madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[leeperry]

Hi again Lee.

I've disabled AC3Filter and gave a try to ffdshow, but I'm having problems using ffdshow to decode the audio of the videos (mainly ac3 contained in mkvs). Can you post here your ffdshow audio decoder settings so I can see if I'm doing anything wrong?

Btw, you say KMPlayer is the best player for audio/video (althought I'm only interested in videos). Right now I'm using MPC-HC, but I wanted to try KMPlayer and I'm having a weird issue: when I set Reclock as audio renderer, I get no sound and the Reclock icon doesn't load in taskbar, but if I select DirectSound Default Device as audio renderer, then I get the sound back, and Reclock loads ok. So you know why is this?
did you install Haali's Media Splitter? or better, use KMP's built-in MKV splitter, its jitter is much tighter...it makes Reclock a lot more happy :devil:

my ffdshow audio config is quite crazy, w/ VST Ozone4 running on all 5.1 streams to process binaural downmixes, etc...

I don't think KMP is the best audio player, I think it's uLilith in ASIO :D but KMP is great for movies, definitely! w/ Reclock+mVR, sky is the limit.

you may wanna run KMP in superspeed mode and disable its A/V transform filters...maybe that's the problem, but for Reclock problems it's prolly better to avoid polluting this thread, as Reclock has its own forum ;)

[cyberlolo]

You're right, this is a madVR topic. Sorry!!

And thanks again for your great help.

[flanger216]

Gonna have to agree with Mark_A_W on this... if you want to follow leeperry down his peculiar path of obsessiveness, then that's fine, but his claim that you have to recalibrate a display every three months is a whole heap of silly. Our professional color-correction stations aren't calibrated that often.

And I mean this in the gentlest, least confrontational way, but if he seriously thinks he can hear qualitative differences between two different builds of Reclock's sinc resampler then, well... no comment :p

Remember that the whole point is actually to enjoy watching the movies. Eventually, the brain's propensity for obsession takes over, and you're just sitting there, teeth clenched, disinterested in the artistry of the film, anxious over when the next judder glitch will occur. Seriously consider if you want to become one of these people. There is no 'perfect,' and the more illegitimately convinced you become of your ability to attain it, the more bat-poop crazy you become.

Above all, remember the prime truth of neuropsychology: the mind's ability to convince itself of things is a scarily underestimated one. Outside of a controlled experiment with oversight, A/B comparisons for minute details are worthless.

[leeperry]

if you want to follow leeperry down his peculiar path of obsessiveness, then that's fine, but his claim that you have to recalibrate a display every three months is a whole heap of silly. Our professional color-correction stations aren't calibrated that often.

And I mean this in the gentlest, least confrontational way, but if he seriously thinks he can hear qualitative differences between two different builds of Reclock's sinc resampler
well, sure, mastering studios do it on a weekly basis because they are retarded...you should call some of them to let them know, I'm sure they'll thank you for it!

and if you can't hear a difference between Reclock b58(running the 1.5MB libsamplerate, which is also sold as a commercial product, and carries very impressive specs) and Reclock b62(running libresample, which is a 100kb crappy algorithm from Audacity...that screws up the phase linearity and the THD/THD+N rates to stellar extends), well...go run to your nearest otologist I'd say http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/priareos.gif

no hard feelings, but dumbing things down ain't cool...and luckily mVR hasn't been engineered by ppl like you. Time to fill my ignore list even further ;)

[Astrophizz]

The size of a program doesn't correlate to it's quality...

And also (sorry for OT) but can you even tell the phase linearity or THD without just listening to some artificially generated sine wave audio signal? Likewise for recalibrating a display every week. Can you as an end user see the difference in video that you watch (especially with all your postprocessing)? Do you actually look/listen for these things when you watch films?

