madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ashlar42]

So it's enough to switch tp D3D9 w/o disabling FSE?
In my experience, that's the case, yes.

[Werewolfy]

Is it worth using SuperRes Anti-ringing and Bloat? With the new deringing and anti-halo, they take up the resources I use for SuperRes ringing, which one is worth more? I overall disliked de-haloing effects though.

I find anti-Bloating with SuperRes useless, it doesn't do any good to the picture. Anti-ringing with SuperRes has some small benefits so if you have the ressources, use it.

[Q-the-STORM]

You lost me here, why am I losing frames? The original 24 should still be there, is just that I see more frames now (the computed and interpolated ones), or you are referring to the fact that I still do not have a perfect multiple of the original frames by an integer number?

Sorry to tell you, but one of the huge drawbacks of using SVP at 60Hz is that you actually lose every second original frame...

on order to interpolate to 60fps without jerky playback, you have to interpolate to 120fps and drop every second frame... so this is what happens:

(o=original i=interpolated, numbers=framenumbers)

o01 o02 o03 o04 o05 o06

you got these original 6 frames....
what SVP does is adding 4 frames in between every frame

o01 i01 i02 i03 i04 o02 i05 i06 i07 i08 o03 i09 i10 i11 i12 o04 i13 i14 i15 i16 o05 i17 i18 i19 i20 o06 i21 i22 i23 i24

so 6 frames become 30 frames, which means 24 frames become 120 frames... but since you play back at 60Hz, you have to drop every second frame... which means this is what you get:

o01 i02 i04 i05 i07 o03 i10 i12 i13 i15 o05 i18 i20 i21 i23

with every second frame dropped, 30 frames turn to 15 frames, so 120 frames turn to 60 frames...
but now half of the original frames are missing (o2 o4 and o6)...

if they only dropped interpolated frames when needed, you would get jerky playback...

that's why it's called 5:2 interpolation, you mulitply by 5, then divide by 2...
that's the reason the next TV I'm buying has to accept 120Hz signal, that way SVP can just multiply by 5 and not have to drop frames...

[huhn]

think about 48 fps and smoothmotion.

[ionutm80]

Sorry to tell you, but one of the huge drawbacks of using SVP at 60Hz is that you actually lose every second original frame...

on order to interpolate to 60fps without jerky playback, you have to interpolate to 120fps and drop every second frame...

Wow, thanks for clarifying ... I did not know that. So SVP is worth only if the TV can accept 120Hz?

[ionutm80]

think about 48 fps and smoothmotion.

You are saying that I should use SVP at 48 fps and also activate smoothmotion in madVR? I was told that they are redundant and with SVP, smoothmotion is not needed ...

[huhn]

Wow, thanks for clarifying ... I did not know that. So SVP is worth only if the TV can accept 120Hz?
you should ask that your eyes.

You are saying that I should use SVP at 48 fps and also activate smoothmotion in madVR? I was told that they are redundant and with SVP, smoothmotion is not needed ...

it all depends on what you are doing. this setup isn't removing original frames.

[XTrojan]

Interpolating with SVP instead of using built in TV interpolation is just a bad idea, SVP has far more artifacts. SVP is more for monitors that can reach 120hz not TV screens.

There's also TVs that can reverse telecine or something similar if you want to play 24p movies at 60p with no issues, afaik all modern sony TVs can do this so go buy one of those.

[rivera]

Could anyone give me an advice?

Currently I am using GTX580 with madVR & 1080p TV.
For 1080p remuxes, 720p rips & 4K samples, I see no drops with these settings (ver. 0.90.19):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
chroma upscaling:
NNedi3-32
activate SuperRes filter, strength=4

image downscaling:
SoftCubic, softness=70
activate anti-ringing filter

image doubling=OFF

image upscaling:
Jinc
activate anti-ringing filter

upscaling refinement:
crispen edges=1.1
enhance detail=1.2
AdaptiveSharpen=0.7
activate anti-ringing filter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I need to set up another PC with madVR (Z170 mobo, i3-6100).
This PC will be used with Panasonic plasma (PR65VT60) with 3DLut.
And I was going to use GTX960 graphics card (rather cold and quite for HTPC).

