madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[blu3wh0]

You can set madVR to tone map and then pass the result to the display in PQ with HDR metadata. But you would have to find a target nits that disables the display's own tone mapping. And, even then, the display might still alter the input in unwanted ways. You would have to experiment with this setting in the hdr menu (process by pixel shader math).

HDR -> SDR can output to any brightness or color gamut. The problem is your SDR calibration would have to balance both formats. SDR is most accurate close to 100 nits, while HDR is most accurate close to 1,000 or 4,000 nits. So it isn't easy to balance the two with a reasonably bright display.

Thanks, that's why I would prefer to keep the two separated. But you say SDR can output to any brightness or color gamut, but how would that actually work on my TV in SDR mode while maintaining peak brightness and bt.2020? I can't say that's something I've ever thought to try or calibrate towards. Would this result in an image with the same peak brightness and color gamut that HDR mode and source could provide (aside from the fact that tone-mapping would be different, but I would have control over it)?

[Warner306]

Thanks, that's why I would prefer to keep the two separated. But you say SDR can output to any brightness or color gamut, but how would that actually work on my TV in SDR mode while maintaining peak brightness and bt.2020? I can't say that's something I've ever thought to try or calibrate towards. Would this result in an image with the same peak brightness and color gamut that HDR mode and source could provide (aside from the fact that tone-mapping would be different, but I would have control over it)?

You get the brightness of your display's SDR calibration, whatever that might be. It would not be as bright as HDR mode, unless you turn the backlight all the way up to the maximum.

The gamut would have to also be shared between the two formats unless your display has a setting to display each gamut accurately without a conversion.

You could create two profiles:

If (HDR) "BT.2020"
else "BT.709"

[blu3wh0]

Sorry, that's not quite what I meant and this might be a TV specific question. With this conversion, can I make my SDR mode perform like the HDR mode, minus the tone-mapping that would be done by MadVR now, if I calibrate it to max brightness and output in bt.2020? Or would using HDR mode still be the best option, especially on my TV? I ask because HDR mode is a bit finicky and I have a lot less control over the calibration.

[Warner306]

Sorry, that's not quite what I meant and this might be a TV specific question. With this conversion, can I make my SDR mode perform like the HDR mode, minus the tone-mapping that would be done by MadVR now, if I calibrate it to max brightness and output in bt.2020? Or would using HDR mode still be the best option, especially on my TV? I ask because HDR mode is a bit finicky and I have a lot less control over the calibration.

You could calibrate SDR mode to the maximum brightness. But your gamma curve would likely be less accurate, and this would harm the HDR -> SDR conversion. SDR content would also look terrible.

[blu3wh0]

I can have different TV profiles for normal SDR, so I'm not concerned about that. But it sounds like this conversion isn't really designed for improving tone-mapping in HDR mode on a TV that does it decently enough.

[Warner306]

I can have different TV profiles for normal SDR, so I'm not concerned about that. But it sounds like this conversion isn't really designed for improving tone-mapping in HDR mode on a TV that does it decently enough.

You should try the process by pixel shader option and see if it works harmoniously with your TV. Without the ability to disable the display's tone mapping, it is hard to provide tone mapping for a display that enforces its own PQ curve. A 3D LUT can make adjustments working with the display's HDR mode, but it is a fixed curve for all videos.

It is a better option for a projector. Some still choose to use HDR -> SDR by sacrificing some brightness with HDR content for madVR's tone mapping. It partly depends on the brightness of your display in HDR mode.

[huhn]

I'll do some testing with the doubling, is SSIM 1D 100%+ scale in linear light and AR-relaxed a good downscaler?

i personally don't like bicubic 150 but that should be more than good enough. there is the possibility to scale chroma and luma differently which may not work with super xbr so NGU low maybe has the upper in this case.

[mclingo]

A noisy fan is common.....

yeah already doing that with argus monitor, useful little all in one fan controller tool, my GPU runs at 20% until it hits 60 degrees, it steadily climbs from there.

I've also logged a ticket with saffire to see if i have a fault with the fans or whether I can buy any quieter versions, its a current card so hoping I can.

cheers,


EDIT - got my figures way off, must have been thinking about another card. My current sapphire rx 580 nitro+ 4gb is only silent under 40% fan, if I run MADVR at NGU sharp high for both upscale and chroma it taxes my card about 70% GPU.

