madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[70MM]

I was wondering if most use artifact removal?
At what strengths does it seem to soften the image?

[Asmodian]

I would say it starts to soften noticeably around 3, I only turn it on for sources that need it.

[ryrynz]

Does anyone know if this vapoursynth feature is still in the works?

I expect this feature to make it in before MadVR 1.0 lands but it's not a focus right now.

[jaytrinitron]

I expect this feature to make it in before MadVR 1.0 lands but it's not a focus right now.

Good to know. Just because I'm unaware, is there any rough timetable around the release of MadVR 1.0?

[Asmodian]

Nope. :)

[nevcairiel]

Is there a way to force decimation of progressive 59.94 fps video? When I apply film mode on this kind of videos, madVR always detect it as cadence 2:2, and no decimation on it.

You can't really do IVTC decimation if its actually 60fps progressive, and not telecined. Its a specific algorithm to remove duplicate frames from the telecining process, not a generic "make half the frames go away" kind of thing (why you would ever want that anyway?).

If its 59.94 fps which resulted from a Telecining operation from either 23.976 (ie. 3:2) or 29.97 (ie. 2:2), then it should be able to recover that as well.

[el Filou]

"(why you would ever want that anyway?)"
I think US TV channels that broadcast in 720p60 is/was a use case.
(I'm not from the USA so I don't know if 720p HDTV is still commonly used)

[huhn]

it is used all over the world.

and it will not work if the source is true 60 fps.

[el Filou]

I was rather thinking of 24p-in-60p material, I assumed that's what Anima123 was asking.
Like, what happens if a 720p60 TV station wants to show a 24p TV series or movie?

[huhn]

if it is was created using a 3:2(6:4) cadence and not blending madVR "IVTC" can fix this too.

[cork_OS]

Good to know. Just because I'm unaware, is there any rough timetable around the release of MadVR 1.0?
In this thread madVR 1.0 is a meme like Second Coming.

Just now madshi is interested in improving HDR->SDR mapping, which development go on at another forum.

[jaytrinitron]

In this thread madVR 1.0 is a meme like Second Coming.

Just now madshi is interested in improving HDR->SDR mapping, which development go on at another forum.

Figures. Well, he keeps improving his unique software and adding new features all the time all for free, so I can't complain. :)

[HelmedHorror]

Is HDR content (i.e., 4k UHD 10-bit Blu-ray) supposed to look much darker than SDR on an 8-bit monitor, or are my madVR settings causing this problem? As a demonstration:

here's (https://i.imgur.com/RdSJr1O.jpg) a screenshot of the SDR Blu-ray version, and
here's (https://i.imgur.com/rekgb3d.jpg) a screenshot of the 4K UDH Blu-ray.


This is not just one movie, though. Every 4K UHD Blu-ray movie that I've compared with its ordinary 1080p Blu-ray version has had this darkness problem.

I have an 8-bit monitor with 300 max cd/m^2 ("nits").

I use madVR with mpc-hc and my madVR's HDR settings can be seen here. (https://i.imgur.com/2jHfbfj.png)

My OSD information is here. (https://i.imgur.com/RBrRkyI.png)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated :)

Thanks!

[ryrynz]

I've noticed the same thing.. Even changing the nits to 100 doesn't help enough.. I'm staying away from HDR as a result.. Normal blurays are probably better overall..

[AngelGraves13]

I've noticed the same thing.. Even changing the nits to 100 doesn't help enough.. I'm staying away from HDR as a result.. Normal blurays are probably better overall..

There's a lot of work being done on the HDR to SDR tone-mapping in another forum. It's almost ready and will likely be released here soon, but I can say that it looks much better now than the current official release.

Overall, HDR to SDR will always look a bit darker though.

[kostik]

There's a lot of work being done on the HDR to SDR tone-mapping in another forum. It's almost ready and will likely be released here soon, but I can say that it looks much better now than the current official release.

