madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Asmodian]

This is the player's responsibility, madVR simply scales to what the media player tells it to.

[QBhd]

madshi,

I'm guessing your new doubling logic will not trigger when I do 1280x720 ==> 1024x768 ? I have always loved the sharpness and clarity of "doubling" to 1280x1440 ==>1024x768 (downscale x & double y followed by downscale y). I did a quick test of the latest version and couldn't figure out how to get what I want, so I rolled back. With a 1024x768 display, it's the best way to "semi" supersample, true supersampling (1280x720==>2560x1440) is beyond overkill for a target resolution of 1024x768 and far to resource hungry for even a factory overclocked R9 270X. So I am lobbying for you to return control of when doubling is activated to the user... Or make it smart enough to know that supersampling in the above case is absurd, but the "1/2" doubling is actually very useful.

I'm already living without being able to use SSIM2D to downscale in the above scenario... NGU makes up for it. I don't think I will use newer versions if the control of when doubling happens is kept out of the users hands.

QB

[burfadel]

Please don't quote such large images in the thread, thanks.

I was thinking that which is why I only quoted one of the first images. The post was directly related to information provided in those images, if I just said it the point of the post may have been lost on people.

I'll keep it in mind for next time though, I'll just write it and hope people know what I'm referring :).

[Schwartz]

I don't think I will use newer versions if the control of when doubling happens is kept out of the users hands

I feel the same way. It's great that you put super-xbr back in, but upscaling is still restricted to a couple of algos so the renderer made the choice of 'what we like' for us. Because it's really a subjective thing, as shown by my attempt to sell the advantages of a soft upscaler in this thread. :D

In case of using super-xbr for luma doubling, chroma settings are also greyed out and stuck on automatic. All different algorithms should be available all the time. But I guess that's not in the spirit of removing options. I really don't get this - madVR has never been a tool for the computer illiterate. It's going to hurt both the software and the base of power users. For user-friendliness, there's always EVR CP and Sync. If you don't care to learn how a thing works, you're not going to care about pixel perfection or Bicubic 75 vs Bicubic 100.

Big props for the renderer and the upkeep. I don't wanna come across as ungrateful or anything.

[ryrynz]

I'll keep it in mind for next time though, I'll just write it and hope people know what I'm referring :).

If you absolutely must quote with an image and that image is large then upload to imgur and use a thumbnail or as previously stated in the forum just use a link, cheers.

[khanmein]

I don't know if this is related to madVR or not but I've only experienced it with NGU enabled so I'm gonna report it hoping someone can replicate this issue.

MPC-HC 1.7.10 64-bit + MadVR any version with NGU enabled, GTX 970 latest Nvidia driver 376.09, Windows 10 up to date, no insider preview testing.

Opening a directory in MPC-HC (File - Open Directory..) results in a BSOD that points to nvlddmkm.sys+d938

Sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't, I've had it happen more often when opening consecutive directories as in open a directory and then immediately opening another directory, and only seems to happen with NGU enabled.
It could be the Nvidia driver 376.09 or NGU, could be any since both were released very close and it never happened to me with super-xbr or NNEDI3.

no such issue here with i5-4460 + GTX 970 + W10x64 + 16 GB DDR3 + H97 mobo + NV 376.09 + 1440p60Hz

tested D3D9/D3D11 with NGU low/med

[leeperry]

Yes, but you're the first one asking for this. Does anybody else need this? I'm not going to add features just for one user.
I already asked for it a while back, it would really be common sense to have a hotkey to open the control panel directly IMO instead of going through submenus. It's the mandatory "Edit Settings" button in the filter properties that kills it, 99% users don't care for the tasktray icon IMO. We could just assign it to a mouse button et voilà ))

Don't you remember that you already asked me for that? You know, if you ask me the same thing twice, that actually decreases the chances of being implemented.
Well yeah, I thought you even agreed? I get that nagscreen everytime I click on APPLY or OK, how is that a good thing? I'm not 5yo, there's no need to repeat it constantly. Will I need to use Buzof (http://www.basta.com/Buzof)? Hopefully not =/

Please read the v0.91.4 announcement post. I've explicitly commented on this.
I still would rather use good old Jinc for <1.2x but I guess I can make extra profiles, I understand that NGU-Low is just as fast as Jinc but it requires downscaling, Jinc does not.

