madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[SirMaster]

I think the whole crew needs to carefully think on this product.

Lumagen's sales are not that great. If they were, it wouldn't be so damn expensive. The fact that it has remained so expensive indicates the company is still doing low volume and has very little purchasing power to get the price of the device ready for mass-market.

Upscaling is only sort of important, not something people care about outside of enthusiasts. This feature will be increasingly less valued, as we are getting more 4K content. Then going to 8K, it's going to be even less important, because even if the TV did only bilinear, 4K content bilneared to 8K will still look pretty damn sharp

Madvr's most unique feature is the 3DLut.

Even in the case of Tonemapping, it's good, but as display hardware catches up, its benefit will again be eroded. It's also not so complicated a thing that the BIG-Hardware houses like Sony with their unlimited resources can't replicate. The Sony team sent people to the Madvr's demo booth for a reason, they're getting ready to bite you. It's not an act of comradery.

We're GOING Into a decade of Recession and potentially Depression.

Madshi with a small team can do all of the maintenance, and retail on a piece of PC software.

With hardware the only difference to their workload is an extra set of middlemen to cut in and manage..

With the Entire set of circumstances

It seems far more prudent to charge $50 a pop for Madvr PC version.

$50 You can sell that to almost anyone, $50 @ 1 million people is $50,000,000.

At $1000 a pop, you'd have to sell 50,000 units to match. Are there even 50,000 high end projectors sold each year. And how much is the middlemen's cut .

Can we even move these machines IN A RECESSION, when millenials have resorted to buying Soundbars instead of speaker systems. We're seeing a market for 75" TVs as low as $800.

The required consumer education to convince someone that a $1000 machine is going to make their image quality better is also enormous.

A great product with a bad business plan is still a treacherous road.

It may not be the best business plan, but I think we can agree that any of those plans is still better than what he has been doing for the last 10+ years, developing madvR for 0 money.

[Blackwalker]

wait... i miss something i suppose!
madvr is closing?
i didnt check it for a while, work, family etc... whats happening?

[SamuriHL]

This is why I wish people would stop with the fear mongering because everything madshi says gets taken WAY out of context. What he said is that currently it's not yet known what the future holds for madvr. Previously he's said that there will always be a free version of madvr, but, his tone recently has changed because he now has business partners. Some people are taking the comments he made about not being sure yet what the future holds as doom and gloom and madvr is closing down. That has NOT been determined! There's a few factors to consider. One, madshi wants to continue madvr on the PC for one very good reason....the amount of testing that people put into it. There's a business case to be made there that allowing PC users to test out new functionality (even if it's limited compared to what ends up in the Envy) makes sense. Do you really want your customers that are paying 10 grand on a box to be your beta testers for new features? Now it may come down to a decision that they have to charge a fee for madvr going forward. But again, nothing has been decided and madshi has said that when the time is right (I.E. AFTER the public launch of Envy) then he and his business partners will discuss it.

TLDR: NO ONE, not even madshi, knows what the future holds for the free version of madvr. Anyone claiming otherwise is fear mongering.

[VBB]

Agree 100%

[tp4tissue]

Based on Madshi's post that Chros linked.

Paraphrase:
<<
Madshi's business partners do not want madshi to continue a full feature PC version, because , in the Partner's experience, Their Lumagen Hardware box sales TANKED , when a competing store began to sell Madvr equipped/specced HTPCs..

That is an extremely CLEAR statement. The MONEY when it comes to Hardware boxes REQUIRES Exclusivity, especially under their current pricing model.>>

I am merely stating that, given the Market and the certainty of the Recession, A Software Version will be easier to maintain, an easier sell, and doesn't require as much consumer education or live-middlemen.

It's not fear-mongering, we're following the money, that's the single thing a business responds to.

[SamuriHL]

That's awesome selective quoting you got going on there but whatever. Continue to spread nonsense if you wish. I'm out.

[ryrynz]

No point in speculation, play the waiting game.

[tp4tissue]

That's awesome selective quoting you got going on there but whatever. Continue to spread nonsense if you wish. I'm out.

What selective quoting. The partner stated very plainly and clearly their ACTUAL experience. Something that Actually happened, as the basis for why THEY do not want Madshi to maintain a full-featured PC version.

[SamuriHL]

Right, and you completely SKIPPED the part where madshi said that it was not HIS wish and something that they are going to discuss after the Envy is released. But whatever. There's no arguing with you and you'll continue to spread stupid nonsense so as I said, I'm out.

[nsnhd]

In term of what users want, which improvements you wish madVR could do in future ? I dont see that very clearly.

