madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[huhn]

majority=! all.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/mu7600
and never forget that more expensive models are sold in way lower quantities.

about 240 HZ on a VA panel... they have problems to get below 16 ms repsonse time or even below 20 ms in bad cases and they are far away from 4 ms...

[brazen1]

huhn? Why are you presenting me a review about some TV or a response time "problem" about 240Hz that doesn't affect my movie watching experience? I thought we were about to discuss 3:2 pulldowns, why matching refresh rates is not a good idea, and the benefits of using 'smooth motion' before other adjustments would be considered?

[huhn]

this TV can't do 24p like most other lower price 2017.
and this TV can't match 24p refreshrates so this is a perfect example of a TV where SM is closer to cinema than refreshrate matching.

this page test this.

and you shouldn't believe every number put on a TV.

[brazen1]

The refresh rate of that TV is 60Hz as advertised and you get (or don't get) what you pay for. I understand your point but by a show of hands, how many here are using a 60Hz display with madVR? To say "majority=! all.", then I am in the wrong forum apparently. My bad.

I've seen your response too. "Many TV's just work better with PC if they can do 60hz. Like mine. ". "if they can do 60Hz like yours" sounds like a benefit vs 120Hz. I simply disagree and will leave it at that.

I appear to have opened a can of worms. My intention was to help the person from a different perspective and provide my reasoning. That persons TV is a 120Hz refresh rate model fwiw. I don't know why all of the backlash but I'll leave it to you guys to sort him out and just go back to lurking.

[nussman]

You are asking why people use 60hz for 24p sources.
If your display support 24p without any disadvantages (i.e. RGB 4:4:4, 3:2 pulldown etc.) there is no need to use 60hz.
Others can use SM. So whats your point?

[ryrynz]

Content is smoother for many people using 60hz with smooth motion. I don't like the detail loss so I'll accept some panning "judder" for Anime and the likes to retain resolution.

[Asmodian]

You cannot send more than 60 Hz to your TV. Right now there are no TVs that support 120Hz input at their native resolution, at least that I know of. Certainly not the lg55LF6300. From Consumer Reports: "Though it claims a "TruMotion 120" refresh rate, it's a 60Hz set and performs like one, with only fair motion blur reduction." You would need to input 24Hz. Native 120Hz input should be soon! :D

I use smooth motion for 24/1.001 fps content on my LG OLED55C7P. I do have a tuned custom refresh rate for 24p that doesn't drop any frames within >6 hours but the TV switching to another refresh rate bothers me more than smooth motion does (I don't notice smooth motion v.s. a matched refresh rate). For the majority of users smooth motion is a great place to start and end; you get high quality video without judder and you don't have to fiddle with timings or have the display change its refresh rate every time you open or close a video. I wouldn't call smooth motion a last resort and its performance and memory impact is very minor if you use ordered dithering (which I think looks better on my TV than either ED dithering option anyway :)). Smooth motion is even better on a 120Hz display, I used it on my 120Hz monitor so I could use 120.000Hz instead of trying to tune a custom 119.880Hz mode without drops or repeats.

[YxP]

I appear to have opened a can of worms.

Heh, take it easy. I for example lose 4:4:4 if I try to use 24hz input and it doesn't look any better than 60hz with SM. Your question just was so broad that I thought a quick comment would do without opening any cans :)

[huhn]

The refresh rate of that TV is 60Hz as advertised and you get (or don't get) what you pay for. I understand your point but by a show of hands, how many here are using a 60Hz display with madVR? To say "majority=! all.", then I am in the wrong forum apparently. My bad.
it's not advertised as 60 HZ. they measured 60. BTW the 65JS8500 was measured at 120 hz.

I've seen your response too. "Many TV's just work better with PC if they can do 60hz. Like mine. ". "if they can do 60Hz like yours" sounds like a benefit vs 120Hz. I simply disagree and will leave it at that.
my screen has a native 120 HZ that doesn't mean it can do that properly...
and yeah it is advertised at 800/960 hz.
I appear to have opened a can of worms. My intention was to help the person from a different perspective and provide my reasoning. That persons TV is a 120Hz refresh rate model fwiw. I don't know why all of the backlash but I'll leave it to you guys to sort him out and just go back to lurking.
so what other explanation do you want?

