madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Cinemancave]

I am getting screen tearing in exclusive mode under Windows 7, regardless of the display I use (TV, projector, computer screen). The tearing goes away if I disable exclusive mode. What are the drawbacks of NOT running exclusive mode? My GPU is GeForce 1080.

[ryrynz]

Main drawback is not being able to run 10 bit output but for many this doesn't do much anyway. Windowed mode is a lot better than it used to be, because of it's usability it's been my preferred output for quite some time.
So basically you're losing pretty much nothing beneficial. Set and forget.

[Oguignant]

Correct, though some dropped frames, delayed frames, or presentation glitches on startup or after seeking are OK.



I keep asking for help. How to make these images look better? Without so much noise or artifacts? Is there anything I can do with madvr?

http://i.imgur.com/Tpft6zTl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AfX4vr2l.jpg

[StinDaWg]

^^ Jesus, post thumbnails please.

What you're calling noise/artifacts is just film grain. It's supposed to look like that...

[Oguignant]

^^ Jesus, post thumbnails please.

What you're calling noise/artifacts is just film grain. It's supposed to look like that...

Sorry! my mistake!

[StinDaWg]

Unless you ticked "add grain" under upscaling refinement. If so, then disable it. If not, then it's just how this particular video is supposed to look.

A lot of movies have heavy film grain, and some people don't like the way it looks. Personally, I love it, if that's the look they were going for.

Moarrr grain. :D

[Oguignant]

Unless you ticked "add grain" under upscaling refinement. If so, then disable it. If not, then it's just how this particular video is supposed to look.

No, it is disabled. I do not use refinements.

[Oguignant]

Unless you ticked "add grain" under upscaling refinement. If so, then disable it. If not, then it's just how this particular video is supposed to look.

A lot of movies have heavy film grain, and some people don't like the way it looks. Personally, I love it, if that's the look they were going for.

Moarrr grain. :D

It happens to me only with old movies. The tv player (lg smartshare) plays it much better, without so much noise/grain. Looks much better for me.
Some way to eliminate noise/grain without losing quality and definition? I tried denoise shader, but I did not get a good result.

[Warner306]

It happens to me only with old movies. The tv player (lg smartshare) plays it much better, without so much noise/grain. Looks much better for me.
Some way to eliminate noise/grain without losing quality and definition? I tried denoise shader, but I did not get a good result.

Do you have enhance details on?

[har3inger]

It happens to me only with old movies. The tv player (lg smartshare) plays it much better, without so much noise/grain. Looks much better for me.
Some way to eliminate noise/grain without losing quality and definition? I tried denoise shader, but I did not get a good result.

Most TV's/players nowadays implement something called digital noise removal, which smooth over your image to varying degrees and remove grain, often at the cost of removing detail at the same time.

madvr doesn't currently have anything that removes grain from images. At least not yet. There should be custom scripts out there that do it that may or may not work together with madvr.

[Oguignant]

Most TV's/players nowadays implement something called digital noise removal, which smooth over your image to varying degrees and remove grain, often at the cost of removing detail at the same time.

madvr doesn't currently have anything that removes grain from images. At least not yet. There should be custom scripts out there that do it that may or may not work together with madvr.

Ok! Thks
Someone who has a script to share?

[Asmodian]

Ok! Thks
Someone who has a script to share?

Denoising is a difficult problem and I have still not found a good script that can denoise in real time without damaging quality a lot. :(

Removing strong film grain, as found in older movies, with real time denoisers also removes most of the texture detail making skin and cloth look terrible. There is a reason the remaster left the grain in.

If you like a smoother look and don't mind the loss of texture detail this is one area where the dedicated hardware in modern TVs does a very good job compared to currently available software tools.

[CruNcher]

Depends on how advanced the Dedicated Hardware IP is they can totally beat Software, especially in balance terms on Denoising Quality/Performance/Power
Motion Compensated Denoising can be very efficient overall and actually is the most efficient when implemented in Dedicated Hardware there was also a nice new evaluation of it's Performance based on HEVC actually.

