madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Mistery 73]

if you use two 1070 GTX graphics cards in SLI get excellent results with madVR?

[Betroz]

if you use two 1070 GTX graphics cards in SLI get excellent results with madVR?

No, MadVr do not support SLI.

[Backflash]

if you use two 1070 GTX graphics cards in SLI get excellent results with madVR?

no, for one it doesn't support it
how fast do you want it to be? 1070 already crashes most ridiculous madvr settings

[huhn]

With reclock, I have frame repeated about all nearly 5 min.
I can have the same thing or even better (6.3 min for frame repeated) if I create custom resolution with 119.88hz (exact multiple of 23.976).

With 119.88 or 120hz or reclock, I have never seen the difference. Have you a recording to see the difference?
of cause a custom resolution or reclock can fix this issue. obviously it can fix this issue.

a custom resolution is complicated to use.
reclock is resampling audio which isn't perfect.
smoothmotion is blending frame which isn't perfect but save at 120 hz and very easy to use. at least for people that read the smooth motion options...
It doesn't work. not at 120 or 144hz, it simply doesn't switch on itself unless you force it
it works only for very rare 30 fps on 144hz, it doesn't work on 120
i'm not even starting about 144 hz and that the most common refresh rate is 59p (TV broad cast) followed by 50p (broadcast) and they will judder at?

try option two in smoothmotion.

[Gagorian]

I need your advice I have a nvidia 1070 GTX video card do you think it's worth having a GTX 1080 to make better use madVR?

I use a GTX 1070 for MadVR on my HTPC for upscaling to a 65" 4k TV. I don't see that I'm limited by the GPU in any way regarding the settings for maximum quality as long as choices are kept reasonable (as in actually making a difference in quality instead of trying to max out everything).

I think the new settings dialogues are quite good and very closely correspond to the settings I would use anyway. They are much more friendly to new users. If possible, I think chroma upscaling should still be merged into the same settings menu since new users probably don't even know what the difference is. Then the settings UI would be streamlined with either simple Upscaling or Downscaling menus.

I think the problems some users are having with the new settings could be alleviated by making the use of profiles much easier with an UI. For example the workflow of adding a profile could be as such: "add new profile button" -> next up checkboxes with different content (SD, 720p23, 1080p23, 1080p60, custom etc) - select one - then enter your target monitor resolution. After that MadVR would show what scaling factor needs to be used and their respective scaling steps. For each step there would be a dropdown with selectable algos for chroma/luma (either similar auto selections for quality like now or user-selectable). If no profile is created for said content type, madVR would use the algos selected in the current menu.

Also, I agree with previous commenters that if you think a certain pre-selected algo does not produce close to the quality that your favourite choice does, why not grab a screenshot or two showing the difference on actual content? If the difference is so apparent that you can easily see it, then prove it and I'm quite sure the madshi will consider making changes :) The human mind really easily plays tricks on you so it's always best to actually confirm what you think you are seeing.

[rvs75]

I'm not saying I won't bring super-xbr back, but I need to be convinced that it's really useful/necessary.


With my old PC (I7 920, HD 7770, PCIe 2.0), super-xbr is less hungry than NNEDI and NGU even if I can use NGU low or med , ,depending original size of the video.

[Neo-XP]

Can you post a screenshot please? Maybe i'm testing on wrong SD content, just curious.



Please post comparisons, personally i'm simply curious what I can't see you can.

And you can actually use lanczos for upscaling luma/chroma but without doubling. But didn't it do the same job before?
ngu double->lanczos upscaling of doubled image if resolution was still too low pretty much negating ngu double?

https://s18.postimg.org/729ou61n9/0_91_1.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/729ou61n9/) https://s18.postimg.org/u54t72sid/0_91_3.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/u54t72sid/)

720p to UHD, can't use only image doubling + Lanczos3 AR anymore.

[Warlock]

Which setting should I use with an onboard Intel HD4600?

[Backflash]

reclock is resampling audio which isn't perfect.

i'm not even starting about 144 hz and that the most common refresh rate is 59p (TV broad cast) followed by 50p (broadcast) and they will judder at?

try option two in smoothmotion.

