madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[tp4tissue]

Turn off Link assurance.

Your AMD setting also is on FULL RGB, that's 0-255, but your Madvr setting is on 16-235

[huhn]

to even have a chance to see all steps on that test pattern there is no other combination to get that...

he is using a normal limited full limited chain which AMD doesn't seem to respect.

[GoodGravyMan]

Correct the GPU is set to output full range but the projector is calibrated and set to accept limited levels, MadVR should be outputting limited to the display in that case. I read this is the preferred way to do it as the GPU isn't handling any conversion and MadVR is doing everything.

[GoodGravyMan]

it also doesn't explain why this behavior only happens on when the output it set to 10/12 bit mode and doesn't do it in 8 bit mode.

[tp4tissue]

Correct the GPU is set to output full range but the projector is calibrated and set to accept limited levels, MadVR should be outputting limited to the display in that case. I read this is the preferred way to do it as the GPU isn't handling any conversion and MadVR is doing everything.


I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

Have you tried lining it up ?

[huhn]

recommended it full range for everything this is limited full limited setup is only a backup option for devices which can't handle full range or limited range is needed for another device which can't output full range.

[GoodGravyMan]

I'll try making everything full range and see if the black levels stay constant.

[galneon]

With a GTX 970, are my best options for downscaling 4k content to 1080 between DXVA and SSIM? I can't run Jinc without dropping frames--around 18 ms increased rendering latency versus SSIM 1D 100%, both with all boxes checked--though it would otherwise be my ideal.

Opinions on DXVA vs SSIM downscaling? I have a feeling the answer is obvious, but I'll ask nonetheless as I'm new to 4k sources...

[huhn]

ssim is by far the best downscaler. jinc in my opinion doesn't stand a chance.

bicubic 150 is another good downscaler but i would not recommend it for images that are not upscaled first because it can cause serious issues otherwise.

[nsnhd]

Yeah, SSIM 2D is so good that I do everything to keep it as my downscaler and I feel that the downscaled pictures so sharp that I dont need a 4k projector.

[GoodGravyMan]

recommended it full range for everything this is limited full limited setup is only a backup option for devices which can't handle full range or limited range is needed for another device which can't output full range.

Making everything full range actually made this issue worse when at 10bits. Once again everything is fine when its set to 8bits.

Whenever i go into a fullscreen window or exclusive mode my black level is completely crushed. When in "Windowed" mode it looks ok.

Here are my settings now:
10 bit output in AMD drivers, Full RGB, link assurance off.
MadVR set to output Full RGB
Projector set to full RGB

I've been playing with AMD driver versions as well and that doesn't seem to make a difference.

https://imgur.com/a/lj7y3QV

You can see this in the video. When the seek bar is active MadVR is in "windowed 8 bit" mode and the black levels look ok. Once i let the seek bar disappear MadVR moves to "fullscreen windowed 10bit" and the black levels are crushed. For some reason 10bit output just seems broken.

Thanks for all the suggestions of things to try! I would love to get 10bit output working correctly, i am pretty sure this was working fine a few months ago...

[GoodGravyMan]

Yeah, SSIM 2D is so good that I do everything to keep it as my downscaler and I feel that the downscaled pictures so sharp that I dont need a 4k projector.

I used to say that when i had my 1080P projector :) . Now that I've gone native 4K and upscaling all my 1080P content I'm never going back!

[huhn]

i don't need a video or an image i know what you are talking about. you have done a very good explanation.
i currently don't have a AMD card connected to a system that supports more then 8 bit input so i can't try to reproduce it.

so just stick to 8 bit for now the difference is very minimal anyway. it will break AMD HDR API but you are on a projector anyway.
the AMD driver are sadly currently very very buggy.

there is just one thing you could sahre you are not using the windows OS HDR toggle?
Optimus is nvidia, he's using rx580.

so a laptop with a 1060 is now an rx 580?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

Have you tried lining it up ?

no it does work this way. limited in madVR and the GPU driver is always wrong.

Im trying to get playback in24p with movies. I get servere stutter if i use dx11 without fse. (got 6core cpu and 2070gtx). if i use fse i think it works but madvr reports 60hz composition rate with 24p content. strange right?

isnt fse and dx11 needed to get proper 10bit hdr playback?

you don't need FSE for 10 bit output you don't need 10 bit for HDR and it's sadly not a rare bug with the composition rate.

the composition rate bug usually comes from using 2 screens.
workaround is overlay rendering the next windows version has a planned change to minimise this issue but it still not fixed.
FSE was supposed to fix this to but that's pretty much fake on windows 10.