[cork_OS]

In term of what users want, which improvements you wish madVR could do in future ? I dont see that very clearly.
1. General software maintaining, compatibility with new OS builds and GPU drivers
2. NGU upscaling quality and speed improvements
3. HDR processing speed and quality improvements
4. Smooth motion improvements (Motion-Compensated Frame Interpolation)

[kettyo]

Guys, why aren't you rather very glad about the super product we've been using for years now for free?

Personally i wouldn't mind paying something to keep it going but of course i'd be sad to see it discontinued.

[chros]

No point in speculation
Why not? :) It doesn't happen much here anyway :)

NO ONE, not even madshi, knows what the future holds for the free version of madvr.
And that's the whole point of the conversation. :)

It may not be the best business plan, but I think we can agree that any of those plans is still better than what he has been doing for the last 10+ years, developing madvR for 0 money.
Errr, donation could have been already enabled in the early years.
But we have to see that at that time it was 1 of 100,000s hobby projects out there beside of his regular job (whether it's full time or contracting). Let alone, if you sell something then you have to do support.
I think he didn't think about this at all, probably an idea came to do this business and earn money. But I agree with @tp4tissue, software is way more easier (even in Win10 time).

In term of what users want, which improvements you wish madVR could do in future ?
If we only stick to current HDR development, this is what comes to mind:
- HDR10+ / HLG passthrough support (I don't even mention DoVi :) )
- fixing bug in madtpg with HDR10 output when processing bar is hidden

[jkauff]

Maybe the partners would be satisfied if the software version of madVR didn't include any HDR functionality (tone mapping in particular), and just did straight passthrough. None of madshi's test builds on AVS Forum are official, and so would not be supported in any way for those who managed to get a copy.

Madshi could then limit his madVR work to bug fixing and NGU improvements. It would in no way be in competition with or function as an alternative to Envy.

I think many of us here would support a $50 madVR version 1.0.

[tp4tissue]

Right, and you completely SKIPPED the part where madshi said that it was not HIS wish and something that they are going to discuss after the Envy is released. But whatever. There's no arguing with you.

There's no arguing with me, because you're wrong.

The partner has already made it clear what HAS Happened. This isn't mis-information, this is a stated fact.

The partner who sells lumagen got tanked sales when his competitor began selling madvr equipped / specced htpcs.

I've made no claim as to what will happen in the future.

I've only made the speculation that IF the team goes down the Hardware route, It is likely - but not definite- that we won't have full madvr features on software, or potentially a thoroughly discontinued pc side.

Finally, I've said, hardware @ those prices, is going to be a tough sell in the world wide Recession. Adding more middlemen makes hardware less profitable, and you'd be dependent on the sales/marketing capability or potentially lack there of, of that salesforce. Live-salesforce is also prone to regional saturation. there are only so many potential buyers in service locations.

We all want Madshi to succeed, that's why we're speculating, it is to supply consumer perspective/ information.

[cork_OS]

Personally i wouldn't mind paying something to keep it going but of course i'd be sad to see it discontinued.
Same here. I'm ready to pay for madVR reasonable amount of money (up to 100$), but not sure that it's development will be continued.

[clsid]

He has only said that the new advanced features of the Envy might not be coming to madVR. That doesn't mean there won't be improvements to the basic functionality of madVR. Nor does it mean there can't be a paid version of madVR with a subset of Envy features.

There are over 8 million MPC-HC users which also have madVR installed, of which the majority is not yet actively using it. So there is a huge potential for a larger active userbase. And thus a lot of potential for promoting the madVR/Envy brand and generating revenue from pro licenses.

First step should not be to add more features. It should be to have an additional simplified view of the settings for the less tech-savvy users. And smarter automatic configuration.

[tp4tissue]

There are over 8 million MPC-HC users which also have madVR installed, of which the majority is not yet actively using it.

clsid, are these numbers published anywhere ? the user for mpc and madvr

[clsid]

No. But based on facts I know of.

[Alexkral]

4. Smooth motion improvements (Motion-Compensated Frame Interpolation)

AI frame interpolation would be great, but it's hard to do it in real time and I don't think madshi is very interested anyway.

[SirMaster]

AI frame interpolation would be great, but it's hard to do it in real time and I don't think madshi is very interested anyway.

But most TVs only support 60Hz input (which isn't a multiple of 24fps), so I don't see how you would do any good motion interpolation outside the display.

Motion interpolation on TVs usually happens at 120 or 240Hz internally.

[SirMaster]

madshi never said he wouldn't maintain the free madVR software.

He only said that he might not add new algorithms to the free software. That has yet to be thought about and determined. He also said that he wouldn't be against a paid pro version of the HTPC software.