[leeperry]

libsamplerate is HUGE because it's been optimized to death, it's clearly visible in measurements.

a weekly basis is way overkill, especially w/ a cheapo <$300 colorimeter...but when I recalibrate every month roughly, yes ΔE is usually >5...I like to keep it at 1/2 max(>3 is not D65 anymore, duh)

http://thumbnails13.imagebam.com/6856/23ef2668554712.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/23ef2668554712) http://thumbnails25.imagebam.com/6856/d781d568554714.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/d781d568554714)

I also like to control the gamma curves as much as my HC3100 allows me to, and make my gamut mappings follow my UHP lamp color drifting, yes..I'm guilty! besides I'm colorblind, so I don't see colors the same way "normal" ppl do, to me a color is either OK or OFF...there's no in-between, try to imagine that I'd be seeing 256K colors when you're actually seeing 16M..to give a rough idea.

well, the sound is utterly distorted and the stereo image is completely foobar'ed in the new Reclock resampler...it's not too hard to hear actually.

and yes, I like to watch my movies on a perfectly calibrated display, in the proper gamut, at 24.000fps in 48.000Hz in KS or WASAPI.

99% of the population watches movies in 60Hz on an uncalbrated display(w/ a crappy native CR like 600:1 on most LCD's) in DirectSound(which cannot be made bit-perfect on Vista/7: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49350&st=200 )...I don't think these ppl would care too much about mVR in the first place, and I don't even understand why they come whining in this thread tbh.

you know, I've annoyed a hell lot of ppl(and I couldn't thank them enough!) to be happy w/ my current set up...it's mostly a passion, and as they say on head-fi: Head-Fi, the only place where you can plug headphones into a laptop, have them not work, and say "thank goodness it's just the laptop" :D

anyway, hopefully madshi didn't give up on us poor mortals, as I would die to see a D3D exclusive mode in mVR http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/mzarella.gif

[Hypernova]

@leeperry I am right in the kind of people you just describe :) I'm here because I saw one clearly different with madVR. The one that I posted way back in this thread. I'm not criticizing you or anything though. I kind of learn to understand that people have different passion. I can't hear any different between DSound and KS or WASAPI on my fairly mid-fi DAC/AMP+headphone, but I do use it when listening to music nonetheless.

On that note, do you (or anyone else) have any suggestion for people like me who don't want to buy a colorimeter? Any rough calibration I can made? Can I take adventage of cr3dlut? I just play around with Xbox 360 settings the other day and try the "wide" (or deep, not sure) color range or something and it seem that the picture is way less "watched out", though maybe it's just darker. So I'm wondering if I can do anything for my desktop setup too. I read somewhere that my LCD (Dell 3008WFP) has a fairly wide color gamut and it's actually hurt the color quality if not calibrate correctly.

[cyberlolo]

libsamplerate is HUGE because it's been optimized to death, it's clearly visible in measurements.

a weekly basis is way overkill, especially w/ a cheapo <$300 colorimeter...but when I recalibrate every month roughly, yes ΔE is usually >5...I like to keep it at 1/2 max(>3 is not D65 anymore, duh)

well, the sound is utterly distorted and the stereo image is completely foobar'ed in the new Reclock resampler...it's not too hard to hear actually.

and yes, I like to watch my movies on a perfectly calibrated display, in the proper gamut, at 24.000fps in 48.000Hz in KS or WASAPI.

99% of the population watches movies in 60Hz on an uncalbrated display(w/ a crappy native CR like 600:1 on most LCD's) in DirectSound(which cannot be made bit-perfect on Vista/7: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49350&st=200 )...I don't think these ppl would care too much about mVR in the first place, and I don't even understand why they come whining in this thread tbh.

anyway, hopefully madshi didn't give up on us poor mortals, as I would die to see a D3D exclusive mode in mVR http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/mzarella.gif

Lee, now you're talking about ReClock, the problem is that b58 isn't downloadable anymore, at least I only can find b62 in the web. Do you know from where I can download b58 to see that difference?

And by the way, you also talk about watching movies with bit-perfect sound. But AFAIK, if you're upsampling the audio, you can't get bit-perfect, do you?

[leeperry]

Lee, now you're talking about ReClock, the problem is that b58 isn't downloadable anymore, at least I only can find b62 in the web. Do you know from where I can download b58 to see that difference?

And by the way, you also talk about watching movies with bit-perfect sound. But AFAIK, if you're upsampling the audio, you can't get bit-perfect, do you?
well, many ppl whine about Reclock resampling the audio...yet they actually watch movies in DirectSound, which does exactly that! so it's just nonsense :rolleyes:

You can get Reclock to either pass-through 100% bit-perfect untouched audio(but the smoothness will most likely suffer, except if you're a magician..over S/PDIF and whatnot), or get it to resample(at whatever sample rate you like) to follow the video clock drifting.

there's no question that Reclock b58's resampling in KS sounds better than KMixer on XP...can't tell on W7.