I've found that if I set me fan curve to to run at 40% fan right up to 80 degrees it remains at a stable 75 degrees whilst running fairly silent, this was with a 4k HDR movie which seems to tax the card much more than upscaling from 480p to 4k for some reason... go figure...

[KoKlusz]

You get the brightness of your display's SDR calibration, whatever that might be. It would not be as bright as HDR mode, unless you turn the backlight all the way up to the maximum.

It's still won't be enough. Consumer level oleds peak around 480 nits when not using internal HDR mode. I guess this is for power efficiency reasons or/and to prevent burn-in.

[Manni]

actually currently no video card could run the highest setting of madvr-upscaling, like upscaling a 480p video to 4k, even the 1080ti drops a lot frames, my friend tests it with a common anime video (x264, 500MB, 20mins)

I have no idea what you're talking about, I upscale 480p video to 4K with my 1080ti and I don't drop any frame. Of course, I don't use the same settings as for 1080p or 4K, but that's what profiles are for.

In any case, this has NOTHING to do with the build you linked to, which is an experimental build for HDR conversion with pixel shader.

I'm only saying, please post here about official builds, and there if you can help the work in progress instead of wasting our time.

If you have any questions about upscaling 480p content, feel free to ask here but don't use an experimental build that had a bug to make a point. It's ridiculous.

[foobar2000]

We could say the highest upscaling section in madvr surely is a monster, 1080ti basically deals with every games but it can't 100% smoothly run the ultimate upscaling setting at all, not even close. My friend just pre-ordered the 2080ti, but he doesn't think the new card could break the ice, madvr is already another 3DMark...

[nussman]

Yes madVR has some demanding filters for video processing. So what? Some algo’s for video processing even can not be done in realtime at the moment. So please stop posting nonsense ...

[el Filou]

foobar2000 is a troll

[Asmodian]

actually currently no video card could run the highest setting of madvr-upscaling, like upscaling a 480p video to 4k, even the 1080ti drops a lot frames, my friend tests it with a common anime video (x264, 500MB, 20mins)

We are already very close with the 1080 Ti. My Titan X (Pascal) can run 480p30 -> 4K with NGU AA very high chroma upscaling, debanding & RCA, doubling twice with NGU Sharp very high, upscaling with Jinc, smooth motion, and ED1 dithering. My card is watercooled and overclocked, and I have soldered extra resistors to the current monitoring circuit to double the available power, but madVR didn't go above 120% power too often even before that. :p

720p -> 4K is harder, I need to use NGU high for the quadrupling step. However, NGU high is a lot faster than very high for a very small difference in quality, a 2080 Ti might be give more headroom but it wouldn't improve quality noticeably for anything <60fps.

[ryrynz]

We are already very close with the 1080 Ti. My Titan X (Pascal) can run 480p30 -> 4K with NGU AA very high chroma

Why NGU Very High for chroma? you know that's taboo around here. I actually didn't notice it was you posting this at first haha.

When the time comes for Avisynth/Vapoursynth you guys upscaling 480ish anime are gonna love Awarpsharpen, blows the pants off NGU sharp.
I have a fairly simple script that does wonders for 720 and 480 animated content and you mix that with NGU AA and it's just amazing ^.^

[Asmodian]

I always use NGU high for chroma when actually watching things. :)

But the GPU is easily capable of using very high for chroma if desired (chroma upscaling isn't very hard with 480p anyway). I have a lot of headroom with my normal 480p30 settings. I also usually use NGU AA. I don't like Awarpsharpen or NGU Sharp that much, they can change the look of the lines too much. Old SD Anime is supposed to look like old SD Anime. :p

Using RCA high + NGU AA very high quadrupling can get a little tricky though, sometimes RCA High + NGU Sharp looks better than NGU AA to me (it takes a bit more GPU power too).

[Siso]

i personally don't like bicubic 150 but that should be more than good enough. there is the possibility to scale chroma and luma differently which may not work with super xbr so NGU low maybe has the upper in this case.

