madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[yok833]

So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)? On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?

[secvensor]

On my screen
CRT 1600x1200@100MHz
smooth motion
is Absolutely doing viewing by the unpleasant.
Because of it the image twitches, as mad advancing a shot forward, back.

[dansrfe]

FRC causes frames to drop in windowed mode sometimes and the only fix is to resize the window.

[rahzel]

So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)?
Yes. FRC is for the people that don't have sets that properly handle 24p.
On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?
It doesn't really matter since you use ReClock, but use 23Hz instead. 23Hz is actually (more or less) 23.976, and 24Hz is actually 24. AMD/ATI cards are usually fairly close to 23.976, but some GPUs (Intel/Nvidia) require you to make custom resolutions to get close to (or sometimes right on) 23.976.
FRC causes frames to drop in windowed mode sometimes and the only fix is to resize the window.
I noticed the same thing. Seemed to be better with 0.86.1 though.

[olvidado]

What would be best settings to change for 2560x1440 ips monitor ?

[oddball]

It does. But I think he means that he switched his HTPC to 24Hz and had his VT50 set to 96Hz, but now he just uses 60Hz with FRC on. Even though my ST50 doesn't have a 96Hz option, it does accept 24p... I also used to switch to 24Hz, but now I just leave it at 60Hz with FRC on.

Outputting 24Hz with FRC on isn't the best setup for film... it's better to leave it at 60Hz. If your set can properly handle 24p (96Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz etc.,) it may be better to output 24Hz without FRC on. Outputting 60Hz from your PC and playing film with FRC on shouldn't cause any flickering vs having it off.

Yeah my Panny G20 plasma supports 96Hz internally (though it will always show 24Hz even if I output close to 23.976Hz from a custom res of Nvidia output). Which might be why it's smoother than 60Hz with FRC on.

[oddball]

So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)? On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?

From my understanding your TV is not actually doing 23Hz but taking the 23Hz signal from the HTPC and repeating the frames 4 times to get 96Hz. But it won't show that on the display it will just say 24Hz most likely or 24p mode.

[Qaq]

Tried FRC with 1080p23 and 720p23 video on 1080p60 display.
Good news, 24 picture is finally smooth (my TV does 24/60 pulldown) and my 7750 handles FRC/Jinc3 AR/linear light no problem and present time is still perfect (~1ms).
Bad news, picture looks a bit soft.
Hmmm... I guess I can buy it.
Bravo madshi!

[rahzel]

From my understanding your TV is not actually doing 23Hz but taking the 23Hz signal from the HTPC and repeating the frames 4 times to get 96Hz. But it won't show that on the display it will just say 24Hz most likely or 24p mode.
Ya, for sets that properly support 24p (ie have refresh rate that is an even multiple of 24) each of the ~24 frames will be displayed x amount of times per second. So if your set supports 24p, FRC isn't really necessary.

[Blight]

Madshi:
There are still out of order frames appearing in v0.86.1 both on seek and on regular playback when the GPU usage hits 100% (by sapping it with a separate GPU app like firefox with GPU accel enabled).

[pie1394]

Yeah my Panny G20 plasma supports 96Hz internally (though it will always show 24Hz even if I output close to 23.976Hz from a custom res of Nvidia output). Which might be why it's smoother than 60Hz with FRC on.

It is a different story about 48 / 72 / 96 Hz pixel driving on PDP if compared to CRT / LCD --- panasonic-2012-plasma-2500hz-ffd-explanation-attempt (http://paytherant.tumblr.com/post/20057368974/panasonic-2012-plasma-2500hz-ffd-explanation-attempt)

It is also the different design between Pioneer Kuro and Panasonic NeoPlasma although recent Panasonic's PDP has been integrated with some Kuro / ALiS panel's design.

The ST50 / GT50 / VT50 panels supports 3 different brightness per driving. 0% / 25% / 100%. So it can create even more color levels than the older X50 / U50 600Hz driving one.

As I know, the Pioneer Kuro panel has the different mechanism to remove motion blur. Each pixel is actually divided into several spatial sub-pixel regions. If the pixel's color change is too big, it chooses the mode to display the color at the 1st temporal sub-pixel time. At other sub-pixel times, pixel is not displayed. The pixels with smaller temporal color difference, it still uses the regular driving mechanism to maintain best color accuracy and to prevent flicking.

[corporalgator]

I've come around: FRC is definitely where it's at. My display, though, does 60.00038hz once it settles in and I get 1 frame repeat every 41.74 seconds. No drops ever. Nothing I can change in reclock makes a difference. Is that how it is supposed to work?

