madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Ver Greeneyes]

I don't know if it'll work for every video, but I'm really liking the look of AdaptiveSharpen 1.0 + anti-bloat (upscaling refinement) on this 720p -> 1080p upscale :) (applied after Nnedi64 doubling + 2-pass SuperRes + SSIM2D AR downscaling). Without anti-bloat AdaptiveSharpen looks weird, but the combination looks really natural, and sharpens things more than just using Crispen Edges. Anti-bloating doesn't seem to visibly affect SuperRes.

[Georgel]

I will try to give feedback on how the new version feels on my end.

1. sharpen edges from image enhancements is great, and the anti bloating filter, as well as AR filter are amazing! I am using the strength of AB filter as 150% and I am extremely happy with the results.

2. Thanks a LOT for adding more space to edge thinning. It is wonderful! I will have a UHD screen in a few days, and tell you how it works with that, but with my actual screen, thin edges at 8 + sharpen edges at 4 + AR + AB 150% is the best setup I had ever seen. It is even much much better than it was before. Thanks again for adding this!

3. Crispen edges looks noisy with animated materials. But crispen edges + AR actually looks nice with real life materials.

4. Adaptive sharpen is noisy with either real life or animated videos.

5. Luma sharpen is pretty nice with real life materials, while it does not work with animated materials (I think that the design will never allow it to make anime better, as it actually improves the resolution and detail of real life materials, while this process adds noise to anime).

6. I would call anti bloating filter an amazing thing to have, though, I would try adding to it's strength even more.

7. I do not have any problems with any chroma upsampling filters though NNEDI3 is as slow as ever, and does not run, even in 16 Neurons fluidly with a mid-high end GTX860M. I think that there can be a bit of space for improvements on this part. About XBR, I personally like Jinc more. There are certain videos, where image is aliased (entire Railgun series, or some textures in Fate series), though I suspect that chroma upsampling does not have anything to do with this.

8. Chroma downscaling SSIM 2D + AR (only soft works) + Scale linear light + AB 150% is good, though it impacts rendering time quite a bit. I would say that it is a bit over-smooth, but I do not have big complaints with this. (1D is twice as fast for example).

9. For image upscaling, there should be better algorithms. For example, I would much rater have NNEDI for image upscaling than chroma, if it were possible, because I have a few videos where the image upscaling is more of a problem, especially due to aliasing than chroma upscaling. I am using jinc image upscaling + AR + sigmoidal light.

10. Upscaling refinement works great too, thanks for introducing more edge thinning. Anti bloat works great here too!



What I would like to see / my gripes:

1. Dithering is still problematic for me (I see dithering on Illya's face, but I have a strong feeling it is the monitor I am using at the moment what is causing it, as it is 6 bits, and it might add too much dithering. I will come over this statement again when I receive my UHD display.

2. nVidia drivers are still broken, D3D11 crashes

3. I would want even more edge thinning, you can add until say 12, and add to edge sharpening until, say 6. I really like their effects when combined. Especially now.

4. you should make the screen bigger, because some options might go out of the screen. Or you could make it adjustable, now that more and more people are using UHD resolution, and some of them use it with scaling, so what everyone sees is different. I am talking about the madVR settings screens.



Thanks for a great work!

I can't wait to see the next version and what features will be added!

[YxP]

For image upscaling, there should be better algorithms. For example, I would much rater have NNEDI for image upscaling than chroma, if it were possible, because I have a few videos where the image upscaling is more of a problem, especially due to aliasing than chroma upscaling. I am using jinc image upscaling + AR + sigmoidal light.
Image doublers cannot upscale a little. They are, by design, image doublers. Chroma is saved at half resolution so it can be doubled to luma's size.


New crispen edges is really good for real life content. I didn't actually like it at all before. Maybe some placebo there, but now it is my preferred sharpener. Anti-bloat seems great, although I had to see the example pictures to really see what it does. 100% seems to be a good default strength after short testing. With superres I get the feeling as if AB is just working against it. Probably wrong, but that's just my feeling. I cannot use more than SR@2 anyway without the GPU fan going crazy.

Nice update yet again madshi. Thanks.

[Georgel]

I must update my tutorial with all the new settings, to make sure it is up to date.

@madshi , is there any improvement that can be applied to madVR to work with Gsync features? I had seen it becoming more and more used in new hardware, and I think that madVR could try to be using it.

This is a pretty far fetched idea, and probably someone from SVP would have to do this if it were to be done, but considering radius of movement and edge detection, it would be possible, using Gsync to interpolate only the panning of the screen, and let the characters move at their own peace or double their frames, without trying to interpolate, using some sort of edge detection. This would be worthy of consideration only if implemented at the same time with madVR. It could create a very unique effect for animated content. Animated content will probably never be 60fps smooth, because it still needs to be animated using frame to frame drawings, and interframe, so anime would probably have the best gains from adding such features.