I did some testing last night with doubling using NGU low-standart for both luma and chroma+error diffusion 1 and for downscaling ssim 1D-ll+ar.

Rendering times for 2.40:1 movies are ~17 ms GPU load ~ 42%, for 1.85:1 are ~20 ms GPU load ~ 50%. The question is it really good idea to use error diffusion 1 for dithering, which bumps up the rendering times plus 3-4 ms, or to use ordered dithering?

[ryrynz]

Difference is minimal but if you got nothing else to spend the available card performance on then I'd use it. ~20 is still on the low side for 24fps.

[Sunset1982]

I've got a question for those of you with AMD crads...

Is there anything I need to know when I want to change my nvidia and use a amd rx480 instead?

I need the more powerful gtx1070 in my gaming rig.

Is 23,976 working with amd? what about hdr switching?

[Siso]

Difference is minimal but if you got nothing else to spend the available card performance on then I'd use it. ~20 is still on the low side for 24fps.

Then I guess, I'll leave error diffusion 1 on, and basically these are my optimal settings for GTX 1050 ti. Will test more to see if there are dropped or delayed frames.

[mclingo]

I've got a question for those of you with AMD crads...


HDR switching is now working with the latest driver but wasnt for a few versions, i'm currently using 18.8.1, seems very stable.

There does seem to be an issue with colour space though which i've logged to AMD. For some reason 23,976 SDR playback can massively overblow colours in some setups, not all, it does it with mine. There is an easy fix though, just callibrate for a BT2020 display in MADVR. This doesnt affect HDR playback or playback at 60hz and may not happen if you put your TV in PC mode, I use BLURAY mode to get access to motion interpolation which isnt available on PC mode on my TV for some reason (2015 LG OLED).

otherwise 23,976 playback is solid, frames skips / repeats are measured in days on my system, even for 3D MVC playback.

You should be able to get NGU high running on the 480 for both upscaling and chroma as its very similar to my RX 580 card.

[Sunset1982]

HDR switching is now working with the latest driver but wasnt for a few versions, i'm currently using 18.8.1, seems very stable.

There does seem to be an issue with colour space though which i've logged to AMD. For some reason 23,976 SDR playback can massively overblow colours in some setups, not all, it does it with mine. There is an easy fix though, just callibrate for a BT2020 display in MADVR. This doesnt affect HDR playback or playback at 60hz and may not happen if you put your TV in PC mode, I use BLURAY mode to get access to motion interpolation which isnt available on PC mode on my TV for some reason (2015 LG OLED).

otherwise 23,976 playback is solid, frames skips / repeats are measured in days on my system, even for 3D MVC playback.

You should be able to get NGU high running on the 480 for both upscaling and chroma as its very similar to my RX 580 card.

Ok, sounds good. Thank you! Pc mode only works with 60Hz on my LG Oled, not in 24Hz. But I will give it a try...

Are you on Win 10? Which Version? I am still on 1709 and I don't know if I should update Windows...

[HillieSan]

Hi sunset1982, I am still using my RX 480 and all works well. I don't use HDR much.

[Siso]

What is the difference in the doubling options:

"...only if any upscaling is needed" and "...always - supersampling"?

[mclingo]

Ok, .....

win 10 1709 here too, not risking the change myself, very happy with my system at the moment, dont want to spoil it.

[el Filou]

@Siso supersampling will always double and then downscale, even if the source definition is equal or higher than the display definition

[Siso]

@Siso supersampling will always double and then downscale, even if the source definition is equal or higher than the display definition

I see, thank you. So if I upscale 1080p only, I'm good with "...only if any upscaling is needed", right?

[el Filou]

"...only if any upscaling is needed" will always double as soon as the source definition is smaller than the display, e.g. if you have a 1920x1080 source and a 2560x1440 display it will still use doubling.

[Siso]

"...only if any upscaling is needed" will always double as soon as the source definition is smaller than the display, e.g. if you have a 1920x1080 source and a 2560x1440 display it will still use doubling.

I see, thanks mate.

[Asmodian]

Where "...only if any upscaling is needed" gets problematic is cropped video that almost matches the display resolution, like slightly cropped 1080p on a 1080p display. You usually do not want to double 1440x1046 before downscaling it for a 1920x1080 display.

