madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[AngelGraves13]

4X NGU looks great and much better than the previous method of doubling twice, which produced sharp edges.

[wysiwygbg]

Hello nice people :).

I've been fiddling around with 3D for some time, and lately I wanted to get away from PowerDVD and TMT for playing 3D BluRays.

I've taken the time to read some instructions and contacted a friend of mine who also is using alternative players, and after some chatting yesterday we got to a problem that apparently I'm having. So what we both did is:
Installed MPC-HC 1.7.10
Installed LAV filters 0.69
Installed madVR 0.91.4

At his place he has a HDMI 1.4 capable 3D display, and everything started working almost immediately, with no specifics with the settings.

However at my place I'm running a HDMI 1.3 capable 3D display (Panasonic Viera TC-P65VT30) which is working fine with PowerDVD and TMT, but won't work at all with madVR.

I was wondering if madVR supports frame interleave playback instead of frame packed playback, so it somehow could work properly with my display?

Thank you in advance for any advice you give me :).

[Asmodian]

madVR v0.91.5 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* added direct 4x NGU upscalers

Wow, I am very impressed by NGU x4 for SD content! Much of the very bad amplification of artifacts I noticed when upscaling 640x480 -> 4K is gone! I would love to see a x3 version, even if it was the same speed and power, for 720p -> 4K. :D

It still shows artifacts much more than NNEDI3 256 but NNEDI3 is noticeably softer too. NGU x4 requires a very high quality source for SD but with one I like the look more than NNEDI3. :)

I will probably still use NNEDI3 by default for SD though, most of my SD sources have too much edge noise. :(

I also want to note your very impressive work on "ShowRenderSteps" in the previous version; rendering seems the same speed as without it and I see some filter passes taking as little as 0.04 ms. :cool:

edit:
I was wondering if madVR supports frame interleave playback instead of frame packed playback, so it somehow could work properly with my display?

In the properties of your display device there is a 3D format section: auto, side-by-side, top-and-bottom, row alternative, column alternative. Also a swap left / right eye option.

No frame interleave. :(

[wysiwygbg]

In the properties of your display device there is a 3D format section: auto, side-by-side, top-and-bottom, row alternative, column alternative. Also a swap left / right eye option.

No frame interleave. :(

Yeah, I've already tried all of the above and none of them work. So is there going to be frame interleave support in the foreseeable future? Does this mean that all TV sets made before 2012, and working with HDMI 1.3, are currently unsupported by madVR for watching 3D?

[Asmodian]

I remember madshi saying there weren't any plans to support frame interleaved 3D. There was a technical issue if I remember correctly?

So yes, all 3D TVs with HDMI 1.3 aren't supported.

[pose]

madVR v0.91.5 released
madshi, with chroma doubling set to normal NGU now puts much less strain on my RX 470. Now i can use NGU very high comfortable!

[Backflash]

I run SR2 with some sources and couldn't understand why it doesn't quadro for me, apparently direct x4 NGU doesn't work if you have superres enabled in refinement.

Besides this little bug(?) it runs way better, I can do very high easily now on SD stuff. what was 18ms at high now 13ms at veryhigh

Can't say if it's softer yet, but what if we have a check box for NGU like with SSIM relaxed-strict(soft) because as this forum shows there is two distinct camps that like soft and sharp images and do not understand each other at all.
I'm in sharp camp, and option like that would be nice.

[SpasV]

... if madVR supports frame interleave playback instead of frame packed playback, ...

I think it is better to say 3D frame sequential mode -
(sending alternating left and right eye image frames) - which is the known name in the 3D TV formats (frame sequential, frame packing).

PowerDVD supports this mode not having the option frame sequential but HDMI 1.4, which actually is frame packing.

[fedpul]

Hi madshi, I have found that if I use NGU very high instead of quadrupling it keeps doubling twice, it works well with medium and high though. Using low just reports NGU low (without 4x) but it may be an OSD trouble. But I am sure that very high quadrupling it is not working well in my case because it is sharper than quadrupling with high. Thanks for this release, quadrupling looks great with SD content. Also please don't forget to add LL to OSD and adding an option to prevent auto quadrupling. Thank in advance for your hard work.