[huhn]

g sync is kind of banned in this thread don't talk about it.

the search function should give you all the answer you need to know about g sync and madVR.

[Georgel]

g sync is kind of banned in this thread don't talk about it.

the search function should give you all the answer you need to know about g sync and madVR.

sorry, I was not aware of that.

Good thing to know now. I might had run into problems when I get Gsync, and might had not known where they are coming from.

I did not see exactly where the incompatibility lies. Sorry, if this is not something worthy of discussion.

[JarrettH]

Is super xbr now "better than" reconstruction soft for chroma?

[fedpul]

Hi, I'm having a problem when I open 4k jpgs to test downscaling. madVR reports "creating upload textures failed" and it crashes.

[mzso]

You can configure profiles for different types of content.
See here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271417#post1271417
Click "scaling algorithms" then click "create profile group" and so on.

This post (http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188&pid=2238974#pid2238974) has some starter profiles and instructions on how to implement them in the madVR control panel.

Thanks guys!

[ryrynz]

Is super xbr now "better than" reconstruction soft for chroma?

It wasn't ever in the running (http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166640) AFAIC.

Set sharpness to whatever you want, all are good choices depending on how bright you like it. Enabling anti-ringing is a very good idea.
Personally I prefer values of around 100-150, 25 is nice if you like something close to Jinc but without the ringing issues and better performance too
I might end up settling on 125 now.

I'd would like to know for sure what would be closest to actual 4:4:4 content, maybe someone could test that, I suspect 125 or 150 would probably be the closest.

[Georgel]

Is there any possibility to construct any type of setting that would use image enhancements if video is FHD and use upscaling refinement if video is under FHD?

[Warner306]

Random Thoughts:

I know things are not optimized yet, but the performance of the new anti-ringing algorithms is really bad.
SuperRes is particularly slow now.
I can't tell if the anti-ringing filter is doing anything for SuperRes. I'm not sure if it is needed.

As for anti-bloating, I'm not sure if I like it or not. I have gone through a few test images. I don't have a great eye, but it was easy to spot on certain images. It appears to make sharpening a little more blurry to make fine detail appear more natural. I don't know if this loss of detail is good or bad.

You may want to download the full resolution images and look at them at 1920 x 1080. It can be hard to see the difference at the size they are posted.

Image 1 - SuperRes + AR:

Chroma: super-xbr100 + AR
Image: Jinc3 + AR
Double Luma: 2x or greater - super-xbr100
Double Chroma: 2x or greater - super-xbr100
Upscaling refinement: crispen edges (1.0) + AR, SuperRes (3) + AR
Artifact removal - Debanding: Medium/High
Image enhancements: Off
Dithering: Ordered

Image 2 - SuperRes + AR + Anti-Bloat 100%:

Chroma: super-xbr100 + AR
Image: Jinc3 + AR
Double Luma: 2x or greater - super-xbr100
Double Chroma: 2x or greater - super-xbr100
Upscaling refinement: crispen edges (1.0) + AR, SuperRes (3) + AR + anti-bloating 100%
Artifact removal - Debanding: Medium/High
Image enhancements: Off
Dithering: Ordered

The first image is sharpened with crispen edges and SuperRes (3) without anti-bloating. It is hard to see at this resolution, but notice the detail in the whiskers and the cat's fur:

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Cat-AR_zpspyzjmiah.png

Anti-bloating 100%: The whiskers become finer and softer. Some blurring/softness is introduced to the fur around the right eye:

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Cat-NoBloat_zps5u3f2li7.png

Original Image (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Cat_zpsdoxwr0dz.jpg)
SuperRes + AR (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Cat-AR_zpspyzjmiah.png)
SuperRes with anti-bloating 100% (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Cat-NoBloat_zps5u3f2li7.png)

In the second image, keep an eye on the smoke stack in the distance and the hedge row. This is SuperRes without anti-bloating:

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Hedge-Row-AR_zpsw4wapw71.png

Anti-bloating 100%: The composition of the hedges is altered making them thinner, as if they've been trimmed. Also, the base of the smoke stack in the distance is now blurry.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Hedge-Row-NoBloat_zps6myveivb.png

Original Image (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Hedge-Row_zps98fht4c2.jpg)
SuperRes + AR (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Hedge-Row-AR_zpsw4wapw71.png)
SuperRes with anti-bloating 100% (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Hedge-Row-NoBloat_zps6myveivb.png)

In the next image, watch the roof of the building in the distance (far left) and the detail on all of the window shutters.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Buildings-AR_zpsvo7gqnea.png

Anti-bloating 100%: The shingles on the roof of the building in the distance on the far left are now narrower. And the slats on all of the window shutters are now somewhat blurry and hard to make out.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Buildings-NoBloat_zpsguf45ph3.png

