madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Manni]

@Manni, can you please post a screenshot of the situation when zooming happens although it shouldn't, with Ctrl+J OSD turned on, with your media player set to 100% or "no zoom"?

Sure, here are two screenshots and the auto AR options:

Auto AR off: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hzek8rabi5ftemw/MadVR%20Auto%20AR%20off.png?dl=0Auto
AR on: https://www.dropbox.com/s/aiwl6wnldjdxi89/MadVR%20Auto%20AR%20On.png?dl=0
A/R options: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jom6ms9kr7wynhg/MadVR%20Auro%20AR%20Options.png?dl=0

My player is always set to 100% / no zoom. The issue goes away if I deselect the black bar detection in MadVR or if I switch to EVR-CP in MPC-BE.

[Asmodian]

Quick question for profile rule using display, does active display mean where the player window is in, or the displays that are connected?

It is the display the player window is on.

[MokrySedeS]

@Manni, fix your 2nd link since it's the same as the 1st one.
Are you sure that you have mpc-be set to 100%? madVR clearly thinks it's set to touch window from inside.
It could be misdetecting I guess, but that would be a bug. Can you also post a screenshot of relevant settings in mpc-be?

[Warner306]

Thanks for pointing that out.

I edited it and added a few words about those segments of the review, please help me improve, if you feel that it is not quite there.

You highlighted RGB settings in LAV Video -- this is not important as madVR handles these conversions.

Using image enhancements and upscaling refinement together is a bad idea. You mention you like a sharp image, and you can achieve a sharp image with upscaling refinement alone; it is simply a matter of increasing the sharpening dial. There is a difference in how precise sharpening is when it is applied and how natural it looks as a result. Upscaling refinement is superior in this case.

Outside of that, you should provide more definitions to backup your personal preferences. And the language is a little less clear than what you started with -- it looks like it needs an edit.

[Manni]

@Manni, fix your 2nd link since it's the same as the 1st one.
Are you sure that you have mpc-be set to 100%? madVR clearly thinks it's set to touch window from inside.
It could be misdetecting I guess, but that would be a bug. Can you also post a screenshot of relevant settings in mpc-be?

Thanks, I fixed the link.

Video frame is set to touch window from the inside and keep aspect ratio. That's the way it should be.

[SweetLow]

Quick question for profile rule using display, does active display mean where the player window is in, or the displays that are connected?
Shall be the first, but full functioning of this option with multimonitor config still in madshi "to do" list.

[Uoppi]

(Double post)

[Uoppi]

My player is always set to 100% / no zoom. The issue goes away if I deselect the black bar detection in MadVR

I think I'm also having this issue (if it's the same issue or an issue at all?) in Kodi (DSplayer) when "crop black bars" is enabled. I thought it was supposed to be that way, i.e. "crop black bars" may result in some "extra" scaling that otherwise wouldn't happen?

I have 100% picture with no zooming selected in Kodi and madVR's zoom factor set to "which doesn't lose any image content". I don't have "disable scaling if image size changes only by" option enabled though - does that matter? Manni seems to have it at "50 lines or less".

EDIT: Hmm, does LAV filter's AR setting affect this in some way? I have set it to detect AR from the stream.

[baii]

Shall be the first, but full functioning of this option with multimonitor config still in madshi "to do" list.
Thanks, that what I figured as I have multi monitor, I workaround by using display mode x since my displays have different resolution.

Sent from my 306SH

[leandronb]

Ok, thanks, will have a look when I find some time. Might have to wait until next weekend.

Thanks for the support.

[XMonarchY]

What does
* added support for native 10bit 4:2:0 DXVA decoding (+ scaling)
mean? I recall I could play 10bit 4:2:0 videos with "DXVA2 Copy-Back" enabled in LAV Filters and it was just fine...

"Processing done by GPU Video Logic" - is this what madshi meant?