[mclingo]

question, and this feels like a silly one, does it take a lot more processing to upscale a 720p DVDscr movie running at 29,70 hz than it would a 1080p bluray rip at 23,976 - I ask as my usual settings are struggling to play it smoothly, its glitching rather than dropping/repeating frames, its playing it at the correct mode, just think my RX550 is worse than I thought.

With no processing the 720p DVD scr only plays smooth with lanczos for image and choma, I dont have much sub 1080p material though.

(ignore the skip/repeated frames in the screen shot, i'd just skipped ahead and back in the movie)

[huhn]

depends on your settings. so yes maybe or maybe it will take less.
don't add n image using the forum if you want someone else to see this any time soon.

[maiden]

maiden, are you taking the screenshot while paused? We need to see the stats during playback.

QB
yes I was i will do another

[maiden]

yes I was i will do another

new pic playing through remote desktop
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a7y2rs.png

[Asmodian]

Remote desktop is not your friend for stable video playback. That said your stats look perfect, no obvious issues. You might try enabling "use Direct3D 11 for presentation".

Also you aren't using f.lux or something similar? Any GPU monitoring software? Try with them off if you are.

[maiden]

Hi and thanks.
use Direct3D 11 for presentation". (will this improve judder)

Not using f.lux on HTPC or any gpu monitoring as long as it is not auto applied.

[mclingo]

ok, something odd going on her for me, my GPU suddenly cant handel NGU sharp, its maxing it out at 90% and i'm getting intermittent black screens, no idea what going on here, my cpu is fine, only running about 10%, this is after a reboot and a reinstalled of MADVR, EVR renderer is fine, just Madvr.

[mclingo]

be interested to know anyone elses AMD GPU stats running madvr

my scaling settings: everything else is default in MADVR apart from I have no trade performance options ticked.

chroma upscale - lanczos
downscale - lanzos
image upscale - NGU sharp medium

GPU= 90%

If I drop downscale to lanczos gpu runs at 45%

I dont really want to max my GPU out like this so I'll have to stay away from NGU, problem is I dont actually know if this has always been like this as a second reboot fixed the black screen and everyting is playing normal now, does anything one 90% is too high for NGU sharp medium on an RX 550?

[psyside]

Well i tried everything, and there is basically 0, not 5% just 0 difference in IQ with quite high settings in madVR MPHC vs VMR 9 Renderless HQ

Here are the screenshots for anyone interested or in doubt

1
https://thumb.ibb.co/mAu996/MVR.png (https://ibb.co/mAu996)


2
https://thumb.ibb.co/h2D2U6/reg.png (https://ibb.co/h2D2U6)

[ryrynz]

Sorry but that's just not true at all. There are plenty of differences depending on what's selected and the content at play.

[austinminton]

and your point being? we should stop using madvr based on your 2 screenshots? I dont understand the point of such posts.

[psyside]

Sorry but that's just not true at all. There are plenty of differences depending on what's selected and the content at play.

I know, i don't deny that madVR works, just in my scenario it does not make any difference, OR the KM player DOES use the madVR somehow at default instead of the regular rendered (impossible since it perform much better)

i'm out of ideas, ill try new settings with a help of a forum user :)

[psyside]

and your point being? we should stop using madvr based on your 2 screenshots? I dont understand the point of such posts.

I got alot more screenshots, from different videos, same results, either i mess up something, or it DOES NOT work as well when you use it for 4k playback/videos on 1080p monitor.

[Asmodian]

I believe you were using Bicubic75 for downscaling? That would explain it. Other high quality renders might use something very similar to madVR's Bicubic75 for downscaling but nothing else uses anything as good as SSIM or Jinc. :)

Edit: I should add that madVR's greatest strength is SD at 1080p or 720/1080 at 4K. SSIM is very impressive but other than that it is hard to be obviously better when downscaling, downscaling looks pretty good even with the old fast methods like bicubic or even bilinear.