Original Image (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Buildings_zpszoog8mqj.png)
SuperRes + AR (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Buildings-AR_zpsvo7gqnea.png)
SuperRes with anti-bloating 100% (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Buildings-NoBloat_zpsguf45ph3.png)

Finally, the last image shows the same loss of fine detail in the fur of an animal; this time, a dog:

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Dog-AR_zpskqsl1g9e.png

Anti-bloating 100%: In addition to softening the dog's coat, the shape of the eye changes with anti-bloating enabled:

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Dog-NoBloat_zpswbabeenz.png

Original Image (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Dog_zpslkcunync.jpg)
SuperRes + AR (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Dog-AR_zpskqsl1g9e.png)
SuperRes with anti-bloating 100% (http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Dog-NoBloat_zpswbabeenz.png)

So what do you think? Is this an improvement or not?

[ryrynz]

I do have to wonder if setting a high sharpening value and a high anti-bloating via is counter productive.. there's a certain amount of high frequency sharpening you'd want to keep.
I can't help but think people will set high values on both when setting a lower values would actually be more beneficial.

In madshi's examples I was looking at them thinking.. why not just set adaptive sharpen to 0.2/0.3 or something, would have a similar end effect to having it at 1.5 with anti-bloating at 100%..

Oh Warner, I wouldn't say that's loss of detail.. the dog is oversharpened slightly. In motion it might look okay but it's starting to tip the scales of unnatural with regards to edges.
The ears and eyes in particular stand out to me. Anti-bloating is doing a good job of taming that.

Would be interesting to see at what point Crispen Edges starts to approach similar sharpness to 1.0 with anti-bloating and how that looks in comparison.

[Warner306]

I do have to wonder if setting a high sharpening value and a high anti-bloating via is counter productive.. there's a certain amount of high frequency sharpening you'd want to keep.
I can't help but think people will set high values on both when setting a lower values would actually be more beneficial.

In madshi's examples I was looking at them thinking.. why not just set adaptive sharpen to 0.2/0.3 or something, would have a similar end effect to having it at 1.5 with anti-bloating at 100%..

Oh Warner, I wouldn't say that's loss of detail.. the dog is oversharpened slightly. In motion it might look okay but it's starting to tip the scales of unnatural with regards to edges.
The ears and eyes in particular stand out to me. Anti-bloating is doing a good job of taming that.

Would be interesting to see at what point Crispen Edges starts to approach similar sharpness to 1.0 with anti-bloating and how that looks in comparison.

That is a good point. I do think SuperRes values of 3-4 are necessary when doing a 2x resize or greater to reach the ground truth. And it does introduce some bloat. But I don't know if the overall softening of anti-bloating takes away from the sharpness added by SuperRes when things are in motion. I'd rely on madshi's judgement on this, not mine.

For smaller resizes, it would be pointless to apply a high SuperRes value and soften it with anti-bloat. You might introduce artifacts.

[leeperry]

Anti-bloating should be quite obvious, at least for sharpening and SSIM, when using strong sharpening and SSIM strengths. E.g. try increasing SSIM strength to 100% and then using the Anti-Bloating filter with 100% on top of that. You might like the result, and it's anything but subtle in that configuration.
OK had more time to play around with it all today and as much as I enjoy the different strengths for SSIM, I hope they won't disappear for antibloat either please coz so far I've been really enjoying SSIM 2D 25% with a high level of anti-bloat as it's basically very detailed but not über-sharp/digital looking. 576*320@1080p never looked this good! Now to figure out who does what and what would be the best figure for SR & downscaling...and now that I think of it anti-bloat might be my antidote to SR's sheer sharpness w00t :devil:

All this said, still super impressed by what "enhance details"@0.7 does, KungFu Panda 3 in 1080p looks jaw-dropping with SR@1, 24p@60Hz using FRC and this thing checked :eek:

This "relaxed" vs "strict" setting was never meant for chroma and image upscaling, so it doesn't matter that it doesn't work there. It's only meant for image downscaling. And there is works. So it's not a real bug, just a cosmetical issue.
Oh OK coz it's confusing to have it everywhere, I'll try to figure out which one I prefer if there really is only one working then........oh I see it doesn't affect SSIM downscaling so nvm ^^

[Warner306]

I do have to wonder if setting a high sharpening value and a high anti-bloating via is counter productive.. there's a certain amount of high frequency sharpening you'd want to keep.
I can't help but think people will set high values on both when setting a lower values would actually be more beneficial.

In madshi's examples I was looking at them thinking.. why not just set adaptive sharpen to 0.2/0.3 or something, would have a similar end effect to having it at 1.5 with anti-bloating at 100%..

Oh Warner, I wouldn't say that's loss of detail.. the dog is oversharpened slightly. In motion it might look okay but it's starting to tip the scales of unnatural with regards to edges.
The ears and eyes in particular stand out to me. Anti-bloating is doing a good job of taming that.