I posted the old Reclock versions here: http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=242787&postcount=120
@leeperry I am right in the kind of people you just describe :) I'm here because I saw one clearly different with madVR. The one that I posted way back in this thread. I'm not criticizing you or anything though. I kind of learn to understand that people have different passion. I can't hear any different between DSound and KS or WASAPI on my fairly mid-fi DAC/AMP+headphone, but I do use it when listening to music nonetheless.

On that note, do you (or anyone else) have any suggestion for people like me who don't want to buy a colorimeter? Any rough calibration I can made? Can I take adventage of cr3dlut? I just play around with Xbox 360 settings the other day and try the "wide" (or deep, not sure) color range or something and it seem that the picture is way less "watched out", though maybe it's just darker. So I'm wondering if I can do anything for my desktop setup too. I read somewhere that my LCD (Dell 3008WFP) has a fairly wide color gamut and it's actually hurt the color quality if not calibrate correctly.
yes, watching movies on a wide gamut display completely screws up the colorimetry.

see what this guy said after he fixed his JVC RS1 gamut from wide to SMPTE-C: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11937064&postcount=90

you know, perfect colorimetry, bit-perfect audio, perfect smoothness w/ mVR+Reclock....you only know a good thing until your lose it, and any improvement can only be felt after you've tried it.

most naysayers here have prolly no idea about either of these 3 things...but it's like Reclock, once you've tried it in a 24Hz multiple there simply is no way back :devil:

you can't set up a display w/o a colorimeter, the human eye simply isn't accurate enough..and our brain is so well made that it will compensate for any crappy white point reference, you should be able to use test patterns to calibrate brightness/contrast and general R/G/B setttings...but setting up custom 2.3/2.4 gamma curves will be rather hard :D

you can grab a Spyder2 device maybe, it should be cheap second hand...it'll be quite inaccurate, but it's still better than nothing I guess.

All I can say is that the first time I've used the MPC gamut mapping script, my jaw dropped! wow oh wow, watching US movies in SMPTE-C is a blessing...it used to require very expensive external scalers for a reason, just like a $800 Burson headphones amp sounds goooood.

[Mark_A_W]

well, the sound is utterly distorted and the stereo image is completely foobar'ed in the new Reclock resampler...it's not too hard to hear actually.


What Stereo Image?

You listen with headphones. They don't image at all in the proper way compared to real speakers, which is why I only use them at work.


Did you test it with decent stereo speakers and a blind test?


For distortion headphones are perfect. For imaging, nup.

[pirlouy]

you only know a good thing until your lose it, and any improvement can only be felt after you've tried it.

So it's easier to stay ignorant, like this, you're happy with what you have. You, you'll never be happy, there will always be something which can be improved. :devil:

Fortunately, most people don't need to recalibrate screen without being disappointed, and don't try to hear differences between DS or WASAPI.

But this is surely guys like you who allow improvements, so keep searching for better ! :)

[leeperry]

So it's easier to stay ignorant, like this, you're happy with what you have. You, you'll never be happy, there will always be something which can be improved. :devil:

Fortunately, most people don't need to recalibrate screen without being disappointed, and don't try to hear differences between DS or WASAPI.

But this is surely guys like you who allow improvements, so keep searching for better ! :)
well you see my friend, that's where you're wrong I'm afraid...as I'm currently very happy w/ my set up, as it happens to match all my expectations(and even exceed them sometimes http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif)

I primarily watch movies to be blown away, and it happens to do exactly that...mVR is simply astounding smoothness/colorimetry and sharpness wise :cool:

a D3D exclusive mode would most likely fill the gap for the occasional hiccups I can see, because windowed mode isn't too great for video playback on windows..

sure, ignorance is bliss...it's a well known principle.

[cyberlolo]

well, many ppl whine about Reclock resampling the audio...yet they actually watch movies in DirectSound, which does exactly that! so it's just nonsense :rolleyes:

You can get Reclock to either pass-through 100% bit-perfect untouched audio(but the smoothness will most likely suffer, except if you're a magician..over S/PDIF and whatnot), or get it to resample(at whatever sample rate you like) to follow the video clock drifting.

there's no question that Reclock b58's resampling in KS sounds better than KMixer on XP...can't tell on W7.