[nsnhd]

I believe you were using Bicubic75 for downscaling? That would explain it. Other high quality renders might use something very similar to madVR's Bicubic75 for downscaling but nothing else uses anything as good as SSIM or Jinc. :)

Edit: I should add that madVR's greatest strength is SD at 1080p or 720/1080 at 4K. SSIM is very impressive but other than that it is hard to be obviously better when downscaling, downscaling looks pretty good even with the old fast methods like bicubic or even bilinear.
What's about DXVA downscaling, is that good or bad in comparison with Jinc/Bicubic/Bilinear..., my iGPU can only afford DXVA downscaling of 4K :)

[Asmodian]

DXVA is usually similar to Bicubic75 or perhaps Lanczos 3. It is dependent on the GPU hardware and its drivers. Jinc and SSIM are significantly better than any DXVA scaling.

[tobindac]

Q: I noticed that sometimes madVR reported "dropped/repeated frames per time" but now I don't see that feature on the HUD. On what does it depend on?

[tobindac]

Q: I noticed that sometimes madVR reported "dropped/repeated frames per time" but now I don't see that feature on the HUD. On what does it depend on?
Hrm I seem to have triggered it when I changed to 75Hz. Does it not support odd frequences?

update: it's unlikely to be that though since I had seen the feature before on other ones.

[mclingo]

Hi, are there any tricks to searching on this forum, its no surprise that stuff comes up over and over again as you just cant search for it. Here is an example. If you want to search for 3D issues, "3D" is too short, "3D MVC" is unrecognized or too short, "3DMVC" only brings back 3 results. Same problem with FSE, 3D FSE etc.

[austinminton]

Finally moved to win10 fall update with nvidia 390.65 (gtx 1080). Everything works well, HDR switches automatically, 3D works properly (only on fse though). Have a weird minor problem, my mouse pointer disappears when I am watching 4K+HDR on fse. I dont want to disable fse as 3D definitely needs fse on my setup. Not sure if its something to do with madvr or in win10.

I have tested this problem on both my htpc and gaming pc. Both are on win10 1709 (fully updated), nvidia 390.65 (gtx 1080). MPC-HC(x64) + madvr (0.92.10).

I dont have mouse pointer trails enabled.

[Manni]

Finally moved to win10 fall update with nvidia 390.65 (gtx 1080). Everything works well, HDR switches automatically, 3D works properly (only on fse though). Have a weird minor problem, my mouse pointer disappears when I am watching 4K+HDR on fse. I dont want to disable fse as 3D definitely needs fse on my setup. Not sure if its something to do with madvr or in win10.

I have tested this problem on both my htpc and gaming pc. Both are on win10 1709 (fully updated), nvidia 390.65 (gtx 1080). MPC-HC(x64) + madvr (0.92.10).

I dont have mouse pointer trails enabled.

You can use profiles with MadVR and only have FSE on with 3D. That's what I do.

[Clammerz]

Isn't 'smooth motion' a last resort setting and a huge memory hog?

To summarise some of the responses you may/have receive(d):

Some users don't like the delay when mode switching between different refresh rates
Some users cannot achieve (or want to put in the effort to achieve) perfect refresh rate matching
A lot of displays have "quirks" when using 23/24p refreshrates (downsampled chroma, cannot disable TV processing, internal judder in TV processing pipeline)

Regarding the latter, you'll also find a lot of users are willing to accept the quirks of the TV for temporal resolution/display BFI/etc.

Hi, are there any tricks to searching on this forum
Try Google:
inurl:"https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228" "3D"


Trying to get my movies to stop being jerky.
new pic playing through remote desktop
You'll need to get a screenshot without RDP, and it may be useful to get a general idea if there's a trend in what the numbers are showing (e.g. presentation glitch number rises, or XYZ queue drops every Y often over a period of time where you see the issue occurring multiple times).

does anything one 90% is too high for NGU sharp medium on an RX 550?
There have been reports of people getting frame drops when pushing their GPUs to 90+% usage. One thing to keep in mind that since madVR uses multiple components of a GPU, the core GPU utilisation may not be a true indicator of what components are at their max utilisation. Testing and checking frame rendering times and frame drops is the only way to know for sure if you are over the max capabilities for your card.

