madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Grimsdyke]

@ Madshi.
When I try to play a file with build 87 my TV turns black and then reports no input signal !! After turning off and on the TV MPC-BE has loaded the file but with wrong refresh rates, etc.
Build 86 works perfectly fine.

This problem is unfortunately still there even in the latest test build 91. I don't have an account at AVS so if anyone could alert Madshi of this issue it would be much appreciated.
(And, of course, if Madshi then wishes that I should register there for better/faster bug fixing I would do this.)

[Manni]

This problem is unfortunately still there even in the latest test build 91. I don't have an account at AVS so if anyone could alert Madshi of this issue it would be much appreciated.
(And, of course, if Madshi then wishes that I should register there for better/faster bug fixing I would do this.)

You should definitely register on AVS and leave feedback in the thread there explaining your issue as precisely as possible, so that madshi can get more details from you if needed.

[brazen1]

This is a bit of a misunderstanding or over complicating setup or something.

For 1:1 2160p content luma is just as important as it always is. For upscaling cropped UHD (e.g. 2030p or something) you still want to prioritize luma quality over chroma. If you are not scaling luma at all then setting image upscaling to NGU AA very high will not take any GPU power, so you can set chroma upscaling to a higher quality option in this case. However, there is no reason to set luma upscaling to Lanczos 3 or something. Just set the trigger for doubling to 1.5x and quadrupling to 3x and configure 'if any (more) scaling needs to be done' as desired.

For 1:1 <2160p content. Again disabling quadrupling is not important for 1080p -> 2160p, madVR is already not going to use quadrupling for that. Disabling doubling for 540p makes no sense. Doubling twice is higher quality than direct quadrupling and NGU AA does not support direct quadrupling anyway. If your quadrupling is set to direct quadruple then doubling is not used so there is no need to specifically disable it (not that you can anyway).

For 720p I do like quadrupling, so I set activate quadrupling to 3.0x. This allows 720p and below to be quadrupled while anything higher than 720p, up to 1440p, is doubled and anything above that is only upscaled with Jinc AR (or as configured), and as always - only if needed.

I wanted to thank you for taking the time to detail this for me.

Setting the trigger for doubling to 1.5x and quadrupling to 3x allowed me to bump all the settings to 'very high' for NGU AA Luma 2160p 60fps & 24fps profiles. I achieved Chroma NGU AA 'high' for 2160p 24fps & NGU AA 'low' for 60fps.

Setting the trigger for doubling to 1.5x and quadrupling to 3x for my 1080p (not sure those are correct for 1080p >2160p) profile yielded NGU Sharp 'medium' Luma doubling & direct quadruple 'very high' with any more scaling set to Jinc AR. Chroma is at NGU Sharp 'High'. I can still apply the denoising algo which is important for some of my compressed rips.

Do you consider these settings more correct now using my little GTX 960 4GB? Thanks again for the tips.

[tp4tissue]

This is only true if you can make use of the better black values, which means you need a pitch-black environment. Gaming screens and gaming setups, which is what we're talking about here right now, are not setup for that.

Also, the screen in question is not OLED. Context is important.

There is no User-determined context for HDR

HDR stipulates a darkened environment for viewing.

The guess work is taken out, if you want to view HDR TO SPEC, it has be a near dark room.. I forgot the exact number , something like 5cd/m^2

So from the perspective of FULLY respecting the director's intent.

THERE IS ONLY 1 way to view HDR, and that is in a Blackened room.

Since that is the case in writing, OLED and the Upcoming LMCL should be the only endpoints. All existing 1000 nit LCDs can GTFO.

I'd say anything above 300nit LCD side is plenty awful already.

[tp4tissue]

I prefer NGU AA for chroma, chroma is usually not super detailed anyway and AA results in a cleaner chroma channel.

NO it is not, It is impossible to tell the difference between ANY of the chroma choices at real viewing distances in a normal image.

The only way to see any difference whatsoever for chroma is with your nose up against the TV, while flipping back and forth on high contrast edges.

[Asmodian]

NO it is not, It is impossible to tell the difference between ANY of the chroma choices at real viewing distances in a normal image.

Ok. :rolleyes:

[janos666]

Download "source" (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LxLYkyO74BCagXQqEF2UzkkRkq3hY3Ua) and comparison. AMD HDR vs TV player.