Overall, HDR to SDR will always look a bit darker though.
What another forum?

[ryrynz]

I'm aware, I'm using one of those test builds. @kostik Avsforum. A new release build can't be too far off now.

[svengun]

HI, got a quick question, since the last few Nvidia drivers , I've lost the bit setting option in the Nvidia panel (8 / 12 bits)

Currently using : GeForce Game Ready Driver 398.82 WHQL

Is this correct ? having not bit choice anymore ?

Thanks for any reply ;-)

[Warner306]

Is HDR content (i.e., 4k UHD 10-bit Blu-ray) supposed to look much darker than SDR on an 8-bit monitor, or are my madVR settings causing this problem?

Thanks!

This is normal because a high-contrast image is being shown at a low brightness. Most HDR content is around 1,000 nits at the brightest pixel vs. 100 nits for SDR. In order to display this correctly, some range compression is required to provide proper contrast between dark and bright image detail. Otherwise, detail would be clipped and the image would be flat. PQ HDR is also an absolute brightness standard without a flexible gamma curve like SDR. So it is difficult to brighten it even when converted to SDR without making it inaccurate. For example, you can't watch a 100 nit source at 300 nits like SDR content.

There are different approaches to tone mapping. BT.2390 happens to be on the harsh side and compresses most of the content range to a lower nits. In the future, more dynamic tone mapping may be available or different tone mapping curves. This should make the image a little brighter. Personally, I've adapted to the darker image and find that the HDR version can have detail that isn't possible in SDR because the brightest information is clipped.

Try using a lower target nits and/or brightening your display when watching HDR content. Changing the gamma curve in calibration can also help sometimes. The target nits value is the PQ container and not the brightness of your SDR display. The conversion from PQ to gamma does not translate directly and will vary by display depending on its brightness and gamma curve. Two displays with the same relative brightness can require different target nits.

[Warner306]

HI, got a quick question, since the last few Nvidia drivers , I've lost the bit setting option in the Nvidia panel (8 / 12 bits)

Currently using : GeForce Game Ready Driver 398.82 WHQL

Is this correct ? having not bit choice anymore ?

Thanks for any reply ;-)

You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.

[svengun]

You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.

hhmm I do have the 16-.... limited range changed to full (0-255) , by choosing player settings

Maybe I overlooked another option (switching to Nvidia colors)

I tried DDU a few times , but when logging into Safe Boot (option 4) I get a Stack Buffer Overflow and can't log in to Win ;-(

I'm on the Win Insiders program , Skip-ahead ring

Many thanks for your suggestion will try it when I get home , if not I'll do a fresh install when the Win Insider ROM's are available again (Redstone 5)

[oldpainlesskodi]

@ Warner360,

Not sure if it has been covered before, but is there a calculation for target nits? My Samsung KS8000 has a claimed nits of 1,000 in HDR mode, but using the new HDR to SDR algo, anything over a target nits of 125 makes the image too dark.

[Warner306]

@ Warner360,

Not sure if it has been covered before, but is there a calculation for target nits? My Samsung KS8000 has a claimed nits of 1,000 in HDR mode, but using the new HDR to SDR algo, anything over a target nits of 125 makes the image too dark.

That makes no sense. I've never heard of a display that uses a target nits that low, let alone an actual HDR display.

There is no current way to calculate this. It may help to label this setting "target HDR nits" or "target PQ nits" because it is unrelated to the brightness of your display. It is a measure of how much compression is applied to the original curve in absolute nits, not relative nits.

I have two displays that are around 150 nits. One uses a setting of 350-400 nits, the other 450-500 nits with the same 2.40 gamma curve to achieve similar relative brightness. Your result is nonsense.

If you have an HDR display that bright, you wouldn't benefit much from HDR -> SDR, anyways. Passthrough would be the way to go.

[oldpainlesskodi]

That makes no sense. I've never heard of a display that uses a target nits that low, let alone an actual HDR display.

