madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Hypernova]

Can you describe it in a bit more detail? E.g. when it happens, is it always only one line that is missing? Or does the "missing" problem last for a while, maybe a couple of seconds or so? Also, is it in the middle of playback that this problem occurs? Or directly after a seek? Do subtitles flicker before/during/after this problem, or is the "look" stable, just something is missing? Anything else worth reporting about this problem? If you can reproduce it at least sometimes, can you double check this with Haali?

I'll try my best to answer every one you mentioned..

1. It seems to be specific lines, not specific time period.
2. I did not see this problem yet from continuously watching a video without any seeking. However, it does not garunteed to happen when seeked either. More like, after a lot of seeking/skipping, the probability for missing lines increased.
3. I do not notice any instability before any missing line. Everything looks fine. It just, suddenly, one line doesn't show up. Seeking back does not help; if that line is missed once, it will always be missing until reopen.
4. I'll try to watch a couple TV episode with Haali and get back.

One additional information: video I watched is mostly fansubs, so it's mostly ASS/SSA with embedded font.

Yes, I've noticed that myself. I don't know yet if I can fix it with the current render chain. I plan to modify the rendering chain in a couple of weeks, fixing problems like "subtitles draw over the madVR GUI" etc. After that this problem should definitely be fixed. Maybe I can fix it before then, not sure right now.

Understood :)

[thuan]

I know another "me too" without more descriptive method to reproduce won't help much but let just say I have experienced the same issue as Hypernova.

[madshi]

2. I did not see this problem yet from continuously watching a video without any seeking. However, it does not garunteed to happen when seeked either. More like, after a lot of seeking/skipping, the probability for missing lines increased.
Does the problem occur a short time after the seek, or can it also be minutes later?

Seeking back does not help; if that line is missed once, it will always be missing until reopen.
That's quite interesting. Have you tried seeking back more than just 2-3 seconds before the missing line? Try seeking back about 60 seconds before the missing line. Does it still not come back? What if you abort movie playback and start fresh, does the missing line show then? One more question: If you manage to reproduce the problem with the same video clip, is it always the same line that is missing or is it a different one every time?

Let me explain how subtitle rendering works inside: Basically madVR has not much to do with subtitle rendering at all. For every video frame that madVR draws, madVR simply contacts MPC-HC and asks it to draw the subtitles onto the video frame. The rest is up to MPC-HC. However, it's madVR's duty to tell MPC-HC which exact timecode the frame has. And the exact timecode is surprisingly difficult to find out for madVR. So whenever there are bugs, they could be caused either by madVR screwing up the timecode calculation, or by bugs in MPC-HC. Other than sending a wrong timecode, madVR can't do much wrong. Timecodes can be especially flaky right after a seek. However, timecodes should go back to stable a couple of seconds after a seek. So while it might be expected to see some problems directly after a seek, the problems should in theory go away once the seek is done and over with for good.

If the same line is missing even if you seek back a long time before the missing line then I can only imagine that the problem is in MPC-HC somehow. In that case the problem should also occur with Haali, I think. Maybe even with VMR/EVR.

[Hypernova]

Does the problem occur a short time after the seek, or can it also be minutes later?


That's quite interesting. Have you tried seeking back more than just 2-3 seconds before the missing line? Try seeking back about 60 seconds before the missing line. Does it still not come back? What if you abort movie playback and start fresh, does the missing line show then? One more question: If you manage to reproduce the problem with the same video clip, is it always the same line that is missing or is it a different one every time?

Let me explain how subtitle rendering works inside: Basically madVR has not much to do with subtitle rendering at all. For every video frame that madVR draws, madVR simply contacts MPC-HC and asks it to draw the subtitles onto the video frame. The rest is up to MPC-HC. However, it's madVR's duty to tell MPC-HC which exact timecode the frame has. And the exact timecode is surprisingly difficult to find out for madVR. So whenever there are bugs, they could be caused either by madVR screwing up the timecode calculation, or by bugs in MPC-HC. Other than sending a wrong timecode, madVR can't do much wrong. Timecodes can be especially flaky right after a seek. However, timecodes should go back to stable a couple of seconds after a seek. So while it might be expected to see some problems directly after a seek, the problems should in theory go away once the seek is done and over with for good.