Well i tried everything, and there is basically 0, not 5% just 0 difference in IQ
At first glance there's a couple of differences that stand out to me, but I'm not really one to pixel peep. If you can't see a difference then there's nothing stopping you from using VMR9. No one is forcing you to use madVR, but at the same time, you likely won't find someone to hold your hand and tell you exactly what you should set.
You've seen a few suggestions of what may improve and what people prefer but it's up to you to try to find out what looks best to you, since only you have your eyes.

[austinminton]

You can use profiles with MadVR and only have FSE on with 3D. That's what I do.

Thanks for the suggestion. That worked for me. Guess its still a bug in fse, but we are all moving away from it in any case.

On a side note, I just realized "fullscreen" as a boolean value in profile rules does not work even though its listed as such on the post on profile rules.

[psyside]

At first glance there's a couple of differences that stand out to me, but I'm not really one to pixel peep. If you can't see a difference then there's nothing stopping you from using VMR9. No one is forcing you to use madVR, but at the same time, you likely won't find someone to hold your hand and tell you exactly what you should set.
You've seen a few suggestions of what may improve and what people prefer but it's up to you to try to find out what looks best to you, since only you have your eyes.


Hi, i must first say that im sorry, since members here where very helpful, i'm not here to bash madVR or anything, i'm just trying, to figure out whats wrong in my case. I personally think the program i use to COMPARE the settings, is somehow overriding, and using madVR same as MPHC, since the pictures look identical to me, and few of my friends i asked, i never told them anything, i just ask them what they think about the pics.

With the help of Asmodian i managed to get madVR run much much better, but the issue is i still cannot see a difference, i zoomed 500-600% and used frame by frame method to get to exact same point of the video, no difference.

Usually you CAN very easy spot madVR difference, in videos i saw on youtube, and on tons of screenshots, the difference is huge, but im my case i see nothing even i use screenshots vs videos method, and we both know screeshots method is quite easier to spot.

What could be the cause? i have no idea really.

[nsnhd]

What could be the cause? i have no idea really.

Have you tried other players ?
Personally, I prefer PotPlayer since it gives me no dropped frames while MPC-HC/BE does with the same madVR settings. Sometime you can't find explanations, just keep trying :)

[psyside]

Have you tried other players ?
Personally, I prefer PotPlayer since it gives me no dropped frames while MPC-HC/BE does with the same madVR settings. Sometime you can't find explanations, just keep trying :)

MPHC works fine, i just cant find a good player with different renderer to use it in order to take screenshot from to compare it with madVR enabled MPHC.

Edit, does this looks normal?

https://image.prntscr.com/image/qyxEhtwfRiStnDvevpO-_g.png

deinterlacing and limited range?

https://image.prntscr.com/image/jV84lhjdSC27D8HSpzCoCA.png

[Asmodian]

No, your render queue is empty, it should be 7-8 / 8 or maybe 6-8 / 8. In a similar fashion the present queue should be at least 2-4 / 4. The rendering time looks OK and even if it was paused the render queue should be full (present queue would be 1-1 / 4).

Are you using DXVA2 native decoding in LAV filters? This is known to provide poor quality on Nvidia GPUs, use DXVA2 copy-back instead. Still you might not notice, the issue is only a slight blurring of the chroma planes.

Your source may be soft enough that there aren't any visible differences, even with SSIM compared to Bicubic. SSIM is good at preserving single pixel scale detail and fine texture but if you don't have any in the source you cannot preserve anything.

Don't use DXVA2 native! Especially on Nvidia GPUs, but you don't want to use native decoding at all. Use DXVA2 (copy-back) instead.

The OSD doesn't show a decoding speed issue, the decoder queue would be empty if that was the issue, and the (DXVA2) indicates hardware decoding is active.