My questions are:
1. Will the new card (GTX960) be able to work with at least the same madVR settings without drops? (but without 3DLut)
2. Same question as above but with 3DLut.

Thanks in advance for answers.

-------------------------------------------

Actually, I suspect I do not understand madVR settings properly.
For example, may be I do not need NNedi at all.
See, I have 1080p plasma TV, my content is 95% 1080p remuxes, and other 5% are 720p & 4K.
May be for that I need some other settings?

[Q-the-STORM]

well chroma always needs to be upscaled, so NNEDI3 is definitely beneficial... though on 720p content, you should use nnedi3 on image upscaling instead of chroma... that makes a much bigger difference... in chroma you should only use nnedi3 if you have maxed out all other settings, since it barely makes a difference to super-xbr...

btw making profiles for each resolution (SD, 720p, 1080p, 2160p) is always good, doesn't take that long to test settings for each one with no frame drops...
Just create a profile group in scaling algorithms and add 4 profiles with all scaling algorithm entries (chroma upscaling, image upscaling etc)

This is what my auto select rules look like on my profile group
if (srcWidth < 950) and (srcHeight < 700) "SD"
if (srcWidth >= 950) and (srcWidth <= 1420) and (srcHeight >= 700) and (srcHeight <= 740) "720p"
if (srcWidth < 2000) and (srcHeight < 1100) "1080p"
else "2160p"
that way profiles will be selected based on resolution and you can tweak settings for each resolution...
that way you can have different settings for each resolution, makes a lot more sense....

[madshi]

Small request:

Current option:
"disable scaling if image size changes by only:"
Could you add a sub-option below it:
"allow integer-factor resizes to hit the same target"

to have for example a 1918x1078 video upscale to 3836x2156, for performance reasons.
Such an option would be very hard to understand for users. An option like that belongs would also better fit into the "trade quality" section. Anyway, atm I don't want to do this. Maybe in some future version.

if i set supersamplig image doubling activate but upscalling refinement doesn t activate
Ok. So how can I reproduce this problem? I'll need a step-by-step guide. Meaning: I need your "settings.bin" file (or "HKCU\Software\madshi\madVR\Settings", if there's no "settings.bin" on your PC). Then I need to know the exact source and target resolutions we're talking about. And a debug log. All this from the situation where image doubling activates but upscaling refinement does not.

But could you please fix the bug with italic subs that breaks the 'move subs to bottom of the screen' option? It's the only issue I have with MadVR after months of use :)
As I've said many times before, it's on my to do list. But it needs to be fixed in XySubFilter, which is very painful for me to do. So I don't know when I'll get to that.

I was HOPING madVR could MOVE subtitles to the very bottom black bar (for 21:9 content format, which this foreign film used), but no matter which settings I adjusted, I couldn't move the subtitles anywhere. The subtitles were integrated into the ripped MKV file itself and were not coming from a separate subtitles file. I know the subtitles were not hard-coded because I could turn them off completely...

- Can madVR move non-hard-coded subtitles to the bottom of the screen, where black bar is located in 21:9 film content?
- If madVR CAN move the subtitles to the bottom of the screen (on the black bar), then which settings do I need to adjust and which values should I use for those settings?
That depends on the subtitle format (e.g. text vs bitmap) and the subtitle renderer (internal MPC-HC/BE vs XySubFilter) you're using.

Upon toggling the two states of "linear" LUTs (65280 ending and 65535 ending) while playing some movie content, I find the images look better (more natural) when the LUT is in the OS default state (ending at 65280). But this may be subjective.

