madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) [Archive] - Page 358

AndreaMG

1st March 2013, 13:54

iSunrise

1st March 2013, 14:10

I found a problem with using one of these settings. Setting 'number of frames to present in advance' to '16' and I get terrible lip-synch issues. I set it to '6' and the problem went away. Using Reclock and GT650Ti.

Is this a bug or a feature, being able to control lip-synch from within madVR?
Like cyberbeing already mentioned, that sounds really strange. Upping your GPU buffers should not make things worse (at least not in the sense of smoothness), it could make a difference in seek times, but it should never lead to sync-issues. So, either you have found a bug (try to reproduce it and give a sample to madshi so he can fix) or there´s some other problem with performance (GPU cannot catch up) or Reclock. Are your buffers always filled or do they come close to 0 or approach 0 in some cases?

Just FYI, since I have a GTX580 I can use minimum values for queueing and buffering and I still have a perfectly smooth experience with that. Even if I do increase everything to the maximum values, I never encountered lip-sync issues.

SamKook

1st March 2013, 14:12

Madshi,
could you please consider a function (that can be enabled or disabled) that whenever a given number of frame drops occur the OSD automatically appears? The reason is to be sure everything is going the way it should without having to manually check with ctrl+J now and then. Plus sometimes when the number of dropped frames is not massive I find difficult to be aware of the situation if not by hitting ctrl+J. Thanks! :)

If you don't notice it visually, why would it matter if the OSD tell you there are dropped frames or not?

Also, it would be hard since switching from exclusive to windows always produce dropped frames(there may also be other instances of where dropped frames are normal) so you'd have to find a way to not count those.

AndreaMG

1st March 2013, 14:23

If you don't notice it visually, why would it matter if the OSD tell you there are dropped frames or not?

Also, it would be hard since switching from exclusive to windows always produce dropped frames(there may also be other instances of where dropped frames are normal) so you'd have to find a way to not count those.

But your subconscious does ^^ Let me give you an example: sometimes I disable the frame interpolator of my tv for some reasons and then I watch a video and AT A CERTAIN POINT I realize something is not right because the FI is turned off, but the first couple of minutes of the movie played wrong ;)

In exclusive mode hitting ctrl+J I get no single frame drop, the same goes while playing videos with appropriate settings. The option could of course be configurable, like "if more than x consecutive frame drops occur than... ;)

SamKook

1st March 2013, 14:37

I realize I was clear enough, I meant going from fullscreen exclusive to not fullscreen windowed. I usually get around 20-30 dropped frames that way, which is way more than when things go wrong(but not more then when they go really horribly wrong).

My point was that for the moment before your conciousness realize that something is wrong, the problem isn't bothering you since you're not aware of it even if it was wrong.

Heuer

1st March 2013, 17:34

Like cyberbeing already mentioned, that sounds really strange. Upping your GPU buffers should not make things worse (at least not in the sense of smoothness), it could make a difference in seek times, but it should never lead to sync-issues. So, either you have found a bug (try to reproduce it and give a sample to madshi so he can fix) or there´s some other problem with performance (GPU cannot catch up) or Reclock. Are your buffers always filled or do they come close to 0 or approach 0 in some cases?

Just FYI, since I have a GTX580 I can use minimum values for queueing and buffering and I still have a perfectly smooth experience with that. Even if I do increase everything to the maximum values, I never encountered lip-sync issues.
Tried it without Reclock and it still happens. Tested it with different numbers of forward frames - 14 and 16 are particularly bad but other values seem to be OK although 12 is marginal. Buffers are always full. I am using 10 forward frames at the moment and it is OK. Dropped frames are minimal and repeated frames on 1080i25 to 1080p50 are between 16 hours and 1.5 days.

MrGlasspoole

1st March 2013, 18:58

Hi,

what is the right way to update?
Just overwriting the old madVR files with the new files?

Heuer

1st March 2013, 19:17

Having recently had a problem getting madVR .086 to run I would suggest extracting each new version to its own folder. I would then run the uninstall.bat of the old version before running the install.bat of the new version. You can then delete the old version folder if you are happy things are working correctly.