[pose]

Is it normal to have multiple madHcCtrl.exe running while playing a video?

[alexnt]

Catmull-Rom is Cubic -> Bicubic50, but you don't use downscaling when watching 720p or 1080p on a 1080p display.

Jinc is always 3 taps now, the 4+ options have been removed because they only made the quality worse.

Image doubling is set in Image Upscaling now, simply choose a doubling algorithm (super-xbr, NNEDI3, NGU). I recommend you test NGU for yourself, for 720p -> 1080p it is more subtle, but it is madshi's amazing new scaler that is very sharp but without artifacts. It runs quite well on the r9 290.

edit: DX11 is the preferred option for AMD GPUs. AMD just seems to like directX 11 more, there have been many user reports of issues with the various DX9 modes and AMD GPUs.

Thank you for the information. So , I set chroma upscaling-> jinc and image downscaling-> catmull-rom.
For image upscaling I set NGU with luma-> high, chroma-> high and algorithm after doubling, upscaling-> jinc and downscaling -> same as image downscaling(that is catmull-rom). http://prnt.sc/dtgdff
What is your opinion? Are these settings too much for generic use(watching movies)?

Output of 1080 movie: http://prnt.sc/dtgbf6
Output for 720 movie: http://prnt.sc/dtgaq9

Just one more question. I used to watch movies with letterboxing. So now that madvr can handle scalings in a better way than the player itself I want to know which is the best setting to upscale the non true 1080p files(like 1920x800) or the 720p files to 1080p to cover the whole screen.
If I use in mpc (right click)video frame-> zoom 1 I loose a bit from the edges of the film. If zoom 2 a little more. If I use touch window from outside I loose a bit more from zoom 2.
If I use scale to 16:9 TV people in the movie seem more streched (I don't how to describe it) and if I use zoom to widescreen I loose again part from the edges of the movie.
What is the best setting in your opinion or what is the most mainstream setting.
Sorry for my english again.

[leonccyiu]

Hi madshi, I have found that if I use NGU very high instead of quadrupling it keeps doubling twice, it works well with medium and high though. Using low just reports NGU low (without 4x) but it may be an OSD trouble. But I am sure that very high quadrupling it is not working well in my case because it is sharper than quadrupling with high. Thanks for this release, quadrupling looks great with SD content. Also please don't forget to add LL to OSD and adding an option to prevent auto quadrupling. Thank in advance for your hard work.

If you set the Chroma to normal just below the luma in the NGU option of image upscaling, NGU very high will be x4.

[fedpul]

If you set the Chroma to normal just below the luma in the NGU option of image upscaling, NGU very high will be x4.

Thanks! That was my fault. I did not read what madshi writes in his post.

[lubczyk]

I currently have a GTX 1060 Founder's Edition with a 400 Watt power supply. While playing 1080p content with fairly high madVR settings I am pulling at max about 220 Watts total for my system measuring with Kill-A-Watt. From benchmarks, I've seen from Anandtech that the GTX 1060 FE pulls about 264 Watts while the GTX 1080 FE pulls about 335 Watts under load while running Crysis 3. Would I be safe to replace my 1060 FE with a 1080 FE for madVR duties, and if so, would I get a substantial performance increase in madVR using the GTX 1080 using the same 400 Watt power supply over the GTX 1060?

[ryrynz]

Would I be safe to replace my 1060 FE with a 1080 FE for madVR duties


Yes, provided it's not a cheap PSU.


Would I get a substantial performance increase in madVR using the GTX 1080 using the same 400 Watt power supply over the GTX 1060?

Yes, enable the settings you'd want to enable with the extra performance you'd stand to gain from upgrading and determine if it's worth it to you first, unless you plan on also using it for gaming.