If the same line is missing even if you seek back a long time before the missing line then I can only imagine that the problem is in MPC-HC somehow. In that case the problem should also occur with Haali, I think. Maybe even with VMR/EVR.

Short time, though it can happen a minute later also. For second sets of question, it would take some time to gather data. Please bear with me :)

[VincAlastor]

In the situation when the stuttering occurs: Does it continue to stutter forever (until you do something to stop it)? Is madVR in exclusive mode at that moment? Which OS are you on? Do you let madVR disable Aero in fullscreen mode? If the problem occurs in windowed mode, what does the madVR OSD say about Aero composition rate (if Aero is enabled)?

yes, it continue to stutter forever. yes, madVR is in exclusive mode this time or after 3 sec., but my tv need more seconds to adjust, for that reason i can not see the difference between windowed and exclusive mode at the beginning of the playing video. OS: win7 x64. No, aero stay enabled. in windowed mode madVR says nothing about aero (i mean, there is no warning or something else).

If i disable automatic exclusive mode the video is playing without stuttering. i don't know/find the short keys list from madVR to switch manual between windowed/exclusive modi. is the quality better in exclusive mode? or can i disable automatic exclusive mode forever? - i'm sorry i doesn't find a howto, help file/doc and a short key list of madVR, because of that i have to ask.

[dansrfe]

I have like zero problems with madVR :D

Smooooooooooooooooooooooooothnesssssssssssssss and stability :)

[ryrynz]

I have like zero problems with madVR :D

Smooooooooooooooooooooooooothnesssssssssssssss and stability :)

Doom9 needs Like buttons.

[endpoint122]

Media Player Classic - Home Cinema x64
and setup madVR v0.47but it still not show
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2131/85457385.png

any idea? i use windows 7 64

[fairchild]

Media Player Classic - Home Cinema x64
and setup madVR v0.47but it still not show

any idea? i use windows 7 64

You have to use the x86 version (32-bit version) for it to work with MadVR.

[endpoint122]

ok worked with x86 thx
but 86x slow than x64?

[fairchild]

ok worked with x86 thx
but 86x slow than x64?

Not really. There are lots and lots of 32-bit programs still being made all the time that work great on 64-bit os.

[SamuriHL]

You'll find that the best codecs are still 32 bit anyway. I fought this battle before, but, in the end I gave up on trying to get an all 64 bit solution to work.

[dansrfe]

Doom9 needs Like buttons.

I agree with this statement :)

[Dogway]

I have 2 issues with madVR, one the video looks bluish and pale, the second is settings icon doesnt show on my taskbar, so can't access to change behaviour. Sorry if this has been answered before. ffdshow icon says "video mixing renderer"

[namaiki]

I have 2 issues with madVR, one the video looks bluish and pale, the second is settings icon doesnt show on my taskbar, so can't access to change behaviour. Sorry if this has been answered before. ffdshow icon says "video mixing renderer"

Assuming that you are using MPC-HC, what appears in the menu: Play-> Filters.

Also, make sure not to move the madVR folder (which extracted from madVR.zip) after you installed it.

[Dogway]

jeeeez, I thought the folder was only for installing purposes... thank you. : /

[Hypernova]

Some more information, madshi. This is without exclusive mode.

Encounter another missing line incident today. I tried to seek further as you suggested, but this time I couldn't do it because after watching the missing line part a couple time, as I was trying to seek further each time, I notice that the OSD lose all "3D" effects and became flat-looking. When I try to move pointer the bottom to reach MPC-HC control, it was broken; only "play" button show up. The rest is blank with no seekbar (whick I turned on). So I tried to closed mpc-hc using mouse gesture (strokeit). Basically sending alt+F4 keys combination. MPC-HC show a blank messagebox with a weird-looking OK button (non-cleartype-font). After another couple of tries I manage to close MPC-HC.

I've watched some video with Haali today. Hadn't notice any missing line yet.

I'll keep trying to see if missing line consistantly bring this beheviour.

Edit: May I suggest adding "No x64 version" on the first post?

[thuan]

@Hypernova: now that you mentioned that, I remember when I had the same issue as you I also tried to seek furthur away and so I experienced the same issue as you've just described. I don't remember seeing the message box though but everything before that is the same. Alas I have only experienced this issue once (before you first posted about it here) and I haven't been trying to reproduced it (basically I was only seeking around) because of stuffs so I can only echo what you said. Still, at least there're 2 people with the same issue so there must be a problem somewhere.