[galneon]

Thanks huhn and nsnhd--easy enough choice.

No thanks, native 4k projector snob. ;)

[GoodGravyMan]

It's definitely is starting to feel like an AMD driver issue, my guess is one of the updates to Windows and something screwy on AMDs side messed it all up.

I am not using the windows HDR setting, I'm letting MadVR do all the tone mapping so I only ever output sdr on this HTPC.

For now I'll leave it all as 8bit, and maybe switch to a Nvidia card in the future.

Thanks!

[Budtz]

i don't need a video or an image i know what you are talking about. you have done a very good explanation.
i currently don't have a AMD card connected to a system that supports more then 8 bit input so i can't try to reproduce it.

so just stick to 8 bit for now the difference is very minimal anyway. it will break AMD HDR API but you are on a projector anyway.
the AMD driver are sadly currently very very buggy.

there is just one thing you could sahre you are not using the windows OS HDR toggle?


so a laptop with a 1060 is now an rx 580?



no it does work this way. limited in madVR and the GPU driver is always wrong.



you don't need FSE for 10 bit output you don't need 10 bit for HDR and it's sadly not a rare bug with the composition rate.

the composition rate bug usually comes from using 2 screens.
workaround is overlay rendering the next windows version has a planned change to minimise this issue but it still not fixed.
FSE was supposed to fix this to but that's pretty much fake on windows 10.

thx for the reply.

what about the stuttering with directx11 that goes away if I use dx9. that also seems like a bug. as far as i remeber there inst anything to see in the stats. no glitches og frames or anything lost. it just stutters

[huhn]

you can try a low present at advanced value of 2-3 to make does the trick.
there are multiply reports of turing cards showing problem with the normal 8.

but again as long as the composition rate mismatch is still there you are sadly playing with fire.
d3d11 doesn't have overlay rendering.

[tp4tissue]

Making everything full range actually made this issue worse when at 10bits. Once again everything is fine when its set to 8bits.

Whenever i go into a fullscreen window or exclusive mode my black level is completely crushed. When in "Windowed" mode it looks ok.

Here are my settings now:
10 bit output in AMD drivers, Full RGB, link assurance off.
MadVR set to output Full RGB
Projector set to full RGB

I've been playing with AMD driver versions as well and that doesn't seem to make a difference.

https://imgur.com/a/lj7y3QV

You can see this in the video. When the seek bar is active MadVR is in "windowed 8 bit" mode and the black levels look ok. Once i let the seek bar disappear MadVR moves to "fullscreen windowed 10bit" and the black levels are crushed. For some reason 10bit output just seems broken.

Thanks for all the suggestions of things to try! I would love to get 10bit output working correctly, i am pretty sure this was working fine a few months ago...

In the video it's blurry, but it looks like you have a 3dlut applied

Put everything to full, turn off your 3d lut, and all your calibration settings.

Reset the gamma table in the GPU loader, make sure those things are not doing corrections, because you may have created them in the wrong display state. <so the corrections are borked>

Also select disable gpu ramp in the calibration tab

If it's still doing the crush, try full screen exclusive mode.

[NoTechi]

It's definitely is starting to feel like an AMD driver issue, my guess is one of the updates to Windows and something screwy on AMDs side messed it all up.

I am not using the windows HDR setting, I'm letting MadVR do all the tone mapping so I only ever output sdr on this HTPC.

For now I'll leave it all as 8bit, and maybe switch to a Nvidia card in the future.

Thanks!

Just wanted to let you know I don't have that issue with newest AMD driver so I don't think it's the driver.

NoTechi

[mclingo]

[QUOTE=GoodGravyMan;
Thanks![/QUOTE]

I'm not convinced its a driver issue, I think more people would have noticed this, feels like an issue with your setup as I used an RX580 for ages and never had this issue, however I was nearly always just using 8bit.

Problem is there probably arent enough people here with AMD cards that are using a full 10 bit setup as its just not necessary really, however OLDPAINLESS does have a similar problem with the latest driver where when he seeks it drops to what looks like limited output, but he's using a NAVI card.

I'll have a play with 10 bit and see if anything crops up.

[GoodGravyMan]

In the video it's blurry, but it looks like you have a 3dlut applied

Put everything to full, turn off your 3d lut, and all your calibration settings.