[Oguignant]

Denoising is a difficult problem and I have still not found a good script that can denoise in real time without damaging quality a lot. :(

Removing strong film grain, as found in older movies, with real time denoisers also removes most of the texture detail making skin and cloth look terrible. There is a reason the remaster left the grain in.

If you like a smoother look and don't mind the loss of texture detail this is one area where the dedicated hardware in modern TVs does a very good job compared to currently available software tools.

On my tv, when I use 4k 60mhz resolution per hdmi, the noise reduction and mpeg noise reduction are disabled. I do not know why.

The noise reduction by nvidia works only if i choose nvidia cuvid as hardware decoder?

In the panel of nvidia, I always use the options of noise reduction and edge enhancement, by the media player. And Use inverse telecine enabled. It's okay like this? Or should I enable it to do it nvidia?

[Magik Mark]

Guys

Made some experiments.

When in exclusive mode I get frame drops every 3minutes. However, this is corrected using reclock
When I'm out of FSE no frame drops regardless which audio renderer is being utilized as long as display refresh rate is the same or very close from that of the video's

Why is frame drops happening in FSE even if the refresh rate of the display is the same of that of the video? Is there a setting that can be tweaked. I'll be using a x64 player and reclock is only x86

[Georgel]

@madshi

Can we get a force 200% scaling for Jinc in image upscaling?

After about 100 tests I came to the conclusion that anything but Jinc will add a bit of grain to edges while watching anime.

Jinc seems the most rounded, cleanest algorithm, but I want to force a 200% upscaling still using Jinc to get the most out of it. NNEDI and NGU work very well with human and life-like content, but not with anime... At least not in my tests / setup...

[Oguignant]

Loses image quality if I use the internal subtitle rendering of mpc-hc? Which one should I use anyway?

[sneaker_ger]

Loses image quality if I use the internal subtitle rendering of mpc-hc?
No, not at all.

[Oguignant]

No, not at all.

And performance?

[sneaker_ger]

Compared to no subtitles? Very little.
Compared to other subtitle renderers? Depends but does not matter mostly. Sometimes on complex ASS scripts can be slower/faster than other renderers. It is usually not worth to use other subtitle renderer.

[Georgel]

Compared to no subtitles? Very little.
Compared to other subtitle renderers? Depends but does not matter mostly. Sometimes on complex ASS scripts can be slower/faster than other renderers. It is usually not worth to use other subtitle renderer.

XYsub seems to do some tricks better than the internal renderer, but no noticeable performance difference so far.

(Especially for Anime and floating text over the image, like translated signs, XySub seems to do things a bit better than the internal renderer. )

[huhn]

xy subfilter and assfilter mod are using the "new subtitle interface" if you care about correct colors in subtitles than this is needed.

rendering complex subtitles at UHD is kind of impossible without assfilter mod.

[Oguignant]

xy subfilter and assfilter mod are using the "new subtitle interface" if you care about correct colors in subtitles than this is needed.

rendering complex subtitles at UHD is kind of impossible without assfilter mod.

Thks, I appreciate the help. It's my weekend of "learning to use madvr"

[Asmodian]

On my tv, when I use 4k 60mhz resolution per hdmi, the noise reduction and mpeg noise reduction are disabled. I do not know why.

The noise reduction by nvidia works only if i choose nvidia cuvid as hardware decoder?

In the panel of nvidia, I always use the options of noise reduction and edge enhancement, by the media player. And Use inverse telecine enabled. It's okay like this? Or should I enable it to do it nvidia?

I don't have much experiance with those features, sorry. I always disable them. I am not interested in real time noise reduction and believe the resulting picture is usually worse than without it. :(

madVR will bypass all of Nvidia's video (damage) algorithms unless using DXVA2 decoding, I am not sure about CUVID. You can try turning on denoising in Nvidia's control panel to see if you like the resulting picture more.

rendering complex subtitles at UHD is kind of impossible without assfilter mod.

I really like assfilter mod. It has been working perfectly for me and I appreciate the performance and that the correct calibration is applied to subtitles. It did help with some issues I had with xysubfilter and UHD subtitles.

