madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[huhn]

in terms of GPUs? general processing power and at best tested for madVR.

for madVR scaler quality and calibration. spending more processing power does not mean you will gain more image quality.

with your new card you pretty much gained the option to use good tone mapping settings for 60 Hz sources.

[LordX2]

with your new card you pretty much gained the option to use good tone mapping settings for 60 Hz sources.

What tone mapping settings are 'good'? Right now I only have highlight recovery enabled (set to high).

[huhn]

well no one knows. there are very big disagreements if you have trouble setting them your self ask some that actually uses tone mapping for there settings. you will get a lot of different answers.

[ashlar42]

Considering we're seeing more and more Envy exclusive features, I would really appreciate madshi stating clearly how he sees the future for madVR PC. And no, "you can guess it yourself" it's not an answer that works for me, not for the caring and kind person that I've always seen madshi to be.

I appreciate he has a company to run, obligations, everything. But a clear statement is really needed at this point. At least IMHO.

I would be willing to pay a yearly fee for updates to madVR PC (and I loath software as a service but I understand that continued development requires resources).

Edit: I'm fully aware I'm not entitled to anything. Don't take this message this way. Just the way I feel.

[SamuriHL]

There's no need to guess. For at least the very near term, which is likely measured in years, the focus for madshi is going to be on improving Envy and building out an exclusive customer base. They are not alone in the market they're playing in, and given the high cost of entry they are focused right now on consumers who are quite frankly not in the HTPC space. The sort of "gentlemen's agreement" as it were that madshi has given to the madvr community is that where it makes sense in improving the Envy lineup, madvr will continue to get updates in beta form. At the moment this is in the tone mapping space as it is used to improve tone mapping on Envy. But when he's focused on Envy specific features such as the newly released non-linear stretch, madvr will be sidelined. That's just the reality of the business model. This is unlikely to change any time soon. While you can expect to see new betas when they expire (hopefully), I wouldn't hold out hope for much to change in each release except where it helps to improve Envy.

[LordX2]

While you can expect to see new betas when they expire (hopefully), I wouldn't hold out hope for much to change in each release except where it helps to improve Envy.

I have an old beta 113 - and it has never given me any issue in terms of 'expiring'. When did betas start to expire?

[SamuriHL]

114 lol

[LordX2]

If not exact settings - how about a movie or scene that is good to use as a test scene? Something I should look for in particular in the scene etc etc?

[SamuriHL]

That's a complex topic. It depends on your goal. For testing hdr there are a myriad of scenes that can stress test your settings. A lot of us use the spears and munsil uhd as it's pretty comprehensive with a lot of good scenes. Some people use horribly mastered discs to see if madvr can clean them up in tone mapping. The Meg is notorious as is mad max fury road. The real trick when playing with hdr tone mapping is to use scenes you are extremely familiar with. High nit scenes will test tone mapping in extreme situations. The reason we line the sm uhd is it has the scenes mastered in different nit levels so you can compare high nit versions again lower nit versions that require less tone mapping.

None of this is science. It's more finding what looks good to you. And tweaking the hell out of it til you're satisfied.

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[SamuriHL]

P.s. I see you've also posted on avs forum. That thread isn't the right place for asking those types of questions. This thread is good for that and there's another thread on avs for technical questions like that. The thread you posted in is about testing the betas. It's a long thread but if you want to learn how to test madvr that's a good place to start reading.

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[ashlar42]

There's no need to guess. For at least the very near term, which is likely measured in yearsNot saying you are wrong but "very near term" and "measured in years" doesn't seem to go along when speaking about software development time, come on. :D

(this is mainly a joke, let it be... I still would like madshi to speak out officially about this and that was the only point I was trying to raise)

[LordX2]

P.s. I see you've also posted on avs forum. That thread isn't the right place for asking those types of questions. This thread is good for that and there's another thread on avs for technical questions like that. The thread you posted in is about testing the betas. It's a long thread but if you want to learn how to test madvr that's a good place to start reading.

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I just got the Spears and Munsil disk - I like how they include a 4K SDR version of the exact same shot. What a nice way to see the colors in SDR, and then be able to compare the tone map.

I noticed people talking about the 'horses' - I see that shot in the beginning with all the snow - what a demanding DTM shot.

I guess I have some playing to do!

[SamuriHL]

Not saying you are wrong but "very near term" and "measured in years" doesn't seem to go along when speaking about software development time, come on. :D

(this is mainly a joke, let it be... I still would like madshi to speak out officially about this and that was the only point I was trying to raise)

We're talking about MADSHI development time. Think of it like dog years. LMAO :D (Come on, that was funny!)