I plan to investigate this a bit further and more thoroughly (including the use of a DSLR instead of a smartphone camera) at a later date but here is an example of under-saturated HDR colors with AMD (-> see the attachments).
When the AMD output looks like this the TV's OSD info banner does not list Rec2020 (though no Rec709 or other standard either, the list is just shorter) whereas Rec2020 appears with nVidia and also with AMD when it happens to function as expected (nVidia seems to be reliable nowadays while the AMD is a random coin flip, sometimes it's fine, other times it's bad, I don't have enough data to tell what could cause this if there is any specific trigger).
And yes, now I am aware DXVA2 is broken but that "only" causes banding (a lot with AMD, a little with nVidia), not color gamut mismatch. I switched to D3D11 decoder on both systems by now.
NV HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xrRjTiPYNdcSiZRqZyDvUwYhtMb2esEO) - AMD HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fp1SDZgYph5CNXpJ46-Mj3cBvHd5vAmM)

[Klaus1189]

@janos666: Please uploasd files to a filehoster, because we can not open the files uploaded direct here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wdGtGGvf5mLLjeKd57en5NfcehVxE2iN/view?usp=sharing

[tony359]

Hi there,

I have a question about MadVR and HDR. My projector is an Epson 9300, haven't really played with HDR much yet. Tonight I realised that with the latest nVidia drivers the projector switches to HDR when I play HDR (yay!) but when I go into full screen it goes back to SDR. Exclusive mode is disabled.
I read of people complaining of black screen when in full screen: I have picture but it goes back to SDR.

I am using MPC-HC 1.8.8, Windows 10 1903, nVidia drivers 431.70 and projector is directly connected to VPR.

Any help please?

Since I'm here, another unrelated question: if I play some older videos (in my case a 720x480 video), picture is not upscaled to full screen. What am I missing?

Thanks all!!

[DMU]

@janos666
I look forward to your research. Here are (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KCPGNNIUYrrnvlQ68_l81BSOgaVCxg65) some more photos (oversaturation vs undersaturation) for comparison. True (built-in TV player) somewhere in the middle. AMD driver, which affects the color - 19.5.1. But if you install it under Windows 1903, the HDR does not work at all (the image will be dark).
Please tell me your photos of which movie? And what time code? Can you give a link or upload somewhere?

[tp4tissue]

@janos666
I look forward to your research. Here are (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KCPGNNIUYrrnvlQ68_l81BSOgaVCxg65) some more photos (oversaturation vs undersaturation) for comparison. True somewhere in the middle. AMD driver, which affects the color - 19.5.1. But if you install it under Windows 1903, the HDR does not work at all (the image will be dark).

I mean, if you're not using a 3Dlut, Nothing is where it should be anyway. So these comparisons are m00t. there's no reference for you to say , this looks oversaturated or undersaturated, you simply can't know that.

Your display could be pulling on red more than blue, and if you adjust saturation, it's drawing all the colors in a direction that's already skewed.

Again, you're entitled to an opinion of the image, but it's in reference to your visual taste and NOT to what the data actually intended.

If you care about ( the right ) Color, get an xrite, w/ 3dlut correction, this is a non-issue. :D

[saracas]

Can't figure out why some 4K HDR remuxes have a stutter during pan scenes in fullscreen (exclusive and non-exlcusive). If I don't full screen, it's smooth. Claims repeated frames every 8 minutes, and my 2080Ti isn't even at 50%. No dropped frames...

EDIT: It's caused by having MadVR set refresh rate to 24hz. I tried setting 2160p23 and 2160p24 but both result in a slight stutter. Leaving my LG OLED in 60hz results in smooth, jutter free, motion during pans and much less blur. 24hz playback should be superior though? Any ideas?

[arcspin]

Try setting present frames in advance to 1. That has fixed the issue for many. Using D3D9 presentation with 8-bit RGB output rather than D3D11 presentation has also fixed the issue for others

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

[el Filou]

I mean, if you're not using a 3Dlut these comparisons are m00t [...] get an xriteCould you please stop derailing discussions like this every time?
There's no point using a meter if people can't first correctly setup their graphics pipeline to get it to at least display in the most accurate existing mode, which is what is being discussed here. 3DLUTs are for correcting inaccuracies in the display, not massive symptoms of bad configuration of the source.

[janos666]

AMD driver, which affects the color - 19.5.1. But if you install it under Windows 1903, the HDR does not work at all (the image will be dark).
Please tell me your photos of which movie? And what time code? Can you give a link or upload somewhere?