I wish madVR could completely disable the LUT processing instead of setting the LUT linear. In that case even when the LUT is loaded, madVR could read the LUT and apply it internally in high bit depth like it does for Overlay mode.
I may do that in some future version, but it's low priority for now.

1. Will the new card (GTX960) be able to work with at least the same madVR settings without drops? (but without 3DLut)
2. Same question as above but with 3DLut.
I've no idea. Check some gaming benchmarks. If the 960 is faster in games than the 580 then it should probably work.

[madshi]

madVR v0.90.20 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* tweaked deringing algorithm some more
* added workaround for weird crash with latest AMD beta drivers
Not much time for madVR this weekend, so only small changes. Feedback about the tweaked deringing algo welcome.

[aufkrawall]

Thanks for the changes, is there now a grain detection implemented for deringing?

Result in this cartoon looks very clear and also otherwise well to me. Look at how enormous the difference with super-xbr sharpness 150 is:
off:
https://abload.de/thumb/offb5kh6.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=offb5kh6.png)

on:
https://abload.de/thumb/onvcjgc.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=onvcjgc.png)

Looks like pure magic is going on. :eek:

[nghiabeo20]

A question from a newbie here: I've just have my laptop calibrated, but from what I've read, madvr bypass all gpu processing, just use it's own algorithm. So will madvr disable icm profile? Thanks!

[huhn]

no it doesn't bypass that by default.

windows loaded icm calibration is not the best way to calibrate.
think about creating 3d LUT from the icm using this: http://displaycal.net/

or use overlay mode if possible.

[JarrettH]

Is that worth using if I already calibrate with my Spyder2 software? I've heard of it, but it seems even more technical. Is it better? :D

[huhn]

yes the spyder and iprofiler software is not that good to say it friendly.

[leeperry]

OMG yet another new build, :thanks:

BTW, I recently got ahold of a DVB-T2 tuner that can record on USB keys so I finally get to use the black bars detection but:

1) could you please add tags for borders cropping? some TV logos only need a few lines of cropping to fully disappear and I'd like to nail this once and for all.

3) hardly worth a heart attack but why does the latter jump from 5 to 7? Eventually I got a video that would ideally need 6 ^^

4) TV broadcasters like to mess with levels and even more AR, there's no tag for the latter according to this (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1709764&postcount=2) as it would appear? I've seen many 2.35 music videos airing as 1.78 :o

Due to the new deringer I'm contemplating watching everyday TV through mVR but I can't quite justify wasting +100W to watch the news and the usual TV junk, maybe things will change with the next AMD boards and make it far more worth my while but YADIF in LAV gives combing artifacts on 1080i50@25p fast moving logos IME and I can't process 50p. My Sammy TV hardly ever combs, would need to try mVR's deinterlacer I guess.

Also, switching fps in Reclock or closing PotP takes a few secs now when it used to be instant before so I will try older builds to see when that really started and whether mVR is even the culprit.

[leeperry]

Sorry for the double post and I do realize that I'm extremely late to the party but I think a few more lines of cropping woulda been in good order?

http://thumbnails116.imagebam.com/48531/c2401b485301283.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/c2401b485301283) http://thumbnails115.imagebam.com/48531/3ec1f0485301285.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/3ec1f0485301285)

Please advise whether that'd make a sample useful to anything as many music videos on that channel end up with that white bar in the top right corner :o

[Asmodian]

Is that worth using if I already calibrate with my Spyder2 software? I've heard of it, but it seems even more technical. Is it better? :D

Especially the Spyder2 is too old for modern displays, I had to replace my Spyder3 years ago because it could not read accurate colors on the new WLED backlights that seem ubiquitous now or on anything with a wide gamut. Also as they age the filters change so the meters do simply go bad with time (heat, water, oxygen, etc.). Edit: I used the meter with Argyllcms, not their software, which as mentioned, is not very good.