[Siso]

Where "...only if any upscaling is needed" gets problematic is cropped video that almost matches the display resolution, like slightly cropped 1080p on a 1080p display. You usually do not want to double 1440x1046 before downscaling it for a 1920x1080 display.

In that case you suggest using "always supersampling"?

[huhn]

the opposite a scaling factor of 1.2 or 1.5 to avoid doubling for a couple of pixels.

you don't have to think to much about this there are not a lot of files out there that are between 1080-1440p so this doesn't really effect you

[Siso]

the opposite a scaling factor of 1.2 or 1.5 to avoid doubling for a couple of pixels.

you don't have to think to much about this there are not a lot of files out there that are between 1080-1440p so this doesn't really effect you

Got it, thanks. :)

[Sunset1982]

ok, thx HilliSan & MCLingo, I will give it a try today...


Edit: Changed my cards and it does not work as intended. Adrenalin 18.8.2 does not allow me to change to RGB and olny shows YCBCR (when I am on 4K & 60hz), only when I manually change to 24 Hz I can change to RGB Full.

And HDR mode of my tv is not triggered. Madvr shows amd hdr, but my tv won't change to hdr mode, the colors are also washed out when madvr shows amd hdr.

already reinstalled adrenalin driver several times, nothing changed... Now I will tr to update my system to win1804, maybe this brings the solution.

[mclingo]

ok, thx HilliSan & MCLingo, I will give it a try today...


Edit: Changed my cards and it does not work as intended. Adrenalin 18.8.2 does not allow me to change to RGB and olny shows YCBCR (when I am on 4K & 60hz), only when I manually change to 24 Hz I can change to RGB Full.

And HDR mode of my tv is not triggered. Madvr shows amd hdr, but my tv won't change to hdr mode, the colors are also washed out when madvr shows amd hdr.

already reinstalled adrenalin driver several times, nothing changed... Now I will tr to update my system to win1804, maybe this brings the solution.

Assume you are talking about your PC desktop here, mine is currently set 4k 60hz FULL RGB 4:4:4 8 bit (can only get 10/12 bit sub 4:4:4 mode), so no problems here for me. Did you do a full driver wipe in between?

Also Check your TV HDMI port is defo set to deep colour on, if you are using a different port you might not have changed it.

lastly make sure you full HDMI cable path is 18gbps HDMI 2.0


DONT UPDATE WINDOWS 10, you are just introducing another complication here which will make this more difficult to solve

[huhn]

Edit: Changed my cards and it does not work as intended. Adrenalin 18.8.2 does not allow me to change to RGB and olny shows YCBCR (when I am on 4K & 60hz), only when I manually change to 24 Hz I can change to RGB Full.

change the bit deep to 8 bit first and it should work.

[iSeries]

Same situation here but you dom't have to loose 12bits.
Do this: get CRU custom resolution utility.
Write down the front and back porch that madvr is using along with sync width.

Open cru, in detailed resolution add 3840x2160 23.000 with the information provided by madvr.
Click ok.
Press up so 3840x2160 23 will be right under 3840x2160 60.
Click ok
Use restart 64 or 32 depending on your system.

After the restart you will see 3840x2160 under PC resolution.

First under hd resolution, set 3840x2160 23 RGB Full dynamic range and 12bits for 23hz.
The custom resolution will be named 24hz.
Change it.
And now go to pc resolution and change to 3840x2160 24hz.

And that's what I did here to have custom timing and 12bits.

Hi, I'm trying this with CRU - however, when I put in the horizontal front porch number from MadVR (1276), the font changes to red in CRU and won't let me click ok. Anyone know why?

[Sunset1982]

DONT UPDATE WINDOWS 10, you are just introducing another complication here which will make this more difficult to solve

What kind of complications?



@Huhn:

I am on 8 Bit. Can't change it to any other bitdepth. Cables are ok and worked with my gtx1070 in 4k, 60Hz, RGB Full.

I will try to Clean my system from old drivers and reinstall it again. Will report back.

[sauma144]

@madshi
Did you plan to create a SRGAN/ESRGAN like image doubler?

[Sunset1982]

ok, I reinstalled my system and now 60hz, Full RGB is working.