Reset the gamma table in the GPU loader, make sure those things are not doing corrections, because you may have created them in the wrong display state. <so the corrections are borked>

Also select disable gpu ramp in the calibration tab

If it's still doing the crush, try full screen exclusive mode.

I did have a LUT applied in that video but I've tried with it on and off and it isn't making a difference. I've also set all the projector settings back to default and I still see it. I only see this when using the HTPC and MadVR and not any other source. I can play the same patterns on my shield and Blu-Ray player without issue.

GPU gamma ramp is disabled in the MadVR settings already. Exclusive and non-exclusive mode also do the same thing.

I don't remember setting anything with any gamma table in the GPU loader, how do i reset that?

[GoodGravyMan]

I'm not convinced its a driver issue, I think more people would have noticed this, feels like an issue with your setup as I used an RX580 for ages and never had this issue, however I was nearly always just using 8bit.

Problem is there probably arent enough people here with AMD cards that are using a full 10 bit setup as its just not necessary really, however OLDPAINLESS does have a similar problem with the latest driver where when he seeks it drops to what looks like limited output, but he's using a NAVI card.

I'll have a play with 10 bit and see if anything crops up.

This sounds somewhat similar to what i am seeing, that as soon as i use the seek bar and/or pause play the video (anything to cause MadVR to drop out of fullscreen mode) in 10Bit mode MadVR/GPU/Windows/?? seems to get confused about the RGB levels its supposed to be sending out.

[mclingo]

yes that does sound the same, which windows version are you on?

Thinking back there was a time where I've had something similar with my RX580 but it it always when I dropped out of full screen when using FSE, it was like MADVR was dropping back to limited as coming out of full screen was breaking the processing chain. With later drivers I didnt need FSE. If you are getting it with FSE turned off then i'm not sure whats going on.

I still cant help feeling both of you have got something in your chain causing this, whether its a duff cable causing a bandwith issue or a setting in you video player, lav or MADVR settings I dont know but here are my old settings when using RX580.

Windows 1809
graphics set to 8 bit full RGB but
link ass off
scaling full panel

MADVR

everything (relevant) unticked unless stated
PC levels - 0-255
native bit - 10 bit (not auto)
calibration - disabled
diaply modes - 2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p25, 2x160p30, 2160p50, 2160p60
HDR 113 beta - output in HDR enabled.
use DIRECT 3D 11 for pres - ticked
trade quality for performance - all unticked apart from comp HDR luminance as my RX580 couldnt handle that

Lav - D3D11

installed players for MADVR:

KODI DS better GUI version - windowed mode turned off
MPC-HC with external lav filters used

[Alexkral]

Is there a way to take a screenshot of a video upscaled with NGU in a MPC-HC window? Full screen is easy with Print Screen, but when I use MPC-HC to capture a window, it seems that the video is upscaled with bicubic or something else.

[mclingo]

have you set your upscaling method in screen shots section of MADVR?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBigqsK8zfvy9NX8SPe_g?e=dMBxdb

[Alexkral]

Yes thanks, I had forgotten that, but you still can't tell if it's using very high, high, medium ...

EDIT: It seems that at least for "sharp" it uses "high" although the result is not identical. I wish I could use "very high".

[huhn]

it will use your currently selected scaling algorithms if you don't use "use high quality..."

it will use error diffusion for dithering not sure if you can disable that.

[GoodGravyMan]

I am running Windows 1903
outputting Full RGB 10 bit from the AMD drivers
link assurance is off
GPU scaling is off

MADVR (92.17 + beta 113):

Properties:
outputting PC levels
10bit bit depth

Calibration:
I normally have calibration with LUT enabled but i've tested with calibration disabled and i see the same thing.
Disable GPU gamma is enabled.

Display modes:
2160p23, 2160p24, 2x160p30

HDR:
tone map using pixel shaders.
i am not outputting in HDR format

rendering:
delay playback start
use Direct3d 11, with vysnc checked
everything else unchecked
only item checked in trade quality for performance is the HDR luminance as well

LAV 74.1.34
D3D11 with the GPU selected, making it copy back. I have tried native and that doesn't make a difference.
"RGB output levels" is set to untouched.

I am using MPC-HC with external LAV filters. I've also tested MPC-BE and that does the same thing.