[SamuriHL]

I just got the Spears and Munsil disk - I like how they include a 4K SDR version of the exact same shot. What a nice way to see the colors in SDR, and then be able to compare the tone map.

I noticed people talking about the 'horses' - I see that shot in the beginning with all the snow - what a demanding DTM shot.

I guess I have some playing to do!

That particular scene is one that has caused a lot of changes in the madvr tone mapping over the course of the past few years in beta. The snow is not purely white, as I'm sure you see in the SDR version. As you look at it with increasingly higher nits, you may notice the detail starts to get lost a bit. There's another scene with a crocodile on rocks. The rocks lose detail, as well. The settings can be altered to bring a lot of that detail back. The advice you got in the avs thread is good. Start with finding some settings that match, or come close to matching, your equipment and tweak from there. Many people have posted their settings in that thread if you look for them.

[LordX2]

That particular scene is one that has caused a lot of changes in the madvr tone mapping over the course of the past few years in beta. The snow is not purely white, as I'm sure you see in the SDR version. As you look at it with increasingly higher nits, you may notice the detail starts to get lost a bit. There's another scene with a crocodile on rocks. The rocks lose detail, as well. The settings can be altered to bring a lot of that detail back. The advice you got in the avs thread is good. Start with finding some settings that match, or come close to matching, your equipment and tweak from there. Many people have posted their settings in that thread if you look for them.

I am diving into these videos (getting prepped for my new card arrival tomorrow).

MadVR DTM is impressive even at the settings I have now. The horse scene looks good, as does the gator rock. At least to my eye.

Only issue I noticed was that the RED for the strawberries wasn't quite as red in the tone map. Whether I was at BT.709 or BT.2020 color space. Same slightly more orange red color. What does this indicate?

Also - I ran some of the test pattern videos, the one with the 5 spinning circles. I noticed what looks like 'noise' in the circles while they are spinning. I played around with dithering settings to see if that made any difference - not really. Am I just supposed to see noise here, or is that another obvious setting needed? (PS, while on the subject, what are ideal dithering settings?)

[SamuriHL]

Red is a saturation issue. That's something that's still being addressed by madvr DTM. If you use quietvoid's settings for OLED you can mostly eliminate that issue. We have a lot more breathing room than PJ owners for tone mapping.

There's been some discussion in the avs thread about noise being added by the DTM. Read back a page or two and check out that discussion and see if it applies to what you're seeing.

[LordX2]

Red is a saturation issue. That's something that's still being addressed by madvr DTM. If you use quietvoid's settings for OLED you can mostly eliminate that issue. We have a lot more breathing room than PJ owners for tone mapping.

There's been some discussion in the avs thread about noise being added by the DTM. Read back a page or two and check out that discussion and see if it applies to what you're seeing.

I am a PJ user, so stuck there. The noise they were seeing in the AVS thread seemed to be film grain - so I think a little different than my issue - the 'noise' I am seeing is IN the spinning wheels themselves, not over the entire picture.

[SEALBoy]

There's been a lot of discussion on how to use madVR to tonemap HDR to SDR.

I'm wondering if there are good ways to do the opposite? I have an HDR display and use madVR to play HDR content. I also have a lot of SDR content, which plays just fine with madVR, but can madVR be set up to tonemap it to HDR and then output it as HDR to my display? Has anyone tried this and explored what the ideal settings for it would be?

[SamuriHL]

I am a PJ user, so stuck there.

Ah, well I have no experience there so I've gone as far as I can in helping on this one. OLED makes it easier.

[SamuriHL]

but can madVR be set up to tonemap it to HDR and then output it as HDR to my display?


No.


Has anyone tried this and explored what the ideal settings for it would be?

No. Can't be done.

[ryrynz]

Sounds like an upcoming Envy feature to me.

[SamuriHL]

sigh....that's entirely possible, I suppose.

[LordX2]

Ah, well I have no experience there so I've gone as far as I can in helping on this one. OLED makes it easier.

I definitely appreciate the help and responses!

[chros]

There's been a lot of discussion on how to use madVR to tonemap HDR to SDR.

I'm wondering if there are good ways to do the opposite? I have an HDR display and use madVR to play HDR content. I also have a lot of SDR content, which plays just fine with madVR, but can madVR be set up to tonemap it to HDR and then output it as HDR to my display? Has anyone tried this and explored what the ideal settings for it would be?
I asked for it couple of months ago, but probably it won't happen.
But if you can do calibration and have an Oled (with 0 black), then try this out with SDR (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1947198#post1947198), in short:
I use Oled light 100 (275 nits) with gamma 2.73 (!) (and gamma 2.53 for bright daylight)
You get HDR like SDR with this :)

[SamuriHL]

The problem with hdr from sdr is how to grade it properly. If it could easily be done with software we'd not have such poorly graded releases out there. That's not to say it can't be done but it'd likely require those tensor cores, a new algorithm, and a frackload of training the neutral network. IOW, it does indeed sound like something the envy could end up with but very unlikely madvr.