[Georgel]

Is it possible to use madVR on a very noisy source to smooth out the noise but keep sharpness on edges?

Something like watching horriblesubs rips which are TV rips, and are very very noisy but to at least lower the noise but keep edges clean (?)

[Oguignant]

I don't have much experiance with those features, sorry. I always disable them. I am not interested in real time noise reduction and believe the resulting picture is usually worse than without it. :(

madVR will bypass all of Nvidia's video (damage) algorithms unless using DXVA2 decoding, I am not sure about CUVID. You can try turning on denoising in Nvidia's control panel to see if you like the resulting picture more.



I really like assfilter mod. It has been working perfectly for me and I appreciate the performance and that the correct calibration is applied to subtitles. It did help with some issues I had with xysubfilter and UHD subtitles.

I enabled them and saw no difference. So I leave them disabled. Only activate "Use inverse telecine".

For now I will continue to use internal subtitle render. Work fine for me. I have very little uhd content (only 10 or 15 uhd movies, and almost 400 fhd) I do not find where to download uhd content from torrent.

Note: I learned how to use the profiles. Wow surprisingly helpful.

[huhn]

Is it possible to use madVR on a very noisy source to smooth out the noise but keep sharpness on edges?

Something like watching horriblesubs rips which are TV rips, and are very very noisy but to at least lower the noise but keep edges clean (?)

these are not TV rip (forum rules) and they are not noisy and if there is noisy there is a reason for that.

[Georgel]

these are not TV rip (forum rules) and they are not noisy and if there is noisy there is a reason for that.

Was using it as an example since I avoid watching anything like a TV rip (better buy Blu Rays for anime that you really love), but there are series where the whole series has a bit of grain / noise over that I would still want to try and filter out.

[plasma]

Was using it as an example since I avoid watching anything like a TV rip (better buy Blu Rays for anime that you really love), but there are series where the whole series has a bit of grain / noise over that I would still want to try and filter out.
Use ffdshow raw video filter as external filter under mpc hc. It renders the image before madvr. It has some decent denoising option.

After you denoised the image with its options you can use the madvr settings such as nnedi3, edge thinning and (very little adaptive sharpen). ngu can amplify input artefacts

[Oguignant]

The hdr passthrough option does not work yet? My TV (lg oled 65ef9500) when it detects HDR content, activates HDR Mode (netflix, anazon, and local playback). But not with madvr. Why?

[Q-the-STORM]

The hdr passthrough option does not work yet? My TV (lg oled 65ef9500) when it detects HDR content, activates HDR Mode (netflix, anazon, and local playback). But not with madvr. Why?
It passes through HDR, but it doesn't send the HDR infoframe, which activates HDR on your TV.... for now, you'd need another device the send the HDR infoframe, like the HDfury Integral...

if I remember correctly, madshi said he's going to implement/fix it once the APIs are public... until then, madshi can't do anything...

[Oguignant]

It passes through HDR, but it doesn't send the HDR infoframe, which activates HDR on your TV.... for now, you'd need another device the send the HDR infoframe, like the HDfury Integral...

if I remember correctly, madshi said he's going to implement/fix it once the APIs are public... until then, madshi can't do anything...

Oh, okay. Netflix has problems with hdr content, it does not look good. Amazon had the same problem, but I already solve it. I have no trouble viewing hdr content. Hdr is still in diapers.

[cork_OS]

Is it possible to use madVR on a very noisy source to smooth out the noise but keep sharpness on edges?

Something like watching horriblesubs rips which are TV rips, and are very very noisy but to at least lower the noise but keep edges clean (?)
"Reduce ringing artifacts" madVR filter only removes haloing, not mosquito noise. So you shold try deringing & mosquito noise reduction (http://avisynth.nl/index.php/External_filters#Deringing_.26_Mosquito_Noise) Avisynth filters.

[SweetLow]

FAQ:
A) FreeSync / G-SYNC
For perfect motion smoothness, we want the display to show each video frame for *EXACTLY* the right amount of time, which is usually 1000 / 24.000 * 1.001 = 41.708333333333333333333333333333 milliseconds.