Would be interesting to see at what point Crispen Edges starts to approach similar sharpness to 1.0 with anti-bloating and how that looks in comparison.

True, it is approaching oversharpening, but anti-bloating can overcompensate a little. It depends on your taste.

It is crispen edges that tips the scales towards oversharpening. But I've used this combination for some time and like it.

I might try to reduce the values of crispen edges. I don't look at enough test images.

[ryrynz]

...and now that I think of it anti-bloat might be my antidote to SR's sheer sharpness w00t :devil:


Ya know you might even want to consider high values for it now..

[Georgel]

That is a good point. I do think SuperRes values of 3-4 are necessary when doing a 2x resize or greater to reach the ground truth. And it does introduce some bloat. But I don't know if the overall softening of anti-bloating takes away from the sharpness added by SuperRes when things are in motion. I'd rely on madshi's judgement on this, not mine.

For smaller resizes, it would be pointless to apply a high SuperRes value and soften it with anti-bloat. You might introduce artifacts.

Your pictures have actually convinced me that anti bloat is so much more than welcome, it is very good!

I do think that without it, the pictures were over-sharpened and rather aliased, while with anti bloat, they are exactly the amount of sharpen you would want.

I do understand what you mean by slight loss of detail, but that detail was never there in reality, if you ask me.

It is exactly like @ryrynz said, people might have settings too high for sharpening and create over-sharpened images, and anti bloat actually compensates for that. If that looks better than smaller values for sharpening, I do not know.

[Warner306]

Your pictures have actually convinced me that anti bloat is so much more than welcome, it is very good!

I do think that without it, the pictures were over-sharpened and rather aliased, while with anti bloat, they are exactly the amount of sharpen you would want.

I do understand what you mean by slight loss of detail, but that detail was never there in reality, if you ask me.

It is exactly like @ryrynz said, people might have settings too high for sharpening and create over-sharpened images, and anti bloat actually compensates for that. If that looks better than smaller values for sharpening, I do not know.

I might run this test again without crispen edges. I really need more SD test images. Most images produce no difference at all. Others are obvious enough for me to see the change in real time. SuperRes should have been judged on its own.

[madshi]

Is there any possibility to construct any type of setting that would use image enhancements if video is FHD and use upscaling refinement if video is under FHD?
Sure, profiles.


I know things are not optimized yet, but the performance of the new anti-ringing algorithms is really bad.
SuperRes is particularly slow now.
I can't tell if the anti-ringing filter is doing anything for SuperRes. I'm not sure if it is needed.

The sharpening/SSIM/SuperRes AR algo may become even slower in future versions, as I improve the quality. Sorry, but quality comes first. Performance is a secondary goal. I'm not sure if AR is needed for SuperRes, either.

As for anti-bloating, I'm not sure if I like it or not. I have gone through a few test images. I don't have a great eye, but it was easy to spot on certain images. It appears to make sharpening a little more blurry to make fine detail appear more natural. I don't know if this loss of detail is good or bad.
Out of the 3 places where you can use Anti-Bloating (sharpening, SuperRes and SSIM downscaling) you've picked the one where I think the benefit is most questionable. When I did a quick test with SuperRes Anti-Bloating myself, I wasn't sure myself whether I thought it was any good or not. While I'm very sure it's useful for both sharpening and SSIM downscaling (although some users seem to disagree in regards to SSIM).

I do have to wonder if setting a high sharpening value and a high anti-bloating via is counter productive.. there's a certain amount of high frequency sharpening you'd want to keep.
I can't help but think people will set high values on both when setting a lower values would actually be more beneficial.

In madshi's examples I was looking at them thinking.. why not just set adaptive sharpen to 0.2/0.3 or something, would have a similar end effect to having it at 1.5 with anti-bloating at 100%..
I've already addressed your concern in my screenshot comparison. Please carefully compare the last two images:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1761844#post1761844

1) AdaptiveSharpen 1.5 with Anti-Bloating 100%
2) AdaptiveSharpen 0.5

If you compare these 2 images, do you really think they show a "similar end effect"? I sure hope not. To my eyes image 1) looks *significantly* better than image 2). It looks more detailed, more natural and more "in focus". Of course that's only my personal opinion. Do you disagree?

OK had more time to play around with it all today and as much as I enjoy the different strengths for SSIM, I hope they won't disappear for antibloat either please coz so far I've been really enjoying SSIM 2D 25% with a high level of anti-bloat as it's basically very detailed but not über-sharp/digital looking. 576*320@1080p never looked this good! Now to figure out who does what and what would be the best figure for SR & downscaling...and now that I think of it anti-bloat might be my antidote to SR's sheer sharpness w00t :devil:
I think it's safe to say that Anti-Bloating will stay, definitely for sharpening, most probably for SSIM downscaling. It may go for SuperRes, though. Whether or not I will keep making different Anti-Bloating values available I don't know yet. Depends on whether users converge on a similar "good" value or not.