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[quietvoid]

I mean Windows already does AutoHDR, which is pretty much what this is.

[nevcairiel]

SDR is a strict subset of HDR, you require tonemapping for HDR to SDR because HDR doesn't fit into SDR without changes. SDR however fits into HDR. So you could easily output a SDR video as "HDR", it would just look the same as before.
Presumably that won't make you happy, so what you really want is generate detail ... out of nothing? Of course you can just fake it and amplify bright regions even further to give a resemblence of a higher dynamic range .. but usually such algorithms end up looking rather fake.

[SamuriHL]

Exactly, Nev. I'm not sure I'd see the point of that. As mentioned, even when they intentionally grade HDR it sometimes looks bad. I can't imagine an algorithm that could always get it right and make it look natural. I'm not saying it's impossible. It just would require some significant resources to pull off and certainly wouldn't look awesome 100% of the time. And whether we could do it on consumer hardware is highly debatable.

[huhn]

a simple algorithm that just maps the SDR into HDR accurately isn't a bad feature which would look the same just to make the use of an HTPC easier.

give it a nit number default 100 or 120.
map the source colorspace to bt 2020 (already present).
change gamma to linear (already present)
divide linear image by (10000 divide by nit number)
convert linear to PQ (already present)

done i guess.

[LordX2]

I noticed on someone elses screen shot that their CTRL+J menu had a lot more information in it than mine does.

Is there a place to customize what shows up? Like the detailed breakdown of rendering times?

I also don't show Gamut, Luminescence, Fall etc.

[tp4tissue]

I also have a lot of SDR content, which plays just fine with madVR, but can madVR be set up to tonemap it to HDR and then output it as HDR to my display? Has anyone tried this and explored what the ideal settings for it would be?

HDR is fixed mapping, each value has an exact brightness.

SDR is allowed to float to whatever peak white is.


If you raise your peak white above 80-120nit then TECHNICALLY you've already tonemapped it to HDR.

This is the majority case, most people watch above 120nits.

NOT ME of course, because I'm not a disgusting swamp monster. But many people... :rolleyes:


On OLED SDR translates perfectly at any peak white position.

On LCD, SDR works "best" on the LOWEST acceptable brightness to preserve shadow detail, because the backlight glow eats into the dark range.

On Projector, SDR also prefers the absolute Lowest acceptable peak white due to light pollution.

[SamuriHL]

I noticed on someone elses screen shot that their CTRL+J menu had a lot more information in it than mine does.

Is there a place to customize what shows up? Like the detailed breakdown of rendering times?

I also don't show Gamut, Luminescence, Fall etc.

Add 2 empty folders to madVR install directory named ShowHdrMode and ShowRenderSteps.

[chros]

On OLED SDR translates perfectly at any peak white position.
Yes, but you also need higher gamma, so you need calibration/profiling (or maybe we can set this in madvr as well, not sure what the max value for gamma is).

[QBhd]

My C8 has a fake HDR profile and it does look like hot garbage. I guess some people may like the HDR effect it gives, but it's far from good

QB

[SamuriHL]

It's like the people that turn on Dolby Vision for everything on players that allow that sort of thing. I also think it looks terrible but some people are really into that sort of thing. Then again, I'd question why any of them would be using madvr in the first place if that's what they're into. :D

[SEALBoy]

Another thing I was wondering is if there is a good explanation on what madVR features require copy-back from DXVA2 or D3D11 hardware decoding and which ones work fine in native? When I switch from D3D11 native to D3D11 copy-back in LAV my GPU utilization jumps from ~33% to ~66% when playing 4K HDR files. I use NGU medium anti-aliasing for chroma upscaling but nothing else for 4K files. Would be nice to know that I'm not putting on copy-back for nothing except making my GPU work harder.

[SamuriHL]

Black bar detection, deinterlacing, and if you use them in certain players, BD menus.

[e-t172]

a simple algorithm that just maps the SDR into HDR accurately isn't a bad feature which would look the same just to make the use of an HTPC easier.

Actually Windows can already do that (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3darticles/high-dynamic-range). Not referring to the "Auto HDR" mode that was added in Windows 11 - just the standard "Use HDR" display option. If that mode is enabled then an HDR signal is sent to the display all the time and Windows simply converts all SDR applications from sRGB to HDR. You can even use madVR to play SDR movies in that mode and it actually measures somewhat accurately in my limited testing. The idea being that you can use SDR and HDR apps (e.g. games) side-by-side and everything looks correct without having to touch anything.