[Qaq]

I get 1 frame repeat every 41.74 seconds. No drops ever. Nothing I can change in reclock makes a difference. Is that how it is supposed to work?
I guess not. I have hours in "frame repeat". 23 video on 60 display, ReClock/Auto(yellow) + FRC.

[madshi]

With your general FRC approach the blended frames are generated at irregular points in time, right? Wouldn't it be beneficial to have a fixed pattern like e.g. repetition, blend, repetition, blend, ... at least when using ReClock?
Irregular points in time? Not really...

A fixed pattern would work only for very specific circumstances. The madVR solution works for all situations.

Maybe I was a little oversensitive. Now in a non darkened room I don't really notice it anymore. I guess it's again a "broken source", maybe the effect just naturally increases a little with FRC.
Well, FRC should look good in a darkened room, too. If you find samples where FRC on looks noticeably worse than FRC off in a typical 23-25fps@60Hz situation, then please let me know.

I noticed that display mode changer still changes to 59.94Hz for 23.976fps videos even though FRC is set to be always enabled.
Wouldn't it make sense to change its logic that it doesn't change resolution with FRC?
No. If you don't want it to change resolution then disable the display mode changer. It makes no sense to disable this option behind the back of the user although he clearly has activated it.

You, sir, are a wizard and a messiah of HTPC world!
That's too high praise, but thanks nevertheless.

I see, thanks. But if rebooting doesn't solve the problem (without FSE) isn't there anything more we could do? Just in case.
Make sure Aero is turned on. If it is and you still have tearing, something is broken. Either the GPU or the GPU drivers or the OS. You could try installing a different GPU driver version. But this all doesn't really have much to do with madVR. Aero is not supposed to ever tear. If it does, then it can't be madVR's fault.

Is it possible to run the SmoothMotion madTestPatternSource at a user specified fps?

I tried just renaming one to SmoothMotion120.ytp as a test and it defaulted to 23p.

The other thing I was wondering, I ran 24p side by side with 60p in another player because I wanted to explain to someone the difference between having more source images vs smoothness etc...

But to my surprise the bars were not scrolling at the same speed. I'm guessing this was intentional/side effect of the implementation. It's probably not an easy switch, especially if you would have to generate different source material. But I might be helpful to have the different SmoothMotion test patterns moving at the same overall speed?
Custom fps is currently not supported. The same speed is impossible because 24.000 is by design faster than 23.976 and I can't correct for that because the test pattern can scroll only by full 1 pixel sizes minimum. If by same speed you mean the exact same test pattern, just running slower or faster based on fps, then yes, that would be possible, but I don't really see the big benefit. The test pattern runs slower for 50fps (and higher) because if I used the 23-25fps test pattern for 50-60fps, it would run crazy fast. Too fast too make sense. Also, the 50-60fps test pattern has the bottom two bands un-blurred, to allow testing for sharpness loss better. The 23-25fps pattern has all bands except for the lowest blurred, because otherwise there would have been stuttering due to the low fps.

Madshi is xy-vsfilter work still in progress for high def subs? Also is some form of motion compensation on the cards for the future? I'd like to see motion compensation with some form of control element to it (My TV's is one setting only and it's horrid).
xy-vsfilter is still in the works, AFAIK, but it's moving slower than I had hoped. No motion compensation planned at this point in time.

I do get more dropped frames with 0.86.1, smooth motion turned on, new exclusive mode.

Using "use a separate device for presentation", my render queue seems to get stuck on 0-3/8, and I get dropped frames all the time. If I pause the video, it goes to 0-8 / 8, but it quickly drops to 0-3 / 8 on playback.

Now, without "use a separate device for presentation", something very weird happens. The render queue stays on 5-6/8 on playback, but if I pause the video, click on Edit Settings on madVR preferences, click Ok without changing anything, and unpause the video...the render queue gets stuck on 0-3 / 8. If I just open the madVR preferences dialog and close it without clicking on Edit Settings, I don't have this issue.

Edit: Hm, the render queue does seem to get stuck on 0-3 after a while, even if I don't open the Edit Settings dialog. Opening it is however a sure way to trigger this.

On madVR 0.86, I don't have this issues, just out of order frames with "use a separate device for presentation" turned on and the present queue randomly going to zero when it is off.

Edit 2: Setting my flush settings to Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't and disabling "use separated device for presentation" seems to solve my issue on 0.86.1.
Well, if your render queue goes empty, that means that your GPU is simply not fast enough for the settings you've chosen. I've *had* to modify the flush settings to make the artifacts go away for frame blending. I didn't think it would harm performance, but if it does, there's really not much I can do about it. You can modify the flush settings, of course, but it could result in artifacts showing up again.