A 3DLUT and a Windows calibration as done by Spyder's software is not the same thing. Think of the Windows calibration as the first step of a calibration and the 3DLUT as the full calibration done in one step.

huhn mentioned using the rendering option "enable windowed overlay" because madVR bypasses the GPU's calibration hardware completely in that mode but it loads the values from the GPU and applies then internally at its high bit depth and before dithering. This does offer better quality but it does not help if the values are bad to start with.


Please advise whether that'd make a sample useful to anything as many music videos on that channel end up with that white bar in the top right center :o

Is the "cleanup image borders by cropping" option not a good solution? It is probably meant to clean up faded or distorted edges of analogue captures but it could work well here too?

[JarrettH]

Hey thanks both. I actually sort of consumed my evening with installing displayCAL haha. I eventually created a 3D LUT with the Spyder 2 without much trouble.

p.s. My display is a CCFL LCD (NEC ea231wmi), so it's still a good pairing of technology :D

How do you think I should setup the rendering, Asmodian? I keep it at "this display is already calibrated" + full exclusive

Edit:

Realized the gamma is - by default - set to 2.4 in displayCAL madvr preset, which would explain the wash out. I removed the screenshots until I run it again.

[x7007]

Madshi , if I have Bluray 3D which I use . which is not SidebySide or Top&Buttom , it is Active 3D TV with Nvidia 3DTV software. I can't make it to show actual 3D when using 3D on AUTO in madvr with 3DTV Enabled. it says D3D11 Windowed or Fullscreen (3D) but there is nothing being visible as 3D. my TV goes to 3D mode when it detect supported 3D software or Nvidia 3DTV enabled, and Potplayer goes to 3D mode, but again nothing is visible as 3D , just plain 2D. can I fix that ? I can't watch the movie in PowerDVD because I need subtitles and the movie doesn't have subtitles and I can't add to powerdvd srt subtitles, is there other way for that too ? in PowerDVD it works properly, 3D is visible and pretty much perfect.

Windows 10
Nvidia 970
3DTV Drivers

the movie is bluray Active 3D not just MKV normal file.

[Siso]

Especially the Spyder2 is too old for modern displays, I had to replace my Spyder3 years ago because it could not read accurate colors on the new WLED backlights that seem ubiquitous now or on anything with a wide gamut. Also as they age the filters change so the meters do simply go bad with time (heat, water, oxygen, etc.). Edit: I used the meter with Argyllcms, not their software, which as mentioned, is not very good.

A 3DLUT and a Windows calibration as done by Spyder's software is not the same thing. Think of the Windows calibration as the first step of a calibration and the 3DLUT as the full calibration done in one step.

huhn mentioned using the rendering option "enable windowed overlay" because madVR bypasses the GPU's calibration hardware completely in that mode but it loads the values from the GPU and applies then internally at its high bit depth and before dithering. This does offer better quality but it does not help if the values are bad to start with.

Wasn't there a problem with out of gamut colors using a 3DLUT with windowed overlay mode?

[huhn]

Hey thanks both. I actually sort of consumed my evening with installing displayCAL haha. I eventually created a 3D LUT with the Spyder 2 without much trouble.

p.s. My display is a CCFL LCD (NEC ea231wmi), so it's still a good pairing of technology :D

How do you think I should setup the rendering, Asmodian? I keep it at "this display is already calibrated" + full exclusive

Edit:

Realized the gamma is - by default - set to 2.4 in displayCAL madvr preset, which would explain the wash out. I removed the screenshots until I run it again.

why should a gamma of 2.4 result in a washed out image?
the 3D LUT is most likely fixing black clipping.

but what so ever not an madVR issue.