[madshi]

yes, it continue to stutter forever. yes, madVR is in exclusive mode this time or after 3 sec., but my tv need more seconds to adjust, for that reason i can not see the difference between windowed and exclusive mode at the beginning of the playing video. OS: win7 x64. No, aero stay enabled. in windowed mode madVR says nothing about aero (i mean, there is no warning or something else).

If i disable automatic exclusive mode the video is playing without stuttering. i don't know/find the short keys list from madVR to switch manual between windowed/exclusive modi. is the quality better in exclusive mode? or can i disable automatic exclusive mode forever? - i'm sorry i doesn't find a howto, help file/doc and a short key list of madVR, because of that i have to ask.
In exclusive mode there's a guarantee that you have no tearing. In windowed mode you may (but should not) experience tearing. Anyway, the exclusive mode is not fully finished yet. The problem you have with stuttering might be fixed in a future madVR build.

I have like zero problems with madVR :D

Smooooooooooooooooooooooooothnesssssssssssssss and stability :)
:)

but 86x slow than x64?
No, x86 is not any slower than x64, at least not when talking about MPC-HC, madVR etc.

Some more information, madshi. This is without exclusive mode.

Encounter another missing line incident today. I tried to seek further as you suggested, but this time I couldn't do it because after watching the missing line part a couple time, as I was trying to seek further each time, I notice that the OSD lose all "3D" effects and became flat-looking. When I try to move pointer the bottom to reach MPC-HC control, it was broken; only "play" button show up. The rest is blank with no seekbar (whick I turned on). So I tried to closed mpc-hc using mouse gesture (strokeit). Basically sending alt+F4 keys combination. MPC-HC show a blank messagebox with a weird-looking OK button (non-cleartype-font). After another couple of tries I manage to close MPC-HC.

I've watched some video with Haali today. Hadn't notice any missing line yet.

I'll keep trying to see if missing line consistantly bring this beheviour.
@Hypernova: now that you mentioned that, I remember when I had the same issue as you I also tried to seek furthur away and so I experienced the same issue as you've just described. I don't remember seeing the message box though but everything before that is the same. Alas I have only experienced this issue once (before you first posted about it here) and I haven't been trying to reproduced it (basically I was only seeking around) because of stuffs so I can only echo what you said. Still, at least there're 2 people with the same issue so there must be a problem somewhere.
I do believe that there is some kind of problem. It'll be just hard to fix. But if you keep the information and test results flowing, maybe we will get it fixed sooner or later. If it's not a bug in MPC-HC.

[Dogway]

Is it possible to enable Avisynth postprocessing in ffdshow while using madVR?
edit: looks like something wrong on my part...

[madshi]

Yes, many people are using Avisynth/ffdshow with madVR.

[sneaker_ger]

I can't really get it to work with AviSynth, I get some kind of green screen:
http://www.abload.de/thumb/madvr_greenfrxt.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=madvr_greenfrxt.jpg)

It's just an h.264 mkv with ffvideosource(). Other renderers are fine.

Any idea?
Win 7 x64, Radeon HD 5850

[Dogway]

I had a kinda outdated ffdshow for the new MPC-HC, which was required to use with version 0.47 of madVR, so now it works! and I am an up-to-date guy lol Thanks for the renderer.

[sneaker_ger]

There is a problem with ASS subtitles in FSE mode:
Each time you activate or deactivate the seek bar (by moving the cursor up and down) the subtitles seek a bit backwards in time.

I have set MPC-HC to not buffer any subtitles, but you can also see it misbehaving when activating a buffer.

[bjd]

Just to let everyone know after a system re-install, I have managed to identifty what was causing choppy video playback and massive delayed/dropped frames after about 45 minutes of playback.

It turned out to be .Net Framework 4 casing the issue presumably with the Nvidia driver. I now just have .Net 3.5 SP1 on and everything is fine.

[Plutotype]

Just to let everyone know after a system re-install, I have managed to identifty what was causing choppy video playback and massive delayed/dropped frames after about 45 minutes of playback.

It turned out to be .Net Framework 4 casing the issue presumably with the Nvidia driver. I now just have .Net 3.5 SP1 on and everything is fine.