I'm confused. You're saying you're getting Bicubic60AR chroma upscaling (which is *not* doubling), then you're saying you can't disable chroma doubling. That kind of contradicts each other.
Ideally I would like an option to only enable luma doubling and go Jinc AR for chroma, is that still possible? Apparently not? I haven't done my homework checking what the OSD says, I was used to be able to directly choose what I wanted instead of the guesswork you expect now.

[ryrynz]

It would really be common sense to have a hotkey to open the control panel directly

Adding my support for this.

I was used to be able to directly choose what I wanted instead of the guesswork you expect now.

In saying that you should evaluate the resulting picture, you might not even be able to see any appreciable difference over previous settings.

[StinDaWg]

I think this is a limitation that can affect weak GPUs, 1.2x is too low IMHO. And the decision logic for NGU is even more inconvenient. For example, if I choose NGU low for a video that upscales 2.4x it goes "NGU low > upscale", but for NGU med or higher it goes "NGU med > NGU low < downscale" and is too much for my card, while in previous versions I was able to just use "NGU med > upscale" in this situtaion. And going quadruple for a 2.4x factor is a bit off anyway. I understand that most users here have high-end GPUs and it's not a problem for them, but please don't left behind us resource-starved people and allow more flexibility in this aspect.
madshi, I echo this sentiment... I use mVR on a laptop with a 650M and obviously can't upgrade the video card... and I also can't do any doubling at all so please leave any options in mVR that us low end video card users can still use...
Agreed. With SD->1080p my card can't do NGU-High doubling plus Jinc, but it can do it with Bicubic or Lanczos3.

So, please don't take away the ability to choice what upscaler we can use after doubling. Ideally, they should all be available to select, just like we can with downscaling now.

I don't care about chroma doubling either, as there is zero difference on my tv and it's a waste of resources. Give me all the gpu power for luma.

[leeperry]

you should evaluate the resulting picture, you might not even be able to see any appreciable difference over previous settings
Lemme judge on that kthx, I'm not up for wasting resources on my old 7850 you know but last time I checked Jinc AR trumped them all.

It's on my to do list, but it's not as straightforward as it seems. E.g. what happens if a user has a profile for situations where no scaling is needed, and if "deringing" is only active in this very profile? The settings dialog is not intelligent enough to understand that the profile can never be active at the same time as NGU, so it would complain in this situation, which wouldn't be a correct warning in this case.

In theory a similar problem could also occur with the current NGU + SuperRes warning, but it's somewhat less likely there.
Oh great, moar nagscreens for me as I'm not dropping the deringer either. Gonna install Buzof I guess ^^

[Backflash]

I've made 3 examples.

I post this in hope it is helpful for development! I'm very happy with madVR results, and NGU is considerably better for many things, but I watch anime more than 90% of the times I'm using madVR, and maybe this can be improved somehow..

Do you like jinc more than Lanczos? I think Lanczos is more neutral and doesn't bring NGU faults forward as much.
Also I like sharpen edges +thin edges at 0.8-1.0 for SD, no soften edges, add grain 1.
I may be off though, my resolution is 1440 and I never see upscaling after doubling with new builds.

http://imgur.com/a/pwRQP
Also ar in artifact removal, sometimes helps with SD anime.
AR looks slightly cleaner to me, but it's not for every frame it worsen things in some scenes and makes it better in others, so don't know if it's worth a trade.


I'm guessing your new doubling logic will not trigger when I do 1280x720 ==> 1024x768 ?
QB

Just enable 200% supersampling, it will simply double and then downscale, and to use ssim2d set "use image downscaling settings" in downscale drop down.

@madshi This brings me to another thing, simple "do not quadruple" checkbox would be nice. As temporary measure before NGU can quadruple directly.

[StinDaWg]

I just noticed something else that was pointed out on one of the previous pages.

When you choose "let madVR decide" for downscaling after upscaling, it uses strict (soft) rather than relaxed for anti-ringing. I used relaxed previously. Is this not madshi recommended setting? Is relaxed considered too sharp?