BTW, LAV Filters does show hardware support for HEVC on my GTX 980 through DXVA2 Copy-Back acceleration. I guess its only for 8bit content then. If 8bit is enough, why would HEVC rips start using 10bit anyway? Using 10bit would increase file size, wouldn't it?

Is NVidia CUVID still an inferior option to DXVA2 Copy-Back? Does it still produce artifacts after all the driver updates, LAV updates, and madVR updates?

[Manni]

What does

mean? I recall I could play 10bit 4:2:0 videos with "DXVA2 Copy-Back" enabled in LAV Filters and it was just fine...

"Processing done by GPU Video Logic" - is this what madshi meant?

BTW, LAV Filters does show hardware support for HEVC on my GTX 980 through DXVA2 Copy-Back acceleration. I guess its only for 8bit content then. If 8bit is enough, why would HEVC rips start using 10bit anyway? Using 10bit would increase file size, wouldn't it?

Is NVidia CUVID still an inferior option to DXVA2 Copy-Back? Does it still produce artifacts after all the driver updates, LAV updates, and madVR updates?

You need at least 10bits for the wider gamut and HDR. In fact, 12bits is the minimum according to Dolby (Vision).

[Warner306]

You need at least 10bits for the wider gamut and HDR. In fact, 12bits is the minimum according to Dolby (Vision).

No, I'm pretty sure all of the sources are 10-bit. I have seen the official UHD Blu-ray specs. 12-bit sources are listed as a (possible) future upgrade but are not part of the current standard.

[clsid]

That changelog entry only concerns the "native" variant of DXVA2. That requires special handling from the video renderer. Copy-back acts as a normal decoder as far as renderers (and other downstream filters) are concerned.

Your GTX 980 provides partial acceleration. That means it does not have a dedicated decoder unit for HEVC, but uses generic GPU and CPU resources to do the decoding. That is much less efficient and slower compared to full acceleration.

10bit does not necessarily make things bigger. In fact, it can sometimes even provide similar quality at lower size.

CUVID is inferior due to broken NVIDIA drivers. LAV and madVR are NOT at fault.

[XMonarchY]

You need at least 10bits for the wider gamut and HDR. In fact, 12bits is the minimum according to Dolby (Vision).

I have neither HDR nor 3D and only normal sRGB/Rec.709 colorspace, but my TV has 12bit output. I guess it makes no difference for anyone without HDR and wide colorspace? I thought no 4K TV could reproduce UHD colorspace yet...

[Warner306]

What does

mean? I recall I could play 10bit 4:2:0 videos with "DXVA2 Copy-Back" enabled in LAV Filters and it was just fine...

"Processing done by GPU Video Logic" - is this what madshi meant?

BTW, LAV Filters does show hardware support for HEVC on my GTX 980 through DXVA2 Copy-Back acceleration. I guess its only for 8bit content then. If 8bit is enough, why would HEVC rips start using 10bit anyway? Using 10bit would increase file size, wouldn't it?

Is NVidia CUVID still an inferior option to DXVA2 Copy-Back? Does it still produce artifacts after all the driver updates, LAV updates, and madVR updates?

I don't think you are getting actual fixed-function hardware decoding but hybrid decoding instead, where part of the GPU is used to decode the HEVC content. But this impacts the performance of the GPU and will not do much of anything to improve the speed of HEVC decoding.

The only fixed-function HEVC decoders are found in the new Intel iGPU (which are 8-bit) and the Nvidia GTX 950/960, which are 10-bit.

[sneaker_ger]

I have neither HDR nor 3D and only normal sRGB/Rec.709 colorspace, but my TV has 12bit output. I guess it makes no difference for anyone without HDR and wide colorspace? I thought no 4K TV could reproduce UHD colorspace yet...
Even if your display does not have HDR your PC still has to be fast enough to decode the 10 bit HEVC video. 4k can bring fast CPUs to its limits.

[huhn]

What does

[QUOTE]* added support for native 10bit 4:2:0 DXVA decoding (+ scaling)

that madVR can accept p010 from DXVA native and it can scale these using DXVA.