SamKook

1st March 2013, 19:18

I don't know if it's the right way, but I just run the uninstall.bat from the old folder and then the install.bat from the new one and never had any problems. I do add the version at the end of the folder name though so it's never in the same folder, but I would assume deleting all the old files before putting the new ones in would provide the same result.

Edit: ...so pretty much what the guy who was faster than me said.

ThurstonX

1st March 2013, 19:27

Hi,

what is the right way to update?
Just overwriting the old madVR files with the new files?

FWIW, I've only ever unzipped the new version into the old version's folder, using folder/path names and overwriting files without prompting. Never had a problem. YMMV.

MrGlasspoole

1st March 2013, 20:52

What about your settings if you guys delete or not use the old folder?

SamKook

1st March 2013, 21:00

It's all kept in the registry so it will stay even if you delete everything.

AndreaMG

1st March 2013, 21:45

It's all kept in the registry so it will stay even if you delete everything.
I've always deleted everything, with latest rev. though I lost all my settings :confused:

SamKook

1st March 2013, 21:52

I think v0.86.0 had a problem saving the settings so that might be why.

AndreaMG

1st March 2013, 21:59

I realize I was clear enough, I meant going from fullscreen exclusive to not fullscreen windowed. I usually get around 20-30 dropped frames that way

I play a video and goes instantly to fullscreen and with CPU and GPU queues set to max I get 0 frame drops... Anyway the check could happen a few seconds from start if the majority of people get drop frames at the beginning.

My point was that for the moment before your conciousness realize that something is wrong, the problem isn't bothering you since you're not aware of it even if it was wrong.

My point is that a vision without dropped frames is preferable than the one where dropped frames occurs. Another example: you are put in front of a plasma and you enjoys its deep blacks and high contrast, you are happy, then you watch the same content on a 4k oled and you wish you watched the entire thing with it ;)

AndreaMG

1st March 2013, 22:00

I think v0.86.0 had a problem saving the settings so that might be why.
Thanks, as I imagined. I had an hard time putting everything the way it was :(

Octo-puss

2nd March 2013, 16:40

I just want to take this opportunity to thank madshi for this exceptional piece of software. Despite being hopeless audio/video illiterate noob, I can tell the difference between bad and good image.
I've been checking this thread from time to time for a long time, and only recently decided to see what was it all about.
The results exceeded my expectations.
EVR (http://i.imgur.com/4zsQccV.jpg) vs madVR (http://i.imgur.com/MVGHjA8.jpg)
EVR (http://i.imgur.com/9uKfVnY.jpg) vs madVR (http://i.imgur.com/Wyh5ocR.jpg)
Impressive (and that's after Imgur crippled the format to jpg).
Again, thanks a lot and keep up the good work.

tony359

2nd March 2013, 21:37

Hi all,

First of all, a massive thanks for developing yCMS, it's amazing!
I am trying to load a 3dlut file into MPC-HC but I have the dreadful message "this 3DLUT file does not matche the input format required by madVR".
I have tested a bit of everything as input but with no luck.

I know I can load the values directly in madVR, was just doing some tests.

I have a professional colour meter. Using the AVS test disk, I was checking the results and I found that the grayscale after calibration reads the following x and y: 0.313 0.322. Is that the proper white point? I thought that rec 709 was 0.3127 0.3290. I'm happy with x, but what about y?
My monitor is a good one and already calibrated-ish. The original white is 0.312 0.317, not light years off.

Gamut is massively improved, my Dell is a wide-gamut and yCMS takes it back to what it's supposed to be, simply amazing.

