madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[nevcairiel]

you can switch the display manually to HDR mode even if the source doesn't support HDMI 2.0a.

HEVC HDR encodes include extra metadata that is required to properly interpret the image, without this its not possible to show it properly.
The display needs to get this metadata from the player somehow, otherwise all bets are off. If you want to somehow manually do that through external hardware, go nuts, but thats hardly relevant for madVR at this point.

Also, that still leaves the problem that I seriously doubt HDR is meant to be transferred over RGB, as there is a distinctly different conversion from YUV/YCbCr to RGB for HDR content, and any RGB converted without this would already be mangled and damaged.

A PC cannot output content "untouched", since PCs cannot output YCbCr as-is through consumer hardware/software.

[madshi]

FWIW, I'm working on HDR playback as we speak. However, madVR will convert the content to use a normal gamma transfer function. I expect final quality to be better this way than sending the HDR content untouched to the display and letting the display do all the processing.

[Manni]

FWIW, I'm working on HDR playback as we speak. However, madVR will convert the content to use a normal gamma transfer function. I expect final quality to be better this way than sending the HDR content untouched to the display and letting the display do all the processing.

Thanks for this bit of hope! :)

Will we get the option to use PQ gamma, or will this be a fixed setting in MadVR?

Any idea when we might be able to test this?

Which GPU/Driver/MadVR settings will you recommend re pixel format / levels?

Let me know if you'd like me to beta test, I should have an X7000 in the next few weeks.

Does this mean you're going to implement HDR support in MadTPG for calibration as well? That would be great!

[nevcairiel]

FWIW, I'm working on HDR playback as we speak. However, madVR will convert the content to use a normal gamma transfer function. I expect final quality to be better this way than sending the HDR content untouched to the display and letting the display do all the processing.

Couldn't high-end displays do backlight trickery to achieve a much higher contrast/dynamic range when they have all the information?
I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like something that might happen.

[James Freeman]

Madshi are you using the HDR clips Manni provided as reference?
So the HDR metadata is inside the MP4 file and this is what we might expect in the future 10bit, 4:2:0, rec2020, 3840x2160, HEVC?

EDIT:
Playing a little with the HDR demos of Exodus and PI I can get a decent image setting the black level to -30 or so.
It is probably too early to say but if I'd have to guess, I think that these particular demos are just expanded versions of the original and not scene by scene mastered.
The blacks of the content seem to be somewhere in the middle of the range, but what about the lower range?

How the HEVC HDR encoding utilizes the 10bit to distribute the shades and how the TV knows to decode that and engage certain light zones in certain brightness is still a mystery...
What is the difference between the two versions of the same video on that site? One is called "Dynamic Mode"?
Hmmm...

One thing is for certain, all the shadow detail is preserved because it is in the middle of the range unlike in a blu-ray where it is the lowest and first few steps and are blocky.
Together with the high bitrate this creates a very beautiful picture and many times smoother than a standard Bluray.

After Madshi will do his magic on the new format, even people with standard 1080p rec.709 monitors will see a clearly better picture.

[Uoppi]

Hm, my 5 year old TV reports 23p,24p,25p,29p,59p,60p and couple of other interlaced resolution via at least 1 hdmi port. And madVR can correctly switch between them.

Same with my both Samsungs (and 30p support listed and tested too).

So how would I go about checking if the 25 Hz is true/native 25 Hz? This is the first time I've heard that 25 Hz might actually be 50 Hz. I don't understand why the TV would report 25 Hz refresh rate if it's actually in 50 Hz mode.

EDIT: From the TV's manual (under "Supported Video Resolutions"):
1920 x 1080 - Display Format: 25Hz, Horizontal Frequency (KHz): 28.125, Vertical Frequency (Hz): 25.000, Clock Frequency (MHz): 74.250
Don't know if the above means "true" 25 Hz or not?

[Thunderbolt8]

Reports if 50 or 25 Hz can vary on how interlacing is detected and if deinterlacing is activated automatically. Better check this manually, AFAIK it cannot be entirely perfect in all cases.

[Razoola]

Couldn't high-end displays do backlight trickery to achieve a much higher contrast/dynamic range when they have all the information?
I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like something that might happen.

Philips tried that with the 9703 range a few years back. The problem is it causes flashes of color in the picture when there is motion. Those who know what the rainbow effect is that some people could see on plasmas will know what Im talking about... Its just like that but only stronger.

edit....

http://www.appliancedesign.com/articles/88305-researchers-produce-lcd-with-wider-color-gamut-without-reducing-brightness-9-19

see above url for a little info on the spec.