BTW, LAV Filters does show hardware support for HEVC on my GTX 980 through DXVA2 Copy-Back acceleration. I guess its only for 8bit content then. If 8bit is enough, why would HEVC rips start using 10bit anyway? Using 10bit would increase file size, wouldn't it?
this is hybrid decoding which is pretty much a waste of time. the performence gain from CPU only is very little. 10 bit encoding lowers needed bitrate.
Is NVidia CUVID still an inferior option to DXVA2 Copy-Back? Does it still produce artifacts after all the driver updates, LAV updates, and madVR updates?

it's just buggy and 10 bit isn't supported.

I have neither HDR nor 3D and only normal sRGB/Rec.709 colorspace, but my TV has 12bit output. I guess it makes no difference for anyone without HDR and wide colorspace? I thought no 4K TV could reproduce UHD colorspace yet...

it doesn't matter if they can't reproduce the color space 100%. and i wouldn't be shocked if it will take 5+ year before we reach 100% BT 2020 on a payable display.

[aufkrawall]

The only fixed-function HEVC decoders are found in the new Intel iGPU (which are 8-bit) and the Nvidia GTX 950/960, which are 10-bit.
AMD's Fury cards and Carrizo also have HEVC fixed function 8 bit decoder afaik.

[huhn]

AMD's Fury cards and Carrizo also have HEVC fixed function 8 bit decoder afaik.

that's correct. the 3xx series has this decoder.

[aufkrawall]

It's a bit more complex (or confusing):
AMD 3xx series also consists of rebranded GCN GPUs (even GCN 1.0).
Afaik GCN 1.2 Tonga GPUs (r9 380 and r9 380X) have a hybrid 8 bit HEVC decoder.
Only very recent Fiji cards (Fury X, Fury, Fury Nano) and Carrizo SoC have fixed function 8 bit HEVC decoder (but no 10 bit capability either).
All other GCN GPUs don't have HEVC decoding capabilities.

[baii]

But I don't see 8bit hevc going to be used much , if at all.
So the word again, is wait.

Sent from my 306SH

[aufkrawall]

Agreed, HEVC 8 bit decoding capability seems quite useless to me as well.

[Uoppi]

Could someone clarify what "crop black bars" is supposed to do? Should it zoom/scale the bars away or keep them visible (providing player is not set to zoom and madVR is set to lose no image content)?

[huhn]

it is there to remove hard coded black bars from videos.

[Sunset1982]

Could someone clarify what "crop black bars" is supposed to do? Should it zoom/scale the bars away or keep them visible (providing player is not set to zoom and madVR is set to lose no image content)?

and does it provide a performance boost with files that have black bars when they are cropped by madvr?

[huhn]

depends.

but in most cases you have to scale the image more which could be slower.

and removing blackbar without resizing the image is unreliable so you can really take advantage of the performance boost.

[Manni]

No, I'm pretty sure all of the sources are 10-bit. I have seen the official UHD Blu-ray specs. 12-bit sources are listed as a (possible) future upgrade but are not part of the current standard.

Sorry, you are pretty wrong :)

UHD Bluray encoded with Dolby Vision (all Sony titles, Warner as well I think, Fox is the only one skipping on both Dolby Vision and immersive audio on their initial releases, which is why I'm boycotting them) provide a 10bits HDR10 layer for compatibility with non Dolby Vision displays, and an optional Dolby Vision layer which adds 12bits bit depth using a 1080p layer. Dolby Vision is part of the UHD Bluray specs, it's just an optional layer. Only HDR10 is mandatory.

Dolby (who created PQ gamma) states that 12bits is the minimal bit depth to resolve 4K/UH in PQ Gamma/WCG/HDR without any banding. With HDR10, there is still banding in the picture, especially in the low end.

Of course Dolby could be saying this to justify Dolby Vision, which is why I said "according to Dolby".