[lubczyk]

Yes, provided it's not a cheap PSU.



Yes, enable the settings you'd want to enable with the extra performance you'd stand to gain from upgrading and determine if it's worth it to you first, unless you plan on also using it for gaming.

Thank you for the answer. One more question. You mentioned that a cheap PSU would be bad. What would be the difference between different PSU brands if they all rated for 400 Watts?

[ryrynz]

Thank you for the answer. One more question. You mentioned that a cheap PSU would be bad. What would be the difference between different PSU brands if they all rated for 400 Watts?

Stability of the various voltage rails, component & design quality which affects maximum output and system stability. Just read a good PSU review and you'll learn everything you need to know.

[70MM]

Would someone tell my what are good settings for upscaling DVD to 1080p please?
Im projecting them to a large screen so want them to look as good as possible with few artefacts.

[jkauff]

Would someone tell my what are good settings for upscaling DVD to 1080p please?
Im projecting them to a large screen so want them to look as good as possible with few artefacts.
There's no single answer to this, and you don't mention what graphics card you're using, but try madshi's new NGU 4x (go back a few posts for how to enable). It's a bit too sharp for me, but might be just the thing for a projector.

[aufkrawall]

Smooth edges seems to be broken with the 4x NGU step, doesn't show any effect then.

[kalston]

4x looks great to me - definitely better than doubling twice.

[aufkrawall]

This is probably mainly because "old quadrupling" doesn't use 2x NGU very high. 2x VH can look better in regard of ringing than 1x VH + 1x high/medium.

[ryrynz]

Smooth edges seems to be broken with the 4x NGU step, doesn't show any effect then.

Tis, noticed this last night. Reckon this should've been a test build rather than a proper release considering the implementation.

[Oguignant]

Hello fellas! I have a question. by default, Madvr convert video to RGB full 0-255 or RGB limited 16-235?

To connect the TV to the PC by hdmi, which is better RGB full or limited?

Thks!

[70MM]

A couple of questions please...
If you are using Image Doubling, you dont have to have the video card set to 4K do you?

Am I thinking this right for 1080 BD:
Video Card set to 1080p
1080 > Image Doubling to 4K > Down-scaling back to 1080p

This is still giving a better image for Blurays isnt it rather than 1080 > 1080?

[huhn]

Hello fellas! I have a question. by default, Madvr convert video to RGB full 0-255 or RGB limited 16-235?

Thks!

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787
the display expects the following RGB output levels: [PC levels (0-255)] This is what your display expects to receive. 'PC levels (0-255)' means “use a 16-235 YCbCr to 0-255 RGB conversion matrix” and 'TV levels (16-235)' means “use a 0-255 YCbCr to 0-255 RGB conversion matrix”. If the source is flagged full range either a 0-255 YCbCr to 0-255 RGB or a 0-255 YCbCr to 16-235 RGB conversion matrix is used instead.

A couple of questions please...
If you are using Image Doubling, you dont have to have the video card set to 4K do you?
no don't use the super sample "feature" from the GPU for that.

Am I thinking this right for 1080 BD:
Video Card set to 1080p
1080 > Image Doubling to 4K > Down-scaling back to 1080p

you need to check "activate 200% super sampling"

This is still giving a better image for Blurays isnt it rather than 1080 > 1080?

it is giving you a different image. that doesn't mean it is better or worse in general.

[70MM]

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787

no don't use the super sample "feature" from the GPU for that.

you need to check "activate 200% super sampling"



Sorry if Im not understanding it all properly as Im still a newbe :scared:

So this: no don't use the super sample "feature" from the GPU for that. = leave the video card at 1080p

And this: you need to check "activate 200% super sampling" = Im not sure what section that is in, sorry.

[Oguignant]

the display expects the following RGB output levels: [PC levels (0-255)] This is what your display expects to receive. 'PC levels (0-255)' means “use a 16-235 YCbCr to 0-255 RGB conversion matrix” and 'TV levels (16-235)' means “use a 0-255 YCbCr to 0-255 RGB conversion matrix”. If the source is flagged full range either a 0-255 YCbCr to 0-255 RGB or a 0-255 YCbCr to 16-235 RGB conversion matrix is used instead.