Thanks for your help.
Below my calibration file.
Tony

# Set input format
Input_Format yRGB RGB_Video 8

# Set output format
Output_Format yRGB RGB_Video 16

Grayscale_Measurements
0 1 0.125 0.3004 0.3283
10 1 0.919 0.3068 0.3225
20 1 3.28 0.3119 0.3174
30 1 9.10 0.3126 0.3173
40 1 17.9 0.3133 0.3172
50 1 31.2 0.3133 0.3163
60 1 47 0.3148 0.3189
70 1 67.5 0.3156 0.3186
80 1 93.3 0.3148 0.3195
90 1 120.3 0.3139 0.3214
100 1 150 0.3130 0.3218

Gamut_Measurements 1

43.9 0.6751 0.3203
93.5 0.1825 0.7023
12.1 0.1477 0.0622
150.0 0.3130 0.3218

Gamma_Curve 1.0 2.2

MSL_DK

2nd March 2013, 22:47

I am trying to load a 3dlut file into MPC-HC but I have the dreadful message "this 3DLUT file does not matche the input format required by madVR".

From yCMS thread 3dlut requirements (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1510363&postcount=637)

oddball

2nd March 2013, 22:51

tony359

2nd March 2013, 23:20

Thanks MSL_DK

That explains why. I did research before asking and I could only find yRGB as a requirement.
Any ideas on why I am not reading the D65 white coordinates then?

hdboy

3rd March 2013, 02:41

make sure output 0-255 is set everywhere... madVR, ffdshow, LAV, whatever else you use in your setup.... also make sure you ouput 0-255 via HDMI... Instead of trying to make a custom resolution work, you can simply apply this hack http://blog.metaclassofnil.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/NV_RGBFullRangeToggle.zip (you have to reboot for the changes to have an effect)

That's what I'm doing, 0-255 all the way down the chain. I applied the patch also.

The odd part is when I turn on full screen exclusive in madvr, blacks are lighter. It's not a big deal since windowed mode works fine for me. It's just weird.

pie1394

3rd March 2013, 06:12

That's what I'm doing, 0-255 all the way down the chain. I applied the patch also.

The odd part is when I turn on full screen exclusive in madvr, blacks are lighter. It's not a big deal since windowed mode works fine for me. It's just weird.

What kind of display do you use? LCD monitor or TV ?

Do you set all color / video settings in NVIDIA Control Panel are set to "Other applications control color settings" "With the video player settings", "RGB color space". There is something like apply colors to desktop/video/automatic...

Qaq

3rd March 2013, 06:56

The odd part is when I turn on full screen exclusive in madvr, blacks are lighter.
Try to untick "gamma ramps" in properties - display settings. Seems like you use a custom color profile or something.

dansrfe

3rd March 2013, 07:55

By default ICC profiles are supposed to work in exclusive mode right? (with disable gamma ramps unchecked)

Also, what exactly does a 3DLUT do that an ICC profile doesn't or cannot? Is a 3DLUT supposed to work on top of an ICC profile to further correct the screen or is it supposed to work independent of the profile with the "disable gamma ramps" setting checked? Or is that setting for something else?

MSL_DK

3rd March 2013, 10:11

Try to untick "gamma ramps" in properties - display settings. Seems like you use a custom color profile or something.

Wrong. If he does this, he makes use of ICC profiles.

Qaq

3rd March 2013, 10:43

Wrong. If he does this, he makes use of ICC profiles.
I just wanted to make him understand the problem. Of course, he must use 3DLUT or whatever madVR uses to fix display colors.

e-t172

3rd March 2013, 12:30

The odd part is when I turn on full screen exclusive in madvr, blacks are lighter. It's not a big deal since windowed mode works fine for me. It's just weird.

Go to NVIDIA Control Panel, Display, Adjust desktop colour settings, and then experiment with the option "Content type reported to the display". Indeed, the default behavior is wrong when playing HD content using DXVA or CUVID with a 16-235 device such as a HDTV.

Also, what exactly does a 3DLUT do that an ICC profile doesn't or cannot?

Technically, ICC profiles don't really have limitations, it's just the way they are applied to the video output by your operating system. ICC profile "loaders" use hardware gamma ramps (hardware CLUTs) to apply the ICC profile, which means you get a 3x1D-LUT instead of a 3D-LUT. 3x1D-LUTs are only able to correct the grayscale ramp, or in other words, the white balance (i.e. making sure grays are D65). 3D-LUTs are able to correct everything, including the gamut (hue and saturation for primaries, secondaries, and everything in between), within of course the hardware limitations of your display.