? Like I said anything higher than 125 for target peak nits makes the image too dark (obviously in SDR mode), and I'm fully aware what "target HDR nits" does.

Even though I have a HDR display at 1,000 nits, I am comparing the new HDR to SDR algo tone mapping, VS HDR Pass through.

Oddly enough, the SDR peak brightness of the set is:

SDR Real Scene Peak Brightness
: 489 cd/m2
SDR Peak 2% Window
: 1116 cd/m2
SDR Peak 10% Window
: 1332 cd/m2
SDR Peak 25% Window
: 723 cd/m2
SDR Peak 50% Window
: 528 cd/m2
SDR Peak 100% Window
: 532 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 2% Window
: 296 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 10% Window
: 644 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 25% Window
: 522 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 50% Window
: 538 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 100% Window
: 530 cd/m2


But thanks for your response.

K

[nevcairiel]

If you convert to SDR and then display on a HDR display and want a HDR-like representation, you would have to manually massively increase the brightness, if the display even lets you reach HDR-levels, because HDR peak brightness is not designed for that in many cases. But that would make normal SDR content quite overly bright, so you would have to compensate for that as well.

Basically, if your display is properly calibrated for SDR content, then converting HDR to SDR should probably use a low nit value, because thats what your TV is setup for. You would have to re-calibrate the TV if you want to target a higher peak brightness in SDR mode. And of course remember to use a 3DLUT for example to restore SDR to its normal brightness.

Its a bit of an annoying combination to setup, and if your TV can display HDR properly, using pass-through would be better.

[Warner306]

Using that combination with an HDR display is definitely problematic. HDR presentation at SDR brightness is very difficult to calibrate and the gamma curve makes it even more difficult. Using a low peak nits stacks values too close together and leads to a very flat image appearance and a lack of detail, as well as problems with color. Achieving an HDR presentation at SDR brightness means using a slightly higher peak nits and living with a low value for reference white (100 nits). Most of the original contrast will still be there, but the image will be darker. Not all movies are terribly dark and some match the Blu-ray reasonably well and come with more refined detail, even when downscaled. It depends on the metadata.

[oldpainlesskodi]

@ Nevcairiel.

Yes, all very true, but as you alluded to, it depends on the set and calibration.

Besides projector owners, and owners of SDR displays, there are people with HDR displays that will possibly choose the new HDR to SDR algo, because often the TV manufacturers HDR tone mapping algos are extremely poor.

At 125 target nits, and I get more (perceived?) contrast, more pleasing (accurate?) tone mapping and detail than straight HDR passthrough.

An example of this is the HDR version of Arrival at 18.02. In HDR mode, there is a loss of contrast and detail in the backround of the helicopter cabin on my TV, but not with the HDR to SDR algo set at 125 nits.

As always, it's down to the combination in setup and preferences.

K

[svengun]

You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.

Yup, you we're correct, plus

I feel stupid about this, I wasn't connected to my 4K HDR OLED , but to my 1080P monitor (DVI connected) :-(

Many, many thanks !

[huhn]

If you convert to SDR and then display on a HDR display and want a HDR-like representation, you would have to manually massively increase the brightness, if the display even lets you reach HDR-levels, because HDR peak brightness is not designed for that in many cases. But that would make normal SDR content quite overly bright, so you would have to compensate for that as well.

Basically, if your display is properly calibrated for SDR content, then converting HDR to SDR should probably use a low nit value, because thats what your TV is setup for. You would have to re-calibrate the TV if you want to target a higher peak brightness in SDR mode. And of course remember to use a 3DLUT for example to restore SDR to its normal brightness.