I noticed that with 0.86.1 I get continuous dropped frames on the SmoothMotion50 test file (60Hz monitor), but no dropped frames on the other SmoothMotion files.

With 0.86.0 I did not get any dropped frames, not even with the 50Hz test file.

So something changed for the worse with 0.86.1
The 50 test pattern is more demanding than the 23-25 test patterns, of course (twice as much work to do for madVR). The 59 and 60 test patterns probably run with smooth motion frc turned off on your PC, that's why they run without frame drops for you.

Been testing a few things. 23.976fps with smooth motion forced on at 24Hz causes a ghosting effect kind of like interlacing. 23.976fps at 60Hz causes flickering. You can especially notice it on scrolling end credits. Looks like it's no good for me and I may as well stick with 24Hz smooth motion off for now.
If your TV can do 24Hz well then there's no need to use smooth motion FRC.

Anyway, do you have the first "trade quality for performance" option unchecked? Please try that, it might reduce the flickering you're seeing with 24fps@60Hz. If you still see flickering with that option unchecked, please upload a sample for me to look at.

If I rapidly seek through the file with the right arrow button then madVR still freezes in exclusive mode but when it goes back to windowed mode it plays like normal. At that point if I try to fullscreen it back to exclusive mode I get a black screen and have to restart the file in order to use exclusive mode. This is with v0.86.1.
Yes, I can confirm that. I was only able to trigger it with FRC on though, FRC off still seems to behave like 0.85.8. Sometimes if it happens, it looks like an endless loop of 2 frames that are shown at the same time (endless flickering).
Where is the bug entry in the madVR bug tracker (with an attached zipped log file) for this? ;)

I need to ask about one thing.
If I use reclock should I check "slave reference clock to audio"? Or leave it unchecked. For best compatibility with madVR.
Depends on whether you get video drops/repeats with this option checked.

1) Have I need "smooth motion" frame rate changer (FRC) if I have 23.976fps movie with a 120hz display monitor?
If you can set your display to an even multiple of 23.976 then no, you don't need FRC.

4) in trade quality for performance, I have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" turn on by default, Must I turn off or not? (I have 570)
You should uncheck all those "trade quality" options, if your GPU is fast enough.

5) If I use 3:2 inverse telecine filter like decomb, smooth motion is it compatible or not?
Yes.

6) If I turn on smooth motion, in windows mode I have 48fps instead of 24 fps in movie (using fraps), is it normal?
Yes.

So if I understand well the best way to play a 23.976 fps movie if you have a good tv/pc, is to use reclock to switch at 24 fps and then set the tv at 96hz (of course if the tv acccept this frequency)? On my HD 6850 I also have a 23hz mode, is it another good option to play 23.976 content?
Not sure what you mean "use reclock to switch". Switch what? If your TV can do 23.976Hz or 95.904Hz (or 47.952Hz or 71.928Hz) well then yes, that's what you should use. Whether 23.976Hz or 95.904Hz is better to use with your TV nobody can say. Simply test it yourself and choose what looks better to your eyes.

On my screen
CRT 1600x1200@100MHz
smooth motion
is Absolutely doing viewing by the unpleasant.
Because of it the image twitches, as mad advancing a shot forward, back.
Your English is very hard to understand. If you have a CRT, it can probably do any refresh rate you want, can it not? If so, just set your CRT to use an even multiple of the source framerate and you don't need to use madVR's smooth motion frc.

FRC causes frames to drop in windowed mode sometimes and the only fix is to resize the window.
Are any of the queues going empty if that happens? Maybe your GPU is too slow? Maybe your queue size is too small? You've given me almost zero information to work with, so there's not much I can say here...

What would be best settings to change for 2560x1440 ips monitor ?
That's such a broad question that I don't know how to reply.

Madshi:
There are still out of order frames appearing in v0.86.1 both on seek and on regular playback when the GPU usage hits 100% (by sapping it with a separate GPU app like firefox with GPU accel enabled).
I can't reproduce that on a seek on my PC. Which GPU are you using? How about you other guys? Does any of you still have "out of order" frames when seeking with v0.86.1 with smooth motion frc activated? @Blight, are you using the default flush settings? (flush, flush & wait (sleep), don't, don't)?