'Mortal Engines' BD, close to the begging but I don't consider this a really great test case, I just happened to have this open at the time I noticed something was off (I started watching it but stopped there).

I have 19.9.3 and 436.51 installed now (respectively on the two machines) with Win10 1909. I think the main issue is an HDMI metadata error (the important part is the TV's OSD banner with the signal info): NV HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-V8ttDG3wyrAOUwVebg9MBeI5qxWKX5y) - AMD HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-AtK4cWOb0j8a-qkauxxNlz9v_rGdSuF) - AMD Win10-HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-9oOHIKu9Xz3I9hqj-Vyz1XV8jVSu6Vu). Windowed/exclusive doesn't make a difference with AMD HDR (I also tried turning the Game Bar off on the AMD system for this test).

I mean, if you're not using a 3Dlut, Nothing is where it should be anyway. So these comparisons are m00t. there's no reference for you to say , this looks oversaturated or undersaturated, you simply can't know that.

Your display could be pulling on red more than blue, and if you adjust saturation, it's drawing all the colors in a direction that's already skewed.

Again, you're entitled to an opinion of the image, but it's in reference to your visual taste and NOT to what the data actually intended.

If you care about ( the right ) Color, get an xrite, w/ 3dlut correction, this is a non-issue. :D

Well, I do have an i1Pro2 and an i1d3. Just so you know, I never cared to look at the colors with movie content on the AMD system before I noticed the strange readings in CalMAN (how the HDR mode seemed to be limited to Rec709 colors) during my last calibration attempts. Since that software is tied to a hardware ID I choose to install it on my AMD notebook (for flexibility) but I normally watch movies with the nVidia based PC (the TV is my PC monitor). That's when the comparisons started. After that I realized I can run madTPG on the nV PC while CalMAN is still running on the AMD notebook. That way I could finish the AutoCAL process with sane results.

On top of that, while using any calibration, no matter how bad, the same source should produce the same colors. The relative comparison makes some sense in this case anyways.

I can't get a decent HDR calibration done with the AMD notebook as a source device if it distorts the colors and limits the gamut to Rec709. You can surely agree with that.

[saracas]

Try setting present frames in advance to 1. That has fixed the issue for many. Using D3D9 presentation with 8-bit RGB output rather than D3D11 presentation has also fixed the issue for others

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

Thanks that seems to fix it.

[Alexkral]

The chroma quality set there is automatically matched to the luma quality, no need to change it specifically. If you leave it on "let madVR decide" (recommended) madVR will use the same selection as luma, however for the chroma component of NGU image upscaling "very high" actually uses NGU medium for doubling and low for quadrupling. The only thing to tune is possibly turning down the chroma quality a bit if you are almost able to run luma on high or very high, so setting chroma to medium or low might allow a higher luma setting.

The chroma setting there is less important than the 'chroma upscaling' option.

Just curious, is there any good reason for this? I mean, it seems equally important to me. The same would go to luma, not that madVR can do it but for 540p it seems to me that it should not be very different upscale to 1080p with Lanczos and then double with NGU, than double with NGU and then upscale to 2160p with Lanczos. Even the first option seems better because NGU would be doing most of the work.

[Asmodian]

The key point to understand is that upscaling does not increase detail and introduces artifacts. After upscaling each pixel represents less detail compared to the source pixels, so GPU effort is much better spent on earlier scaling steps. As you increase the resolution each individual pixel becomes less and less important.

You want NGU to start with the source pixels, not after lanczos, so it can preserve maximum detail and avoid upscaling artifacts. The second doubling step is much less important than the first.

I like using NGU high for chroma upscaling (the first doubling step for chroma) but using NGU medium for the second and especially NGU low for the third is much less important. By the third doubling doubling step I am forced to agree with the sentiments of tp4tissue, there really is no practical difference between using NGU high and lanczos3 or bicubic. :o

[Alexkral]

Thanks, perfectly understood.

[DMU]

I think the main issue is an HDMI metadata error (the important part is the TV's OSD banner with the signal info): NV HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-V8ttDG3wyrAOUwVebg9MBeI5qxWKX5y) - AMD HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-AtK4cWOb0j8a-qkauxxNlz9v_rGdSuF) - AMD Win10-HDR (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-9oOHIKu9Xz3I9hqj-Vyz1XV8jVSu6Vu).
Perhaps you are right. See the attachment (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E_uOjnrY02XJa9dL61zLLalse9jTi_cY).

[Atlantis]

I have Asus PB279Q. 100% sRGB.