[baii]

Hey thanks both. I actually sort of consumed my evening with installing displayCAL haha. I eventually created a 3D LUT with the Spyder 2 without much trouble.

p.s. My display is a CCFL LCD (NEC ea231wmi), so it's still a good pairing of technology :D

How do you think I should setup the rendering, Asmodian? I keep it at "this display is already calibrated" + full exclusive

Edit:

Realized the gamma is - by default - set to 2.4 in displayCAL madvr preset, which would explain the wash out. I removed the screenshots until I run it again.
Bt 1886 on low contrast ratio display (say 1000:1) tend to look wash out, try the pure 2.2 and use the black offset so you don't get black crush.

You can find more about all this stuff on the corresponding avs forum thread.

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk

[XMonarchY]

Bt 1886 on low contrast ratio display (say 1000:1) tend to look wash out, try the pure 2.2 and use the black offset so you don't get black crush.

You can find more about all this stuff on the corresponding avs forum thread.

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk

Pure 2.2 will also be washed out with 2.2 Power Law gamma in the same places that look washed out with BT.1886 gamma, BUT not AS washed out. If a film is using low black levels properly, BT.1886 image will look better.

IMHO, BT.1886 is the way to go on ANY display, be it extremely low-contrast (sub 1000:1) TN/IPS panel, barely acceptable contrast VA (~3000:1) panel, acceptable contrast VA (~5000:1) panel, or high contrast high quality CRT/Plasma/OLED panel.

Also, I don't think you need to select Black Offset or Compensation because ArgyllCMS and DisplayCAL have fixed the elevated blacks problems a LONG time ago.

[Magik Mark]

Can the anti halo algorithm address the halo generated by SVP?

[JarrettH]

Here are the images I removed. I use 2.2 gamma on my monitor (it's matte IPS).

3dlut (uses 2.4 gamma)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7093/26911447350_680b71f285_b.jpg
Spyder 6500k 2.2
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7559/26580109044_e2baf86070_b.jpg

3dlut (uses 2.4 gamma)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7323/26580143444_1a79d5881b_b.jpg
Spyder 6500k 2.2
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7700/26580144264_94a3e54bd5_b.jpg

3dlut (uses 2.4 gamma)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7201/27090755732_b55f513f4e_b.jpg
Spyder 6500k 2.2
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7712/27152971946_9407642cca_b.jpg

[XTrojan]

6500k or 2.2 is Normal, if you notice on dark areas in 2.4 there's major black crushes, the benefit is clearness but white/dark areas tend to get issues. The result is a "tunnel-vision" effect, where the surroundings often end up irrelevant or very dark, making you focus mostly on the stuff in the middle. This can be good for horrors, dramas, tarantino movies and similar but for action Marvel/Michael Bay etc this often makes it unwatchable.

I would stay at 2.2, it tends to give the best balance, dynamic contrast modes on TVs have the same black crush effect, albeit not as strong as pure 2.4, since modern TVs can detect black areas and adapt, but it still isn't recommended to go above 2.2.

[aufkrawall]

Compared NNEDI3 64 + SR3 vs. deringing + super-xbr 150 + SR1 (both quadrupling).

NNEDI3:
https://abload.de/thumb/oldevqy5.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=oldevqy5.png)


super-xbr:
https://abload.de/thumb/new5loxa.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=new5loxa.png)


NNEDI3:
https://abload.de/thumb/oldk3a44.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=oldk3a44.png)

super-xbr:
https://abload.de/thumb/newklzl8.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=newklzl8.png)

Funny thing is that super-xbr with higher sharpness is less aliased than lower sharpness. This offers quite some possibilities, since with deringing filter, halo boosting isn't a real problem anymore with super-xbr and its line bloating can already be significantly lowered by just SuperRes 1, which doesn't reintroduce lots of ringing unlike higher SR settings when combined with deringing filter.
So, it seems to me that this super-xbr settings combination is now a real alternative to NNEDI3 while it requires just a fraction of computing power at the same time. I can't spot a clear winner quality wise with these examples (ok, the cartoon shows much less ringing with the deringing filter).