But HDR mode isn't triggering my tv to switch into HDR Mode.

Passtrough and HDR Metadata send is aktivated.

If I let madvr automaticly choose the hdr mode, it converts hdr to sdr and don't uses the tv's hdr mode too.

is anyone here using a amd card with a LG OLED? is this confirmed to work together?

My gtx switches into hdr and triggers my tv corretly...

[foobar2000]

gpu performance
@madshi hi madshi could you improve the efficiency of madvr, beacuse with 1080ti highest setting to upsale a common 480p video to 4k screen makes fps drops to less 10... that's nightmare, madvr eats up too much gpu, maybe it's due to efficiency problem?

[mclingo]

ok, I reinstalled my system and now 60hz, Full RGB is working.

But HDR mode isn't triggering my tv to switch into HDR Mode.

Passtrough and HDR Metadata send is aktivated.

If I let madvr automaticly choose the hdr mode, it converts hdr to sdr and don't uses the tv's hdr mode too.

is anyone here using a amd card with a LG OLED? is this confirmed to work together?

My gtx switches into hdr and triggers my tv corretly...

AMD did break this quite recently but fixed it again with 18.8.1, i havent tried 18.8.2 yet as I never update drivers unless there is a good reason too these days.

Other than that you may still have something setup wrong.

other than general settings these are the only other prerequisites I am aware of with AMD cards.

- is you OLED setup in MADVR as 10bit or higher?
- do you have use Direct3D 11 for presentation (windows 7 and new) ticked - this is required.

Mine also stops working if either of these are not applied.

[veggav]

Hi, I'm trying this with CRU - however, when I put in the horizontal front porch number from MadVR (1276), the font changes to red in CRU and won't let me click ok. Anyone know why?

You can play around with the numbers but I think the front porch is what it is.
There must be something wrong on your side somewhere.

Post a screenshot of the MadVR setting timings that work and what you are trying to do in CRU.

[Sunset1982]

- is you OLED setup in MADVR as 10bit or higher?
- do you have use Direct3D 11 for presentation (windows 7 and new) ticked - this is required.

Does it have to be in 10 Bit mode?

[ABDO]

@madshi
Did you plan to create a SRGAN/ESRGAN like image doubler?
i do not think it is possible with today gpu power, srgan take much gpu power and alot of time to upscale one frame to 4x scale, topaz make fantastic srgan and denois upscale standalone app ( artificial intelligence Gigapixel ) it make amazing result, but as usual it is very slow and can not use in real time upscal, maybe some day madshi can use his magic and found way to make it run 100x faster :D:p

[Warner306]

ok, I reinstalled my system and now 60hz, Full RGB is working.

But HDR mode isn't triggering my tv to switch into HDR Mode.

Passtrough and HDR Metadata send is aktivated.

If I let madvr automaticly choose the hdr mode, it converts hdr to sdr and don't uses the tv's hdr mode too.

is anyone here using a amd card with a LG OLED? is this confirmed to work together?

My gtx switches into hdr and triggers my tv corretly...

Is your LG TV the active device in the madVR control panel? If the let madVR decide option is converting to SDR, it must not be reading HDR compatibility for the display. HDR compatibility should be indicated under the EDID data for the device in the control panel.

[Klaus1189]

ok, I reinstalled my system and now 60hz, Full RGB is working.

Did you get 3840x2160@60Hz RGB 10 bit out of HDMI port of your Nvidia GTX 1070??

[Sunset1982]

Did you get 3840x2160@60Hz RGB 10 bit out of HDMI port of your Nvidia GTX 1070??

no, just 23hz, 10bit, UHD or 8bit with 60hz

[Sunset1982]

Is your LG TV the active device in the madVR control panel? If the let madVR decide option is converting to SDR, it must not be reading HDR compatibility for the display. HDR compatibility should be indicated under the EDID data for the device in the control panel.

I will have a look. Maybe it is because it is going passthrough through my avr (denon X4200)

[nevcairiel]

Did you get 3840x2160@60Hz RGB 10 bit out of HDMI port of your Nvidia GTX 1070??

This is an impossible combination with HDMI 2.0 on such cards. The physics won't let you.