Bottom line in no meaningful content will be available in 8bits. UHDTV requires 10bits rec709 minimum, and UHD Bluray requires 10bits as well, WCG or not, and supports 12 bits with Dolby Vision.

Although the new JVCs don't support Dolby Vision, they offer a 12bits path from the input to the panels, hopefully in preparation for Dolby Vision support. The main value of Dolby Vision at this stage is that unlike HDR10, it's possible to calibrate a display accurately with Dolby Vision. Unfortunately it requires hardware support in the source and the display, and a pay-for license.

Of course someone with an 8bits, rec-709 display doesn't care about this, but in that case upscaling bluray is probably a better idea anyway.

Probably time to get back on topic, I'm sure Madshi has better things to do than reading all this in his thread...

[Arm3nian]

Video specs are only half the story in determining if you can decode in real time or not. The other half is the bitrate. Specs do not determine the bit rate alone, the compression also has a role. I can screen capture uncompressed 1080p 24fps 8 bit RGB and it will have a higher bitrate than 4k bluray releases. But you also have to consider the software decoder implementation. How efficient is it at decoding avc vs hevc. There are too many variables.

My 4.2GHz 5820k can decode the 4k 10bit 60fps hevc clip from Samsung that was posted a few pages back with no problems. It hovers at around 50% usage.

Most UHD blurays will have a bitrate similar to each other, and the standard has a maximum, so if you can decode that, then you're good to go for bluray. But that doesn't mean you can decode anything. A high bitrate file encoded at the fastest setting would most likely encourage your CPU to commit suicide.

For UHD, you don't need gpu decoding if you have a fairly modern cpu with a decent overclock. But it still would help since it's more efficient at doing it and doesn't turn your room into an oven and cause fans to ramp up.

[Arm3nian]

Probably time to get back on topic, I'm sure Madshi has better things to do than reading all this in his thread...
Why is this even being discussed here. Let's go flood the lav thread instead. Onward brothers! :p

[nevcairiel]

Why is this even being discussed here. Let's go flood the lav thread instead. Onward brothers! :p

You know the forum allows you to create your own threads for entirely unrelated discussions. :p

[Warner306]

Sorry, you are pretty wrong :)

UHD Bluray encoded with Dolby Vision (all Sony titles, Warner as well I think, Fox is the only one skipping on both Dolby Vision and immersive audio on their initial releases, which is why I'm boycotting them) provide a 10bits HDR10 layer for compatibility with non Dolby Vision displays, and an optional Dolby Vision layer which adds 12bits bit depth using a 1080p layer. Dolby Vision is part of the UHD Bluray specs, it's just an optional layer. Only HDR10 is mandatory.

Dolby (who created PQ gamma) states that 12bits is the minimal bit depth to resolve 4K/UH in PQ Gamma/WCG/HDR without any banding. With HDR10, there is still banding in the picture, especially in the low end.

Of course Dolby could be saying this to justify Dolby Vision, which is why I said "according to Dolby".

Bottom line in no meaningful content will be available in 8bits. UHDTV requires 10bits rec709 minimum, and UHD Bluray requires 10bits as well, WCG or not, and supports 12 bits with Dolby Vision.

Although the new JVCs don't support Dolby Vision, they offer a 12bits path from the input to the panels, hopefully in preparation for Dolby Vision support. The main value of Dolby Vision at this stage is that unlike HDR10, it's possible to calibrate a display accurately with Dolby Vision. Unfortunately it requires hardware support in the source and the display, and a pay-for license.

Of course someone with an 8bits, rec-709 display doesn't care about this, but in that case upscaling bluray is probably a better idea anyway.

Probably time to get back on topic, I'm sure Madshi has better things to do than reading all this in his thread...

I see. Wouldn't this just be the metadata layered on top of the 10-bit source? Or is the entire pipeline 12-bits?

At any rate, is it possible to decode Dolby Vision with madVR, or is this proprietary to select TV manufacturers?

[David]

What do i need to watch hdr with madVR if my TV is 10 bit and WCG?