[e-t172]

Pure 2.2 will also be washed out with 2.2 Power Law gamma in the same places that look washed out with BT.1886 gamma, BUT not AS washed out. If a film is using low black levels properly, BT.1886 image will look better.

IMHO, BT.1886 is the way to go on ANY display, be it extremely low-contrast (sub 1000:1) TN/IPS panel, barely acceptable contrast VA (~3000:1) panel, acceptable contrast VA (~5000:1) panel, or high contrast high quality CRT/Plasma/OLED panel.

This. The whole point of BT.1886 is to compensate for low contrast displays, which is why the shape of the curve changes depending on black/white levels which are fed as parameters to the formula.

[huhn]

the cartoon sxbr image has a ton of ringing are you sure the anti ringing was used on it?

i have to say both cartoon image are not looking good.

[Uoppi]

Is the "cleanup image borders by cropping" option not a good solution? It is probably meant to clean up faded or distorted edges of analogue captures but it could work well here too?

About that cleanup feature: I was pleasantly surprised to realize that madVR is apparently analyzing the image to decide if cleaning is required or not - you're saying that's what it's meant to be doing, right?

I definitely don't want any unnecessary cropping with high quality sources whereas with some DVD rips (Monty Python's Flying Circus being a prime example) I need to set the cropping to at least 3 or more for all borders.

Initially I kind of assumed all content would get brutally cropped, whether needed or not. But I have to say I really like the versatility of the zoom functions and that's saying a lot because previously I was biased against "any kind of zooming or cropping" to preserve the original aspect ratio.

[Uoppi]

Is the "cleanup image borders by cropping" option not a good solution? It is probably meant to clean up faded or distorted edges of analogue captures but it could work well here too?

About that cleanup feature: I was pleasantly surprised to realize that madVR is apparently analyzing the image to decide if cleaning is required or not - you're saying that's what it's meant to be doing, right?

I definitely don't want any unnecessary cropping with high quality sources whereas with some DVD rips (Monty Python's Flying Circus being a prime example) I need to set the cropping to at least 3 or more for all borders.

Initially I kind of assumed all content would get brutally cropped, whether needed or not. But I have to say I really like the versatility of the zoom functions in general and that's saying a lot because previously I was biased against "any kind of zooming or cropping" in order preserve all image content..

[aufkrawall]

the cartoon sxbr image has a ton of ringing are you sure the anti ringing was used on it?

Yes, compare it to super-xbr 150 without deringing:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1768426#post1768426
The deringing filter shouldn't be any more aggressive, you can see it already killing some detail in the lighttower picture. I think its strength is just right, judging from what I've seen so far.


i have to say both cartoon image are not looking good.
The source is not good and quadrupling makes ugly artifacts much more visible, no matter how good the upscaling is.

Edit: Btw: New Crimson 16.5.3 driver seems to fix performance regression of 16.5.2.

[fedpul]

Yes, compare it to super-xbr 150 without deringing:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1768426#post1768426
The deringing filter shouldn't be any more aggressive, you can see it already killing some detail in the lighttower picture. I think its strength is just right, judging from what I've seen so far.


The source is not good and quadrupling makes ugly artifacts much more visible, no matter how good the upscaling is.

Hi aufkrawall, I have been making some comparisons and I think SXBR 150 is too sharp and make a lot of artifacts (ringing especially) visible (even when de-ringing enabled, without it, it just rings a lot). Obviusly it depends on the source quality. I think SXBR AB 25 is one of the most balanced doubling upscalers when it comes to: resources, image quality and artifacts masking. Just my humble opinion.

[chros]

This. The whole point of BT.1886 is to compensate for low contrast displays, which is why the shape of the curve changes depending on black/white levels which are fed as parameters to the formula.

Pure 2.2 will also be washed out with 2.2 Power Law gamma in the same places that look washed out with BT.1886 gamma, BUT not AS washed out. If a film is using low black levels properly, BT.1886 image will look better.