I didn't know reclock resamples audio, one more reason(besides x64) not to use it, MPCHC WASAPI support is great.

I can't tell with 24fps content if smooth motion does anything at all at 120/144hz even if I force it.



720p to UHD, can't use only image doubling + Lanczos3 AR anymore.

But 0.91.3 looks better. More detail. It's just too slow? I see your problem then, it was a better compromise before.

[huhn]

I didn't know reclock resamples audio, one more reason(besides x64) not to use it, MPCHC WASAPI support is great.

I can't tell with 24fps content if smooth motion does anything at all at 120/144hz even if I force it.


if you don't see the repeated frame every ~42 secs fine but it is still there.

and you said you don't see a difference with smooth motion so it is not doing anything bad for your eyes too. so you can use it to stop repeated/dropped frames from sync issues.

[ROKUGAN]

no, for one it doesn't support it
how fast do you want it to be? 1070 already crashes most ridiculous madvr settings

No it doesn´t. I have a Zotac 1080 AMP! Extreme OC @ 2100 Mhz with a i7 6700K @ 4.6 Ghz and a 4K TV and it´s still not enough to max NGU without dropping frames, as leo91531's excellent test has already proven:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1787840#post1787840

If I use SVP on top of that (which I love, because it´s miles better than smooth motion for my personal taste) then performance is much worse and you can´t go above NGU medium settings without dropping frames.

[Mistery 73]

No it doesn´t. I have a Zotac 1080 AMP! Extreme OC @ 2100 Mhz with a i7 6700K @ 4.6 Ghz and a 4K TV and it´s still not enough to max NGU without dropping frames, as leo91531's excellent test has already proven:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1787840#post1787840

If I use SVP on top of that (which I love, because it´s miles better than smooth motion for my personal taste) then performance is much worse and you can´t go above NGU medium settings without dropping frames.

What do you mean by SVP?

[ROKUGAN]

What do you mean by SVP?

SmoothVideo Project (SVP)

https://www.svp-team.com/wiki/Main_Page

To my taste, works much better than the interpolation settings in my TV (Auto Motion Plus = either insufficient or creates "soap opera" effect).
But it takes a toll in performance, specially paired with an also resource hungry madvr (which I love btw! :))

[Mistery 73]

the smooth motion of madVR keep it off?

[huhn]

no it doesn't keep SVP off and SVP and smooth motion quite different smoothmotion can't create soap opera effect and SVP want to created soap opera effect(they stated this on there page...). SVP also want to make the source more smooth than playback at the correct refresh rate. smooth motion can't be more smooth than playback at the correct refresh rate.

for example using SVP to double 23 hz to 47 hz and using smooth motion to present this at 60 hz isn't a bad idea and it avoids the problems from a 5/2 interpolations.

[ROKUGAN]

the smooth motion of madVR keep it off?

You can keep it on, but it´s unnecessary with SVP so I keep it off. Follow this guide if you want to try it out:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1385468/svp-smooth-video-project-discussion-thread

[ajp_anton]

No, 35ms vs 42ms is not perfectly smooth at all. It might be smooth with a game but not with a video. It seems to me you don't really understand the difference. With a game, if you have 10ms -> 10ms -> 10ms -> 40ms, then a car moving from the left side of the screen to the right side, will move a little -> little -> little -> lot. Because of that it's not a big problem if the exact frame intervals vary a bit. With video the situation is different. The position of the car is already defined by the recorded video. If you have 10ms -> 10ms -> 10ms -> 40ms, that would be a catastrophe for video, because the car moves the same amount in each frame. For video we need *perfect* frame intervals. And unless G-SYNC can deliver that, it's useless for video.Not advocating G-/Freesync, but I just want to say something here in its defense (or want to be corrected if I'm wrong). The game will pick a point in time to render its next frame, so in a sense the position of the car is "already defined" in the game as well as in the video. The difference is just that the game is flexible on what point in time it wants to render.
So a G-/Freesync game should be just as (un)smooth as G-/Freesynced video.