One thing i have noticed is that when i am full screen in 10bit my projector says that the incoming video signal is in BT2020 when playing back SDR BT 709 content. When in 8bit mode it remains blank. I think i read in the driver thread there might be an issue with Windows 1903 and it correctly outputting BT2020. Maybe this is related to what I am seeing.

[huhn]

bt 709 and bt 2020 have nothing todo with levels.
and only the video driver is in control to send this type information.
not saying something else told the driver to do that but it is is control to do that.

there is no point in measuring anything this is an very obvious level issue.
if you want to see if the 3D LUT is related press control+shift+3 or control+alt+shift+3 to check.

what so ever the different flag should not be used outside HDR API with HDR API that should be bt2020. unlike nvidia madVR can't tell the driver what is is supposed to output that part doesn't work back when madshi was implementing it for nvidia.

[GoodGravyMan]

I created my LUT when the output was set to 8 bit when i don't have the level issue, and i think its created correctly as when i do a full measurement in HCFR everything is under a deltaE of 1.

I wondering if the driver and/or Windows is doing something behind MadVR's back when in 10 bit mode. There shouldn't be any reason to output the BT2020 flag but something is setting it. I wonder if this same path is breaking the level output as well.

Either way for now i'm just going to stay with 8 bit output, its not worth the headache for 10bit :) .

[mclingo]

oddly ironic that your RX580 is forcing BT2020 for SDR when my RX5700 has a problem where its forcing BT709 for HDR, the workaround for me is to bypass the AMD HDR API by turning on windows HDR before playing the movie.

[tp4tissue]

I created my LUT when the output was set to 8 bit when i don't have the level issue, and i think its created correctly as when i do a full measurement in HCFR everything is under a deltaE of 1.

I wondering if the driver and/or Windows is doing something behind MadVR's back when in 10 bit mode. There shouldn't be any reason to output the BT2020 flag but something is setting it. I wonder if this same path is breaking the level output as well.

Either way for now i'm just going to stay with 8 bit output, its not worth the headache for 10bit :) .


Are we sure the JVC supports 4:4:4 10bit full-rgb @ 23/24 hz.

It may support those options with a different combination, but not all together.

For example, samsung TVs pewps itself when using 23/24hz it drops out of pc mode, won't use full chroma

We should prolly do all testing at 23/24 hz to encompass 8bit 10bit difference ontop of the chroma, the combo might be triggering something either pc driver side or projector side.

[Manni]

Are we sure the JVC supports 4:4:4 10bit full-rgb @ 23/24 hz.

It may support those options with a different combination, but not all together.

For example, samsung TVs pewps itself when using 23/24hz it drops out of pc mode, won't use full chroma

We should prolly do all testing at 23/24 hz to encompass 8bit 10bit difference ontop of the chroma, the combo might be triggering something either pc driver side or projector side.

No JVC supports above 4:2:2 above 8bits in 4K properly.

Whenever you send 4:4:4 10bits or 12bits, they downconvert behind madVR's back and force 4:2:2 12bits.

This is why it's highly recommended to use RGB 8bits with the JVCs (all models including the new 4K models) until they fix this.

Note that when I reported this to them, they "fixed" it in the new 4K models by making all the options in the menu send 4:2:2, without telling the user that that's what they do.

If you use "auto", you have no way to know that they do this unless you check with a chroma pattern. With older models, it's obvious because you'll see it's YCC that's being sent even when you select RGB in the driver.

I think it's because they don't take into account that 30p and below in 4K are valid at 10 or 12bits 4:4:4 (it fits within the 18gb/s bandwidth). So they force everything to 4:2:2 12bits.

Or maybe it's an internal processing limitation.

I don't know about AMD but there are lots of issues with levels in 12bits on nVidia. Frequently the levels are not the same in SDR and HDR, and/or the gamut saturation is wrong which causes lots of calibration issues. Each driver behaves differently. If you don't need 3D and if you have a GTX, you might be able to go back to an old enough driver that handles 12bits properly. Most recent versions don't.

The bottom line with the JVCs is either use 4:2:2 12bits (which is a shame with madVR as you let the JVCs do half the chroma upscaling, and they are not good at it) or use RGB 8bits, to get madVR's goodness at upscaling to 4:4:4. This makes a big difference, especially with bluray and lower res.

There is no visible downside to using RGB 8bits out re banding, even with 10bits UHD content, while the downside re chroma is very visible, especially with desktop content / games. With video content that starts at 4:2:0, it might be less obvious.

[GoodGravyMan]

Thanks Manni.