Interesting, there are many users with updated .NET Framework and Nvidia cards...can you explain how has the problem evolved at your setup ( also presumably )?:)
Thanks

[Razoola]

If I remember correct the .net framework need time to copile some stuff after install. This is normally done while the pc is idleing. Maybe this is whats happening after 45 minutes. I seem to remember there was a way to force it to compile what it needs to rather than waiting for an idle state.

Not sure if this only applies to earlier versions though.

[bjd]

can you explain how has the problem evolved at your setup

Not sure what you want to know. Something was causing the Nvidia card to fall over after about 45 minutes, similar to the kind of issues you read on Gamer forums where the FPS will suddenly drop in the middle of a game. Only a reboot would fix it. So i did a fresh install and was able to pinpoint the issue. Removing .net framework 4 fixed it to me on XP.

Not sure if this only applies to earlier versions though.
3.5SP1 seems fine.

[sneaker_ger]

I was testing madVR on my laptop (Nvidia 9200M GS) but experienced occasional stutter every now and then, it looked like the typical performance-too-low,-trying-to-catch-up-stutter.
This was on 1080p24, everything already set to Bilinear. I wasn't sure if madVR was too much so I tested a 1080p60 file that indeed stutters like crazy (even with everything set to nearest neighbor and all boxes in "trade quality for speed" ticked). I know it's a low end GPU, but was still surprised to see that even that was too much. Is there a bottleneck that could be worked around or is the GPU really simply too slow? Has this something to do with the low upload speeds seen by your test program? (you got the results a few days ago by PM)

I'm basically looking for smooth and tearing free output - I know I have to compromise in terms of quality with this system. Any suggestions for a different renderer are also welcome.

[namaiki]

sneaker_ger, how much video ram does that card have? Also, make sure you have the latest drivers and check GPU/mem usage with GPU-z when playing a file with madVR.
If the card has 256MB or less, you will definitely have to disable CoreAVC CUDA if you are using that.

[sneaker_ger]

It has 512 MB dedicated memory (it's supposed to be able to utilize additional 768 MB system RAM).
GPU load is really high for 60p and jumping around crazy between 10% and 75%, with a lot of dropped frames.
It stays between 25% and 35% for 24p. If I activate bicubic chroma upsamling it goes to 80% for 24p, but stays stable.
So madVR really takes this much power? Makes you wonder how a laptop is able to run games.

[namaiki]

My 9600M GT can't upscale 1280x720x60p to 1920x1080 in real time. with default settings. It seems to manage about 37fps (or was it 47?).
For the above, were you testing with Bilinear?

How much video RAM did GPU-z report as being used?

[sneaker_ger]

I didn't take the resolutions into account, the stuttering happened on a 1080p display, but I'm currently testing on the built-in screen with 1366x768. It uses about 100MB. Is upscaling to 1080p considerably more demanding? Is playing back 1080p material on the 1080p display less demanding than playing back 720p on 1080p? (Can't rest right now, only with the internal display)

[sneaker_ger]

Ok, I also watched the CPU-load now and saw that it goes up to almost 100% on the 60p clip with ffdshow. I hadn't noticed this since it looked fluid on my short test with EVR. lavcuvid+evr is fluid.

/edit: gpu loads were incorrect

[namaiki]

Is playing back 1080p material on the 1080p display less demanding than playing back 720p on 1080p?
I would say yes.
However, if using Bilinear for all scaling, my Intel 4500MHD GPU doesn't have lag as such.

What about video engine load in GPU-z when using lavcuvid?

[sneaker_ger]

Seems that I'm basically unable to do anything about it, because:
1.) madVR + lavcuvid = gpu load too high
2.) madVR + ffdshow = cpu load too high

Thx for your help. At least I know that there shouldn't really be any bottleneck when playing 24p now, looking at the loads.

[sneaker_ger]

What about video engine load in GPU-z when using lavcuvid?

Up to 90%.

/edit:
On the 24p video the gpu load is only around 50% but I get a lot of dropped frames.