Also, things in the settings that still need to be clearer:
- "downscale quality" should also say what the algorithm actually is.
- "chroma quality", what is this and why is it active with NNEDI3 but not NGU?
- NNEDI3/NGU, "activate only if it's useful", what is being used to upscale when it's *not* useful?
- When scaling using DXVA, it should say that it also handles chroma (I'm assuming that it does).

[BluesFanUK]

I only tested this last night but I seemed to get better performance from NGU than NNEDI3 (On a 980Ti).

How is that possible over Pascal cards?

[zvans18]

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/192201 (i think the glitches can be ignored, they only started when i disabled overlay to take the screens)

well i love sharpness, but even for me NGU is too destructive to even clean low res animation compared to nnedi3

i'd much rather put on a bit of edge thinning (not in screenshot) and put up with a little softness than deal with the mess NGU makes at the moment

[ispano]

@madshi v0.91.3

Feedback: Overall, a well done improvement cleaning house. Really appreciate that you've kept NNEDI3 even though I have shifted to NGU as my default for all profiles. I think the simplification was done in good taste even though I usually detest the limiting of choices. Maybe a "full/expert" versus "simple/minimal" is in order to avoid needless frametime troubleshooting and satisfy those who would like more control/tuning? The downscale pulldown menu in the "image upscaling" section is the only thing I find redundant and should probably be removed. Was the "image downscaling" section ever an issue? Keep up the good work madshi.

[Mistery 73]

on the advice of Rokugan I'm trying SPV4 but still do not know if for watching movies at 24fps is best use JRiver + mad and I think also use SPV4 put in crisis my video card you wsecondo worth using SPV4?

[Sp00kyFox]

So a G-/Freesync game should be just as (un)smooth as G-/Freesynced video.
with a game the agenda is to display a frame right at the moment it is completely rendered which is the desired behavior realized with g/free-sync.

with video though we already have finished frames and know beforehand when a frame is supposed to be shown. and according to madshi that's the whole problem. there is no API allowing you to tell when to display a frame. from what I understand with games the display sync with gsync is triggered in hardware by the completion of a frame rendering. you can't apply that to videos.

[StinDaWg]

Does anyone else have issues with Windows occasionally locking up to a black screen after exiting/closing a video while in fullscreen exclusive mode? This happened here or there in the past with D3D9 FSE, but with D3D11 FSE it seems to be happening more often (couple times a week). About 5% of the time after closing the player the screen will go black, and I will have to do a hard reset with the power button and reboot the pc.

As a test if I quickly cycle between windowed and FSE over and over occasionally it does the same thing and just crashes to full black screen.

Windows 10 x64
HD 7770 with latest AMD drivers
MPC-HC as player

[leeperry]

Does anyone else have issues with Windows occasionally locking up to a black screen after exiting/closing a video while in fullscreen exclusive mode?
I thought it was due to PotPlayer that I sometimes got a black screen for a second or two when closing it but creating a "madVR\DontRenderAfterStop" empty folder fixed it as far as I can tell. Prolly unrelated to your problem, though as I always was able to at least open the taskmanager and kill PotP.

[StinDaWg]

I thought it was due to PotPlayer that I sometimes got a black screen for a second or two when closing it but creating a "madVR\DontRenderAfterStop" empty folder fixed it as far as I can tell.
I will give that a try for now.

[ROKUGAN]

on the advice of Rokugan I'm trying SPV4 but still do not know if for watching movies at 24fps is best use JRiver + mad and I think also use SPV4 put in crisis my video card you wsecondo worth using SPV4?

See here, example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MuFWCgDhgE

Wether you like the smoothness or not and if it's worth the extra GPU power needed (btw, I use the Intel integrated GPU on SVP and the Nvidia GTX 1080 for Madvr) is up to personal preference. In my case it's totally worth it, but many people doesn't like the smooth "videocam" effect and prefer the classic cinematic 24fps film cadence. I personally dislike the judder and find SVP to be more effective than the settings in my TV.