What calibration should I choose in madVR? There is no sRGB.

[Asmodian]

What calibration should I choose in madVR? There is no sRGB.

sRGB = BT.709

[Atlantis]

Thanks.

[mclingo]

Perhaps you are right. See the attachment (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E_uOjnrY02XJa9dL61zLLalse9jTi_cY).


do you have anything set in the TV calibration section of MADVR, mine is now set to off, I previously had to calibrate to BT2020 due to a bug with AMD drivers with sub 60hz SDR material but i've never had an issue with HDR and still dont, all my comparisions look the same.

[DMU]

do you have anything set in the TV calibration section of MADVR
Hello. In madVR devices->calibration set "disable calibration control for this display and check "disable GPU gamma ramps".
Can you check on your TV there is a choice of colour gamut (BT.2020 or DCI-P3) for AMD HDR?
Thank you.

[mclingo]

Hello. In madVR devices->calibration set "disable calibration control for this display and check "disable GPU gamma ramps".
Can you check on your TV there is a choice of colour gamut (BT.2020 or DCI-P3) for AMD HDR?
Thank you.

There is a colour gamut optionb but its just normal or full, i'm guessing full is BT2020

A couple of other things:

- I'm not using the latest beta HDR stuff, just using stock MADVR v0.92.14

- I have passthru to display set and no other options set apart from send HDR meta to display

- i have calibration turned off and gamma ramps unticked.

- my TV behaves oddly when I set it to PC mode, colours are all off, i havent played with this for a while but thinking back I may have been getting something like you are, what is your TV set to as the input, mine is configured to just standard HDMI so not set to PC, bluray etc, try a different input name as this can actually change how the unput works, for instance when in PC mode a lot of my motion controls are disabled.

I gave my HTPC a thorough workout this weekend gone, watched loads of movies, SDR and HDR, not issues are at, no drops, repearts, black screens, crashes, odd colouration.

[mclingo]

yeah I was right, check this out, the top one is with identical settings PC, TV and MADVR with my TV input set to PC mode, bottom TV set to "HDMI", I also set it to "BLURAY" and it was also ok so, no idea why this is though but it looks like identical behavior to you, try changing your input mode.



https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBij4AFeZUKvAputzG6VA?e=lcXAog

[Alexkral]

Don't know why but NGU doesn't work for image upscaling with DVB-T sources. This is on Windows 7 with v.0.92.17 and JRiver or MPC-HC. It works for chroma upscaling, but for doubling when I select any NGU the OSD shows super-xbr.

[saracas]

What are the proper settings for 4K HDR BD Remuxes on an LG OLED? I have NVIDIA drivers set to "RGB Full" and MadVR set to "10bit or higher". I still see some banding in some scenes scenes. Maybe it's normal, but I don't remember seeing them on SDR 1080p BDs.

[ryrynz]

10bit likely isn't optimal for your screen.. As far as banding goes I believe only calibration is going to help you there.

[DMU]

try changing your input mode.
No image changes.

[VBB]

10bit likely isn't optimal for your screen.. As far as banding goes I believe only calibration is going to help you there.

8-bit is better than 10-bit with the OLEDs, yes. That will already help with banding, but using madVRs own de-banding on low/low will get rid of pretty much anything that's left. I use it on all content, and I hardly, if ever, see any banding these days.

[ryrynz]

The reason why I didn't mention that is because you're debanding the content not the presentation. Debanding content that doesn't require it leads to a decrease in picture quality. There has been many calls for madshi to implement a feature to help banding and black crush on OLEDs but I doubt we'll see that come to fruition.

[VBB]

I find that de-banding on low/low doesn't hurt picture quality at all, and is unfortunately necessary with most content, regardless of the display. It works really well, though.

[saracas]

8-bit is better than 10-bit with the OLEDs, yes. That will already help with banding, but using madVRs own de-banding on low/low will get rid of pretty much anything that's left. I use it on all content, and I hardly, if ever, see any banding these days.

So should I set MadVR to "8bit" for display or "10bit or higher" on LG OLED? I'm just leaving it Auto for now.

[SamuriHL]

If you're trying to get rid of banding, madvr and the nVidia control panel should both be set to 8 bit. Just make sure you're using one of the error diffusion dithering options in madvr. I don't think there's many of us LG OLED users driving the nVidia cards at 12 bit due to banding issues. You won't notice any quality loss using 8 bit with decent dithering.