To summarize:
- 3x1D-LUT = ICC loaders = hardware CLUTs (gamma ramps) = grayscale correction only
- 3D-LUT = madVR = custom shader code = everything is corrected including gamut

Note that by "grayscale correction", I don't mean that 3x1D-LUTs are unable to correct color images. I mean that they are only able to correct in one dimension (the grayscale ramp) instead of three dimensions like a 3D-LUT.

Is a 3DLUT supposed to work on top of an ICC profile to further correct the screen or is it supposed to work independent of the profile with the "disable gamma ramps" setting checked? Or is that setting for something else?

Well, it depends on how you're doing the measurements for your 3DLUT. If you're measuring your screen with 3x1D-LUT correction already applied, then the resulting 3DLUT is meant to be used on the screen with 3x1D-LUT correction applied, and you should not tick "disable gamma ramps". If, on the other hand, you're measuring your screen without any correction, then the resulting 3DLUT is meant to be used without any previous correction, so you should tick "disable gamma ramps" to disable the hardware CLUTs while using madVR.

dansrfe

3rd March 2013, 13:07

e-t172, thanks for your thorough reply. :)

If you don't mind me asking, what is your recommendation on whether to apply the 3D-LUT on top of the 3x1D-LUTs or independently of it? In my opinion I would apply it independently of the 3x1D-LUTs because it seems cleaner and mainly because it can be used with the "disable gamma ramps" option.

I didn't pay much attention to 3D-LUTs earlier on in madVR's development but I wonder now how it was possible to use a 3D-LUT independently of the 3x1D-LUTs without the "disable gamma ramps" option before. I guess it could only be used on top of the 3x1D-LUTs at that point in time...

Q-the-STORM

3rd March 2013, 13:08

That's what I'm doing, 0-255 all the way down the chain. I applied the patch also.

The odd part is when I turn on full screen exclusive in madvr, blacks are lighter. It's not a big deal since windowed mode works fine for me. It's just weird.
hmmm... can you try playing a 4:3 video and skipping to a black frame in exclusive mode?
when the blacks in the video and the borders are the same, then there is no problem with the decoder or any other part of your playback chain... should be another issue then...

e-t172

3rd March 2013, 18:41

If you don't mind me asking, what is your recommendation on whether to apply the 3D-LUT on top of the 3x1D-LUTs or independently of it?

I would apply the 3D-LUT independently (i.e. measure without 1D-LUTs and apply without 1D-LUTs by using the "disable gamma ramps" option). Doing everything in one processing step is better in terms of precision than doing it in two separate steps (especially when there are integer conversions in the middle).

Niyawa

3rd March 2013, 19:59

jkauff

3rd March 2013, 20:04

Mangix

3rd March 2013, 20:08

hdboy

3rd March 2013, 21:40

hmmm... can you try playing a 4:3 video and skipping to a black frame in exclusive mode?
when the blacks in the video and the borders are the same, then there is no problem with the decoder or any other part of your playback chain... should be another issue then...

hmm, the blacks are ok now, look same w/ or w/o FSE. i must've changed something, not sure what.

Q-the-STORM

3rd March 2013, 23:12

Now that madVR includes a Smooth Motion option, how does that affect the use of SVP? I asked the same question on the SVP forum, but I'm wondering if I still need SVP or if madVR has made it obsolete?

depends on why you use SVP... if you just don't want 3:2 judder, then you'll only need madVR's smooth motion...
but if you want motion interpolation (more fps) then you'll still have to use SVP...

cyberbeing

3rd March 2013, 23:40

I have a questions people. Do anyone know which GPU would be powerful enough to use with smooth motion + frame blending up to 30 fps content without dropped frames? I hear the GTX 260 can't save us this time.

Don't take what you hear for granted? My GT440 which is less than half as powerful as a GTX 260 has no issues whatsoever using Smooth Motion. The actual minimum requirements should probably be much lower than that.