[marcobrd]

hi all, i'm a madvr user since many years and i really love it. i use it 90% for bluray upscale to 4k TV.
i like NGU very much and i can't think about using different algos from now on. i really want to thank you madshi for your incredible job.
i agree that the UI could be improved. IMHO there should be somewhere one "switch" option that allow users to switch to "basic" or "advanced" mode for the scaling section, maybe with a little hint of very few words which explains the difference in order to make it clear: the first one should be provided by default with presets for users who want to make it simple, the second one should be there in order to provide full control without limitations.

i noticed that d3d11 is about 2ms slower than d3d9 (win10 x64, geforce 1070, mpc-hc).

i have a question: with 91.1 if i set NGU on the same levels (say medium) for both chroma upscale and luma doubling, ctrl+j statistics only shows two NGU upscale processes (chroma, luma).
if i set NGU on different levels for chroma upscale and for luma doubling, ctrl+j statistics shows three NGU upscale processes (chroma, luma, chroma).
chroma doubling always disabled. 1080->2160 scaling.
could someone please explain why? is it better to have only one chroma upscale process in terms of optimal performance and PQ?
with 91.3 it looks like not possible to set the same NGU levels for chroma and luma.
thank you!

[cork_OS]

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/192201 (i think the glitches can be ignored, they only started when i disabled overlay to take the screens)

well i love sharpness, but even for me NGU is too destructive to even clean low res animation compared to nnedi3
Good sample of NGU oversharp. At my point, NGU is more sharp/dirty than NNEDI3 [on not perfectly clean sources] even when soften edges enabled.

[pirlouy]

@zvans18: You did not put the original image, so your comparison has less value. There are known case where NGU has limitations, but if you don't post original image, madshi can't analyse where his algorithm can be improved.

For those who make comparison, don't forget the original image.

Edit: Good job at not doing it ispano. xD

[ispano]

Setup for comparisons of NGU

I know madshi has implemented a warning for SuperRes but also note this should apply to the "artifact removal" section for "reduce ringing artifacts". You will get aliasing with NGU and dehalo enabled and even stronger aliasing when dark dehalo is checked. It is also stated that dark dehalo is not recommend for anime. Just want to make sure NGU gets a fair shake when people are comparing screenshots. And yes, I agree NNEDI3 does a great job image doubling and striking a good balance. NGU already has Dehalo aka "reduce ringing artifacts" built in I believe which is causing the conflict. Aliasing inherent in the source material will of course be more obvious with NGU. That's also a good reason why NNEDI3 is a good fallback for sources where you want to hide those specific artifacts. Below is my 480p DVD source fed to Vapoursynth w/ AA processing.

NGU Very High - Waifu2x - NGU w/ dehalo - NGU w/ dark dehalo (http://imgur.com/a/tANyv)

NGU Very High (http://i.imgur.com/nMqjGTR.png)

Waifu2x (http://i.imgur.com/RrUrqYF.png)

NGU Very High w/ Deringing (DeHalo) (http://i.imgur.com/xK3Xiun.png)

NGU Very High w/ Dark Dehalo checked. (http://i.imgur.com/6bdb1Tg.png)

[cork_OS]

I know madshi has implemented a warning for SuperRes but also note this should apply to the "artifact removal" section for "reduce ringing artifacts". You will get aliasing with NGU and dehalo enabled and even stronger aliasing when dark dehalo is checked. It is also stated that dark dehalo is not recommend for anime. Just want to make sure NGU gets a fair shake when people are comparing screenshots. And yes, I agree NNEDI3 does a great job image doubling and striking a good balance. NGU already has Dehalo aka "reduce ringing artifacts" built in I believe which is causing the conflict. Aliasing inherent in the source material will of course be more obvious with NGU. That's also a good reason why NNEDI3 is a good fallback for sources where you want to hide those specific artifacts. Below is my 480p DVD source fed to Vapoursynth w/ AA processing.
Note that "reduce ringing artifacts" reveals source aliasing whatsoever upscaler used.