Interestingly there is almost no render time difference between strict (soft) AR and not using AR at all. Relaxed uses ~5 ms higher rendering time.

[Sunset1982]

Yes, but you're the first one asking for this. Does anybody else need this? I'm not going to add features just for one user.


I would also vote for the hotkey feature.

I'm using fullscreen exclusive mode and if I'm testing new settings or features I have to right click, wait several second for windowed mode, then right click on madvr and so on...

a hotkey would make things a lot easier.

[Georgel]

We established this the same day it was released.

Yes, but maybe I missed the conversation on aliasing, sharp is very good, but there is some aliasing for me.. :confused:

This makes sense too, as a neural net trained awhile ago, on older video content, NNEDI3 does a great job with most SD material. NNEDI3 for SD, NGU for HD. :)

NGU seems to make an "HD version", which replicates all the flaws too well. Any video that looked like an SD anime when scaled to 50% would have some very obvious flaws. :(

That is very good to keep in mind!

Thank you!

I suspect madshi wants to replace NNEDI3 so we might see another version of NGU aimed at lower res content.

That would be interesting to see!


Do you like jinc more than Lanczos? I think Lanczos is more neutral and doesn't bring NGU faults forward as much.
Also I like sharpen edges +thin edges at 0.8-1.0 for SD, no soften edges, add grain 1.
I may be off though, my resolution is 1440 and I never see upscaling after doubling with new builds.

http://imgur.com/a/pwRQP
Also ar in artifact removal, sometimes helps with SD anime.
AR looks slightly cleaner to me, but it's not for every frame it worsen things in some scenes and makes it better in others, so don't know if it's worth a trade.



Just enable 200% supersampling, it will simply double and then downscale, and to use ssim2d set "use image downscaling settings" in downscale drop down.

@madshi This brings me to another thing, simple "do not quadruple" checkbox would be nice. As temporary measure before NGU can quadruple directly.

Artifact removal adds some ringing (this is how it's named, right?)

There is a white area around black lines added with artifact removal, depending on the anime exactly, this can get quite visible, and while some people might like it, subjectively I wasn't so enthused about it..

[Georgel]

All three screenshots by Georgel (only NGU shown above as no point showing the other), and the one by Clubby show a present queue that doesn't seem to be working.

Clubby has it set to 14 and Georgel 8, but in both cases they are running at only 1! I guess that's why there are dropped frames. I both cases the other queues are all perfectly filled.

I've come across that numerous times as well. People have reported various issues sporadically in this thread, I seem to be hit by most of them! I've finally worked out how to play it flawlessly with the right settings, the downside being that it is D3D11 windowed mode (but full screen) rather than D3D11 exclusive.

@Georgel
How come D3D 11 fullscreen windowed rather than D3D 11 fullscreen exclusive?

D3D exclusive works poorly if I have to fast ALT + TAB, plus I watch a ton of very short videos (Anime music videos), entering and exiting exclusive is a pain if changing the video every 2-3 minutes.

Also D3D full screen causes some issues with some videos like madVR crash or other problems, it seems it's best left off.

On the note of present queue, I've no idea why id doesn't go higher, it should do so (?)

[QBhd]

......
Just enable 200% supersampling, it will simply double and then downscale, and to use ssim2d set "use image downscaling settings" in downscale drop down.

......

Clearly you did not read my entire post, since I stated why supersampling is not an option.

As for SSIM2D downscaling in my situation (1280x720==>1024x768)... that was changed after madVR v0.90.20

QB

[andybkma]

madshi, quick question... so with all your recent GUI and other mVR changes do you still recommend for low GPU laptops (such as mine with a 650M video card) NGU-low for chroma upscaling and Bicubic50/catmull rom for image upscaling? Am pretty sure I read that as your recommendation a few weeks ago, but just want to be sure. Material played is either 720 or 1080 AVC using CUDA.Thanks much :-)

[omarank]

I don't think JincAR is much better than Bicubic60AR for chroma doubling, while NNEDI3-16 can be a bigger improvement in some rare situations. If you disagree, maybe you can post a screenshot which proves that JincAR is visibly better than Bicubic60AR, and similar in quality to NNEDI3-16?
I am not able to find any scene atm which could show the improvement with Jinc over Bicubic60 for chroma doubling. But IIRC I extensively tested this long time back when NNEDI just became available in madVR and preferred Jinc over Bicubic75 and Lanczos at that time. I will check this again in the coming weekend, and will share screenshots if I find a good sample.