If the person is using stock (non-OC) CPU and GPU clocks, has low DPC latency, and is unable to troubleshoot the issue by using less intensive scaling settings, or tweaking madVR's numerous other options, they should file a bug report on madshi's bugtracker. Overall, I don't think you should even try to make any sort of broad determination about Smooth Motion until madshi is satisfied that he's fixed all the critical bugs, and enables by default in a future release. At the moment, I'd say the feature is still in the user feedback and testing phase.

dansrfe

4th March 2013, 00:38

To be frank, I think FRC is awesome. Hopefully with some more improvements it will become a standard, nice alternative to using SVP and avisynth for realtime playback. FRC definitely looks closer to SVP than just refresh rate multiple and reclock, at least if running at < 60Hz (48Hz for 24fps).

DragonQ

4th March 2013, 01:36

I plan on using a cheap monitor as a second TV in a year or so (connected to a PC running MediaPortal in client mode). It only does 60 Hz AFAIK though so MadVR's smooth video option will be vital. That gives the MediaPortal devs a year to add MadVR support. Not very likely but you never know.

leeperry

4th March 2013, 02:19

BTW, talking about 8bit LUT's, 60Hz-only monitors and all I just found out that LG's 170€ M2232D / 200€ M2432D 1080p serie is "ISF ccc" certified so you get all the colorimetry options a colorfreak could ever crave, has a MPEG4 DVB-T tuner onboard and also supports 24/30/50/60Hz :cool:

The 27" version uses a 600:1 CR IPS panel and these are 1K:1 TN of course, but bang/bucks looks huge! Their built-in dynamic contrast algorithm looks extremely impressive to me(not as artificial as Sammy's DNIE) and the 24p demo BD in the store looked as smooth as it gets.....I'll prolly get ahold of the 24" version tomorrow :devil:

I'll lose a hell lot of native CR compared to CRT but I'll gain perfect geometry/sharpness, perfect colorimetry(without a nasty 8bit LUT), most impressive dynamic CR and if I'm lucky clouding won't as much of an issue on 20" LCD's as it on 40"s. Also, 24p should be a lot less blurry on a 5ms TN panel than on a +16ms MVA.

BTW, just for the record I updated the XLS gamut mapping spreadsheet with 6 digits after the coma for the standards gamuts white points instead of the stock 4 digits. I'm attaching it to this post.

Niyawa

4th March 2013, 13:46

Don't take what you hear for granted? My GT440 which is less than half as powerful as a GTX 260 has no issues whatsoever using Smooth Motion. The actual minimum requirements should probably be much lower than that.

If the person is using stock (non-OC) CPU and GPU clocks, has low DPC latency, and is unable to troubleshoot the issue by using less intensive scaling settings, or tweaking madVR's numerous other options, they should file a bug report on madshi's bugtracker. Overall, I don't think you should even try to make any sort of broad determination about Smooth Motion until madshi is satisfied that he's fixed all the critical bugs, and enables by default in a future release. At the moment, I'd say the feature is still in the user feedback and testing phase.
Haha, well. Smooth motion alone is okay here, but the moment I enable frame blending everything goes downhill, so I was just curious about which range of GPUs seems to have a better job handling those. Thanks anyway.

iSunrise

4th March 2013, 14:10

Haha, well. Smooth motion alone is okay here, but the moment I enable frame blending everything goes downhill, so I was just curious about which range of GPUs seems to have a better job handling those. Thanks anyway.
Of course it does. Frame blending is extremely expensive. But why would you use FRC and frame blending together, I don´t get it. Please give us a technical explanation what you´re trying to achieve with that.

Niyawa

4th March 2013, 14:23

Of course it does. Frame blending is extremely expensive. But why would you use FRC and frame blending together, I don´t get it. Please give us a technical explanation what you´re trying to achieve with that.
I'm sure madshi said that disabling the option "don't user linear light for smooth motion frame bleding" in rendering options would make the quality go up. Unless I misread that, it does make it look a little better here. But again, I can't use it because of the frame drops.

iSunrise

4th March 2013, 15:19

I'm sure madshi said that disabling the option "don't user linear light for smooth motion frame bleding" in rendering options would make the quality go up. Unless I misread that, it does make it look a little better here. But again, I can't use it because of the frame drops.
Oh, so you are talking about that option in particular, seems I misread that somehow.