[ajp_anton]

with a game the agenda is to display a frame right at the moment it is completely rendered which is the desired behavior realized with g/free-sync.

with video though we already have finished frames and know beforehand when a frame is supposed to be shown. and according to madshi that's the whole problem. there is no API allowing you to tell when to display a frame. from what I understand with games the display sync with gsync is triggered in hardware by the completion of a frame rendering. you can't apply that to videos.So video can in fact be even smoother than games with G-/Freesync, because video can afford to delay each frame a bit to compensate for variable rendering times, while games will just display when the job is finished.
Not saying video should use anything other than V-sync, It just feels like I'm learning more and more about how games can never be perfectly smooth =).

[oddball]

I've just got a LG OLED55B6V and have no idea how to output HDR demo files correctly. I can play them from a USB stick plugged into the TV but from the PC (AMD Radeaon RX480 and high speed HDMI 2.0 cable) I get washed out colors on HDR pass through and am unsure what I should set for other option if HDR to SDR is set. Do I not get HDR output if HDR to SDR is set? Obviously I have set the panel to 10 bit and above but am unsure about the other settings like gamma curve etc. It's a bit beyond my understanding :(

[Crimson Wolf]

I've just got a LG OLED55B6V and have no idea how to output HDR demo files correctly. I can play them from a USB stick plugged into the TV but from the PC (AMD Radeaon RX480 and high speed HDMI 2.0 cable) I get washed out colors on HDR pass through and am unsure what I should set for other option if HDR to SDR is set. Do I not get HDR output if HDR to SDR is set? Obviously I have set the panel to 10 bit and above but am unsure about the other settings like gamma curve etc. It's a bit beyond my understanding :(

What is your OS? Have you tried MS store app called "Film & TV" with the HDR demo files?

[aufkrawall]

Note that "reduce ringing artifacts" reveals source aliasing whatsoever upscaler used.
The problem is not aliasing but that the ringing gets an aliased look with derining + NGU or deringing + SuperRes >1.

[ryrynz]

Also, things in the settings that still need to be clearer:
- "downscale quality" should also say what the algorithm actually is.


It does in the OSD.


- "chroma quality", what is this and why is it active with NNEDI3 but not NGU?


Again, the OSD is your friend, It changes things for me..
704x480 > 1920x1200

Normal Bicubic 60 > Bicubic 60
High NGU low > Bicubic 60
Very High NGU Med > NGU Low.


- NNEDI3/NGU, "activate only if it's useful", what is being used to upscale when it's *not* useful?


Do u even OSD?


- When scaling using DXVA, it should say that it also handles chroma (I'm assuming that it does).

Nobody else has cared about this, it's pretty self explanatory because there's no option for chroma.. and guess what..
If you use the OSD..

Chroma > DXVA

[LoRd_MuldeR]

NNEDI3/NGU, "activate only if it's useful", what is being used to upscale when it's *not* useful?
Do u even OSD?

I was wondering about that too. Noticed that it falls back to simple Cubic interpolation, when the scaling factor drops below a certain threshold. Can this be changed, e.g. to Jinc?

(or is Cubic interpolation considered "good enough" for those small scaling factors?)

[ryrynz]

Madshi must've deemed it good enough. I'm sure he would've done comparisons before simplifying it.
There's no way to change it and I doubt he'll put it back in because there's just too many options to choose from in a drop down box.
This is the purpose of automatic settings anyway, if someone wants NNEDI3 or NGU doubling all the time all the other options are there.

[leeperry]

A lot of major nitpicking between a zillion algos for years and now suddenly it's pretty much all auto with no way to choose what we used to like best, oh well more free time for other hobbies I guess.....such as watching movies instead of watching mVR eh ^^

[Sp00kyFox]

So video can in fact be even smoother than games with G-/Freesync, because video can afford to delay each frame a bit to compensate for variable rendering times, while games will just display when the job is finished.
it could be if you actually had the option to set the exact point of time at which a frame should be displayed, which isn't the case. that's why g/freesync so far is useless for videos.

[Dodgexander]

I wondered in anyone can help me troubleshoot this problem, I don't know where to start! When I am using MadVR and MPC HC my PC always BSODs when it tries to go in to sleep, this only happens in this situation. The driver crashing is ntoskrnl.exe and the faulting address too (ntoskrnl.exe+14a510). Bug check code is always the same with 0x00000119.