When using native you cannot pick the hardware device to use (it has to be the same device the display is plugged into) and you are not playing anything right now, which is why the Active Decoder is inactive. Look at that same screen while playing something.

[varekai]

Don't use DXVA2 native! Especially on Nvidia GPUs, but you don't want to use native decoding at all. Use DXVA2 (copy-back) instead.

Short question:

Nvidia GTX 960 GPU
My settings
LAV Filters
Hardware Acceleration
Hardware Decoder to use --> NVIDIA CUVID <--

Should I switch to --> DXVA2 (copy-back) <--

[Asmodian]

Yes, absolutely. That or D3D11 with the GPU selected:
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/LAV%20Video%20DX11%20cb_zpsvzi4edjd.png

[Siso]

Yes, absolutely. That or D3D11 with the GPU selected:

Is the device selection important for dxva2 copyback, or is it only for d3d11?

[varekai]

Yes, absolutely. That or D3D11 with the GPU selected:
Thanks for your input, appreciate it!

Hardware Acceleration
Hardware Decoder to use --> D3D11 <-- (it's not in there)

DXVA2 (copy-back) (OK!)
Hardware Device to use: Nvidia Geforce GTX 960 (OK!)

Also noticed you are using LAV Video Decoder 0.70.2.80-git
Should I upgrade LAV Filters?

[nevcairiel]

Is the device selection important for dxva2 copyback, or is it only for d3d11?

You can use it to use a secondary GPU with DXVA2, but its not absolutely required.

With D3D11 using "Auto" mode uses D3D11 Native mode if available, selecting a specific GPU always forces Copy-Back.

[Siso]

You can use it to use a secondary GPU with DXVA2, but its not absolutely required.

With D3D11 using "Auto" mode uses D3D11 Native mode if available, selecting a specific GPU always forces Copy-Back.

So "automatic" works for win 7?

[Asmodian]

Also noticed you are using LAV Video Decoder 0.70.2.80-git
Should I upgrade LAV Filters?

If you do (https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases) the D3D11 option will appear. :D

[varekai]

If you do (https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases) the D3D11 option will appear. :D
I looked in there and can only find the 0.70.2 which is what I have installed.

Also noticed this:
Active Decoder: <inactive>
Active Hardware Accelerator to use: <none>

I got 3 displays 2 monitors 1 TV so
Hardware Device to use: Automatic
would be fine?

[Jesco]

You might want to look here for the nightly builds:

https://files.1f0.de/lavf/nightly/

[Asmodian]

Ah, maybe you need a nightly build (https://files.1f0.de/lavf/nightly/)? I upgraded to 0.70.2.83-git.

I don't think madVR cares if LAV uses DXVA2 copy-back or D3D11 cb, they both work very well. The big improvement with D3D11 is during native decoding, but you should only use that if you are on a battery. :)

Also noticed this:
Active Decoder: <inactive>
Active Hardware Accelerator to use: <none>

This is because you aren't currently playing something, those show was is being actively used. LAV will fall back to software if the video isn't compatible with hardware decoding.

I got 3 displays 2 monitors 1 TV so
Hardware Device to use: Automatic
would be fine?

If you use D3D11 than, no, you need to set it to the GPU to get copy-back.

[varekai]

You might want to look here for the nightly builds:
Thanks for the link!
So installed LAVFilters-0.70.2-83 and found out that D3D11 is not supported on my Win7... bummer...:\

[Jesco]

Sorry for this (probably noob) question. I have an AMD HD7970, running W10 OS.

Current LAV settings:

Hardware Decoder to use: DXVA2 (copy-back)
Hardware Device to use: AMD Radeon R9 200 series

Will I benefit any by switching to a nightly LAV version and use D3D11 as hardware decoder instead of DXVA2 (copy-back)? Will it take some load of my cpu?

[cork_OS]

I'm using CUVID instead of DXVA2cb due to Adaptive HW Deinterlacing.

[nevcairiel]

So "automatic" works for win 7?

D3D11 decoding is not supported on Windows 7. It requires Windows 8+.