option for highest image quality. There are no negative side effects to blending frames in linear light - except for higher GPU usage, of course.

P.S: Just to avoid confusion: madVR's smooth motion FRC does *NOT* modify audio in any way. Playback speed is not affected at all. The only thing that changes is that motion looks much smoother, if the display refresh rate isn't an even multiple of the source framerate.
Thanks.

1) Have I need "smooth motion" frame rate changer (FRC) if I have 23.976fps movie with a 120hz display monitor?

What are the best options in smooth motion?

2) If I have reclock, is it still necessary with smooth motion to avoid frame drops/repeats?

3) what is the best option with 120hz and 23.976fps movie?
............. a) only if there would be motion judder without it
........... b) or if the display ..... the movie frame rate
.......... c) always


4) in trade quality for performance, I have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" turn on by default, Must I turn off or not? (I have 570)

5) If I use 3:2 inverse telecine filter like decomb, smooth motion is it compatible or not?

6) If I turn on smooth motion, in windows mode I have 48fps instead of 24 fps in movie (using fraps), is it normal? Smooth motion would double framerate? Why?

edit: I try and with movie, I have some glitch with smooth motion option.

[rahzel]

AFAIK, VT50 supports 96Hz.
It does. But I think he means that he switched his HTPC to 24Hz and had his VT50 set to 96Hz, but now he just uses 60Hz with FRC on. Even though my ST50 doesn't have a 96Hz option, it does accept 24p... I also used to switch to 24Hz, but now I just leave it at 60Hz with FRC on.
Been testing a few things. 23.976fps with smooth motion forced on at 24Hz causes a ghosting effect kind of like interlacing. 23.976fps at 60Hz causes flickering. You can especially notice it on scrolling end credits. Looks like it's no good for me and I may as well stick with 24Hz smooth motion off for now.
Outputting 24Hz with FRC on isn't the best setup for film... it's better to leave it at 60Hz. If your set can properly handle 24p (96Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz etc.,) it may be better to output 24Hz without FRC on. Outputting 60Hz from your PC and playing film with FRC on shouldn't cause any flickering vs having it off.