I've come around: FRC is definitely where it's at. My display, though, does 60.00038hz once it settles in and I get 1 frame repeat every 41.74 seconds. No drops ever. Nothing I can change in reclock makes a difference. Is that how it is supposed to work?
Do you *actually* get frame drops reported in the OSD? The "1 frame repeat every ..." is just a rough estimate. The only thing that really counts is the "dropped frames" counter. That one really counts the number of frames actually dropped during playback.

FYI - for my testing I created a series of test patterns years ago - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1276064/1920x1080-24-25-30fps-test-patterns-detect-pulldown-issues
How is your post madVR related? Neither "madVR" nor "frc" nor "smooth motion" appear in your text at all. It seems to me you've just copy-pasted some old post of yours without taking the time to put it into any context. Please either remove your post, or at least make the effort to write some new text to describe what your post has to do with recent madVR topics. For example, if you think your test patterns would be useful for testing madVR's FRC, then please explain why and how, and maybe also report your own results when testing your patterns with madVR's FRC. Thanks.

[jmone]

No probs - deleted post. Will test more and repost in context if it adds value.

[Farfie]

I can't reproduce that on a seek on my PC. Which GPU are you using? How about you other guys? Does any of you still have "out of order" frames when seeking with v0.86.1 with smooth motion frc activated? @Blight, are you using the default flush settings? (flush, flush & wait (sleep), don't, don't)?

I can say it happens to me sometimes as well, but not nearly as much as 0.86.0
I've been playing with it to try to figure out if there's anything that makes it happen more often than not but I can't seem to find anything. All I know is that if I skip around long enough, it will happen eventually. But it might happen on the first skip, or it might take 10 skips after opening a file. It also doesn't seem to dance around between two frames for a few ms either anymore, it just shows 1 frame from.. somewhere, and then proceeds to play back normally. It's very non intrusive considering it rarely happens, and when it does, it's 1 frame (seemingly anyway).
This is with default flush settings, windowed mode.

[madshi]

No probs - deleted post. Will test more and repost in context if it adds value.
Thanks!

I can say it happens to me sometimes as well, but not nearly as much as 0.86.0
I've been playing with it to try to figure out if there's anything that makes it happen more often than not but I can't seem to find anything. All I know is that if I skip around long enough, it will happen eventually. But it might happen on the first skip, or it might take 10 skips after opening a file. It also doesn't seem to dance around between two frames for a few ms either anymore, it just shows 1 frame from.. somewhere, and then proceeds to play back normally. It's very non intrusive considering it rarely happens, and when it does, it's 1 frame (seemingly anyway).
This is with default flush settings, windowed mode.
Ah, I see. Problems which are hard to reproduce are always hard to fix... :(

[iSunrise]

Where is the bug entry in the madVR bug tracker (with an attached zipped log file) for this? ;)
It´s going to be very unspecific and I am not sure if that will help you too much to find the actual bug. It is extremely hard to trigger and I tried it with several movies for like 20 minutes. If I encounter it again I am going to make you the entry, make it as detailed as possible and attach a log, too. If you want me to make an entry, anyway, I am going to. No problem at all. Just wanted to confirm that something (seek dependant, doesn´t ever happen in pure playback) isn´t quite right in the code, which could also have an effect on other things.

Another thing, just to make you aware, because I am not sure that this is a bug, but rather an observation:

You wrote that with 0.86.1 you needed to modify the FRC code with an additional flush somewhere in the code if I understood you correctly. Is that change related to the custom 4 flush options or is that an additional flush that we don´t see/we can´t modify?

I am asking, because, when using FRC, you now have to (only if you´re not using the default flush settings) at least use one flush on the first 3 flush options or you´re going to have severe stuttering. If you don´t use FRC, "don´t flush" on every flush option works perfectly fine. 0.86.1 didn´t change anything in that regard, you still have to use a flush somewhere on the first 3 options. Since there´s no seperate flush settings for the FRC path to modify, using fully custom flush settings is not possible anymore when you´re also using FRC for some movies.

What I was asking myself:
Did you really need to modify the FRC path with an additional flush, when we still have to use one flush in the flush options, anyway for FRC to work correctly? Are you aware of that? Just to give you a heads up.

I can go into more detail if something is unclear or put that into the bug tracker if you want to.

[DragonQ]

So far 0.86.1 fixes all the problems I had with 0.86.

[Farfie]

Ah, I see. Problems which are hard to reproduce are always hard to fix... :(

Actually.. I spoke too soon. Before I was only trying 720p content, and now after trying 1080p, it is happening very often again.