Hi, I'm having a problem when I open 4k jpgs to test downscaling. madVR reports "creating upload textures failed" and it crashes.
Is it a new problem with v0.90.16? Or does this occur with all madVR builds? Which GPU and OS are you using? It's possible that your GPU simply doesn't allow allocating such big textures. Is your GPU very old, maybe?

New crispen edges is really good for real life content. I didn't actually like it at all before. Maybe some placebo there, but now it is my preferred sharpener. Anti-bloat seems great, although I had to see the example pictures to really see what it does. 100% seems to be a good default strength after short testing. With superres I get the feeling as if AB is just working against it. Probably wrong, but that's just my feeling. I cannot use more than SR@2 anyway without the GPU fan going crazy.
Yeah, not sure about SuperRes AB, either.

1. sharpen edges from image enhancements is great, and the anti bloating filter, as well as AR filter are amazing! I am using the strength of AB filter as 150% and I am extremely happy with the results.

2. Thanks a LOT for adding more space to edge thinning. It is wonderful! I will have a UHD screen in a few days, and tell you how it works with that, but with my actual screen, thin edges at 8 + sharpen edges at 4 + AR + AB 150% is the best setup I had ever seen. It is even much much better than it was before. Thanks again for adding this!

3. Crispen edges looks noisy with animated materials. But crispen edges + AR actually looks nice with real life materials.

4. Adaptive sharpen is noisy with either real life or animated videos.

5. Luma sharpen is pretty nice with real life materials, while it does not work with animated materials (I think that the design will never allow it to make anime better, as it actually improves the resolution and detail of real life materials, while this process adds noise to anime).

6. I would call anti bloating filter an amazing thing to have, though, I would try adding to it's strength even more.

7. I do not have any problems with any chroma upsampling filters though NNEDI3 is as slow as ever, and does not run, even in 16 Neurons fluidly with a mid-high end GTX860M. I think that there can be a bit of space for improvements on this part. About XBR, I personally like Jinc more. There are certain videos, where image is aliased (entire Railgun series, or some textures in Fate series), though I suspect that chroma upsampling does not have anything to do with this.

8. Chroma downscaling SSIM 2D + AR (only soft works) + Scale linear light + AB 150% is good, though it impacts rendering time quite a bit. I would say that it is a bit over-smooth, but I do not have big complaints with this. (1D is twice as fast for example).

9. For image upscaling, there should be better algorithms. For example, I would much rater have NNEDI for image upscaling than chroma, if it were possible, because I have a few videos where the image upscaling is more of a problem, especially due to aliasing than chroma upscaling. I am using jinc image upscaling + AR + sigmoidal light.

10. Upscaling refinement works great too, thanks for introducing more edge thinning. Anti bloat works great here too!
Thanks for the feedback. You seem to be a fan of extreme value (for edge thinning and anti-bloating at least)... :p

I don't know if it'll work for every video, but I'm really liking the look of AdaptiveSharpen 1.0 + anti-bloat (upscaling refinement) on this 720p -> 1080p upscale :) (applied after Nnedi64 doubling + 2-pass SuperRes + SSIM2D AR downscaling). Without anti-bloat AdaptiveSharpen looks weird, but the combination looks really natural, and sharpens things more than just using Crispen Edges. Anti-bloating doesn't seem to visibly affect SuperRes.
Which anti-bloating strength do you prefer? And other than that AdaptiveSharpen sharpens more than Crispen Edges, do you see a quality difference between the two?

Neat. That bloated look was always what kept me away from using other sharpeners than SuperRes.
However, with just SuperRes alone, Anti-Bloating seems not necessary to me.
Yes, I tend to agree.

I'm a big fan of the anti bloating. It is great!! Currently for 1080p content, I'm using crispen edges 1.0, Lumasharpen 1.0 and both anti bloating and anti ringing checked.
Glad to hear that!

I think I agree with this as well, need to look at some 4k downscaling rather than supersampled video to be sure.
I tried but I still have the same opinion as earlier. To my eyes, SSIM doesn’t have any bloating effect and so when anti-bloating is applied it’s thinning effect makes the images look kind of unnatural. Also SSIM has a characteristic look – crisp images with nice defined textures; that look goes away with anti-bloating. Having said that, I very much appreciate all the efforts that you put in providing new algorithms.
Anti-bloating seems to make downscaling with SSIM 2D 100% look like Catmull-ROM downscaling - softer, losing the very value of SSIM... It does look good when sharpening is applied first.

I'm more interested in whether SuperRes in Image Refinement looks better with new LL + AR settings enabled.
I'll post a screenshot comparison later, to maybe change your mind.

Subtitles now shift up instead of dropping off the screen with narrow windows when crop black bars is disabled and move subtitles is enabled.