Its a bit of an annoying combination to setup, and if your TV can display HDR properly, using pass-through would be better.

so i guess the idea of using 2 different channels and cloning is not a well spread setup yet. the annoying would change to a remote click and maybe a profile for 3d LUTs

[KoKlusz]

@oldpainlesskodi

I have UE equivalent of KS8000, and using latest test builds madVR tonemapping gives me much better results than passtrough. Set the TV in either "Film" or "Game" mode, set the backlight to 20 and smart LED to High, then set peak target nits in madVR to 1000 if you want HDR, or backlight to 4 and target nits to 480 if you want SDR-like image.

[oldpainlesskodi]

@ KoKlusz.

Odd, for whatever reason, at 1000 target, using your suggested settings, its way too dark. Are you on the latest firmware?

[KoKlusz]

Yes.

Do you have dynamic contrast disabled? Are you sure that you using correct black levels? Did you enabled UHD color? What HDMI input label are you using?

Does madVR tonemapping looks darker with specific movie/video, or across the board?

[oldpainlesskodi]

Yes, yes, yes and PC. And it's across the board at 1000 nits for HDR to SDR.

Must just be my panel. Odd that its fine in HDR mode. At 125 nits, its about the same brightness as HDR passthrough, but with better tone mapping.

[mclingo]

latest AMD driver looks pretty good to me, certainly on my machine the HDR auto toggle in MADVR is fixed and files are loading in half the time as before on 18.2.2. There were later versions where HDR toggle worked but they were unstable in windows for me (yet to see if this is stable), 18.3.4 was probably the last working HDR toggle driver I could find before this one.

Reds are still blown to hell with 23,976 SDR material though so i still have to leave calibration on in MADVR and calibrate to BT2020 to get a natural picture, suspect there is something in the drivers that AMD havent spotted yet which is pushing the wrong colour space to SDR 24,976 material, HDR is ok, could be they are treating all 23,976 material as HDR if a HDR output device is detected in the stream or something like that.

AMD tell me they are still looking into it...


EDIT - in addition to this, it was mentioned a few pages back that FSE is pretty much on its way out but some people could get 3D to work without it, I certainly cant, it was also mentioned I think some people needed that for HDR, not on mine, works fine. I also tried windowed mode, still no 3D, defo need FSE for 3D on AMD cards i'm sure unless someone know otherwise?

[HelmedHorror]

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but how do you get madvr to take a screenshot? I notice there's a screenshot settings page, but no information on how to actually take one. It's not in the keyboard shortcut section either...

[huhn]

by using the screeshoot function of a player.

[HelmedHorror]

by using the screeshoot function of a player.

Is there any way to get it in png quality? Given the sometimes tiny visual trying to be compared, it makes little sense to me to be comparing compressed images.

[huhn]

if the player supports it yes and mpc-hc does.

[Msarc]

Are there any other solutions for Windows 10 1803 update issues, apart from disabling "Focus Assist"?
Tried both DX9 and DX11 rendering/decoding, updated AMD drivers from 18.4.1 to 18.8.1, switched settings in MadVR - none of it made a difference.

So far, FSE mode is the only way I can get MadVR to work properly after 1803 update, and FSE is kind of a PITA to use.

I added some info to this issue on the bug tracker, but it looks like this is beyond Madshi's control. Thanks, Microsoft.

[huhn]

can you make a screen of the OSD?

[mclingo]

Are there any other solutions for Windows 10 1803 update issues,........t.

I've delayed the move to 1803 for fear of issues, can you list exactly what issues you have?

[Msarc]

can you make a screen of the OSD?
This is what I get after running for 15-20 seconds in windowed or fullscreen windowed:

https://i.imgur.com/9tQH2Sy.jpg

In fullscreen exclusive, there are 0 drops/repeats and the queues are full. Just as I had in windowed mode before Windows v1803 update.


I've delayed the move to 1803 for fear of issues, can you list exactly what issues you have?
Massive frame drops/repeats when not running in fullscreen exclusive mode. Like something is eating up performance, even though CPU/GPU are only about 35%/50% loaded.
There's an issue open on the bug tracker (http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=568) with more details and reports from other users.