By the way, I could never see any improvement with NNEDI3 16 over Jinc for chroma doubling.

[leeperry]

my situation (1280x720==>1024x768)

Professor Obvious speaking, ages ago I briefly owned a 1024x576 HC910 projector and it looked really nasty with HD. Life is short and I realize that a new TV set might not be all that cheap but these days you can get a curved 1080p 55" OLED set for a grand: www.fnac.ch/TV-LG-55EG910V-OLED-3D-Incurve/a9734536

Feeding a 1024x768 16/9 set with mVR is kind of a major disgrace, I'm sure you could hook up a decent deal these days.....money is the root of all evil and all that but you're like currently listening to a megabucks audio rig with $10 headphones. Waste of your time, your money and hardly a scenario madshi would care for, same goes for XP users: upgrade or else basically.

Sammy sets are given away this time of the year but gotta be careful about what panel they run, luckily you can check in the service menu directly in the store.

[Backflash]

Clearly you did not read my entire post, since I stated why supersampling is not an option.

As for SSIM2D downscaling in my situation (1280x720==>1024x768)... that was changed after madVR v0.90.20

QB

Sorry, it's just very hard to understand the issue last time i've seen this resolution was on CRT in 2002.
I get it why you want to upscale, sort of, I don't know how much sharpness can be reflected, it's such a niche case with "half" double.
Is it a projector?

[Q-the-STORM]

Don't you remember that you already asked me for that? You know, if you ask me the same thing twice, that actually decreases the chances of being implemented.
I'm fine using tray -> right click -> Edit madVR settings, but if there is a assignable hotkey for it, I'll definitely use it. So I'm all for it, if it's not too much time to implement.

[QBhd]

Professor Obvious speaking, ages ago I briefly owned a 1024x576 HC910 projector and it looked really nasty with HD. Life is short and I realize that a new TV set might not be all that cheap but these days you can get a curved 1080p 55" OLED set for a grand: www.fnac.ch/TV-LG-55EG910V-OLED-3D-Incurve/a9734536

Feeding a 1024x768 16/9 set with mVR is kind of a major disgrace, I'm sure you could hook up a decent deal these days.....money is the root of all evil and all that but you're like currently listening to a megabucks audio rig with $10 headphones. Waste of your time, your money and hardly a scenario madshi would care for, same goes for XP users: upgrade or else basically.

Sammy sets are given away this time of the year but gotta be careful about what panel they run, luckily you can check in the service menu directly in the store.

Many reasons why I have not upgraded... First, it still works and it is actually a 16:9 720p Plasma. But it has 1024x768 rectangular pixels (I have mentioned this every time I post about it, but didn't in the last one, I guess I will have to keep mentioning the rectangular pixel thing in the future). Second, it has a built in PVR that I find very useful. I don't do cable or satellite and being able to use a PVR with OTA HDTV is rather nice. There are a few other reasons, but that sums it up.

I just said I will lobby for doubling control to be placed back in our hands... others want it back too for different reasons, I was just stating why I want it back.

I'm fine using tray -> right click -> Edit madVR settings, but if there is a assignable hotkey for it, I'll definitely use it. So I'm all for it, if it's not too much time to implement.

Agreed... Not an issue, but I would use a hotkey as well :)

QB

[x7007]

So does Chroma Upscaling NGu is better quality than Super-XBR ? Chroma Upscaling Super-XBR needs Activate SuperRes Filter ? because me and my friend see NGU is a bit less quality than Super-xbr which we used for a long time with the SuperRes filter enabled.

In image Upscaling, does the NGU better than NNEDI3 and Super XBR?