Thks! But, witch is better or the right one for the pc-tv connection? Rgb complete or limited?

[Asmodian]

Complete (full) range is preferred unless your display doesn't like it.

[huhn]

Sorry if Im not understanding it all properly as Im still a newbe :scared:

So this: no don't use the super sample "feature" from the GPU for that. = leave the video card at 1080p

And this: you need to check "activate 200% super sampling" = Im not sure what section that is in, sorry.

image upscaling.

[Oguignant]

Complete (full) range is preferred unless your display doesn't like it.
@Asmodian

But if I use full RGB with a TV, do not lose details?

Sorry for insist, I want to understand. I am very upset, but, I am reading contradictory information from this web:

RGB Full will display video games and other 0-255 content at the correct 0-255 range. TV, Movies and other video range use the RGB Limited range 16-235 .

http://referencehometheater.com/2014/commentary/rgb-full-vs-limited/

Q: My TV supports Full mode, shouldn’t I use this?

A: No. TVs support Full to make them easier to calibrate. Most TVs will not display a black level below 16 because video content should never have it. By letting you see Black 15 or 14, it can make it easier to calibrate the display and get the black level correct. However, you really should not use this as your main setting as most displays are not designed to display levels below 16, and often introduce color tints when doing white levels past 240 or so. Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher. Contrast Ratio is the thing your eye notices most, and so it will produce a more pleasing image.

[huhn]

ignore this link it is not about computer.

on a computer we have "full" control of the GPU output.

[QBhd]

ignore this link it is not about computer.

on a computer we have "full" control of the GPU output.

Agreed.... that link is about StandAlone Players (Blu-Ray or Consoles).... nothing to do with madVR and PC's

QB

[Oguignant]

ignore this link it is not about computer.

on a computer we have "full" control of the GPU output.

Perfectly clear. That's why I consult you here, are experts in these topics.

But I do not understand why the page says otherwise and gives incorrect information.

[Paul Tronc]

May I ask 2 little questions ?
1) I'm watching 1080p BluRay sources on a good 1080p REC709 projector, what's the ultimate algorithm to be used? Luma doubling + chroma doubling? I have an i7@4.4Ghz + GTX960.

2) I'm using 60Hz FRC via SVP. To make it work with madvr I have set the FFDShow Raw video filter + avisynth in MPCHC, together with LAV Video Filter (mandatory for Madvr), in external filters. Everything seems working fine. What I don't understand, is why don't I get frame dropping, as I reach 20ms average render time. Because SVP is supposed to work on the raw video, Madvr should see 60fps, and the render time should be under 16ms, isn't it? Frame dropping starts after 33ms render time, as if SVP was working after Madvr. Is it normal? Is it possible to change this?

[huhn]

i don't understand it too.

it is totally outdated. if your TV support correct full range RGB than there is nothing wrong in using it even with stand alone BD players.

[iSeries]

Hi,

It's generally accepted that going an all-PC levels chain is the way to go if you can. My TV can switch to PC levels but I do get more banding than if I output TV levels from MadVR and with TV set to TV levels (GPU at PC levels).

This may be a stupid question but I'm not sure how the conversions work. Eg with YCbCr luma goes to 235 but chroma goes to 240. When Madvr converts to RGB does it scale both luma and chroma to 235? What happens to the chroma information 235-240? And how does it handle WTW information, is that also all scaled to 235?

[Asmodian]

WTW (and BTB) is clipped, but is is clipped by the display when in limited range too so this isn't very different.

The 240 v.s. 235 is not an issue, the matrix converting YCbCr always uses 0-255 with different weights to go to limited or full range RGB, it is not a two step conversion to RGB, with one step doing the conversion and one scaling the range.