[DragonQ]

Oh, I thought almost all current TVs do?

Windows reports both my Samsung TVs from 2008 and 2014 as supporting 25 Hz, but it's not necessarily "true" 25 Hz then? :scared: The TVs' info OSD also says 25 Hz and the manual lists 25 Hz as a supported refresh rate.
I wasn't talking about what the TV supports or will accept, I'm talking about what the TV will display. As nevcairiel says, "25 Hz" input is likely for interlaced but even if you could send your TV 25p content, it'll display it at at least 50 Hz. Likely more, especially if it's a plasma (mine does 100 Hz for 25/50p and 96 Hz for 24p).

[chros]

Same with my both Samsungs (and 30p support listed and tested too).
So how would I go about checking if the 25 Hz is true/native 25 Hz?
Don't know if the above means "true" 25 Hz or not?
There was a long debate about this on avsforum, and the result was truly confusing.
We use our TV driven by PC so it acts like a monitor if you set it up like this, means you turn off every image processing feature that could modify frames. With my LG means: I have to set scan mode, turn off TruMOtion and turn on (!) RealCinema (it's for 24p content, don't ask why they distinguished it).
I wasn't talking about what the TV supports or will accept, I'm talking about what the TV will display. As nevcairiel says, "25 Hz" input is likely for interlaced but even if you could send your TV 25p content, it'll display it at at least 50 Hz.
And they discussed what could happen when you set TruMotion on how it would affect frames.
I have 1 problem about this version of the story: my LG is EU version, so it's officially 100Hz (probably it refers to an 50fps content and using TruMotion with it.)
But: what would happen with a 23.976 fps content with it? You'll never get 50Hz, neither 100. So will it use 48??? (They states that it'll use 120Hz with the US version.)
Either way, I think it doesn't matter if the frames are exactly doubled or tripled, we will get continous movement with it, without stuttering and there won't happen any deinterlacing on our TV.
This is how I understand it.

[Uoppi]

I wasn't talking about what the TV supports or will accept, I'm talking about what the TV will display.

OK. So if displays only rarely output true 25 Hz, I could just as well omit 25p from madVR's supported refresh rates list, right (because it will be 50 Hz anyway)?

Just wondering, if the TV specs say "Display Format: 25Hz ... Vertical Frequency (Hz): 25.000", shouldn't it be "50.000" instead then?

Anyway, I just realized 29 Hz and 59 Hz are not listed for my TV after all, so I'll need to delete them from madVR's refresh rate list.

[chros]

Anyway, I just realized 29 Hz and 59 Hz are not listed for my TV after all, so I'll need to delete them from madVR's refresh rate list.
Listed where? In the manual or in you display driver settings?

[garson]

Hello.
I'm having strange issue I guess with MadVR.
I have latest MPC-HC 1.7.10, latest MadVR, Lav filders, running on XP. I have a lot of dropped frames on dark/black scenes with not much going on.
So, for example I'm watching Hobbit 720p (8GB mkv file) and everything is pretty much smooth but when movie finishes and Cast of characters scene starts there is a lot of stuttering and dropped frames.
Also, I watched movie Circle (2015) which takes place in dark room with several persons in it, not much going on there, but I got a lot of dropped frames again, movie is barely watchable.

Does anybody now what can be the issue with dark (and slow) scenes?

[digitech]

Just added this profile to MadVR and i want to know guys if you think if it's correct. I just want to have 3 options in MadVR scaler options
1-SD (files lower than 720p),
2-HD (files up than 719p and lower of 1080p) and
3-FULLHD (files up than 1019p)

I want these three options for all video files playback, do you think that with the next arguments i'd be able to achieve what i want

if (srcHeight < 720) "SD"
else if ((fileName = "*720p*") or (srcHeight > 719)) and (srcWidth < 1080) "HD"
else if ((fileName = "*1080p*") or (srcHeight > 1079)) "FULLHD"

[Uoppi]

Listed where? In the manual or in you display driver settings?

Ah, good point - only in the manual.

Display driver however lists them all and that's where I initially copied them from into madVR. I guess I should leave the setting untouched then.

(Seems like the manual lists refresh rates the TV can actually display at, while the display driver lists input rates that the TV can accept. Right?)

[Vyral]

Hello.
I'm having strange issue I guess with MadVR.
I have latest MPC-HC 1.7.10, latest MadVR, Lav filders, running on XP. I have a lot of dropped frames on dark/black scenes with not much going on.
So, for example I'm watching Hobbit 720p (8GB mkv file) and everything is pretty much smooth but when movie finishes and Cast of characters scene starts there is a lot of stuttering and dropped frames.
Also, I watched movie Circle (2015) which takes place in dark room with several persons in it, not much going on there, but I got a lot of dropped frames again, movie is barely watchable.