Just to be precise. You are right in case of ordinal (or pull) play mode. In case of live sources (or push mode) even exact and standard video rate from source is not our exact rate.

[Georgel]

Use ffdshow raw video filter as external filter under mpc hc. It renders the image before madvr. It has some decent denoising option.

After you denoised the image with its options you can use the madvr settings such as nnedi3, edge thinning and (very little adaptive sharpen). ngu can amplify input artefacts

Thank you!

I will give it a shot!

"Reduce ringing artifacts" madVR filter only removes haloing, not mosquito noise. So you shold try deringing & mosquito noise reduction (http://avisynth.nl/index.php/External_filters#Deringing_.26_Mosquito_Noise) Avisynth filters.

Yes, something like mosquito noise is what I was seeing (didn't know the term before)

Thanks a lot for your help!

[StinDaWg]

I have these resolutions set for madVR to switch to... 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60

If I'm using ffdshow raw (for SVP) madVR always switches to 1080p23 if the source fps is 29.97 or 30. I do not have this issue when I'm not using ffdshow raw.

If I use the MPC-HC built in switcher with ffdshow raw instead of madVR it works fine.

Has anyone seen this happen before?

I would just use MPC-HC switcher, but it doesn't work properly with madVRs film mode deinterlace. It doesn't switch to 23 hz.

[Oguignant]

A productive weekend learning to use madvr and its wonderful functions. I want to thank all the members of this forum who took the time to answer all my questions. All very friendly.

Thanks again.

[Oguignant]

Hello! I have a question. For upscaling from 2k to 4k, who does a better job? NNEDi3 or NGU? These days I was told that NGU was better with 4k native, so I did not use it for upscaling to 4k, but I have my doubts. I do not know when to choose NGU or NNEDI3.

NGU i can use it as "very high" to image/chroma upscaling. But nnedi3 only 128 n max.

[ryrynz]

Hello! I have a question. For upscaling from 2k to 4k, who does a better job? NNEDi3 or NGU? These days I was told that NGU was better with 4k native, so I did not use it for upscaling to 4k, but I have my doubts. I do not know when to choose NGU or NNEDI3.


It's up to you to decide. Once again, It's personal preference based on your content, your display and your eyes. There is no "best"


NGU i can use it as "very high" to image/chroma upscaling. But nnedi3 only 128 n max.

Higher isn't better. Please don't use use NNEDI3 128 neurons for chroma, it contributes to climate change.

[Oguignant]

It's up to you to decide. Once again, It's personal preference based on your content, your display and your eyes. There is no "best"



Higher isn't better. Please don't use use NNEDI3 128 neurons for chroma, it contributes to climate change.

Maybe I ask wrong. I want to know what difference there is between each one. And also, for example, if instead of using "neddi3 d 128 q 32", it is the same to use "NGU high". Understand what I say? If with "NGU high" I get the same results, in performance terms I win, because "NGU high" is faster for me. "Different ways get the same result."

climate change? are you kidding?

[hannes69]

Please don't use use NNEDI3 128 neurons for chroma, it contributes to climate change.

Yeah, it also contributes to climate change using GPUs like many here which are drawing more power alone than my whole desktop computer system including the monitor... Maybe power is way too cheap in many countries...
It is definitely a question of efficiency. Is it efficient to invest 500% more power to gain 0.5% better picture quality :D
The trend here is obvious: Spending as much money as one wants for a certain GPU and then maxing the load (90% until frames are dropping). And if max drawing algorithms arent´t possible, throw away the half year old GPU and buying a new one. Reminds me sometimes of the gaming scene, there obviously it seems very important to get 500 frames per second for certain games, for whatever that´s good for.
I think for the people who are so proud of their GPU handling 256 neuron NNEDI3 luma and chroma quadrupling there´s some need for the possibility of 512 neuron octopling :D:D:D
No offense, only a way of thinking about that.:rolleyes:

[Oguignant]