[VBB]

Honestly, Error Diffusion is not necessary. Ordered will do the trick just fine. But yeah, RGB full + 8-bit everywhere. And definitely no PC mode ;)

And if you want a smoother experience, set your desktop to 60Hz, disable frame rate switching in madVR, and set smooth motion to "Always".

[Asmodian]

I actually prefer ordered dither over error diffusion on my OLEDs, both my C7 and C9. It could be placebo because the difference, if there really is one, is very subtle but it is odd because I was always a big fan of error diffusion dithering on my plasma and LCDs.

[SamuriHL]

I've been using error diffusion for quite a while. I suppose I could check out ordered again as it does reduce the processing power needed, as well.

[saracas]

Honestly, Error Diffusion is not necessary. Ordered will do the trick just fine. But yeah, RGB full + 8-bit everywhere. And definitely no PC mode ;)

And if you want a smoother experience, set your desktop to 60Hz, disable frame rate switching in madVR, and set smooth motion to "Always".

Yea, the PC mode flaws are annoying. I have a huge macro in my remote to rename the input every single time I watch HDR... then rename it back after I am done.

They really need to add a easier solution to switch in/out of PC mode.

[Siso]

A question about an option in nvidia control panel, does it affect madvr's video output levels, like doing unnecessary conversion of the output levels or double expansion etc., if I set it to (0-255)? I'm using PC levels (0-255) in madvr, my monitor is accepting 0-255 RGB inputs, and does it affect the players potplayer or mpc-be, I read it only affects vlc, I get washed colors in vlc with the default option showed in the screenshot.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f9/2a/FsZXmfAp_t.png (http://imgbox.com/FsZXmfAp)

[mclingo]

Yea, the PC mode flaws are annoying. I have a huge macro in my remote to rename the input every single time I watch HDR... then rename it back after I am done.

They really need to add a easier solution to switch in/out of PC mode.

i'm not familiar with this PC mode problem you're talking about, what is it?

Also, what content exactly has the banding so I can check, I generally dont see any banding on blurays at all and I dont use any debanding in MADVR.

Can you let me know which movie you are talking about with a specific scene?

[el Filou]

They really need to add a easier solution to switch in/out of PC mode.Hum no, they need to fix 4:4:4 RGB support so it doesn't suffer worse image quality than 4:2:2 YCC.

[thighhighs]

Yea, the PC mode flaws are annoying. I have a huge macro in my remote to rename the input every single time I watch HDR... then rename it back after I am done.

They really need to add a easier solution to switch in/out of PC mode.Why HDR playback should be affected at all in this mode? PC mode was designed for general desktop usage and gaming. Otherwise PC mode should do nothing.

[el Filou]

They're using a lower quality image processing in PC mode compared to other modes, so in practice you have to choose between 4:4:4 RGB and good image quality.

[mclingo]

Where are you setting this PC mode?

[chros]

Why HDR playback should be affected at all in this mode? PC mode was designed for general desktop usage and gaming. Otherwise PC mode should do nothing.

i'm not familiar with this PC mode problem you're talking about, what is it?
Read the first part of this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) and read the topic from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1882835#post1882835) couple of pages.

[Klaus1189]

RGB untouched by madVR and presented in PC mode should be the most accurate
Should yes, but this is an LG TV. :rolleyes:

RGB + PC mode + HDR is like the worst combination and produces terrible banding on the C8. :mad:

@jk82 is right, LG does some crazy things, e.g. there's no proper chroma 4:4:4 in PC mode at 4k resolution (and this is just 1 example). It seems it's more important for them to work on ABL algos than picture quality :devil:

Out of curiosity, how does these two pictures look on an LG OLED in PC Mode when displaying it at 100% size (1:1 Pixel)?
http://www.ozone3d.net/public/jegx/201412/chroma-subsampling-test-4k-tv.png
http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png
Some Makro photos of the screen using a camera would be interesting.

Only LG OLEDs are affected or also LCD based TVs from LG? Is it year depending?
How about Panasonic OLED or LCD TVs?

[mclingo]

Read the first part of this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) and read the topic from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1882835#post1882835) couple of pages.

right, got you, can be hard to follow stuff on here, my LG has issues in PC mode but these started quote late into the updates, probably only last year, it was fine initially, HDR also looks pap in PC mode on mine.

[saracas]

Now that the LG OLED C9s have GSYNC support coming, I hope they'll start focusing on the bugs PC mode has. I can confirm my C9 + PC Mode + HDR = Banding in both games and movies, same as my friend's C8.