Does anybody now what can be the issue with dark (and slow) scenes?

Is the option "don't rerender frames when fade in/fade out is detected" checked in the ‘rendering —> trade quality for performance’ section ? You should test it with this option checked and see if it helps.

[huhn]

Ah, good point - only in the manual.

Display driver however lists them all and that's where I initially copied them from into madVR. I guess I should leave the setting untouched then.

(Seems like the manual lists refresh rates the TV can actually display at, while the display driver lists input rates that the TV can accept. Right?)

a TV is clearly not displaying 23 hz material at 24 hz.

in the end the TV has to display the frame it get at the time they get them and this timing is changing from GPU to GPU.

[chros]

Display driver however lists them all and that's where I initially copied them from into madVR. I guess I should leave the setting untouched then.
As huhhn said, it can vary: e.g. I removed 23p and 29p and 59p from the list in madvr because these modes gave me less HZ than the corresponding video material should have (you can't create proper clocks with Ivy Bridge) and that would result frame drops. I just prefer repeated frames instead with 24p/25p/30p/60p settings.

[Dreamland]

Any issue with latest driver beta AMD Crimson 15.11.1 and MadVR?
(my grafic card is R9 380 on win 8.1 )
thx a lot

[aufkrawall]

There are many bug reports regarding Crimson drivers.
I'd probably wait for a better one.

[GCRaistlin]

Does the "Error Diffusion - option 1/2" work on DX11 GPU under WinXP?

[nevcairiel]

Does the "Error Diffusion - option 1/2" work on DX11 GPU under WinXP?

No, DX11 features are not available on XP.

[Georgel]

Is anyone able to read my crash log file and explain to me what happens? I reinstalled video drivers, windows, apps, formatted, and tried about every single solution I thought of, and with no luck so far.

15166

I am sure that I missed something, but setting up MPC-HC with madVR really made me curious what?

Also, what is the best software intended to be used with madVR? I mean, MPC-HC, or something else? (I had more frequent crashes using PotPlayer with external LAV than MPC-HC with internal LAV filters)

[GCRaistlin]

How do I know that image doubling is activated? I enabled it in settings but OSD still says: "chroma > Jinc AR / image > Jinc AR".

[GCRaistlin]

madshi
Last example in http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271417#post1271417 contains "srcAR" value name while there's no such value name in syntax description above.

[huhn]

How do I know that image doubling is activated? I enabled it in settings but OSD still says: "chroma > Jinc AR / image > Jinc AR".

you should see it in the OSD so it isn't used currently.

nnedi3 may not work under XP in general. not sure right now.

[aufkrawall]

Yes, support for it has been dropped with using OCL D3D11 interop.

[GCRaistlin]

Asmodian
Worth to add a note about:
support for it has been dropped with using OCL D3D11 interop
to "madVR Options Explained"

[Asmodian]

Thanks, added. :)

[QBhd]

Any issue with latest driver beta AMD Crimson 15.11.1 and MadVR?
(my grafic card is R9 380 on win 8.1 )
thx a lot

Zero Problems with Crimson on my Win 8.1 with a R9 270X.

In fact I have improved performance using the new Custom Resolutions and setting up my 60, 72 and 75 Hz refresh rates. As an example I can get my Plasma (circa 2007) to refresh at 72.000x (as reported by madVR ctrl-J) which is pretty damn near 72Hz... pair that with ReClock and things are super smooth.

QB

[Siso]

A question maybe offtopic, I bought X-Rite colormunki, and I was wondering about something, when I calibrate the monitor via dispcal gui and argyll: 2.2 gamma etc. after the calibration is complete, I want to make a 3dlut for madvr (rec 1886, 2.4 gamma). It will be based on the created calibrated profile (icm) by dispcal gui, right? Or I'll have to make the whole calibration again for madvr exclusive only etc. another icm profile and 3dlut?

[huhn]

i would create a new one but the old ICM should work too.

[Siso]

i would create a new one but the old ICM should work too.