I posted the old Reclock versions here: http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=242787&postcount=120

Cheers, Lee. I'll give a try to b58, and if I have to choose between smoothness with Reclock upsampling the audio or having bit-perfect audio, I'll clearly prefer smoothness when watching movies.

By the way, for those who could have the same problem as I had with KMPlayer and Reclock (when I set Reclock as audio renderer I had no sound and Reclock didn't load), I solved it by adding Reclock as a personalized filter in KMPlayer, and then giving the highest priority to it.

So coming back to madVR, I agree it's PQ is outstanding, although I'm still missing that madVR doesn't have it's own color controls (brightness and contrast), because in my HTPC, that means having white clipping in level 234 (I have white when it would have to be a very light gray), and not having the chance to preserve wtw if I'd want to (in some scenes of some movies, there's visible info above 235, such details in white shirts or clouds in a bright sky, but they're all clipped white in madVR with PC Levels selected, so that info is lost).

Changing to TV Levels in madVR is not a solution for me, because that way I can have btb and wtw, but the adjustments I have to do in the TV (mainly lower the brightness) to clip blacks under 17, make the image too dark and a bit washed-out.

Does anybody know if there's a way to achieve this with madVR?

[leeperry]

most likely your display will process picture settings in more than 8 bit, so I'd leave the PC output "as is".

but if you try what I already suggested, you really shouldn't need to clip anything whatsoever.

well, it's like all the ppl trying to get bitstream HD audio working, what could possibly be the point? Oh my, SQ is awesome! too bad the picture keeps hiccuping every few seconds :D

but well, maybe madshi is taking so long coz he's got a secret weapon being polished silently :devil:

[cyberlolo]

most likely your display will process picture settings in more than 8 bit, so I'd leave the PC output "as is".

but if you try what I already suggested, you really shouldn't need to clip anything whatsoever.

well, it's like all the ppl trying to get bitstream HD audio working, what could possibly be the point? Oh my, SQ is awesome! too bad the picture keeps hiccuping every few seconds :D

but well, maybe madshi is taking so long coz he's got a secret weapon being polished silently :devil:

No, I'm not clipping anything. It's madVR who's clipping all values from 235-255. You can clearly see what I'm saying using the AVSHD calibration test pattern (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496, then download and execute the mp4.exe to extract the video files). Well, if you play the Basic Settings.mp4 file, and go to minute 6:00, you'll see that the only flashing bars are 230-233 (maybe 234), but 235-254 don't flash, they're all the same white! And doing so, all detail over reference white (235) that is present on every movie, is lost. If I use another renderer (such as EVR), then BTB and WTW are preserved, and then I can calibrate the output with CCC (Catalyst) Avivo Video Controls lowering brightness in order to have 0-16 levels as total black (all the same, as needs to be), and begin to grow from 17 with a light gray. In the other hand, I can preserve all the grayscale up to 255 (doing so, total -peak- white is 255, 254 is light gray, 253 a little bit darker, and so on, as can be seen with the same Basic Settings.mp4 file and having all flashing bars up to 254...), and that way, I don't lose any information (peak whites over reference white), and avoid banding problems also.

What I don't understand is that madVR claims to be designed for the possible highest quality over anything else, so why is it clipping 235-255 values?? That's lowering the quality!!

[leeperry]

set mVR to do TV>PC conversion, set your ATi drivers to untouched 0-255 RGB, set your TV to 0-255 RGB input and there you go...movies are only 16-235, you (mostly) don't care for the other levels.

[pankov]

lee,
he is telling us that he is particularly caring about WTW (235-255) and he wants to find a way to do this with mVR
I can't help him but I think I understand what he wants.

[leeperry]

well BTB/WTW in windows will be preserved if he uses what I just explained.

if he wants them in movies(which is totally uncalled for, except for wrongly encoded files and/or 0-255 videogames captures), he can just disable the TV>PC conversion in mVR.