[huhn]

i prefer super xbr 100 over NGU low image doubling at the moment.
NGU low is to aggressive on low quality "chroma" while super XBR is relative neutral.
i not sure if it has anything to do with chroma doubling hard to test with the crippled image doubling settings.
with NGU mid it gets better and NGU high is fine and NGU very high looks good.

the "need for seat" seat logo is the problem for NGU low
source: https://abload.de/img/stdin_snapshot_55.30_b5s0p.png

no upscaled screens because UHD screen are to big...

[x7007]

i prefer super xbr 100 over NGU low at the moment.
NGU low is to aggressive on low quality "chroma" while super XBR is relative neutral.

with NGU mid it gets better and NGU high is fine and NGU very high looks good.

the "need for seat" seat logo is the problem for NGU low
source: https://abload.de/img/stdin_snapshot_55.30_b5s0p.png

no upscaled screens because UHD screen are to big...

So I'm using NGU very high on everything , that's the really best ?

I have Gtx1080 so any of them is not an issue, even NNEDI3 256 neurons for 1080p is easy.

[huhn]

i don't know i can't really use the higher ones in real time.

[jkauff]

So I'm using NGU very high on everything , that's the really best ?

I have Gtx1080 so any of them is not an issue, even NNEDI3 256 neurons for 1080p is easy.
For Standard Definition (480p) I still use NNEDI3 256 on my GTX 1060. NGU - Very High does not look as good to me for those sources.

[leeperry]

So I'm using NGU very high on everything , that's the really best ?
does the NGU better than NNEDI3 and Super XBR?
Those questions are against rule #12 of this forum: http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

If you don't see any difference, go for the less demanding as you'll be saving money on your energy bill :)

rectangular pixel
That's even worse in my book but whatever floats your boat buddy, I've seen this kind of old plasmas and I rest my case that they are a major bottleneck to mVR's raw power.

[FreeFall]

Like other users have said the current version of madVR seems a bit unbalanced out of the box regarding NGU's performance. Perhaps you should make quadrupling an option that can be switched on / off like super sampling can be (default off). Allowing quadrupling to be used again by NNEDI3 / super xbr would be welcomed by those who want to use it as well.

An option to disable chroma doubling and then choose an upscaler for chroma like in 0.91.1 and older versions would also help.

Thanks.

[QBhd]

That's even worse in my book but whatever floats your boat buddy, I've seen this kind of old plasmas and I rest my case that they are a major bottleneck to mVR's raw power.

It's got nothing to do with "what floats my boat".... I didn't want to mention reason 3, but yeah I'm poor. I don't have the $3,000 for a good OLED, I don't have the $2,000 for a older lesser quality OLED... And I certainly will not toss money at any of the LCD options. So I am going to ride this old Plasma as long as I can until I can afford to move to OLED. Is that a little clearer "buddy"

QB

[MariaX9]

That is the expected behavior, veryHigh is sort of like a placebo option so enabling chroma doubling at a low level at the same time makes sense. If using veryHigh over high is worth it then chroma doubling probably is too. :)

Chroma doubling isn't totally useless, it is simply less useful than increasing luma quality, to a point. If I could run NGU veryHigh for luma but only without chroma doubling I would, but NGU med for chroma is pretty easy relative to NGU veryHigh for luma so it is likely that someone who could run NGU veryHigh for luma would have the performance for both.

For me when doing 1080p -> 4K: NGU veryHigh for luma takes an extra 15.4ms while NGU med for chroma only takes an extra 3.0ms (compared to bicubic60AR).

Thanks for the Answer. Most of the Stuff i watch is 480p so i have enough power to use the veryHigh setting.

[leeperry]

Allowing quadrupling to be used again by NNEDI3 / super xbr would be welcomed

It's alive. (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1788393&postcount=41175)

I certainly will not toss money at any of the LCD options. So I am going to ride this old Plasma as long as I can until I can afford to move to OLED.

Oh I hear you, if 55" OLED's cost a grand here as well I'd definitely get one, but that's only in Switzerland bleh......indeed if you're anti-LCD you don't have many options at hand as even Panasonic gave up on plasma IIRC.

[FreeFall]

Thanks, huhn and leeperry

It was hiding in plain sight, I need to learn how to read past the first few lines in the drop down list.