Will try that, thank you for your answer :)

[chros]

A question maybe offtopic, I bought X-Rite colormunki, and I was wondering about something, when I calibrate the monitor via dispcal gui and argyll: 2.2 gamma etc. after the calibration is complete, I want to make a 3dlut for madvr (rec 1886, 2.4 gamma). It will be based on the created calibrated profile (icm) by dispcal gui, right? Or I'll have to make the whole calibration again for madvr exclusive only etc. another icm profile and 3dlut?
Just jump over here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172783
Short version: I'm not sure, since dispalGUI may use different switches in the whole progress than you might have been using. I think it's safe to go through the whole process.

[Manni]

Any issue with latest driver beta AMD Crimson 15.11.1 and MadVR?
(my grafic card is R9 380 on win 8.1 )
thx a lot

There is no issue with MadVR itself in Crimson 15.1.1. (at least here and for now).

The only issue is indirect. Because AMD have taken out access to a lot of options in Crimson compared to Catalyst, it's not possible to select the dynamic range applied to other apps in the driver itself.

This setting has no effect on MadVR, but of course you need to get it to match the levels in MadVR to get correct levels with both MadVR and other software if you use any, for example PowerDVD15 for 3D Bluray and full BD Menus.

While in Catalyst, you could select PC Levels (0-255) or Video levels (16-235) independently of the pixel format setting (RGB Limited or RGB Full), now in Crimson this setting follows the pixel format settings.

The good thing is that Crimson fixes a long standing bug that used to cause levels issues with other software, for example for PDVD the levels were correct in 2D but incorrect in 3D. Now the levels are always correct.

This means that you might have to adjust your display settings to get the correct levels for all applications, compared to what you used to do with Catalyst.

For example, I used to have RGB Full, dynamic range set to 0-255 in the driver (due to catalyst bug now solved in Crimson), MadVR set to 16-235 and my JVC projector set to HDMI standard (16-235).

Now I keep the GPU set to RGB Full for best results in MadVR, MadVR is set to 0-255 and I have to set my JVC to HDMI enhanced to get the correct levels for both PDVD and MadVR as it's not possible to set the dynamic range for non-MadVR apps in the driver anymore.

I tried to use the RadeonMod utility to change the dynamic range in the driver, but it doesn't seem to work with my AMD7870, so it looks like I'll have to use HDMI enhanced unless the RadeonMod works for the R9 Fury that I'm getting this week.

Apart from this, no significant differences. It's probably a better way to do it, but for various reasons video levels works better for me in my set-up, hence why I was using it.

Of course none of this matters if you only use MadVR, but I thought it might be useful to share this.

The other great thing about Crimson is that it will be needed to support the Club3D DisplayPort 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 active adapter, which should be available in a few weeks and will give HDMI 2.0 with full 18gb/s bandwidth and HDCP 2.2 support to AMD boards. If only for this, it's highly recommended!

Finally Crimson seems to be solving for me a lot of instability with any driver more recent than Catalyst 14.12, for example I used to have MPC-BE crashing at launch with any recent catalyst. This seems to be gone for good with Crimson.

So overall, at least in my setup, a recommended upgrade.

[chros]

It's probably a better way to do it, but for various reasons video levels works better for me in my set-up, hence why I was using it.
Hhmm... In which way? In madvr as well?
Maybe I'll also try out that config: iGPU to full-range, Madvr to video-levels, TV to high black-level :)

I'm asking because yesterday I found out by accident what was the cause of my black crush.
Original setup: Intel drivers at default (it turned out it means limited RGB range via HDMI), madvr at PC-levels, TV is at low black-level setting. Result: bar 17 is missing from the black-level test video. (And the same happened (the last bar was clipped) but with the whites if you would set madvr to Video-level and the TV to high black-level.)
Correct setup: full-range hack applied to Intel, madvr at PC-levels, TV is at high black-level setting. Result: there's no clipping at all.
That means Intel driver color range conversion is faulty.

Edit: When you apply the fullRGB hack it applies to both displays with my system and it doesn't fix the black crush with the display of the laptop.

[Manni]

Hhmm... In which way? In madvr as well?


It's probably a better way for MadVR to have the GPU set to RGB Full, MadVR set to 0-255 and the display set to HDMI enhanced because there is no risk of level compression, it's the same levels everywhere. I'm not an expert in this so I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong.

I prefer GPU to RGB Full and MadVR to 16-235 as well as display set to HDMI standard because it means that I can have the same settings in the display for all my sources (which are mostly video sources outputting video levels). Otherwise I have to switch HDMI settings every time I switch from the HTPC to another source (nothing that iRule can't handle gracefully). Also it might also be better for MadVR 3D LUT calibration with Calman, which expects video levels. I'm going to try with HDMI enhanced and see if it causes any issue with the calibration process.