[Schwartz]

Found an issue yesterday thanks to involuntary internet problems.

When madVR can't connect to the internet (ethernet working, internet offline), it takes several seconds longer to start up and also produces ~6 seconds of black before the video shows properly.

Please put an option somewhere to turn off this connection stuff?

[mclingo]

This is what I get after running for 15-20 seconds in windowed or fullscreen windowed:.....//bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=568]an issue open on the bug tracker[/url] with more details and reports from other users.

Thanks, what are your GFX specs, why are you using 60hz playback?

[huhn]

he is using 60 hz because the file is 60 hz.

it doesn't enter windowed fullscreen and you have a slight composition mismatch is this a custom resolution for a 60 hz monitor?

can you please try it again with madVR retested to defaults settings you can backup your setting.bin before that.

[Msarc]

Thanks, what are your GFX specs, why are you using 60hz playback?
AMD R9 290
It's just a 60fps video. But if you're wondering if it might be the cause, it isn't. It's the same video I was watching before 1803 without problems. I've also been watching 24fps/30fps videos interpolated to 60fps with BlueskyFRC for the past couple of years and all are suddenly having same issue after 1803 update.


it doesn't enter windowed fullscreen and you have a slight composition mismatch is this a custom resolution for a 60 hz monitor?

can you please try it again with madVR retested to defaults settings you can backup your setting.bin before that.
I simply made the screenshot with the window maximized, there's no difference with it being fullscreen (https://i.imgur.com/9fL6SRC.jpg).
It's not a custom resolution, it's the native 1920x1200 for my Dell U2412M. Same one I've been using for the last 7-8 years.

I had already tried default MadVR settings. There are no drops/repeats with them, but that's only because there's little processing done by default. As soon as I add things back one at a time (from scratch, not by replacing settings.bin), the issue gradually comes back as well. There isn't one specific setting that causes it - as far as I can tell, all that matters is how much each one impacts performance, because 1803 appears to only allow MadVR to use roughly half of the system's normal performance.

[huhn]

can you change the refreshrate to true 60 hz for a test please? it is currently running at 59p.

you changed the queue setings for what ever reason. and seeing a screen with default setting even trhough it works can still help.

does this still happens with windows 7 overlay?

[QBhd]

He's correct, 1803 made me reduce ALL my profile settings. I bet only people who pushed their GPU very close to the edge noticed this. If your settings were not very demanding, I bet you wouldn't even notice the switch. I also bet if a person in this scenario had paid attention to their GPU usage before and after they would have seen a huge spike in usage... I have thrown every trick and tweak, including the kitchen sink at this issue to no avail.

Starting to wonder if MS added an ultra hidden crypto miner in the OS to make a few bucks!! LOL :P

Seriously starting to wonder if this was also the cause of my R9 270X to fail (black screen when the GPU goes into a standard resolution, low-def such as safe mode still works)… At least my ancient HD 5770 still works so I can wait for Vega prices to fall or Navi to be released (Polaris sucks for madVR and is therefore not an option)

QB

[huhn]

i don't see 6 ms as pushing it to the limited.

[Msarc]

can you change the refreshrate to true 60 hz for a test please? it is currently running at 59p.
I'm not sure I can, it's the only one available (https://i.imgur.com/sTTicQl.gif).

you changed the queue setings for what ever reason. and seeing a screen with default setting even trhough it works can still help.
Alright, here's after default reset (https://i.imgur.com/HY6KUei.jpg). Don't mind those few drops/repeats shown, they only happened when opening the file and switching to fullscreen, they don't happen during playback.

does this still happens with windows 7 overlay?
Yes, turning it on/off makes no difference.

i don't see 6 ms as pushing it to the limited.
That's the thing. It shouldn't even be 6 ms. Before 1803 and now in FSE, this file plays at around 10-11 ms, which is when everything works right with no drops.
It's like 1803 no longer allows MadVR to use the system at full power.