When black bar detection is enabled but crop black bars is disabled, black bars still get cropped with short windows.
Is this followup from the JRiver thread? Do you have a link? I think there was a sample somewhere?

Does it only works after sharpening filters? Could it be use after Super-xBR to prevent bloating? Did you test it?
I'm not sure if it works (well) after upscaling. Maybe, maybe not. It's on my to do list to test.

[Mistar Muffin]

Is there a way to quickly toggle 3D mode? In many cases I only have the MVC copy ripped with MakeMKV when it is the same as the AVC copy when viewed in 2D. Inside Out is a example where I could not see a difference in the 2D disc and the 3D disc. I usually don't want to play back these files in stereo but occasionally do when the mood strikes. Is there a keyboard shortcut or anything that I am missing? This really isn't a "set it and forget it" setting IMO and should have a way to quickly toggle depending on the situation.

So glad to have a freeware solution for MVC. Thanks for all your work.

[ryrynz]

If you compare these 2 images, do you really think they show a "similar end effect"? I sure hope not. To my eyes image 1) looks *significantly* better than image 2). It looks more detailed, more natural and more "in focus". Of course that's only my personal opinion. Do you disagree?


I already did compare those and 0.5 was too high. Could you please upload AS @ 0.1, 0.2 & 0.3 for comparison? Thanks.

[leeperry]

I'm not sure if AR is needed for SuperRes, either.
I really don't think it is and my quick tests today didn't change my mind but I'll be running more tests as ideally AR and AB shouldn't be used in every section I think......too much of a good thing..

Out of the 3 places where you can use Anti-Bloating (sharpening, SuperRes and SSIM downscaling) you've picked the one where I think the benefit is most questionable. When I did a quick test with SuperRes Anti-Bloating myself, I wasn't sure myself whether I thought it was any good or not. While I'm very sure it's useful for both sharpening and SSIM downscaling (although some users seem to disagree in regards to SSIM).
I guess it's all a matter of not oversharpening upscaling and/or downscaling, trying to find a balance in order to avoid a sharpness/AB counterproductive process and SR is based on unsharp masking IIRC/AFAIC so it would make sense to (slightly) antibloat SR in order not to over-antibloat SSIM downscaling, but then again maybe it doesn't matter where exactly you antibloat hah and it might just be that the sharper the picture fed to SSIM the better, will be running more tests tomorrow.

[madshi]

Is there a way to quickly toggle 3D mode? In many cases I only have the MVC copy ripped with MakeMKV when it is the same as the AVC copy when viewed in 2D. Inside Out is a example where I could not see a difference in the 2D disc and the 3D disc (when viewed in 2D). I usually don't want to play back these files in stereo but occasionally do when the mood strikes. Is there a keyboard shortcut or anything that I am missing? This really isn't a "set it and forget it" setting IMO and should have a way to quickly toggle depending on the situation.
I suppose you could setup a profile which has 3D disabled and one which has it enabled in the madVR settings, and assign a keyboard shortcut to them.

I already did compare those and 0.5 was too high. Could you please upload AS @ 0.1, 0.2 & 0.3 for comparison? Thanks.
If you look e.g. at the trees at the top quarter of the image, the 0.5 screenshot is already much softer than the 1.5+AB screenshot. So how can an even lower value than 0.5 make the image get nearer to 1.5+AB?

Anyway, the screenshot comparison contains the original untouched frame, so it's easy enough for you to compare yourself with AS @ 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3.

[madshi]

SR is based on unsharp masking IIRC/AFAIC
Not at all, actually.

[fedpul]

Is it a new problem with v0.90.16? Or does this occur with all madVR builds? Which GPU and OS are you using? It's possible that your GPU simply doesn't allow allocating such big textures. Is your GPU very old, maybe?

Hi madshi. It is not a new problem, I have just tested 90.15 and it is present too. My GPU is a GTX 970 so I don't think it could be a GPU problem. I'm using Windows 7 SP1 up to date.

[leeperry]

Not at all, actually.
OK my bad, it's just that Shiandow said "Improve guess by: Softening the image, Subtracting differences with the original image, Sharpening" and it sure sounds/looks like unsharp masking to me :o

Anyway if AB makes sense to you for sharpening, I think it would also be useful for SR as SR is definitely sharpening but then again maybe it's pointless to AB both SSIM and SR.

[YxP]

Yeah, not sure about SuperRes AB, either.


Could you elaborate on your personal feelings what SR actually does? In a way I have always thought about it as a sort final picture enhancer that I can count on to make the picture to be closer to the so called ground truth, even if I may not see the effects every frame of every possible video. Of course I can see, especially on animated content, if it brings unwanted artifacts, but maybe on a sort of theoretical level? For example, do you use it always at some strength? And yes, I have read the technical explanation.

[edit]

My point here being, what are the enhancements SR really requires for it to be better?