But, when I said earlier in the thread where I was getting many framedrops without "use a separate device for presentation" enabled in 0.86.0, I can now disable it without getting framedrops (you must have fixed it). Along with confirming that fix, the seek bug seems to have completely gone away as well with "use a separate device for presentation" disabled. Perhaps this could be our culprit? I'm trying to watch as many types of content as I can, and I hate to speak too soon, but.. I can't help myself :devil:

[Dodgexander]

It should work fine on a 5570 if you don't set the scaling algorithms too high. You may want to check if the queues are all full. Also make sure the queues are not too small. Finally, try again with the next build.

Can I have a sample of that 25i content which doesn't look well for you?


Here (http://www.mediafire.com/?3mv49g6ne3kb9) are a couple of samples that show dropped frames for me. They aren't that great at showing the judder, but they do show dropped frames from the osd still. If you need more let me know, I can provide better examples of a 1080i 25 file.

It seems to be about 10 frames every second for 1080i and 576i. You'll notice with the HD sample at first there are no framedrops because its progressive, but as soon as the program starts it switches to interlaced and thats when they start.

Oh the other thing is, for live tv it doesn't work at all. Obvious judder.

EDIT

My fault, I had my cpu and gpu queue to low, when I raised it works fine.

I love this new feature, thanks Madshi. I tried SVP and it looked unnatural when watching sport, this however looks far more natural. You don't get that "it looks odd" feeling like I did with svp.

---

Now this is working for me with 1080i and 576i 25fps recordings, if anyone else is interested:) It is also working in mpc-hc for live dvb tv! How awesome is that!

So anyone who is having weird judder increase your queue sizes. It even fixes the windowed mode judder for me that other people have reported too!

[bugmen0t]

[...]
Edit 2: Setting my flush settings to Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't and disabling "use separated device for presentation" seems to solve my issue on 0.86.1.
Can you please verify: 'flush' & 'don't flush' for the last render step do the trick but 'flush & wait (sleep)' & 'flush & wait (loop)' don't.
What's the difference between 'flush' vs 'flush & wait'?

[pie1394]

If you have a CRT, it can probably do any refresh rate you want, can it not? If so, just set your CRT to use an even multiple of the source framerate and you don't need to use madVR's smooth motion frc.


I guess many people will still keep asking you if FRC should be turned on... How about some comments in this option to describe the case(s) it might be needed?

Just purchased a new bigger LCD TV (Sony KDL-65HX920) to replace my 5-years-old PDP TV (Hitachi P42A01A) in the living room. I noticed one thing. Its 24 Hz input signal's quick moving scene handling looks good after some TV settings are adjusted. Although it is not perfect and random quick motion blur could be still observed, at least I felt motion handling in HX920 is somewhat a little bit smoother than the P42A01A's 24p-to-60i FRC.

Another surprise is about the super-resolution function done by X-Reality PRO engine. Without it, even the HD video shown by 65HX920 looks flat, lack of scene depth or stereo feeling --- which Darbee box tries to improve for LCD. Such functionality is never claimed on the old Pioneer Kuro / Hitachi PDP. But the presented video on them always look vivid / nature.

[ikarad]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
6) If I turn on smooth motion, in windows mode I have 48fps instead of 24 fps in movie (using fraps), is it normal?
Yes..

Can you explain why?


Other thing.
I install filter of madvrtestpattern but all smoothmotionxx.ytp file make mpc-hc crash if I use ffdshow raw filter.

Only smallramp.ytp, colors.ytp and greyramp.ytp work with ffdshow raw filter.

[shimaflarex]

Can you please verify: 'flush' & 'don't flush' for the last render step do the trick but 'flush & wait (sleep)' & 'flush & wait (loop)' don't.
What's the difference between 'flush' vs 'flush & wait'?
Yes, that's it.
Tested on exclusive full screen mode, "smooth motion" on, "use a separated device for presentation" off :
Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't - Ok
Flush/Flush/Don't/Don't - Ok
Flush/Flush & wait(sleep)/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3
Flush/Flush & wait(loop)/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3

I don't really know what exactly is the difference between Flush and Flush & wait...what is it waiting?
Edit:
Flush & wait(sleep)/Don't/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3

Flush & wait seems the culprit lol

[Dodgexander]

I install filter of madvrtestpattern but all smoothmotionxx.ytp file make mpc-hc crash if I use ffdshow raw filter.

Only smallramp.ytp, colors.ytp and greyramp.ytp work with ffdshow raw filter.

Could you tell me where you found that test pattern? Its not included in the current release. If possible also upload it?

[dansrfe]

Are any of the queues going empty if that happens? Maybe your GPU is too slow? Maybe your queue size is too small? You've given me almost zero information to work with, so there's not much I can say here...