[huhn]

240 HZ interpolation is marketing is wasn't possible get this refreshrate on A PC screens the first 240 HZ VA is "just" released.
even TN panels have some troubles with 240.

[tp4tissue]

AI frame interpolation would be great, but it's hard to do it in real time and I don't think madshi is very interested anyway.
Madvr AI Render Cluster, $200,000 4x Titan RTX + 2x AMD Epyc Milan 64c/128t (128c/256t)

[Alexkral]

At least for Super Resolution the models can always be reduced, less layers, less filters... Look at the FSRCNNX shaders.

[mclingo]

I have to admit I also think the hardware route is going to turn out to be a mistake for many reasons already covered, I think it would have been a better idea to develop a full movie player package with MADVR at its heart and sell that along with a stand alone license for use with other players, the stand alone license would be a few bucks cheaper. Having a multi tier license / player would then pull in cash from enthusiasts like us but also those people who want to just plug and play but have the best quality possible, and all those in between. He could have done that all himself and not required any partners or backers.

But Madshi probably isnt doing this to get rich, he's doing what he wants to do and enjoying himself so we should respect that and wish him well as i'm sure we all do. :)

[wasper]

Hello everyone,

I need some helps. I have an Intel card GPU is able to do HEVC decoding at 4K 10 bits. I have a video that is HDR 59fpf at 4k. This video play just fine n VLC. I can't play it in MADVR. The problem is probably related to the use of the GPU for decoding.

LAV at 0.74.1

The left pane is the use of the GPU by VLC, the right pane by MADVR. Any idea why isn't using gpu like VLC?

https://i.imgur.com/ifZC0VR.png

[wolfman2791]

I'd pay a subscription without blinking if it would keep madvr going....

[Asmodian]

Any idea why isn't using gpu like VLC?

Have you enabled hardware decoding in LAV Video?

[wolfman2791]

So.... madvr free version is going to stop or get watered down very likely. How about madvr for jriver?

[huhn]

these are just assumptions there is no decision made yet.

[el Filou]

I have an Intel card GPU is able to do HEVC decoding at 4K 10 bits. I have a video that is HDR 59fpf at 4k. This video play just fine n VLC. I can't play it in MADVR.Could you detail what you mean by "can't play it"? Does the video plays but drops a lot of frames? Or you have a black screen or an error?
Please post a screenshot of the madVR OSD (Ctrl+J) during playback.
There is video decode engine usage on your right screenshot too so hardware decode must be used with madVR too.

[Maryoum]

Did Nvidia fix the HDR with player UI issue? I want to update to the latest drivers to play some games but I don't want to ruin MadVR HDR.

[VBB]

How could they have fixed it already when the driver that broke it came out just last week? It will probably take months. Not like they prioritize HTPC issues...

Also, it's not like this breaks madVR or playback in any way. Simply avoid triggering the UI while you're watching.

[ryrynz]

Did Nvidia fix the HDR with player UI issue?

Just run your screen in 8 bit color depth problem solved.. Hell you're probably in 8 bit anyway..

[JarrettH]

1. General software maintaining, compatibility with new OS builds and GPU drivers
2. NGU upscaling quality and speed improvements
3. HDR processing speed and quality improvements
4. Smooth motion improvements (Motion-Compensated Frame Interpolation)

Yes! I would like to see speed improvements and I know madshi said this was possible. I'd like smooth motion to more resemble the original video too (sharpness/detail).

[ikarad]

The future of madvr is not that promising at this point :) link (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/3053602-madvr-envy-anticipation-thread-71.html#post59346246), link (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/3053602-madvr-envy-anticipation-thread-73.html#post59405260)
The only good thing about it is that we don't have to buy new GPUs :)

one question: Why madshi post on avsforum and not here?

new version of madvr pc version is cancelled ?

[ikarad]

Try the latest 113 beta build and make sure you don't have smooth motion or or it'll crash, it should mostly resolve those issues provided there are no issues with your televisions processing or the rip itself.

Where can we download this beta build?

[Blackwalker]

This is why I wish people would stop with the fear mongering because everything madshi says gets taken WAY out of context. What he said is that currently it's not yet known what the future holds for madvr. Previously he's said that there will always be a free version of madvr, but, his tone recently has changed because he now has business partners. Some people are taking the comments he made about not being sure yet what the future holds as doom and gloom and madvr is closing down. That has NOT been determined! There's a few factors to consider. One, madshi wants to continue madvr on the PC for one very good reason....the amount of testing that people put into it. There's a business case to be made there that allowing PC users to test out new functionality (even if it's limited compared to what ends up in the Envy) makes sense. Do you really want your customers that are paying 10 grand on a box to be your beta testers for new features? Now it may come down to a decision that they have to charge a fee for madvr going forward. But again, nothing has been decided and madshi has said that when the time is right (I.E. AFTER the public launch of Envy) then he and his business partners will discuss it.