Cheers.

[Warner306]

I'm not sure what you mean?


Are you finished making changes to the image upscaling dialog?

[AngelGraves13]

NGU does poorly with SD content because of its superior sharpness and its ability to enhance source artifacts. NNEDI3 wins here as it's much softer and looks less processed.

madshi, perhaps you should make NGU use soften edges all the time, or at least always when upscaling from SD content with a value of 3, and reduce the value as the source resolution doubles. Full HD only needs about a value of 1 as most sources are clean. 720p might need a value of 2. Otherwise, I feel that NGU will be judged to be inferior to NNEDI3 as it's too sharp for its own good.

Add Grain should be mandatory too with NGU, value 3 with SD content, 2 with 720p and 1 with 1080p and higher.

Would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. I'm sure most will say they want the choice to change it themselves, but an "automatic" or "let madvr decide" option that does the above would be most welcome.

Also, back to the Chroma Doubling. I believe it would make more sense to scale chroma after doubling and downscaling is complete to save performance. There's no point in scaling chroma, then doubling it and then scaling the entire image back down to the screen's native resolution. It's a huge waste of resources and adds tons of overhead. I don't believe there's a single person who can point out any improvement from doubling chroma, even with images. It's pretty difficult to tell any difference with the chroma scaling methods anyway, and doubling isn't helping it look any better. It's a useless feature, in my personal opinion.

[Asmodian]

NGU does poorly with SD content because of its superior sharpness and its ability to enhance source artifacts. NNEDI3 wins here as it's much softer and looks less processed.

madshi, perhaps you should make NGU use soften edges all the time, or at least always when upscaling from SD content with a value of 3, and reduce the value as the source resolution doubles. Full HD only needs about a value of 1 as most sources are clean. 720p might need a value of 2. Otherwise, I feel that NGU will be judged to be inferior to NNEDI3 as it's too sharp for its own good.

Add Grain should be mandatory too with NGU, value 3 with SD content, 2 with 720p and 1 with 1080p and higher.

Would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. I'm sure most will say they want the choice to change it themselves, but an "automatic" or "let madvr decide" option that does the above would be most welcome.

I strongly disagree that NGU should use soften edges all the time, even when upscaling SD, a big advantage of NGU is the sharpness. Forcing grain on is also bad with some content.

I don't care too much what the defaults are, for myself, but I think most casual viewers who wouldn't tweak options actually prefer the extreme sharpness "raw" NGU offers.

I do agree with NNEDI3 256 being better for most SD material but one profile for SD and one for HD is my solution. Maybe have the defaults include such a profile? Probably not as that adds a lot of complexity. :devil:

Also, back to the Chroma Doubling. I believe it would make more sense to scale chroma after doubling and downscaling is complete to save performance. There's no point in scaling chroma, then doubling it and then scaling the entire image back down to the screen's native resolution. It's a huge waste of resources and adds tons of overhead. I don't believe there's a single person who can point out any improvement from doubling chroma, even with images. It's pretty difficult to tell any difference with the chroma scaling methods anyway, and doubling isn't helping it look any better. It's a useless feature, in my personal opinion.

Doesn't that trade quality for performance option already do this? Don't take away my chroma doubling, my room is cold enough as it is. ;)

[Razoola]

Not a bad idea, but I see some problems that stop me from seriously considering this approach:

1) Squeezing all the controls for chroma upscaling, image upscaling, doubling and downscaling after doubling into the "Movie Upscaling" settings page would make the page crazy full of controls and it would shy users away.

2) Having chroma upscaling settings in all 3 pages means a lot of redundant controls. Maybe some users would want to use different chroma upscaling settings for the 3 different situations you mentioned, but many users would not. I think many users are happy using just 1 chroma upscaling algo for all situations.

3) The basic concept of your approach can be covered very nicely and easily by using profiles.

Overall I simply don't see this approach as a noticeable improvement over the current approach. Just my own personal opinion, of course. Your approach has some advantages and some disadvantages. So it's simply different, but not better, IMHO.