I guess that settles it, I am going to stick with 8bit RGB 4:4:4 for now.

[petran79]

optimus?

no its the new laptop models with native GPU cards.
Will try MPC to see if it is a Potplayer issue.

[mclingo]

well, AMD with their latest driver 20.3.1 has fixed the HDR bug but I cant now set 4k tv to 1080p FULL RGB at all, if I run my display in 1080p mode it keeps defaulting to 444YBCR,

[mrmojo666]

well, AMD with their latest driver 20.3.1 has fixed the HDR bug but I cant now set 4k tv to 1080p FULL RGB at all, if I run my display in 1080p mode it keeps defaulting to 444YBCR,

just to understand, you mean now you can send bt2020 in hdr mode with a 5700 ?
and what do you mean with" I cant now set 4k tv to 1080p FULL RGB at all, if I run my display in 1080p mode it keeps defaulting to 444YBCR". do you not upscale to 4k the 1080 ?
thank you

[mclingo]

just to understand, you mean now you can send bt2020 in hdr mode with a 5700 ?
and what do you mean with" I cant now set 4k tv to 1080p FULL RGB at all, if I run my display in 1080p mode it keeps defaulting to 444YBCR". do you not upscale to 4k the 1080 ?
thank you


Hi, yeah HDR BT2020 is fully fixed and if i was running my TV in 2160p i've be laughing, the issue is I run my 4k TV desktop at 1080p,. MADVR is still set to play everything at 4k, the issue is if you set your desktop to 4k MVC 3D is buggy as hell and often just doesnt work but thats another discussion.

I can select full rgb 444 but it imediately drops back to ybcr444 12 bit, no matter what I change it to it drops back to this, its odd.

i might try another cable or something.

[mrmojo666]

I can select full rgb 444 but it imediately drops back to ybcr444 12 bit, no matter what I change it to it drops back to this, its odd.



sorry for bugging , but i'm thinking to buy a 5600xt. is it happening @ 4k 23hz 12bit?

thank you mate

[mclingo]

4k is all fine for everything, no issues at all. I think its some incompatibilty with my TV as if I plug in my Samsung N8000 it works fine, if this is the case i've zero chance of getting this fixed unless other people with LG tv's have same issue.

truly gutted.

[mclingo]

can anyone with a 4k LG OLED drop their desktop to 1080p60 to see if they are also locked at 4:4:4 YBCR 12 bit - with latest amd 20.3.1

[QBhd]

Sounds like a CRU issue to me...

1080p works fine for me... even 120Hz

QB

[mclingo]

would you care to expand on that, what do you mean exactly, we dont normally use custom resolutions with AMD cards, I dont anyway.

[mclingo]

ive discovered if I run may TV in 1080p30 hz this also works, very odd that 23/24/60 hz are all broken but 30hz is ok.

[mrmojo666]

hi,
may i ask why you have you 4k tv and use 1080p ?

[mclingo]

hi, convenience mainly, two issues, first one is minor, i connect to my pc from work every day and run it in 1080p, just saves me having to log off and on when i get home as DPI is all messed up. The main reason is MVC 3D & KODI DS. KODI DS doesnt play nice with 3d unless either you have the gui and your desktop set to 1080p, it often wont trigger at all so you either have to drop to 1080p before you start KODI DS or just use MPC-HC to play 3D movies as this as no problem playing 3D movies from any desktop resolution. This wasnt the case until quite recently though, i cant remember which windows version broken this though.

So I have two choices - 1. run a 4k desktop and use 3d with another player and log off and on every night when I get home. or 2. use my 1080p desktop @30hz for now and everything works properly, 4k HDR movies, 3D movies etc, and no desktop log offs.

if anyone can suggest a fix for KODI DS MVC 3d i'm all ears however, ive tried everything I can think of though.

[Audionut]

What about plugging the onboard graphics into something (just an AVR might work) and extending the displays? Whatever app you're connecting to, have that running on the extended (onboard VGA) display. Might work.

[mclingo]

Hi, not sure what you mean, how will that help, or were you replying to a different post?

[mrmojo666]

Thank u mclingo, understood.

[Audionut]

Hi, not sure what you mean, how will that help, or were you replying to a different post?

Here, I have video going from Nvidia to TV, and audio going from onboard HDMI to AVR. Extended displays so I have 4K to TV and 1080p to AVR, different refresh rates etc.

Connect to PC on the 1080p display?