TLDR: NO ONE, not even madshi, knows what the future holds for the free version of madvr. Anyone claiming otherwise is fear mongering.

look, I just asked what happens, I don't want to feed anything, stay calm. Since I haven't connected for a long time, reading the last comments I asked what happens, thats all!

I'd pay a subscription without blinking if it would keep madvr going....

same here!



I don't know what happened and what will happen.
The software owner will decide, and any choice must be respected.
Will it be paid? If you want to buy it ok, don't you want to pay? you can use another software. This has happened since the dawn of time!

[ryrynz]

Thread derailed. RIP.

[HauteTension]

I think, given that this software has not been developing at all for almost two years now.
And the author of the program spoke quite definitely about of the future free version.
There are fewer and fewer who do not believe that MadVR is DeadVR :)

In my opinion:

1) Of course, the Madshi business plan, which hopes to sell for $10K that costs $ 0, is complete nonsense.
Moreover, even after two years, his product is still not ready.
And when it is ready, the world will have time to change to such an extent that it will not be ready to buy such solutions :)

2) The death of MadVR - in my opinion, this is a very nice event :)

3) Because, firstly, frankly, closed software is arbitrarily wonderful,
behind which there is only one person - it is always very bad.
Relatively speaking.
Imagine the only author of the program falls under the tram.
This also completely ends the life of its software.
Is this a good, reliable at all?

Secondly, technologically MadVR - lagged behind real modern hardware capabilities for a long time.
It has not been developing at all for two years now, in that area where even one month is a whole revolution!

4) I hope the current situation with MadVR and the lessons we learned from this whole story,
will be a very serious incentive for the development of alternative projects.
It's time to understand, realize and accept: MadVR - is no more.
It`s died.
There were wonderful for 10 years, everyone is very grateful to the author.
But this times are over.

5) Of course, it strikes me that the whole world, the whole huge planet Earth, with a population of 8 billion people.
for 10 years, there was only one crazy programmer who made such a solution.
Of course, 90% of it consisted of another people`s algorithms made under opensource.
He was basically impossible to sell it :)

6) Now that the industry, in direct terms, bought the creator of MadVR and blocked his work.
It's time to start a serious project that can significantly surpass the previous solution in terms of quality and capabilities.
We can do something a lot. Much better.
It is important not to repeat the fatal errors of the MadVR project initially :)

[Klaus1189]

It is important not to repeat the fatal errors of the MadVR project initially :)

What do you mean with that? :confused:

[HauteTension]

Fundamental, fatal, errors of "MadVR Project" are:

- Completely closed code
- One and only developer
- Any development of the project always depended on the goodwill of one person

Now the whole huge community is reaping the fruits of these, originally laid down in the project of hidden pits.

[QBhd]

Isn't it amazing that it is only people who have never spoken or helped or contributed to a project are always the ones that come in later and make demands and claims and start "the sky is falling" talk?

I mean 5 posts and you are now an authority on madVR and it's development?

Please...

QB

[mclingo]

[QUOTE=
It's time to start a serious project that can significantly surpass the previous solution in terms of quality and capabilities.
:)[/QUOTE]

cant wait to see what you have in store for everyone.

[MS-DOS]

Parasites are all the same ;)

[SamuriHL]

look, I just asked what happens, I don't want to feed anything, stay calm. Since I haven't connected for a long time, reading the last comments I asked what happens, thats all!


My response wasn't directed at you. It was directed at all the people who think their "speculative opinion" is fact and present it as such. I've no issue with what you asked at all.

[SamuriHL]

I think, given that this software has not been developing at all for almost two years now.


Sorry, but this isn't even remotely true.

[jkauff]

Madshi has obviously done a tremendous amount of work over the last year or two. However, we on this forum are no longer his testers. The new ones are on the AVSForum, and generally have expensive projector-based home theater systems. They test madshi's amazing HDR tone mapping work, among other new features.

The people here who have such systems have moved to the other forum. We feel abandoned because we have no new features to test.

However madVR development goes, we still have a stable 0.92.17 release that does magical things. For free.

[ABDO]

It's time to understand, realize and accept: MadVR - is no more.
It`s died.

If you knew Madshi well, then you will knew that it is not that kind of people at all. If his project had died, he would have said that so frankly and clearly