Yeah, it also contributes to climate change using GPUs like many here which are drawing more power alone than my whole desktop computer system including the monitor... Maybe power is way too cheap in many countries...
It is definitely a question of efficiency. Is it efficient to invest 500% more power to gain 0.5% better picture quality :D
The trend here is obvious: Spending as much money as one wants for a certain GPU and then maxing the load (90% until frames are dropping). And if max drawing algorithms arent´t possible, throw away the half year old GPU and buying a new one. Reminds me sometimes of the gaming scene, there obviously it seems very important to get 500 frames per second for certain games, for whatever that´s good for.
I think for the people who are so proud of their GPU handling 256 neuron NNEDI3 luma and chroma quadrupling there´s some need for the possibility of 512 neuron octopling :D:D:D
No offense, only a way of thinking about that.:rolleyes:

Energy is expensive in any country, if you use it as fun and not to produce. I believe the concept of global warming was invented by the Chinese to make the American industry stop being competitive...:) Does not matter, Al Gore and I appreciate what you do to improve climate change.
I contributed using the Air Conditioning to not less than 24 degrees.

[Neo-XP]

This is what I use now after a lot of testing with films (on good old v0.91.1 with a GTX 970) :

artifact removal : reduce banding artifacts (medium + high)

chroma upscaling : NGU-Med / super-xbr150 + AR + SR4 (no clear winner here, I use NGU-Med because the edges are sharper)
image downscaling : Bicubic150 + AR (relaxed)
image doubling for luma : 2x supersampling with NGU-Med
image doubling for chroma : Lanczos3 + AR
upscaling refinement : soften edges 1 + add grain 3

dithering : Ordered + use colored noise + change dither for every frame
Error Diffusion - option 2 gives better result, but I can't use it for 4K with my GC (90% load and dropped frames).

To remove ringing and dark halos, I just use this in aviSynth :
SetMemoryMax(768)
SetMTMode(3)
ffdshow_source()
SetMTMode(2)
FineDehalo(thmi=128, thma=128, thlimi=50, thlima=50, contra=1.0)
SetMTMode(1)
GetMTMode(false) > 0 ? distributor() : last

I'm still waiting for a new version to come out to disable image quadrupling and use Lanczos3 + AR for chroma doubling (NGU is overkill for this and Bicubic60 is not as sharp). I will then be able to do an apples-to-apples comparison.

Speaking of comparisons, here is one between super-xbr150 + AR + SR4 and NGU-Med for chroma upscaling :

https://s24.postimg.org/n817t3w35/superxbr150_AR_SR4.png (https://postimg.org/image/n817t3w35/) https://s24.postimg.org/bhnabq3ap/NGU_Med.png (https://postimg.org/image/bhnabq3ap/)

Edges are sharper with NGU, but the texture looks sharper with super-xbr... I can't decide.

[huhn]

can you show an image where lanczos 3 AR is better for chroma doubling than bicubic 60 AR?

[Neo-XP]

can you show an image where lanczos 3 AR is better for chroma doubling than bicubic 60 AR?

Sure, here you are with Bicubic60 AR / Lanczos3 AR / NGU-Med :

https://s29.postimg.org/q3jv4d2k3/Bicubic60_AR.png (https://postimg.org/image/q3jv4d2k3/) https://s29.postimg.org/lixopfiur/Lanczos3_AR.png (https://postimg.org/image/lixopfiur/) https://s29.postimg.org/yblspcugj/NGU_Med.png (https://postimg.org/image/yblspcugj/)

Lanczos3 AR is slightly sharper and closer to NGU.
The difference in GPU load is negligible for me (~1% more load).

[huhn]

what chroma scaler was used and can you make a source image?

[Neo-XP]

what chroma scaler was used and can you make a source image?

NGU-Med was used for chroma upscaling for this comparison.
You can test it yourself if you have any doubts, and post results.

[huhn]

well i need the image...

[Neo-XP]

well i need the image...

All I can give you is the FHD image before the chroma doubling to 4K :

https://s23.postimg.org/aee3fnuon/FHD_source.png (https://postimg.org/image/aee3fnuon/)

[huhn]

ok got it amplifying again...

i mean a very very small part of an 720p image was scaled to 720p