GTX 670, Windows 7. when I go from exclusive to windowed queue size goes to 0/4 and if I pause the video for 1-2 seconds then resume it fills up the queue then goes back to 0/4 after a couple of seconds. If I turn off FRC the queues fill up normally and the stuttering problem associated with rapid seeking goes away too.

[corporalgator]

Do you *actually* get frame drops reported in the OSD? The "1 frame repeat every ..." is just a rough estimate. The only thing that really counts is the "dropped frames" counter. That one really counts the number of frames actually dropped during playback.



Actually never. I thought repeats just weren't counted, so thanks for clarifying. If I start a movie in full screen, the dropped frames counter will stay at 0 the entire movie.

[ikarad]

Could you tell me where you found that test pattern? Its not included in the current release. If possible also upload it?

Here
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1616520&postcount=17517

[agustin9]

Yes, that's it.
Tested on exclusive full screen mode, "smooth motion" on, "use a separated device for presentation" off :
Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't - Ok
Flush/Flush/Don't/Don't - Ok
Flush/Flush & wait(sleep)/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3
Flush/Flush & wait(loop)/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3

I don't really know what exactly is the difference between Flush and Flush & wait...what is it waiting?
Edit:
Flush & wait(sleep)/Don't/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3

Flush & wait seems the culprit lol
Sounds like a gpu drivers problem

[shimaflarex]

Sounds like a gpu drivers problem
I am using the recently released Geforce 314.07 driver on W7 x64...

[Dodgexander]

Here
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1616520&postcount=17517

Thanks I was being an idiot.

Did you install using the bat file before trying to playback one of the patterns?

For I tested all of them and they are working fine.

Maybe re-download in case of a corruption?

[jmone]

(Cross Post from the JRiver forum)... Has anyone one used madshi's latest test patterns with JRiver MC18? http://madshi.net/madTestPatternSource.zip

The instructions are:
INSTALL: run install.bat (with admin rights!)
USAGE: drag one of the "*.ytp" files into your favorite media player

...but no luck so far for me (tried the old Windows Merit Based filter selection as well).

The ytp files don't seem to be recognised by MC.

Thanks
Nathan

[turbojet]

jmone: I don't have JRMC but I had the same sort of problem and unless madvrtestpatterns are on the system drive they won't install without adding @cd /d "%~dp0" to the install batch file, same goes with uninstall and activate debug. Wish madshi would fix this, have mentioned it a few times now.

shimaflarex: changing flush settings works for a while for me but eventually backbuffer goes back to 0. Increasing the queues and using separate device also alleviate the problem for awhile but eventually drops frames. Even changing a tab in chrome or firefox causes dropped frames with FRC on. Everything is fine with it off. I like FRC and appreciate madshi's time and effort on it but I will hold off until the frame drop issues with nvidia gpu's is solved before using it, going back to 310 drivers didn't change anything. GPU sits around 30% with 40% memory usage, CPU around 10%, 35% ram usage. A framedrop here and there is understandable and I don't notice it but at times there's 15-20 frames dropped and it's very noticeable. Don't know whether it's madvr or nvidia's responsibility to fix.

[shimaflarex]

shimaflarex: changing flush settings works for a while for me but eventually backbuffer goes back to 0. Increasing the queues and using separate device also alleviate the problem for awhile but eventually drops frames. Even changing a tab in chrome or firefox causes dropped frames with FRC on. Everything is fine with it off. I like FRC and appreciate madshi's time and effort on it but I will hold off until the frame drop issues with nvidia gpu's is solved before using it, going back to 310 drivers didn't change anything. GPU sits around 30% with 40% memory usage, CPU around 10%, 35% ram usage. A framedrop here and there is understandable and I don't notice it but at times there's 15-20 frames dropped and it's very noticeable. Don't know whether it's madvr or nvidia's responsibility to fix.

Hm, I've watched a 30 min video with no frame drops...actually, I forgot to check the OSD at the end of the video, but I didn't notice any framedrop. I didn't test much on windowed mode though...but it seems to be working fine. Did you try using those flush settings on new exclusive mode without using a separated device for presentation?

[Niyawa]

Make sure Aero is turned on. If it is and you still have tearing, something is broken. Either the GPU or the GPU drivers or the OS. You could try installing a different GPU driver version. But this all doesn't really have much to do with madVR. Aero is not supposed to ever tear. If it does, then it can't be madVR's fault.
Okay, got it. Thanks. The issue seems to have been gone with the little fellow too.