[iSeries]

WTW (and BTB) is clipped, but is is clipped by the display when in limited range too so this isn't very different.

The 240 v.s. 235 is not an issue, the matrix converting YCbCr always uses 0-255 with different weights to go to limited or full range RGB, it is not a two step conversion to RGB, with one step doing the conversion and one scaling the range.

Thanks, although that does confuse me a little more. WTW is clipped by the TV when in limited range? With this chain: MadVR limited-GPU full-TV limited, I can see all the bars on the white clipping test up to 254. Is that not passing WTW? And when I have the whole chain at PC levels white is clipped at 235.

[CruNcher]

@madshi

do you think i reached the lowest possible overhead with MadVR comparing here against EVR Sync in a split load test ?

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/nU/nUlgF0luA6UoDyF8UiqTswReEZ4.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/e2iNDRfkYTFBIFsknjktXKSjF1X.png)

MadVR Performance Settings (low overhead)

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/qY/qYpVmdgoI8585wBfj5vQFfJbS9t.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/A5NNar1k5QvDuWmHrgay48gFJwh.png)

interesting with MadVR MPC-BE shows in it's FPS counter 60 FPS measured not like with EVR Sync the exact 59.940 also if MadVRs Statistics shows that.

In Power output i measured around ~5W overhead vs EVR Sync for MadVR in that configuration.

But that's not even the worst case MadVR really seems to become more inefficient the more it's scaling even nearest neighbor becomes crazy inefficient fulllscreen and is tasking the GPU Shaders like crazy ???

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/s8/s87kOwXWBuaHCa6s9PhA1RSjtx.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/8o9InQoU5r0Q1SYMqeR6FcFx5o5.png)

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/s9/s9Nd9OOFZ2gpCV60T9DTVuhHUiN.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/nmLqFvkLs34ULS4XrbrEEU9DaVe.png)

[cork_OS]

What I don't understand, is why don't I get frame dropping, as I reach 20ms average render time.
Did you disable smooth motion in madVR?

[Asmodian]

With this chain: MadVR limited-GPU full-TV limited, I can see all the bars on the white clipping test up to 254. Is that not passing WTW? And when I have the whole chain at PC levels white is clipped at 235.

If you can see WtW your display is not properly calibrated for limited range input, with limited range input 16 is 0% brightness and 235 is 100%. That means the display should never show blacker than black or whiter than white.

[CruNcher]

Ok lesson learned MadVR needs to be configured per source :)

Nearest Neighbor/Billinear = 200W
DXVA = 150W

Inline with EVR Sync now

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/zw/zw5IazbwgeO4H8RGjNT0Jl6jTXK.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/ufBfD4XyCSAazrXNOqTR9TZVVHZ.png)

Huh DXVA gets lost if nothing of the gui is being drawn ?

So there is no other way then to intentional downscale the image (draw a gui element, or resize it) or the overhead on the shaders will stay on billinear or nearest neighbor ?

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/qY/qYs1CBbEng2nLWHUURUuHb1USTk.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/en1waAIY2YYnMgZJrkBFd3507qq.png)

So the middle layer is never low overhead except when using DXVA explicitly from the Decoder, and this isn't override able via the options at all ?

[iSeries]

If you can see WtW your display is not properly calibrated for limited range input, with limited range input 16 is 0% brightness and 235 is 100%. That means the display should never show blacker than black or whiter than white.

I'm sorry but I don't think that's true. It's entirely correct that I would get BTB and WTW passed through with MadVR at limited range, GPU at Full range, and TV at limited range.

"Originally Posted by nevcairiel

For the level settings, there is basically 3 combinations of settings:

(1) TV accepts PC/Full levels: Set madVR to PC/Full, set GPU to PC/Full - This is usually considered the better option, if your TV can do it.

(2) TV accepts only TV/Limited levels:
(a) Set GPU to PC/Full and set madVR to TV/Limited
(b) Set GPU to TV/Limited and set madVR to PC/Full
In the second case, both a and b have small drawbacks.
With (a), you get crushed black/white on the desktop, but everything is perfect in madVR.
With (b), you get proper colors everywhere, except that the GPU is doing the PC range -> TV range conversion, which may not be the highest quality and end up in banding.