[pankov]

I agree with you but he wants only WTW. He wants to clip BTB and have absolute black at 16

[leeperry]

I agree with you but he wants only WTW. He wants to clip BTB and have absolute black at 16
fixing an uncalibrated display w/ such hacks in 8bit on the PC side is not advisable IMO.

I guess he could maybe make a custom 3D lut, not sure.

[cyberlolo]

Ok, I'll try to explain it better.

I have my TV basically calibrated to a proper levels of brightness and contrast.

What I want now is to calibrate the signal from my HTPC to meet the following:

- Best PQ possible: For this, I use madVR.
- Clipped BTB: This means that all values from 0-16 are total black, and begin to grow from 17. I can get this with EVR (adjusting brightness in CCC), and with madVR too (without any adjustment). This can be seen in this image:

http://www.gandario.com/cal_img/Brightness.jpg

- Preserved WTW: This means that all the grayscale up to 254 is showed (white at 254, 253 light gray, 252 a little bit darker, and so on...). Following Munsil&Spears recommendations, this is needed to show details over reference white (235) that exist in ALL movies. If you calibrate to 235 as total white, then 236, 237... 254 will be the same white, and you lose that detail. Ok, this can be seen on this image (using EVR renderer and CCC brightness/contrast controls):

http://www.gandario.com/cal_img/Contrast_EVR.jpg

But, and here is the problem, when I use madVR, the CCC adjustments are ignored, and I can only get this:

http://www.gandario.com/cal_img/Contrast_madVR.jpg

As can be seen, with madVR, I lose detail from 235 to 253, what can be (and is recommended to be) preserved with EVR.

If I switch to PC Levels on madVR, then yes, I have WTW, but also BTB (that I cannot get rid off, because madVR doesn't include brightness controls, and the CCC Avivo Video is ignored), what is undesirable because there's no BTB info on any movie, and you'll be getting a wash-out image and the black (level 16 always) will be gray:

http://www.gandario.com/cal_img/Brightness_TVLevel.jpg

So is there any solution to get a proper calibration 16-254 with madVR?

[cyberbeing]

So is there any solution to get a proper calibration 16-254 with madVR?

Try creating a 3dlut with:

Input_RGB_Black_White 16 255
Output_RGB_Black_White 0 255

(Do not set the YCbCr_Full_Range parameter)

[Hypernova]

@leepery Thanks for your suggestion, though I decided to stop myself at this level for color quality. I have already spend too much on other things

[cyberlolo]

Try creating a 3dlut with:

Input_RGB_Black_White 16 255
Output_RGB_Black_White 0 255

(Do not set the YCbCr_Full_Range parameter)

Yeah, I think that could make it. But I've never used 3dlut before and I'd like you to confirm that I'll do it right, please. For example, for HD content:

1) Create a file named HD_Video.txt with the following content:


Input_Bit_Depth 8
Input_Video_Format HD YCbCr
Output_Bit_Depth 16
Output_Video_Format HD RGB_Video
Input_RGB_Black_White 16 255
Output_RGB_Black_White 0 255

2) Execute cr3dlut HD_Video.txt "HD - Video.3dlut"
3) Place "HD - Video.3dlut" in madVR folder, and enable "use 3dlut" in madVR settings.

Is that so?

[yesgrey]

So is there any solution to get a proper calibration 16-254 with madVR?
Try creating a 3dlut with:

Input_RGB_Black_White 16 255
Output_RGB_Black_White 0 255

(Do not set the YCbCr_Full_Range parameter)
That will not work. In his case the "Input_RGB_Black_White 16 255" parameter will be ignored.

In a future version this will be possible, but currently it's not.

[cyberlolo]

That will not work. In his case the "Input_RGB_Black_White 16 255" parameter will be ignored.

In a future version this will be possible, but currently it's not.

Yes, I've just checked it, and doesn't work. So I'm back at the start again:

I don't understand that madVR is designed for the possible highest quality over anything else, but it's not possible to have control over brightness and contrast so it can be perfectly calibrated (0-16 total black, and preserve grayscale up to 254). And again, that's seriously lowering the PQ!!