- Last LAV nightly build
- Setting madVR ex. fullscreen+d3d11+10 bits and (?) DCI P3 in set is already calibrated
- Maximizin luminance and contrast TV setting(?)
- Setting TV WCG
- Ajusting madVR nits

With this settings i think madVR will send 10 bits DCI P3 (REC 2020) with dinamic range compressed to luminance settings. Am i correct?

What about PQ EOTF (ST 2084)? What does madVR with it?

[nijiko]

I've a long time no watching FHD films.
Is there some problem with Intel videocard driver for Win10 now? (HD4600 and newest 4380 driver)
It's heavy tearing with MPC-HC svn 101 + LAV 67.134 + madVR 90.12 in Win10 10586.104.

Addon:
The same settings in Win8.1, there is no problems.
And in Win10 now, if I use NV card, there is no problems, too.

[starlight2]

hi guys, i want buy and use a gtx 970 only for madvr but my processor is Intel i3 3110M (dual core 2.4Ghz), Madvr use only gpu? Is possibile this or is cpu limited?

[ryrynz]

hi guys, i want buy and use a gtx 970 only for madvr but my processor is Intel i3 3110M (dual core 2.4Ghz), Madvr use only gpu? Is possibile this or is cpu limited?

Yup. You're very limited with using your onboard GPU.

[starlight2]

so the CPU is used anyway? I am currently using graphics card GT610, use only 1080p and use bilinear 100 + AR + SuperRes and the cpu is only used 10%

[Sunset1982]

hi guys, i want buy and use a gtx 970 only for madvr

I would wait till summer when next GPU generation will be released... it will be more power efficient and more powerful with support for HDMI 2.0a, HDR and HEVC 10 bit decoding...

[Uoppi]

depends.

but in most cases you have to scale the image more which could be slower.

and removing blackbar without resizing the image is unreliable so you can really take advantage of the performance boost.

I'm seeing an insignificant performance boost so I've decided to just disable "crop black bars".

Half of the time I don't even understand why madVR is scaling, so I guess I'm better off not using that feature, LOL. For example, because of the scaling, some videos even end up playing under a different/unexpected madVR profile (i.e. not the profile that would be used if "crop black bars" was disabled).

[Manni]

I see. Wouldn't this just be the metadata layered on top of the 10-bit source? Or is the entire pipeline 12-bits?

At any rate, is it possible to decode Dolby Vision with madVR, or is this proprietary to select TV manufacturers?

No, as I said it's not just metadata, Dolby Vision achieves 12bits on top of the UHD HDR10 mandatory layer with a 1080p layer which is used to recreate the UHD 12bits original bitdepth.

Dolby Vision is only supported if both the source and the display have the necessary hardware and license. This is what makes third party HDR calibration possible, because the characteristics of every licensed display features in a Dolby maintained database, shared with licensed calibration software companies. With HDR10, each manufacturer does what they want - and seems unwilling to share what they do exactly - as there is no standard defined for consumer playback (although the ITU might publish something in the next few months).

As MadVR isn't tied to any display (it does what a display manufacturer does, but it's not doing it to any fixed target) and doesn't support HDR passthrough yet, I don't think it's possible to license it for its current HDR to SDR conversion feature.

When/if MadVR handles HDR metadata passthrough (which Madshi has indicated will not happen until there is HDR support at GPU/Driver/API level, so not until this summer with Arctic Islands at best), it might be possible to do something if the display supports Dolby Vision. But honestly, it looks like a lot of work for a minimal benefit for most people.

I leave it to Madshi to answer this question in more details, but it might be difficult for him to do so at this stage as there is little technical information publicly available on Dolby Vision if you're not a licensee.

[starlight2]

I would wait till summer when next GPU generation will be released... it will be more power efficient and more powerful with support for HDMI 2.0a, HDR and HEVC 10 bit decoding...

Thank you, but i want buy and use now :P
Guys Help me?
Your processor, what percentage of use have when working with madVR?