Thanks for taking the time to think about this, you do raise good point against the idea. For me it's more about getting the settings displayed in a easily understandable way regardless on weather some of it can be done already. It's more about understanding that for example the chroma setting for upscaling would only be used during upscaling and at no other time.

There would be redundent settings depending on the path used when rendering as you say. But maybe thats a good thing and not bad. Doing such a change now would require alot of work and I do not discount just how tedious that is from a programming standpoint espicially given your not giving a new feature but rather rearanging current function. I just feel there is a long term benifit in breaking the settings up in this way I suggest.

I fully see and agree your point about settings may be overcrowded and indeed thought would be needed in how settings were set out. For me this is the do or die point of the entire idea, it only works if it can all be displayed on one page while looking simplistic. If it looks overcrowded and messy then it will never work.

[Backflash]

madshi, perhaps you should make NGU use soften edges all the time, or at least always when upscaling from SD content with a value of 3, and reduce the value as the source resolution doubles. Full HD only needs about a value of 1 as most sources are clean. 720p might need a value of 2. Otherwise, I feel that NGU will be judged to be inferior to NNEDI3 as it's too sharp for its own good.

Add Grain should be mandatory too with NGU, value 3 with SD content, 2 with 720p and 1 with 1080p and higher.


That would ruin NGU for me. Take into consideration different screens, for example on 65" 1080 tv artifacts would look giant.
But on 27" 1440 monitor I can glance over a lot of things except sharpness which I like very much. Not to mention matter of taste.
It should stay an option. NGU is very new, people will adapt.

[Neo-XP]

@madshi For image doublers :

Shouldn't Lanczos3 AR use the relaxed AR by default for luma downscaling ? I also thought it was your recommended setting.
I think you can remove all the LL variants from the luma downscaling after doubling drop-down list, LL is not good to use after doubling.

Can you instead add more choices for the "algorithm quality" for chroma ?
I'd like to use the same algorithm as the luma upscaling one after doubling, like it was in previous versions. Would that be possible ?

This and an option to disable the forced NGU quadrupling (meanwhile you work on a direct triple/quadruple upscaling), and I would definitely migrate to the next releases for good.

[AngelGraves13]

That would ruin NGU for me. Take into consideration different screens, for example on 65" 1080 tv artifacts would look giant.
But on 27" 1440 monitor I can glance over a lot of things except sharpness which I like very much. Not to mention matter of taste.
It should stay an option. NGU is very new, people will adapt.

I have a 1440p 27 inch screen and NGU with DVD content looks rather ugly. The source isn't very good and NGU creates razor sharp edges that make the image look processed. Only softening edges and adding grain improve the image, but I don't see why that should be optional. It should look right at all times instead of looking the way it does.

[Asmodian]

I have a 1440p 27 inch screen and NGU with DVD content looks rather ugly. The source isn't very good and NGU creates razor sharp edges that make the image look processed. Only softening edges and adding grain improve the image, but I don't see why that should be optional. It should look right at all times instead of looking the way it does.

What if the source is good? Also madVR isn't just for you. :)

I think colored noise for dithering is evil and should be removed but lots of other people like it so I am happy with it even being the default. It is shocking how different people's tastes are, don't assume your's are objectively more correct.

Pointless settings, like 128 neuron NNEDI3 doubling for chroma, is not the same thing as how sharp you prefer.

[kalston]

I have a 1440p 27 inch screen and NGU with DVD content looks rather ugly. The source isn't very good and NGU creates razor sharp edges that make the image look processed. Only softening edges and adding grain improve the image, but I don't see why that should be optional. It should look right at all times instead of looking the way it does.

I actually like NGU much more than NNEDI for DVDs upscaled to 1440p. Even with some old films with a very poor PQ (for example Dersu Uzala - 1975), it brings out quite a bit more fine details and is noticeably sharper - which I like. And I'm not applying any post processing - just NGU very high + SSIM downscaling (versus NNEDI3 256, JincAR and SuperRes).

BTW I may have found a bug - when I switch between profiles (I made a NNEDI+SR and Jinc+SR profile) then back to my NGU profile I see SuperRes being applied after the chroma upscaling (only). But after a fresh start (NGU is my default profile) or if I restart the player it is not. It's only a couple of ms and it's only chroma but I'm pretty sure that's not intended :p

[Uoppi]

madshi, perhaps you should make NGU use soften edges all the time [...] Full HD only needs about a value of 1 as most sources are clean.