If it doesn't, I'll stick to RGB Full, MadVR 0-255 and HDMI enhanced, if it does I'll have to try something else, maybe YCB 4:4:4, which might also be better for HDR anyway.

[Dreamland]

thanks so much for great report! i use Madvr + MPC-HC+Lav
and now i know can't have issue with latest Crimson

[Siso]

Just jump over here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172783
Short version: I'm not sure, since dispalGUI may use different switches in the whole progress than you might have been using. I think it's safe to go through the whole process.

Sounds somehow complicated...

[Uoppi]

When the madVR OSD reads "IVTC" even though the video is not telecined, what processing is madVR doing exactly? Only detecting cadence and nothing more? Or should "IVTC" only be displayed when the material is actually telecined, i.e. is it somehow detrimental to have it on "just in case"?

Is there an explanation somewhere what are all the things the "IVTC" processing might be doing depending on the material?
- Pulldown removal
- Frame skipping
- Only cadence detection if material is not telecined (?)
- Something else?

[nevcairiel]

When the madVR OSD reads "IVTC" even though the video is not telecined, what processing is madVR doing exactly?

It'll also tell you what cadence it detected, which is the more interesting piece of information.
Otherwise, if its says IVTC, it is actually doing something, since thats not a "source is telecined" marker, but actually indicates a processing step being performed.

[aufkrawall]

Not regarding the topic above:
Still no more problems to report with D3D11 windowed fullscreen mode on Windows 10 November build with Nvidia GPU. :)
I think it can be considered fixed by either Microsoft or Nvidia.

[Uoppi]

It'll also tell you what cadence it detected, which is the more interesting piece of information.
Otherwise, if its says IVTC, it is actually doing something, since thats not a "source is telecined" marker, but actually indicates a processing step being performed.

EDIT: Hmm, as the deint=Film tag screws up natively progressive 30 fps (displaying it at 24p), it seems you need to use exactly the right tags because "IVTC" can be forced on when it shouldn't be. However, my understanding is that as long as the frame rate is right and nothing looks choppy, I shouldn't worry if the OSD says "IVTC" - even when there's actually no telecine involved. Please, correct me if I'm mistaken, the terms can be kind of confusing.

How "intelligent" is the processing? Let's say, for example, if I have by accident placed a Blu-Ray rip in a folder that has the deint=Film tag, will madVR "know" what to do with the picture, i.e. to leave the source untouched (because it's native progressive)?

Just asking because I think I've sometimes seen the OSD say "IVTC" when I think it probably shouldn't have. But if it doesn't do any harm, I guess I'd better just ignore it.

[m-v-w]

Could Madvr support MPV (https://mpv.io/installation/)future?

[Warner306]

Could Madvr support MPV (https://mpv.io/installation/)future?

Pretty unlikely since MPV has been stealing madVR features and not providing credit.

[Uoppi]

Pretty unlikely since MPV has been stealing madVR features and not providing credit.

Hey, stealing without giving any credit is just part of the open source "philosophy" and "values" (things I learnt from the devs on the Kodi forum ;) )

[iSunrise]

...The other great thing about Crimson is that it will be needed to support the Club3D DisplayPort 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 active adapter, which should be available in a few weeks and will give HDMI 2.0 with full 18gb/s bandwidth and HDCP 2.2 support to AMD boards. If only for this, it's highly recommended!
If a graphics card does not support HDCP 2.2 within it's display engine already, a repeater cannot make it compatible, that's not what a repeater does.

So, unfortunately, this is only for products that already have HDCP 2.2 support.

[madshi]

Pretty unlikely since MPV has been stealing madVR features and not providing credit.
The word "stealing" is probably a bit harsh. It suggests something illegal which they didn't do. They did copy some ideas from madVR, including an algorithm I invented myself, without even mentioning madVR anywhere. But I suppose that's how the world works these days.

[chros]

But I suppose that's how the world works these days.
:( I think it's depends on the certain individual(s), and this mentality always existed.

[Manni]

If a graphics card does not support HDCP 2.2 within it's display engine already, a repeater cannot make it compatible, that's not what a repeater does.

So, unfortunately, this is only for products that already have HDCP 2.2 support.

1) This is not a repeater, it's a ACTIVE adapter. Club 3D does say they add HDCP 2.2 support, and AMD is said to support these with Crimson.
2) HDCP 2.2 is the least of our worries, first because there is no content using it from a PC, and second because the lack of it is already addressed by the HD Fury Integral and other HDMI tools. Frankly, I'm interested in getting 18Gb/s bandwidth than getting HDCP 2.2, which I don't care about one bit.