[tickled_pink]

Yes, that's it.
Tested on exclusive full screen mode, "smooth motion" on, "use a separated device for presentation" off :
Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't - Ok
Flush/Flush/Don't/Don't - Ok
Flush/Flush & wait(sleep)/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3
Flush/Flush & wait(loop)/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3

I don't really know what exactly is the difference between Flush and Flush & wait...what is it waiting?
Edit:
Flush & wait(sleep)/Don't/Don't/Don't - render queue stuck on 0-3

Flush & wait seems the culprit lol

I can confirm these results with Intel HD Graphics and AMD HD 6570. Both running up to date drivers. Render queue is 2-4 with Flush & sleep/loop and 7-8 with Flush only.

[DarK_MischieF]

madshi,

first off i want to thank you for your tireless work on madVR. it is an amazing product and has really opened my eyes to the complexity of video rendering. i have long followed your progress but have never contributed- in the light of your new release (0.86), however, i felt it would be a good time to start.

i have trouble with two scenarios, 60fps HD content, and smooth motion (but not when they are combined as my monitor is 60Hz).

1) 60fps HD content
frame drops- not too bad if full screen and if its the primary focus (about 6 drops in 1 minute of playback), otherwise very large (100 drops in 1 minute of playback)- can't seem to predict if it will be smooth or not. everything else looks okay except render queue seems to be one beind upload queue (9-10 / 10 vs 8-10 / 10). backbuffer occasionally drops to 0 then recovers.

2) smooth motion
frame drops- sometimes its good (<10 for extended playback), sometimes frame rates are severe. i think this is dependent on the content and the 'busi-ness' of the scene. most of my content is HD, blu-ray rips. i think my hardware is powerful enough so i feel that i must have some incorrect settings that is causing some kind of issue / bug. full screen exclusive performs better than windowed but has other disadvantages. windowed performs worse (sometimes compositon rate goes to 30Hz- rare and unpredictable), but offers more flexibility for placement.

settings
LAV VIDEO
no hardware decoding (have tried DXVA2 (copy-back) no change)
output formats: all but AYUV (4:4:4)

MADVR
devices-
8 bit, disable calibration controls, no display modes, pure power curve 2.20 gamma processing
no decoding, automatically activate deinterlacing when needed (if in doubt activate)
jinc 3 taps (anti ringing), jinc 3 taps (anti ringing), catmull-rom (anti ringing / scale in linear light)

rendering-
delay playback, use a seperate device, cpu queue 12, gpu queue 10
windowed mode, 8 backbuffer, flush, flush and wait (sleep), don't flush, don't flush
smooth motion- only if there would be motion judder without it
trade quality for performance- don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending

--------------

i have tried many variations of settings to improve performance but none of them seem to have a noticeable effect. i have set low buffer queues, high buffer queues and different scaling algorithims- perhaps this isn't where the bottleneck is?

ideally , i was hoping to get some more insight on the settings as i feel a little lost on why the performance is what it is. the 60fps issue has been there for as long as i can remember, the smooth motion was obviously only very recently.

thanks!

EDIT 2/24/2013
Windowed mode- Changed "after last render step" flush & wait (sleep) to flush improves dropped frames- backbuffers fall to 0 occasionaly still, but its alot better. render queue is still one behind upload queue.

[turbojet]

I was testing in windowed mode and had the same results as DarK_MischieF's edit, it's improved but not fixed. Confirmed it works well with FSE but I rarely use fullscreen on this computer, on another (broken) computer it's about all that's used. Using overlay keeps the backbuffer full in windowed mode and there's no frame drops but taskbar previews and multiple videos are nice to have for me at times. Hopefully empty backbuffers is a madvr issue this time as it's happening on intel, ati, and nvidia. Not many months ago nvidia had a backbuffer issue that took years for them to fix.

EDIT: After about 20 minutes backbuffers drop back to 0 quite often again using overlay.

[Dodgexander]

If you can change the flush settings and it works, what is the problem?

I don't have any of the problems mentioned with a Radeon HD6870 so sadly can't help out.

Maybe it's only related to certain gpu's

[andybkma]

Hi madshi, hate to bother you while you are working out the kinks with Smooth Motion but I was hoping I could sneak in a feature request whenever you get a chance.

Like many users of mVR I am sitting on my couch with just my mouse with no ready access to a keyboard (using my projector). As far as I know there is no way to bring up the "Debug OSD" (Ctrl+J) without a keyboard. Could you possibly add a way to turn that OSD on/off inside the settings of mVR with just the mouse? Like with a checkbox or something?