You mean for 1080p content on a UHD tv? What I mean is, soften edges/add grain cannot be enabled if there's no upscaling, right (1080p on a 1080p tv)?

Doesn't that trade quality for performance option already do this? Don't take away my chroma doubling, my room is cold enough as it is. ;)

Actually, I'm forced to use this trade quality option because otherwise UHD videos on my 1080p screen end up with crazy high rendering times. Like 200+ (!) ms compared to the ~30 ms I get with it enabled.

Could someone explain to me what exactly is happening to chroma in that scenario (native UHD video to 1080p screen downscale), given the dramatic performance difference?

I think you can remove all the LL variants from the luma downscaling after doubling drop-down list, LL is not good to use after doubling.

But for direct downscales (i.e. without doubling) LL might be preferable, right? I'm not sure if I can see a difference but I use LL for UHD -> 1080p downscales, otherwise it's disabled.

[AngelGraves13]

What if the source is good? Also madVR isn't just for you. :)

I think colored noise for dithering is evil and should be removed but lots of other people like it so I am happy with it even being the default. It is shocking how different people's tastes are, don't assume your's are objectively more correct.

Pointless settings, like 128 neuron NNEDI3 doubling for chroma, is not the same thing as how sharp you prefer.

I haven't come across any good DVD sources as MPEG 2 compression is quite terrible. I'll post some images to illustrate.

[JarrettH]

Twin Peaks Gold Box DVDs are a glorious SD source :D

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film4/blu-ray_reviews_62_/twin_peaks_blu-ray.htm

[Asmodian]

You mean for 1080p content on a UHD tv? What I mean is, soften edges/add grain cannot be enabled if there's no upscaling, right (1080p on a 1080p tv)?

There is also 200% supersampling, this would double, apply soften edges/add grain, and then downscale to the original resolution. However, I believe AngelGraves13 is viewing on a 2560x1440 display so doubling would still activate for 1080p even without supersampling enabled. ;)

Actually, I'm forced to use this trade quality option because otherwise UHD videos on my 1080p screen end up with crazy high rendering times. Like 200+ (!) ms compared to the ~30 ms I get with it enabled.

Could someone explain to me what exactly is happening to chroma in that scenario (native UHD video to 1080p screen downscale), given the dramatic performance difference?

Chroma is half the resolution of luma so for UHD the chroma is already 1920x1080. You can either upscale the chroma to 3840x2160 to match the luma and then downscale everything to 1920x1080 (200+ms) or you can just downscale the luma to 1920x1080 and leave the chroma alone (30ms).

But for direct downscales (i.e. without doubling) LL might be preferable, right? I'm not sure if I can see a difference but I use LL for UHD -> 1080p downscales, otherwise it's disabled.

Yes, but the downscaling option on the image upscaling page only applies when downscaling to a resolution larger than the source so removing the LL options there is probably reasonable.

[StinDaWg]

Anyone suggesting that soften edges and add grain should be forced default on everything should be slapped. :sly:

Not only is there the gpu hit, but many don't like how it looks anyways.

[QBhd]

Anyone suggesting that soften edges and add grain should be forced default on everything should be slapped. :sly:

Not only is there the gpu hit, but many don't like how it looks anyways.

Agreed... I still have not seen a use for them myself

QB

[ryrynz]

By the way, I could never see any improvement with NNEDI3 16 over Jinc for chroma doubling.

Gotta know where to look and on what scenes, it's quite subtle most of the time until a whole lot of red comes into the frame.

Anyone suggesting that soften edges and add grain should be forced default on everything should be slapped. :sly:


Indeed. Madshi's done the testing, simply tick the box if you want it.


Pointless settings, like 128 neuron NNEDI3 doubling for chroma..

:D

[Backflash]

Even with some old films with a very poor PQ (for example Dersu Uzala - 1975)

http://imgur.com/a/JG6db

Heh, I got it on my hands now. Looks good to me.