I can repeat this easy and it happens even when I pause a video. thanks for any help you can give

[ryrynz]

I can repeat this easy and it happens even when I pause a video. thanks for any help you can give

Only with MPC-HC? Only with madVR? What have you done to troubleshoot?

A lot of major nitpicking between a zillion algos for years and now suddenly it's pretty much all auto with no way to choose what we used to like best, oh well more free time for other hobbies I guess.....such as watching movies instead of watching mVR eh ^^

It's like your not even the same person any more.. :D

[Ver Greeneyes]

@madshi, since you mentioned you were working on direct quadrupling with NGU, do you think direct tripling would be a possibility as well? This would be useful for upscaling 720p content to 2160p for instance.

[aufkrawall]

A lot of major nitpicking between a zillion algos for years and now suddenly it's pretty much all auto with no way to choose what we used to like best
If we are honest, the differences after doubling/quadrupling with just little linear scaling are ever so neglectable, we shouldn't make a fetish of it...

[ryrynz]

@madshi, since you mentioned you were working on direct quadrupling with NGU, do you think direct tripling would be a possibility as well?

Should have mentioned: In a future version (not the first) NG1 will probably also be able to directly triple or quadruple the resolution in one step.

There you go.

[AngelGraves13]

I miss having the option to choose my own settings after doubling. I think the image is just too sharp with the settings it applies. Soften edges is required for the image to look normal. When choosing Best for downscaling, shouldn't it actually use the best algorithm?

Maybe soften edges shouldn't even be a choice and should just be applied automatically after upscaling with NGU. It looks better that way, so you might as well do away with the checkbox and just have it on full time when using it. The level of NGU should determine the level of softness applied. Very High needs Soften 3 to my eyes or SD content looks horrible.

Add Grain should be available to all downscaling or upscaling methods, and not just NGU.

[ryrynz]

Add Grain should be available to all downscaling or upscaling methods, and not just NGU.

I think that was the plan eventually.

[leeperry]

If we are honest, the differences after doubling/quadrupling with just little linear scaling are ever so neglectable, we shouldn't make a fetish of it...
Well, Bicubic150 AR for downscaling is certainly a major deal breaker for many ppl here and now all we got for linear upscaling is Cubic? Seriously.

I was both being ironic and kinda tired of having to constantly whine for sub-options not to suddenly disappear like a thief in the night so I'll let the others complain this time, we'll see who's the videophool nowhttp://files.head-fi.org/images/smilies/evil_smiley.gif

At least 1080i50/60 and 1080p look stunning, can't argue with that and yes I might have to find a new hobby if all I got at hand is Cubic upscaling now. I certainly remember how amazing 0.91.1 looked, oh well those were the days http://forum-images.hardware.fr/icones/ohwell.gif

Maybe soften edges shouldn't even be a choice and should just be applied automatically after upscaling with NGU.

Please no, I really don't like this blurring option....but then again I can't use AB downscaling anymore, oh well my patience is being tested here I think.

[Neo-XP]

Madshi must've deemed it good enough. I'm sure he would've done comparisons before simplifying it.
There's no way to change it and I doubt he'll put it back in because there's just too many options to choose from in a drop down box.
This is the purpose of automatic settings anyway, if someone wants NNEDI3 or NGU doubling all the time all the other options are there.

There is no need to add a tons of other options from the drop down box, just one with a "user defined" selection to use the algorithm that is already selected on the same and other scaling menus, when NGU is used. This way everybody will be happy : the casuals and the advanced users that have spent (too much) time to find the right settings for the contents they play. We can also have an easy/expert mode, why not ?

For instance, how do you use "Catmull-Rom AR LL" for downscaling after a "luma doubling with NGU 2x supersampling" ? Depending on the source material, you could also use Spline/Lanczos for a sharper, but clean result. The only forced choices that you have now are "billinear", "bicubic150 AR" and "SSim1D100 AR" (I'm not liking any of those).

On the other hand, we can also stay with v0.91.1 for now, which has all we need and the awesome NGU :)

[Warner306]

I can "barely" tell the difference. Leave things as is. madshi is the expert.

Although, I still don't like having downscaling under "image upscaling."