BTW, been using the Smooth Motion turned on the past coupla days and am really enjoying. Haven't had any blatant judder/motion problems that I can tell like other people have reported but then again I am not able to turn the Debug OSD on in order to actually tell if I am having such dropped frames problems. Perhaps ignorance is bliss haha (Note: just using HD4000 Ivy Bridge CPU graphics with Zoom Player, with a combo of LAV & ffdshow post processing with avisynth Limited Sharpen Faster)

[Dodgexander]

If you can change the flush settings and it works, what is the problem?

I don't have any of the problems mentioned with a Radeon HD6870 so sadly can't help out.

Maybe it's only related to certain gpu's

Okay I encountered this problem also. To fix it, I just lowered the upscaling and chroma upscaling from jinc 4 taps each to 3 taps each.

I guess this suggests that for lower gpu's might suffer from using the new motion compensation when also using scaling they were before. Perhaps you guys can try lowering the scaling settings to next to nothing to see if the problem goes away?

[DragonQ]

OK, changed my mind, both of the problems I experienced with 0.86 still exist with 0.86.1 (previous frame repeating when seeking sometimes, plus weird frame order randomly appearing and disappearing with interlaced content ). :(

[chros]

Sorry if this question is off topic, but I urgently (within 2 weeks) have to buy something new for me, because the laptop I'm currently using (see my signature for details) goes to my mom.

There was a really long discussion here a year ago, but I don't know the current hardware trend since then. So can you recommend a really good bargain "today"?

So I need:
- screen: 15,6" , fullhd
- chipset: intel, with HD4000 integrated VGA (at least it was good a year ago)
- vga: nvidia 6xx , with kepler core(?) (at least it was good a year ago) , I don't need the best GPU today.
- at least 8GB RAM
- hdd: big :)
- usb3.0
- hdmi out (audio and video)
- webcam, wifi

Thanks for helping!!!

[DragonQ]

Any i3/i5 Ivy Bridge CPU setup will last a long time. 8 GB of RAM makes sense due to RAM being so cheap now.

FYI, the Intel HD4000 can't handle Jinc with AR for everything in MadVR, so the best you can do is Bicubic75 AR / Lanczos3 AR / Catmull-Rom AR LL. I think you need an GTX 660 or better for Jinc3 AR, not sure about the mobile versions though.

[Dodgexander]

I did some further testing with my other, less powerful pc.

First of all, on both my pc's it seems any kind of dxva with smooth motion is a no go, presumably because the scaling+smooth motion takes up so much GPU usage as it is.

With my HD6870 system, I can run max Jinc3 upscaling and chroma upscaling with smooth motion. Without smooth motion jinc4 is possible with anti ringing filters on both.

With my HD5670 system, I can't run anything with smooth motion, otherwise like above (other people have reported) my rendering queue is always 0-3 despite everything being at low and all performance options included. This results in dropped frames and an unwatchable experience. This system however also has a slower CPU than my other. A 2.5ghz dual core wolfdale compared to a 4ghz dual core wolfdale. Without smooth motion it can manage only Jinc3 upscaling and spline3 chroma upscaling, anti ringing turned off.

Its clearly a performance issue, since during busy motion, the rendering queue will often drop all the way to zero, from being perhaps 1 before.

So is smooth motion just too demanding for lower end graphics cards?

[detmek]

Does it work better if you use FSE? Usually I have far less problems or no problems with FSE.

[Dodgexander]

Does it work better if you use FSE? Usually I have far less problems or no problems with FSE.

For me fse was a no go on my less powerful pc, all my testing was done using it on there. Tried with aero on and off also.

[joe42]

The 50 test pattern is more demanding than the 23-25 test patterns, of course (twice as much work to do for madVR). The 59 and 60 test patterns probably run with smooth motion frc turned off on your PC, that's why they run without frame drops for you.

With the 50Hz test pattern and FRC on, GPU is at 65% max, and CPU is much lower, so I'm not sure what is causing the frame drops.

But like I said, with 0.86.0 and the exact same settings, no frame drops. But with 0.86.1, continuous framedrops.

[chros]

Any i3/i5 Ivy Bridge CPU setup will last a long time. 8 GB of RAM makes sense due to RAM being so cheap now.

FYI, the Intel HD4000 can't handle Jinc with AR for everything in MadVR, so the best you can do is Bicubic75 AR / Lanczos3 AR / Catmull-Rom AR LL. I think you need an GTX 660 or better for Jinc3 AR, not sure about the mobile versions though.
Thanks for the answer!
What do you think about this? Lenovo Y580 with GTX660 (http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Y580-20994BU-Laptop-Review.78974.0.html)