[RainyDog]

Thanks for all the great new updates madshi.

One thing I've noticed is that anti-bloating has a positive effect on reigning in the brightness boosting of adaptive sharpen. On a black level setting test pattern, adaptive sharpen by itself reveals IRE 16 on a properly calibrated display. But with anti-bloating enabled the image is slightly darker so only 17 and above flash which is how it should be of course.

Adaptive sharpen plus anti-bloating is looking like it might be a formidable combination actually. AS maxed out at 3.0 combined with 150% AB might even be viable you know... Though more testing is probably needed to confirm that before we get too carried away :)

[ryrynz]

If you look e.g. at the trees at the top quarter of the image, the 0.5 screenshot is already much softer than the 1.5+AB screenshot. So how can an even lower value than 0.5 make the image get nearer to 1.5+AB?

Anyway, the screenshot comparison contains the original untouched frame, so it's easy enough for you to compare yourself with AS @ 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3.

I think you're getting mixed up or something is wrong, because AS5.png (AS 0.5) is clearly sharper than AS15_AB100.png

Regarding anti-bloating with SSIM 2D @ 100% I think I'd prefer to keep it disabled. I could understand people perhaps wanting to enable 25 or 50% though.. beyond that you're getting similar results to just running SSIM at lower values. High frequency stuff is nice to a point. SO while I may not be using it I can see where it might be considered useful.

[Georgel]

Yeah, extreme values on edge thinning and edge sharpening and anti bloat work especially well with anime. VERY GOOD.

With real life content, the final image is a bit over-smooth, and these values are not the best defaults when watching a movie or a video with people. But with anime, it is like those algorithms redefine all the qualities of the image.

Those algorithms have more value than 4K has on games these days.

Then again, maybe most madVR users use a bit lower values, but I showed madVR to other anime fans, and all of them started using madVR the next moment for all anime. This all have become a golden thing after edge thinning has been introduced.

Thanks!

[fedpul]

Hi madshi. It is not a new problem, I have just tested 90.15 and it is present too. My GPU is a GTX 970 so I don't think it could be a GPU problem. I'm using Windows 7 SP1 up to date.

I found the problem, big queues again. Reset settings to default and then I start changing settings one to one and the crash was caused by the queues being set to max. It works well at default settings. Sorry for the report.

[AngelGraves13]

So what does anti-bloating actually do?

UPDATE: Blurs to prevent over sharpening. OK. Pretty hard to spot anyway.

[ryrynz]

Yeah, extreme values on edge thinning and edge sharpening and anti bloat work especially well with anime. VERY GOOD.


While it affects lines well for anime it's an edge thinner so it works on a lot of background elements you wouldn't want sharpened. I notice it especially on already thin things like bridge ropes etc.
This is why I have it working in tandem with Awarpsharp2 and line darkening in Avisynth, high level line thinning in anime can look pretty unnatural (super sharp & thin on some things and not on others)
Until we get line thinning/darkening it's the best we've got in madVR, just look at more than just the thick lines before you settle on a edge thinning value.

So what does anti-bloating actually do?

Should read madshi's posts..



2) The new anti-bloating tries to concentrate sharpening on higher frequencies and to remove lower frequencies. I like the look that produces, but your mileage may vary.


In other words, is softening certain high frequency elements of the picture. Basically removing that over sharpened or over processed look.

[xul]

Instead of saying you have the same problem, can you please describe your own problem in detail? And if it depends on the madVR version, could you please try to find out which exact madVR version introduced the problem for you? You can find all old madVR builds for download here:

http://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions#download

Yes, sorry madshi, in my case I think it was a "false alarm" as I was experimenting with various settings (LAV and madvr) to find which is the best for my configuration (Q9650@3,6ghz gtx970 MPC-HC x64) and I guess that I had NNEDI3 img doubing / supersampling which killed the performance..thats it.. now I'm using these settings and everything is smooth with great picture quality and no dropped frames during playback (using mostly 1080p contents on a 1920x1200 res monitor)...

LAV Video:
DXVA2 copy-back GTX970 / Random dithering / No software deinterlacing

madvr:
chroma: super-xbr 100 AR SuperRes@3
img downscaling: SSIM 2D@100% AR LL
img doubling: double luma & chroma / always - if upscaling is needed / super-xbr@100
img upscaling: Jinc AR
upscaling refinement: SuperRes@1 LL AR / refine img only once...

artifact removal: medium / high

smooth motion off
dithering ED 1 / colored noise / change dither for every frame
trade quality.. all unchecked

Do you think these settings I'm using are fine for my configuration? As I'm no expert, answers and suggestions from anybody are welcome....Thanks

[Warner306]

Post removed. New comparison added in a latter post.

[ryrynz]

Does anti-bloating not make the image appear more natural?


I think so, but this does depending on the strength of the sharpening wand you're applying to the image.