[Uoppi]

Thank you, but i want buy and use now :P
Guys Help me?
Your processor, what percentage of use have when working with madVR?

From my experience, CPU doesn't matter much.

I've got a 1080p TV and GTX 960 with a dual-core Ivy Bridge Pentium from 2013 (cost me around ~60 euros new) and the use percentage gets higher on the graphics card than CPU when maxing out with madVR settings. In other words CPU has never been the bottleneck in my use.

If you want to game on your HTPC, that's a completely different matter of course. But I've been very happy with my GTX 960. I can use at least NNEDI32 for luma on all upscaled material (not 1080p supersampling though!) Power efficiency seems fine, comes with HEVC hardware decoding and fans remain idle most of the time (and even when fans turn on, they're completely inaudible on the MSI card from my viewing position less than 2 m away).

[chros]

Thank you, but i want buy and use now :P
Guys Help me?
Your processor, what percentage of use have when working with madVR?
As Uoppi said, if you don't want to play games with it (or don't need that amount of power) AND want to buy something now (which I don't) then I'd vote for 960, although it's less powerful than 970 but it has 4k 10bit HEVC full acceleration (so your current cpu will be enough).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nvidia_graphics_processing_units#GeForce_900_Series

[Sunset1982]

I'm using the 960 too for upscaling 1080p mkv to 4k. This is a great card for HTPC use and for the price. I would buy a 960 and maybe upgrade later this year and maybe sell this card again.

[starlight2]

Thank you guys, i want use graphics card only for MAdvr+SVP (smooth video Project) at the same time
I want to improve only mkv to 1080p and would like to use the best possible settings to obtain the best possible picture. I own a VPR JVC RS10, has a type of soft image. I would like to strengthen the image as much as possible.
I did not understand whether it is better to take a 960 or a 970 !?
Thank you so much advice!

[chros]

Thank you guys, i want use graphics card only for MAdvr+SVP (smooth video Project) at the same time
I want to improve only mkv to 1080p and would like to use the best possible settings to obtain the best possible picture. I own a VPR JVC RS10, has a type of soft image. I would like to strengthen the image as much as possible.
I did not understand whether it is better to take a 960 or a 970 !?
Thank you so much advice!
Then 970 (or 980 if you have enough money).

[jkauff]

Then 970 (or 980 if you have enough money).
Yes, madVR and SVP both want your GPU resources. Get as much power as you can afford.

EDIT: Be sure to turn off madVR's Smooth Motion when using SVP. You'll free up significant resources.

[XMonarchY]

Off-topic, but wow.... ripping with HEVC produces BETTER image quality at HALF the size than ripping with medium-high quality h.264, but at the same time it seems kind of a tiny bit smoother-smeared looking, different from h.264, with less noise for sure.\

Is HEVC expected to become the future for both 4K and 1080p content? That leaves everyone without GTX 950/960 at a pretty big disadvantage unless they plan on upgrading GPU when Pascal and AMD's new cards come out...

[Warner306]

Off-topic, but wow.... ripping with HEVC produces BETTER image quality at HALF the size than ripping with medium-high quality h.264, but at the same time it seems kind of a tiny bit smoother-smeared looking, different from h.264, with less noise for sure.\

Is HEVC expected to become the future for both 4K and 1080p content? That leaves everyone without GTX 950/960 at a pretty big disadvantage unless they plan on upgrading GPU when Pascal and AMD's new cards come out...

It is already the future for 4K content and rips that might one day result from 4K content (4K -> 1080p).

[nevcairiel]

Off-topic, but wow.... ripping with HEVC produces BETTER image quality at HALF the size than ripping with medium-high quality h.264, but at the same time it seems kind of a tiny bit smoother-smeared looking, different from h.264, with less noise for sure.

Most people consider the loss of detail by smoothing a bad property of a compression. But thats what HEVC does when you lower bitrate, other codecs artifact, HEVC smoothes details to make compression easier.