[Plutotype]

Hi all,
Maybe offtopic, but I found out, that decoders without deinterlacing option ON provide following effects by interlaced MPEG-2 SD playback:
FFDshow 3776(libavcodec )+madVR 0.47
http://img339.imageshack.us/f/mpeg2sdffdshowlibavcode.png/

MPC-HC internal video decoder ( with auto deinterlacing ON)+madVR 0.47
http://img853.imageshack.us/f/mpeg2sdmpchcvideodecode.png/

FFDshow 3776 with deinterlacing ON(yadif)+madVR 0.47
http://img228.imageshack.us/f/mpeg2sdffdshowlibavcode.png/

Microsoft DTV-DVD video decoder+madVR 0.47
http://img864.imageshack.us/f/mpeg2sdmicrosoftdtvdvdv.png/

Which deinterlacer+resizer do you recommend to use for MPEG-2 SD videos? I havent noticed this with MPEG-2 HD content, maybe some of you can explain why too. If the deinterlacing option is check ON in ffdshow, does this apply only to interlaced video streams? Can I leave it ON when watching HD videos?

Thanks
Pluto

[namaiki]

On the 24p video the gpu load is only around 50% but I get a lot of dropped frames.

Which resizers are being used and what resolution video and screen?

[sneaker_ger]

bilinear for all three options + all trade quality for speed ticked
1920*1080p24
1366x768
in 1 minute 6 dropped and 22 delayed frames
(the 60p sample would drop over a 1000 frames in the same time)

This is still using lavcuvid - the author says himself that performance improvement is still on his todo list and might come soon. It seems they don't work well together - or rather not well enough on low end systems.

[namaiki]

I haven't been able to test with with lavcuvid as my nVidia GPU only has 256MB VRAM (it works, but immense lag with madVR at higher resolutions, GPU-z reports GPU memory as maxed out - same for DXVA for some 1080p stuff) and the other is Intel.

[nevcairiel]

If GPU memory is your issue, the performance enhancements won't help you much. You just need a minimum amount of memory for fluid playback when combining GPU Decoding with madVR.

[noee]

@Plutotype: Have you tried Dscaler?

[Thunderbolt8]

coreavc 2.5 now supports dxva decoding for ati, is there anything beneficial using it in combination with madvr? or is this not recommended?

[nevcairiel]

DXVA does not work with madVR.

[SamuriHL]

Yea, it doesn't seem to offer any benefits. As a software decoder, though, it's not bad. I've been testing it against Cyberlink and ArcSoft. The quality is right up there as far as I can see (thanks, madVR :D) and the CPU utilization is lower than either Cyberlink (highest) and ArcSoft (right in the middle). Not that we're talking a huge difference here. All 3 are within 5% of each other.

[Plutotype]

@Plutotype: Have you tried Dscaler?

Yes, but currently I can not change anything in the properties page ( settings ) of dcaler - there is a bug in the filter as stated here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1482762#post1482762

EDIT: I managed to check the settings ( with the NXTOGGLE.bat thing ), the result with every deinterlace setting ( auto, weave. bob ) was like this:
http://img692.imageshack.us/f/mpeg2sddscalermadvr047.png/

So the ffdshow yadif option looks best to me.

Pluto

[Plutotype]

Hi all,

today I tried Alte Haas Grotesk bold subtitle font in MPC-HC. On my FullHD LCDs it gave me nice results. Give it a try if you like:
http://img.dafont.com/dl/?f=alte_haas_grotesk

Installation on win7: unzip - right click on the ttf files - install. Restart needed to make it visible in Windows.

Pluto

[Puncakes]

Many thanks for adding subtitle support, you have freed me from directvobsub. I'd like to get rid of ffdshow as well, but Deband has its grip on me. Will there perhaps be a stronger dither available in the future?

[Hypernova]

It's still random, but I think I have a better way to reproduce the missing line+blank control I described.

1. Open a video file.
2. Use skip forward repeatedly. Make sure it does go across files ie. goes through a couple files.
3. By a third file or so, randomly seeking around. I personally use mouse wheel which set to "Jump Forward/Backward (medium)" repeatedly.
4. Watch the video for a bit.
5. Go back to 3. Repete.

After awhile it should happen. If not using exclusive mode, missing line always come with the blank control+msg box. I havn't tried exclusive mode for awhile but I think it should give you the black msg box also.

I've also manage to seek back ~1min as madshi suggest and the result is the missing line persisted.

Also, I want to add that when this happen, I can't right click and the control is blanked, but the video keep playing just fine (apart from the sub randomly missing). At least for around a minute anyway. I always try to close it before it goes on any longer.