[monohouse]

I've read some of the things that are going on here, but I have not understood exactly what this is for, it could be helpful that the first post contain more information about whom this is intended for, and maybe a bit more clearly what this is all about, I only understood the scaling part but I have no idea what the difference is....

from what I read so far this is primarily for HDMI interface displays to overcome the defective design of it, does it have any uses for DVI/CRT ?
what are the other functions used for ? what is chroma upsampling for ? and the YCbCr -> RGB conversion is always necessary ?
and isn't gamma calibration is best used on the display itself ?

I tried it but I did not notice much improvement in the scaling methods, and I tried to use the highest possible, I tested it with the overlay mixer in MPC, I noticed lots of stutter and considerably increased cpu (twice more than with simple overlay mixer) and gpu usage (from 0 before, to about 50% after on a AMD HD3870 at 985 mhz), also depending on the 3dlut option an increase in video ram usage (which is good so as to make that ram used for a change), but let's say I don't mind all that, as long as I understood the exact purpose of it, is this for converting video using the graph or for video playing ?

[Mark_A_W]

Cyberlolo

I don't understand why you can't run full range levels (0-255), and then just set the brightness on your display so black is at 16?

[cyberlolo]

Cyberlolo

I don't understand why you can't run full range levels (0-255), and then just set the brightness on your display so black is at 16?

Because if I do that, the TV brightness has to be the lowest possible (and it has 61 values), but then the image is too dark in general. When I use EVR I can adjust the brightness in CCC, and the image isn't so dark, but then EVR has worse PQ overall.

So I'll use madVR but it's very annoying that it hasn't it's own brightness/contrast controls so we can achieve 16-254...

[Mark_A_W]

Sounds like you need to set the brightness as low as it will go and adjust GAMMA.

[cyberlolo]

Sounds like you need to set the brightness as low as it will go and adjust GAMMA.

Maybe, but GAMMA cannot be adjusted with the user controls of the TV. It needs to be done with the service menu, so I will make it when I ISF calibrate it. Until then, I'm afraid there's no solution?

But one question: don't you guys have this problem? it's only me who cares about wtw with madVR? Because I'm feeling like a green dog or something. Nobody has ever asked about this issue?

[Mark_A_W]

Maybe, but GAMMA cannot be adjusted with the user controls of the TV. It needs to be done with the service menu, so I will make it when I ISF calibrate it. Until then, I'm afraid there's no solution?

But one question: don't you guys have this problem? it's only me who cares about wtw with madVR? Because I'm feeling like a green dog or something. Nobody has ever asked about this issue?


You adjust GAMMA at the source. You can adjust it in the ATi/Nvidia settings, by colour.

One day, I hope to do this adjustment using the madVR 3DLut.


And yes, I do care about wtw, which is one reason why I run full range and set my brightness on the display so that black is at 16ish (it's complex, the black level depends on the average picture level...).

(And the other reason to run full range unmolested 0-255 with Black at 16 and white at 235 is to avoid banding due to the evil levels expansion.)

[yesgrey]

I don't understand that madVR is designed for the possible highest quality over anything else, but it's not possible to have control over brightness and contrast so it can be perfectly calibrated (0-16 total black, and preserve grayscale up to 254). And again, that's seriously lowering the PQ!!
madVR is not yet finished, and of course that would be added.

it's only me who cares about wtw with madVR? Because I'm feeling like a green dog or something. Nobody has ever asked about this issue?
No you aren't. I also like to setup my projector in a similar way. For example, I like to use 10-245. 16-254 is not very good, because it crushes too much the blacks, and generally 245 is a good WTW limiting value. That's why I have changed cr3dlut to include a way for doing it. Though, I will need a little more time before releasing it. Juts be a little more patient. In the meanwhile, you could try using ffdshow's levels filter to achieve it.

[cyberlolo]

madVR is not yet finished, and of course that would be added.


No you aren't. I also like to setup my projector in a similar way. For example, I like to use 10-245. 16-254 is not very good, because it crushes too much the blacks, and generally 245 is a good WTW limiting value. That's why I have changed cr3dlut to include a way for doing it. Though, I will need a little more time before releasing it. Juts be a little more patient. In the meanwhile, you could try using ffdshow's levels filter to achieve it.

But using the ffdshow's levels filter, if you watch a movie with horizontal black bars up and down, they're not affected by the filter, and they're seen gray instead of black...