Perhaps the strength used for anti-bloating could be reduced slightly to reduce some of the blurring?

Just use 75/50/25?

[JarrettH]

b) Do you consider the anti-bloating and anti-ringing options useful for SuperRes? I think anti-bloating might not be beneficial here, but I'd like to hear your opinion. Do you see any benefit in the anti-ringing option? SuperRes already didn't ring that much, so I wonder if the separate anti-ringing post processing option is worthwhile in your opinion or not?

Nope, not either. SuperRes is different in that it digs into the picture and brings out real detail. I can't speak for the other refinements, but what SuperRes does puts it in a class of its own.

[Warner306]

b) Do you consider the anti-bloating and anti-ringing options useful for SuperRes? I think anti-bloating might not be beneficial here, but I'd like to hear your opinion. Do you see any benefit in the anti-ringing option? SuperRes already didn't ring that much, so I wonder if the separate anti-ringing post processing option is worthwhile in your opinion or not?

Nope, not either. SuperRes is different in that it digs into the picture and brings out real detail. I can't speak for the other refinements, but what SuperRes does puts it in a class of its own.

Did you look at the image comparison two posts above? SuperRes can be harsh at high values and there is the potential to oversharpen.

I think there is a level of anti-bloating that might be beneficial.

[JarrettH]

Yeah, I checked those out. It seems to deaden the picture and take some of the all important catch light out of the eyes. I only use a value of 3 myself. Anyway, it will be adjustable what ever madshi decides

[Mano]

just a note if someone is wondering 16.3 crimson amd creates random flicker horizon lines (the kind like in the horror movie effect) while playing video with madvr.

[QBhd]

just a note if someone is wondering 16.3 crimson amd creates random flicker horizon lines (the kind like in the horror movie effect) while playing video with madvr.

Indeed... I noticed this, and took some screens shots. For me it was only when crispen edges was enabled. However, when I looked at the screen shots the effect was not there. I never thought any further of it, but yes... I guess it would be a driver related issue.

I know of one scene in The Big Short where it happens, if I have time I will track down which driver introduced this.

QB

[Georgel]

While it affects lines well for anime it's an edge thinner so it works on a lot of background elements you wouldn't want sharpened. I notice it especially on already thin things like bridge ropes etc.
This is why I have it working in tandem with Awarpsharp2 and line darkening in Avisynth, high level line thinning in anime can look pretty unnatural (super sharp & thin on some things and not on others)
Until we get line thinning/darkening it's the best we've got in madVR, just look at more than just the thick lines before you settle on a edge thinning value.



Edge thinning works very good with high values of edge sharpening.

Edge thinning alone would make things too thin.

I like the effects of ET 8 + ES 4 + AB150 + AR on both background and foreground elements.

Though too much edge thinning might change the meaning of some scenes, it is worth it. Especially where are lots of thick black lines. But it improves more!

[Wolfy59]

Hi and thanks for the work you do here. Does someone has an AMD R9 380 nitro oc 4 go and have lot of lags and drop frames when super res x2 anti bloating and AR are activated ?

[Georgel]

How do we use profiles?

I am still having a hard time understanding where to start.

[ryrynz]

How do we use profiles?


Good place to start.

https://imouto.my/tutorials/madvr/

[huhn]

Edge thinning works very good with high values of edge sharpening.

Edge thinning alone would make things too thin.

I like the effects of ET 8 + ES 4 + AB150 + AR on both background and foreground elements.

Though too much edge thinning might change the meaning of some scenes, it is worth it. Especially where are lots of thick black lines. But it improves more!

it is deforming, aliasing and it removes details.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166725

it can be way way more harmful then this BTW.

but as you pleases.

[ryrynz]

it is deforming, aliasing and it removes details.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166725
it can be way way more harmful then this BTW.


Nice example, that's pretty bad. Are you using 8.0 after upscaling is complete? I find line thinning should only ever be used with that option. After every 2x upscale deforms lines too much.

I find even 4.0 is actually too high for anime but it works beautifully on just thick lines though, but too many unwanted side effects, hence why I keep it at ~2.0 + Awarpsharp.

I certainly would not use high values on 1080 content. Works quite well on 480-720 though.

[huhn]

it's not scaled at all.

even 2.0 with a 2x scaling is starting to deform.
of cause it looks kind of perfect compared to 8.0.

i personally wouldn't go over 0.5 on FHD and 1.0 on UHD(ok UHD is hard to judge).

but like always i don't like to change the picture. so nothing new.

[Georgel]

it is deforming, aliasing and it removes details.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166725

it can be way way more harmful then this BTW.

but as you pleases.

Why does the example deform so much? It is way different from all results I am getting.

I think that it is better for many anime out there.

Why did it induce aliasing for you? On my setup it eliminates any aliasing that was there before. I am confused.

There are very few anime that are 1080 natural, most are lower resolution, even if they are encoded to 1080.