IMHO, BT.1886 is the way to go on ANY display, be it extremely low-contrast (sub 1000:1) TN/IPS panel, barely acceptable contrast VA (~3000:1) panel, acceptable contrast VA (~5000:1) panel, or high contrast high quality CRT/Plasma/OLED panel.

Also, I don't think you need to select Black Offset or Compensation because ArgyllCMS and DisplayCAL have fixed the elevated blacks problems a LONG time ago.

This is simply not true.
It depends at least 3 criteria: viewing condition, panel type (black level of the display as e-t172 said), user preference.
You don't want to watch movie Alien with BT.1886 during the night on a IPS panel with 0.14cdm black.
More info here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-139.html#post40108362
But there's also a dedicated thread for this here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172783

[Asmodian]

Does it matter what curve you use on this imagined display? You do not want to watch Alien on a display with 0.14 cd/m^2 black.

Your choice is black crush or washed out, using 2.4 or 2.2 gamma doesn't change much. At night, in the dark, 2.4 looks better to me, 2.2 is for a well lit room. BT.1886 avoids black crush while pure power 2.2 or 2.4 will crush black some with that high of a black level.

We should be in the calibration thread, not madVR's. :mad:

[JarrettH]

I tried Gamma 2.2 and this it looks a lot better to me (shadows aren't as lifted/elevated looking). And yep, you have to take so much into account for your user experience (I view at night, matte IPS, what target brightness I want, my display is also not natively capable of 2.4 gamma - closer to 2.2).

These aren't exact frames, but I want to follow-up to show the difference (of course this is display dependent, etc and may be useless haha)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7274/26614843833_27b67068bf_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7173/27151173951_3fdc52330d_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7723/26613450944_a03f508319_b.jpg

[CarlosCaco]

Ok. So how can I reproduce this problem? I'll need a step-by-step guide. Meaning: I need your "settings.bin" file (or "HKCU\Software\madshi\madVR\Settings", if there's no "settings.bin" on your PC). Then I need to know the exact source and target resolutions we're talking about. And a debug log. All this from the situation where image doubling activates but upscaling refinement does not.





Madshi, as you asked, here my settings.bin and my debug log from the supersampling situation where image doubling activates but upscaling refinement does not


http://www.filedropper.com/madvrdebugsettings

movie resolution : 1280x720

display resolution: 1366x768



thanks for your atention and patience

[aufkrawall]

Hi aufkrawall, I have been making some comparisons and I think SXBR 150 is too sharp and make a lot of artifacts (ringing especially) visible (even when de-ringing enabled, without it, it just rings a lot). Obviusly it depends on the source quality.

Are you sure that it's ringing and not some other kind of artifacts?
High super-xbr sharpness seems to tend more to the "knot" artifacts which are one of super-xbr's peculiarities (like e.g. the weird line doubling that can happen with NNEDI3).
Anti-ringing filter for super-xbr has received some good progress in the last months.


I think SXBR AB 25 is one of the most balanced doubling upscalers when it comes to: resources, image quality and artifacts masking. Just my humble opinion.
I agree that's a very sane scaler. However, the sharpness value seems lower than super-xbr 150 and so there is more aliasing, especially with cartoons.

My goal was to achieve a similar sharpness as with NNEDI3 + SR 3 or 4 while still being able to use the deringing filter. The problem is that high SR srength can lead to very ugly artifacts in combination with deringing filter, so I tried out super-xbr 150 instead of high SR strength and it looks very good to my eyes.
Deringing and SR 1 give some very nice anti-bloating effect with super-xbr 150.

[XTrojan]

This 2.4 vs 2.2 battle is overall stupid.

Rec709 movies are supposed to be seen with 2.2 gamma.

If you want to raise the gamma anyway, enable "dynamic contrast" on your TV, just be sure it's originally calibrated to 2.2.