[cyberlolo]

But using the ffdshow's levels filter, if you watch a movie with horizontal black bars up and down, they're not affected by the filter, and they're seen gray instead of black...

This is what I mean:

http://www.gandario.com/cal_img/Gray_Horizontal_Bars.jpg

[yesgrey]

But using the ffdshow's levels filter, if you watch a movie with horizontal black bars up and down, they're not affected by the filter, and they're seen gray instead of black...
Have you tried checking the box "Process whole image" in ffdshow levels settings?

[flanger216]

well, sure, mastering studios do it on a weekly basis because they are retarded...you should call some of them to let them know, I'm sure they'll thank you for it!

and if you can't hear a difference between Reclock b58(running the 1.5MB libsamplerate, which is also sold as a commercial product, and carries very impressive specs) and Reclock b62(running libresample, which is a 100kb crappy algorithm from Audacity...that screws up the phase linearity and the THD/THD+N rates to stellar extends), well...go run to your nearest otologist I'd say http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/priareos.gif

no hard feelings, but dumbing things down ain't cool...and luckily mVR hasn't been engineered by ppl like you. Time to fill my ignore list even further ;)

Yowza. I realize he's apparently 'ignored' me, so, like my last post, I offer this to whom he gives 'advice.'

Let's go ahead and invert his egregious language and put it this way: why doesn't he call up USC's professional intermediary lab and let them know that not color calibrating every week is "retarded?" I'm sure they'll be very impressed with his Wikipedia readings.

If I were actually having hearing problems, I'm sure I'd rather go to an audiologist. Unless he's implying I have an ear-infection...? I'm also disinclined to discuss psychoacoustical theory with someone who 'tests' stereo imaging with a pair of headphones. Or with someone who spells FUBAR as "foobar'ed."

Absolutism is not the same thing as being smart, and, if anything, I'm attempting to shed a more complex light on his grandstanding proclamations. We can pursue the ideal of superb/near-perfect quality (and of course I am too; my last post was making fun of myself as much as anyone else), and we can do it without resorting to hyperbole and egomaniacal childishness.

[cyberlolo]

Have you tried checking the box "Process whole image" in ffdshow levels settings?

Didn't work. It works with any other renderer but with madVR it doesn't.

You have said that you have your setup calibrated to 10-245. But are you using madVR? If so, how have you done it?

By the way, I mainly watch mkv videos (movies and tv shows encoded with AVC). I know that wtw info is present in DVDs and Blu-Rays, but I'm not sure if it's present in mkvs too. Is it possible that in the enconding process all the values fall in the 16-235 range (as it should be in the first time), or wtw info is preserved too?

[yesgrey]

You have said that you have your setup calibrated to 10-245. But are you using madVR? If so, how have you done it?
Yes. Considering that I am cr3dlut's author, I have just added that option to the code. ;)

Is it possible that in the enconding process all the values fall in the 16-235 range (as it should be in the first time), or wtw info is preserved too?
Only if it's an incorrectly done encode. With a correct encode, it should has the exact same levels of the original.

[leeperry]

I know that wtw info is present in DVDs and Blu-Rays
well, it's a rather complicated matter...just like bluray's are supposed to be using the REC.709 gamut, but are in most cases color managed on SMPTE-C CRT screens :devil:

some ppl think that whatever BTB/WTW shouldn't matter, as some encoders seem to "pad" data in there...OTOH, at Kazuya's request, Seb.26 added a dynamic levels conversion in ffdshow:

http://thumbnails6.imagebam.com/6899/f8f2f968981587.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f8f2f968981587)

it will dynamically dig for valuable data and when properly set, you can get automatic 13-238 conversion...you get the idea! but be careful w/ padded data! I personally don't like it but I know Kazuya couldn't live w/o this thing, just like I cannot watch movies w/o LSF+GrainFactory3 running in realtime at 48fps http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/mastersam.gif

[cyberlolo]

well, it's a rather complicated matter...just like bluray's are supposed to be using the REC.709 gamut, but are in most cases color managed on SMPTE-C CRT screens :devil:

some ppl think that whatever BTB/WTW shouldn't matter, as some encoders seem to "pad" data in there...OTOH, at Kazuya's request, Seb.26 added a dynamic levels conversion in ffdshow:

http://thumbnails6.imagebam.com/6899/f8f2f968981587.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f8f2f968981587)

it will dynamically dig for valuable data and when properly set, you can get automatic 13-238 conversion...you get the idea! but be careful w/ padded data! I personally don't like it but I know Kazuya couldn't live w/o this thing, just like I cannot watch movies w/o LSF+GrainFactory3 running in realtime at 48fps http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/mastersam.gif

The problem with ffdshow's level filter is that, if I set madVR to output TV Levels, then when I watch a movie with top and bottom black bars, they're showed gray instead of black, and it's very annoying.