Enabling or disabling that option on a GTX580 with 2D clocks (Core 405MHz/Memory 162.0MHz/Shaders 810MHz) doesn´t make any difference in utilization here. It stays the same at 50% GPU Load and 38% Memory Controller Load. Utilization is at 30% GPU Load and 20% Memory Controller Load without smooth motion.

I am not sure why you are having problems with that. Your GPU should be fast enough. Check your GPU utilization with GPU-Z and post a screenshot here.

Niyawa

4th March 2013, 16:10

Your GPU should be fast enough. Check your GPU utilization with GPU-Z and post a screenshot here.
You know which GPU I have? It's a Intel 4500MHD (GM45 Mobile) (http://i.imgur.com/I6RY6u9.png). It can't even playback 1080p in 10-bit.

iSunrise

4th March 2013, 16:24

You know which GPU I have? It's a Intel 4500MHD (GM45 Mobile) (http://i.imgur.com/I6RY6u9.png). It can't even playback 1080p in 10-bit.
A Geforce GTX260 should be fast enough for up to 30fps content, easily. It all depends on your scaling settings, the resolution/fps of your source files and your target resolution/Hz. If you don´t go overboard with algorithms like Jinc and you are not playing some crazy high fps interlaced content, you´re fine.

Niyawa

4th March 2013, 16:32

A Geforce GTX260 should be fast enough for up to 30fps content, easily. It all depends on your scaling settings, the resolution/fps of your source files and your target resolution/Hz. If you don´t go overboard with algorithms like Jinc and you are not playing some crazy high fps interlaced content, you´re fine.
I see. Thanks.

cyberbeing

4th March 2013, 17:50

Doing a bit more testing with Smooth Motion right now, it would appear 0.86.1 caused a minor performance regression with smooth motion + windowed mode + high framerate video on my GT440 DDR5.

With 0.86.1 my GT440 DDR5 bottlenecks with 50fps content in windowed mode.
Backbuffer queue drops to 0-4/4, Render Queue drops to 2-4/16 when the bottleneck occurs along with dropped frames.

With 0.86.0 my GT440 DDR5 is fine with 50fps content, but bottlenecks with 60fps content in windowed mode.
Backbuffer queue fluctuates between 0-4/4 & 3-4/4, Render Queue drops to 4-6/16 when the bottleneck occurs along with dropped frames.

Setting Windowed Mode "after intermediate render step" to flush & wait seems to counteract the dropped frames by preventing the Backbuffer Queue from falling to 0. madVR 0.86.1 (Backbuffer 1-3/4) is still slower than 0.86.0 (Backbuffer 2-3/4) even with this change. Yet setting flush and wait there creates a different bottleneck to my Render Queue on high framerate video when not using Smooth Motion, so it's not really a practical workaround.

Fullscreen Exclusive Mode is unaffected by this issue. For whatever reason, Fullscreen Exclusive GPU load is 15% lower compared to Windowed when scaling the SmoothMotion59.ytp patten with Smooth Motion enabled.

Nothing really noteworthy about this other than my GPU just being too weak, and quick to become bottnecked as the number of flushes performed by madVR in the render pipeline increase.

Niyawa

4th March 2013, 18:20

Oh yeah, I know this is almost totally unrelated to madVR but I really need some help with this.

When I use ReClock and I enable the "PAL SpeedDown (force to 24 fps)" option (screenshot) (http://i.imgur.com/bkpxAg2.png), my audio gets in some sort of slow motion and it's really annoying. I've already set madVR to treat 25p as 24p, and I've tried numerous ReClock options to see if I could fix that but nothing. The only way to not make that happen is to manually set the speed to "24p" in the media stream when the video is being played (screenshot) (http://i.imgur.com/ZvyaamY.png). It's the same window where you set "PAL SpeedDown (force to 24 fps)".

For reference, I have a 60hz screen.