Unless ur TV is very old or a monitor calibrating to 2.4 has no point as modern TVs with dynamic contrast can handle "dynamic" higher gamma better than pure 2.4 gamma (atleast 2013+ models), basically less black/white crush.

[Uoppi]

What are the practical differences between the tags levels, blacklevel and brightness in correcting washed out blacks in an encode that otherwise has flawless PQ? Mediainfo reports "limited" but the black level is definitely off. Which tag would be the preferred option to fix this?

[sheppaul]

After cropping black bars, it seems possible to place txt/image subtitles over/under video area with potplayer's built-in subtitle renderer. I only enabled two options in madVR settings: "automatically detect hard coded black bars", "crop black bars" and let potplayer control the position of subtitle. It works well but there is one thing cannot be resolved within potplayer. The conflicting option of potplayer is to reserve two lines for bottom margin for subtitles. Could you look into the issue?

http://i.imgur.com/YUSs0DG.jpg

[omarank]

I may do that in some future version, but it's low priority for now.
That will be great. Thanks for considering this!

* tweaked deringing algorithm some more
I am happy using the deringing option, which I have globally enabled for all content. The good thing is it doesn’t do any harm when the content doesn’t have any obvious ringing.

[James Freeman]

This 2.4 vs 2.2 battle is overall stupid.
Rec709 movies are supposed to be seen with 2.2 gamma.


True.
All major studios calibrate and grade to 2.2, as noted by many professional colorists on the AVSForum board.

[XMonarchY]

True.
All major studios calibrate and grade to 2.2, as noted by many professional colorists on the AVSForum board.

That would only make sense if consumer TV's were used to grade those films instead of ultra high-end non-consumer TV's with very deep black levels.

A film on high-end studio TV's mastered to PL 2.2 gamma will NOT look the same as the same film on perfectly calibrated consumer TV's with the same PL 2.2 gamma. Hence, the whole concept of "Calibration is all about making sure you see the film as it was mastered" goes out-the-window right there. That is why BT.1886 gamma exists - to accommodate consumer TV's.

Since we established consumer's (most consumers I guess) CANNOT see films as they were mastered due to terrible black levels no matter what gamma is used, it makes more sense to use mathematically and visually accurate BT.1886 gamma that takes black levels into consideration.

You also make a false assumption that film mastering is perfect, but it is not. There are plenty of badly mastered films that looked washed out with both BT.1886 and PL 2.2 gamma's, but BT.1886 does look slightly more washed out.

Watch Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight rises. With BT.1886 gamma NOTHING is washed out in those films, as well as plenty of others, like Interstellar, Mad Max, Blu-Ray version of the old X-Files, and other high-grade high quality movies. Then watch the new recently released The Thing (the prequel). Even if you use PL 2.5 gamma to watch that film, it will look washed out because that film uses high grays for something that should've been black.

[kalston]

I am very interested in the gamma discussion myself but this might be something to talk about in a different thread. I've been reading about it here and on AVS and I'm frankly still very confused about the whole 709/1886, 2.2/2.4 thing. There doesn't seem to be any general consensus whatsoever.

[James Freeman]

BT.1886 is terrible (IMO).
No two displays will result in the same curve.

Black Compensated Gamma curve makes sure that from a certain point all displays are equal.
Each display has different black level, but above say 10 nit (variable by user) they are all equal, that's why compensated gamma cure is much closer to reference than BT.1886.
How much should the black compensated gamma curve compress the shadows?
This is a personal taste but the result always looks much more contrasty than 1886 without crushing/clipping any black steps at the bottom.

The sRGB curve is a Black Compensated 2.2 Gamma curve, and IMO it looks better than BT.1886 on a 1000:1 typical LCD display.
If you want to discuss this let's start a new thread and I will gladly show you with pictures and HCFR plots my claims.

[madshi]

Could we maybe move the calibration discussion to a different thread, guys? It's not really madVR specific, so it doesn't really belong here.