And if madVR outputs PC Levels, then it automatically clips 0-16 and 235-254 data, so I guess the Seb's BTB/WTW level filter can do nothing because the possible BTB/WTW is already clipped. Am I wrong?

[cyberlolo]

Yes. Considering that I am cr3dlut's author, I have just added that option to the code. ;)

Lol. Well, of course that's one of the benefits of being the author. Ok, we'll wait for your next version of c3dlut to achieve it then. Do you expect to release it soon?

Only if it's an incorrectly done encode. With a correct encode, it should has the exact same levels of the original.

That's what I thought. But I'm making some tests with different movies and tv shows, and I haven't found any scene where wtw is present (or at least I haven't been capable of finding it). Can you tell me some movie's scenes where wtw is present so I can download them and check it?

Thanks for your help, guys!

[leeperry]

Am I wrong?
I honestly don't know...your clipping story doesn't make sense to me...get your display properly calibrated in 0-255, output full range RGB from your computer, disable mVR's level conversion, use Seb's levels thingie and you're good to go...any actual BTB/WTW will be visible if that's obsessing you so much, I know Kazuya couldn't sleep at night knowing he's missing a few levels :D

[jmartinr]

The problem with ffdshow's level filter is that, if I set madVR to output TV Levels, then when I watch a movie with top and bottom black bars, they're showed gray instead of black, and it's very annoying.

And if madVR outputs PC Levels, then it automatically clips 0-16 and 235-254 data, so I guess the Seb's BTB/WTW level filter can do nothing because the possible BTB/WTW is already clipped. Am I wrong?

As mentioned use "process whole image" and set at RGB conversion "input levels" to "Full range". IIRC this value is used to calculate the black value for the black bars.

[cyberlolo]

set at RGB conversion "input levels" to "Full range".

Where is that setting in ffdshow?

[yesgrey]

Do you expect to release it soon?
I don't know.

Can you tell me some movie's scenes where wtw is present so I can download them and check it?
I saw a movie where the wtw were very noticeable, but I don't know if you would be able to find it...
It's a french movie, "8 femmes". There is a scene with a window that has light entering through it where the whites are crushed when using 16-235.

set at RGB conversion "input levels" to "Full range".
He wants to use madVR, so, he cannot convert to RGB using ffdshow. madVR only supports YV12 at its input.

[TripleH]

Hi friends,

I'm running an HTPC with a Core 2 Quad Q9400 CPU and a Radeon HD 4670 512MB video card, which works fine with madVR.

Now I want to upgrade my video card to one from the Radeon 5XXX series.

I think I'm going to get the Radeon HD 5570 - will it be able to handle madVR like my current HD 4670 card ?

According to the specs, the differences are the following:

Texture units: 32 on the 4670 Vs. 20 on the 5570
Core Clock: 750Mhz Vs. 650Mhz
Memory Clock: 1000Mhz Vs. 900Mhz

On the other hand, the 5570 has 627M transistors, while the 4670 has 514M.

So what do you think ?

[yesgrey]

So what do you think ?
You should compare the stream processors number and memory bandwidth, that's what madVR needs...

[namaiki]

From what I have read in TripleH's, it does not seem that 4670-> 5570 is an upgrade at all. :confused:

edit: 5570 = 400 stream processing units @ essentially 650 -> 260,000 'units'
4670 = 320 stream processing units @ 750 -> 240,000 'units'

edit: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/02/ati-radeon-hd-5570-review/ "essentially a parallel move"

[jmartinr]

I don't know.
He wants to use madVR, so, he cannot convert to RGB using ffdshow. madVR only supports YV12 at its input.

I know, but it's still that value that's used for calculating the blackness level of the black bars in YV12.