[chros]

My C8 has a fake HDR profile and it does look like hot garbage. I guess some people may like the HDR effect it gives, but it's far from good
Yes, I don't like that one (let alone it is only available in non-PC mode), it doesn't look right.
But what I linked above does, looks simply amazing!
As others said, it shouldn't be anything fancy, map the sdr diffuse white (90-95% input signal) to 203 nits, the rest is higlight. Other implemention can fool around the curves below and above that, that's it.

[huhn]

Actually Windows can already do that (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3darticles/high-dynamic-range). Not referring to the "Auto HDR" mode that was added in Windows 11 - just the standard "Use HDR" display option. If that mode is enabled then an HDR signal is sent to the display all the time and Windows simply converts all SDR applications from sRGB to HDR. You can even use madVR to play SDR movies in that mode and it actually measures somewhat accurately in my limited testing. The idea being that you can use SDR and HDR apps (e.g. games) side-by-side and everything looks correct without having to touch anything.

if you ignore the banding and well on the current dev build it'S broken completely HDR toggle can not be used at all.

it also has a brightness option(not bad) but with no number to it (very bad).

[LenniePaz]

I want to make sure my HDR colors are correct on my Epson 5050. I'm using MadVR set to tone map HDR using pixel shaders, and under calibration, I have it set to BT.2020. Should I have a checkmark in report BT.2020 to display, to get the correct color space? There's definitely a difference in colors with it checked and unchecked. I do have a Nvidia GPU.

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[huhn]

yes you should check send bt2020 but i can't tell you if it is working correctly. theory and practice...

[LordX2]

I got my new card - getting all the settings cranked is nice.

However, I am having a frame drop problem with the new Nvidia drivers. (I DID experience this with the gtx 1650 before upgrading - and backed down the driver version because of it).

I am randomly having 2 frames drop. Very noticeable. Doesn't matter what I set my present que to. Or CPU/GPU ques.

Has this issue been touched on, and if so, is there a fix, or a known good driver version?

I don't know if I can go all the way back to the 457 driver version I have on the 3060.

[LenniePaz]

yes you should check send bt2020 but i can't tell you if it is working correctly. theory and practice...I'm not seeing a difference in colors when I set display is calibrated to BT.709, and display is calibrated to BT.2020 with send BT.2020. Is that possible, or could it be so subtle, that my eyes aren't seeing it?

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[huhn]

i can't test it so let's hope someone test it. it should be a day night differance or madVR over rides it.

[SEALBoy]

Black bar detection, deinterlacing, and if you use them in certain players, BD menus.

Thank you! I use none of those so I will go back to D3D11 native decoding.

[tp4tissue]

I'm not seeing a difference in colors when I set display is calibrated to BT.709, and display is calibrated to BT.2020 with send BT.2020. Is that possible, or could it be so subtle, that my eyes aren't seeing it?

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it might be hard to see depending on what you're looking at.

You should see a slight difference in saturation or hue. <if there is a difference>

The problem is, without a color probe, you're not really sure how or what the pipeline is actually doing, so we're making assumptions. We don't really know for sure if the 5050 projector is behaving correctly or even reading the 2020 flags you're sending it.

The projector should be close to dcip3 gamut, so if set the projector's gamut to "native", you just send sdr, the safer assumption is to let madvr assume that display is calibrated for p3, and not report bt2020.

[LenniePaz]

it might be hard to see depending on what you're looking at.

You should see a slight difference in saturation or hue.

The problem is, without a color probe, you're not really sure how or what the pipeline is actually doing, so we're making assumptions. We don't really know for sure if the 5050 projector is behaving correctly or even reading the 2020 flags you're sending it.

The projector should be close to dcip3 gamut, so if set the projector's gamut to "native", you just send sdr, the safer assumption is to let madvr assume that display is calibrated for p3, and not report bt2020.I found this old post in the 5050 forum, where someone asked about the colors.

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211109/d87136fa340b7ce1566ff01a3adc3057.jpg

[huhn]

this is a completely different topic.
this is about 90 % of DCI P3 vs bt709 vs and BT 2020 vs bt709 mapped to what ever the device can do it's day night.

this is what we are talking about:
https://abload.de/img/normalaxji8.png
https://abload.de/img/bt2020hkkb6.png

a delta E of 10 or even 15?

[LordX2]

So, I have gone back as far as I can go with Driver versions from Nvidia - all of them still have the same issue. Random frame drops (almost always 2 dropped frames).

They happen very close to after I start watching something, so I have been able to use a movie as a test movie.

I have changed the cues, from present cue to CPU/GPU cue. They don't seem to make any difference.

Asmodian - you have a 3090, what did you have to do to get it working correctly?