NEVER set both madVR to TV/Limited AND GPU to TV/Limited, you get double range compression.

Because of these drawbacks with either a or b, its usually recommended to use (1) if your TV accepts it. Its only "downside" is that BTB/WTW are lost, but its arguable if those are even worth keeping. If you insist on WTW/BTB, the 2a setting is probably the next best for video quality, if you can live with crushed black/white on the Desktop."

End quote. Now, whether or not to choose to clip WTW in the TV using the contrast control is up for debate and has been for years.

[Asmodian]

I wasn't trying to say the digital values for WtW and BtB never make it to the display, only that you never see them so whether they are clipped by madVR or displayed exactly the same as if they had been clipped doesn't make any difference to the image.

In this digital age I think it is totally appropriate that contrast is as high as possible, there is no analog uncertainty in a 100% signal so there is no reason to run below max contrast. Also contrast is the most limiting aspect of most modern displays, reducing contrast in order to "keep" WtW is a tragedy.

[CruNcher]

Ouch i looked at old issues virtually all of those are fixed (options added) in 0.91.5 and performance (stability) pretty awesome as well on low overhead config.

Core Render Performance on a really high level :)

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/dN/dNXayEokeppO6uqrSfERaznhTYv.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/uxIrVp6K7YYUYJgY1ODev4tL5Uv.png)

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/k9/k9GdJ7JIplCRRBIXAPVhYoZ196m.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/nEPEoAznlNZ0Axcziqjc1DjuMyq.png)

Updating options in MPC-BE though still can cause to much CPU overhead causing frames to get dropped by MadVR when pushing "Apply"

Needs to be better separated from each other thread wise (async)

[ryrynz]

(2) TV accepts only TV/Limited levels:
(a) Set GPU to PC/Full and set madVR to TV/Limited


This is how I used to have my TV set up and wondered why everything was off.. My TV only accept 16-235 via HDMI unless I use CRU to remove the audio block then my TV exposes a full range input option.
I prefer to bitstream so I've decided to keep it with 16-235 output via the GPU control panel.

Not sure why using 0-255 output via the GPU with madVR set to 16-235 for the display looks different to the GPU outputting 16-235 with madVR set to 0-255 for the display..

Could be beneficial for madVR to have a level checker image included to perhaps assist users.

0-255 -> 16-235 vs 16-235 -> 0-255 (http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/196748)

[iSeries]

I wasn't trying to say the digital values for WtW and BtB never make it to the display, only that you never see them so whether they are clipped by madVR or displayed exactly the same as if they had been clipped doesn't make any difference to the image.

In this digital age I think it is totally appropriate that contrast is as high as possible, there is no analog uncertainty in a 100% signal so there is no reason to run below max contrast. Also contrast is the most limiting aspect of most modern displays, reducing contrast in order to "keep" WtW is a tragedy.

Ah i see. Yes i generally agree, although the behaviour of the tv plays a big part in where contrast is set.

[Asmodian]

0-255 -> 16-235 vs 16-235 -> 0-255 (http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/196748)

For the second screenshot it looks exactly like the GPU is still compressing the range. Are you sure the GPU is in full range?

Ah i see. Yes i generally agree, although the behaviour of the tv plays a big part in where contrast is set.

True, a lot of displays go very weird when contrast is set too high.

[ryrynz]

For the second screenshot it looks exactly like the GPU is still compressing the range. Are you sure the GPU is in full range?


The second screenshot is 16-235 set via the GPU and madVR set to 0-255. This is near enough visually identical (http://i.imgur.com/YSBZeO6.png) to 0-255 -> 0-255 output being used on this desktop PC.

For anyone interested in this video and others, link (https://forum.team-mediaportal.com/attachments/basic-calibration-zip.130344/).