madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[flossy_cake]

A repeat frame every 41 seconds due to playing 23.976 @ 24 is SUPER noticeable to me, very easy to spot on a double blind test. The layperson might not notice it though, but if you're into madvr you're probably not a layperson.

[flossy_cake]

Could you tell the diff between 23.976 and 24.0 in a blind test? .

^ this was meant to ask whether anyone could tell the diff between 23.976fps @ 23.976hz, vs 24.0fps @ 24.0hz

Cause I thought leeperry was using reclock to speed it up to 24.0 not to avoid a repeat frame every 41 seconds but for "real cinema experience"

The only tangible difference I could think of is a 2hr movie would have runtime of 7.2 seconds longer

[tp4tissue]

who wouldn't notice a 41 ms frame time skip...

You have to be in a fairly long medium-high speed paning shot.

If this occurs every ~40 seconds, which is most 23.976 into 24, almost guaranteed to miss the majority of these double frames or skips in real content.


If you have a panning test video, and you stare at it, and go, there's 1, there's 1 every 40 seconds, yea. it's possible to see it, but calling bullshit on people seeing it in real content.

And in the test video, it doesn't look like something broke, it just looks like a flicker, not even a stutter.

[huhn]

a 41 ms long flicker.

it's close to impossible to miss.
you just need something that move with a predictable speed even moving lips is enough.

and noticing it one time is more then enough to fix it and it will happen quite alot.

[flossy_cake]

@tp4tissue , in a 2hr movie you will have 172 of these 41ms jerks. Yes, if the camera is not moving very much you probably won't notice it, but you have 172 chances at it happening, you WILL notice it many times during every movie. I've tried watching movies like this and it just keeps grabbing my attention every now and then. It's not like I have to consciously look for it, its just an obvious defect.

[tp4tissue]

Calling double BS on both flossy and huhn XD

I can barely notice it deliberately looking for it.

Also huhn, moving lips, NO WAY, lips are quite small and the articulation distance is very narrow and fast, even without flicker, they look like they're flickering when people speak. Even with hair and head movements, if they're only moved slightly, no way you can see a dropped/repeated frame.

They don't look like jerks as flossy describe, if you see a jerk, something else is wrong in the playback chain.

/LIES :devil:

[huhn]

it is literal the same as a dropped frame from performance issue and yes you can see that the motion is instantly wrong.

it's utterly trivial.
it's like claiming people can't see a 41 ms spike in a video game 41 ms!

[flossy_cake]

Calling double BS on both flossy and huhn XD

I can barely notice it deliberately looking for it.

Also huhn, moving lips, NO WAY, lips are quite small and the articulation distance is very narrow and fast, even without flicker, they look like they're flickering when people speak. Even with hair and head movements, if they're only moved slightly, no way you can see a dropped/repeated frame.

They don't look like jerks as flossy describe, if you see a jerk, something else is wrong in the playback chain.

/LIES :devil:

Ok well enjoy your 172 stutters I'll be over here in smooth land :P

It's probably a moot point for you anyway as Vincent Teoh says the S95C can't do a perfectly smooth 24hz with 41ms between each frame. Because apparently to avoid 3:2 judder on the latest Samsungs when feeding it 1080p24 or 4k24 over HDMI, you have to turn on motion processing which causes occasional stutters where you get a 41ms stutter around certain scene change frames due to glitches in the motion processing. This is a total deal breaker for me as I spent many hours solving this exact same issue that occurs as a result of IVTCing my 30i DVDs to 24p due to cadence breaks around scenechanges which occur due to the scene splicing being done to the nearest field instead of waiting till the end of the current 3:2 cycle. My solution was to detect these duplicate frames in the final 24p output and do an 8-frame blend over it with neighbouring frames to hide the 41ms stutter (because 5 blended frames wasn't quite smooth enough for hiding the jerk in my view, and 10 frames was a bit too much of an extended blur - 8 was the sweet spot). But even this wasn't good enough because if you blend across the scene change frame, the scene change itself looks weird like a scene fade effect instead of a clean cut. My workaround was to buffer 8 frames in advance so that I could detect when I'm 8 frames before the next scene change and then blend 8 frames leading up to the scene change frame so the scene change frame is left alone as a clean transition. This is an optional feature in my avisynth filter (which can be used in realtime with MPC-HC) but it can also IVTC to 60p and not have to deal with the issue at all (but then you will have 3:2 judder of course, but it's the only way to preserve all field cadences like 1:1, 2:2, 3:2, 4:4, 5:5, 8:7 etc. all inside the same 60p container with correct frame times)

:thanks:

[huhn]

120hz is fine at least on the software version i'm at. so it actually can do it properly just need a source that can send it.
it's just stupid error they made.

madVR with nvidia card will create so many hidden drop frames with default setting you have far bigger problems.

and people instantly notice that and they didn't even have an OSD that told them.

[flossy_cake]

120hz

Are you at 120.0 or 119.88? Is this a "TV resolution" or "PC resolution" in GPU control panel? (PC resolution may not be acceptable for me as it can disable too many picture settings)

[huhn]

both.

all UHD 120 are PC listed it's not a default HDMI spec thing.

i'm not going into the picture settings.

[flossy_cake]

both.

all UHD 120 are PC listed it's not a default HDMI spec thing.

i'm not going into the picture settings.

What about game consoles outputting 120hz - do those use PC timings and lose most picture settings as well?

Is it possible to do 119.88hz with all picture settings available on the S95C? If yes, then S95C is a contender for me again. If not, then it's a dealbreaker. None of the reviews mention this. You guys are my only hope at knowing this.

[Sunspark]

No idea, but according to this review it says the display supports all forms of VRR so probably does do 119.88, but no idea on the picture settings.

You won't be using it as a monitor though, I see here it has the subpixels in a triangular configuration.

[flossy_cake]

You won't be using it as a monitor though, I see here it has the subpixels in a triangular configuration.

I will actually be using it as a monitor, just at a viewing distance of about 3.5m with Windows DPI scaling to enlarge everything to about 200-250% which I'm guessing should make it acceptable?

[mclingo]

I cant deal with any frame skips in movies at all, I am super sensitive to them, sure some of them get missed when nothing is moving on screen but one over 41 secs is unwatchable to me, this is why I've now scrapped my wireless headphones and gone back to my trusty wired HD600's which I also forgot how good they sounded with Dialogue.

I guess some people are just less sensitive to this, I still get the odd frame skip when i'm watching some movies and i've never got to the bottom of this, i've literrally spent days trying to track it down, I usually give up for a while then then try again, I lost an entire weekend last week trying to stop getting 3-4 skips while rewatching the hobbit in 3d, I went right back through some old drivers and back to the last working MADVR before we got decent tone mapping, it looked dull and awful in HDR so this was also a none starter.

There was a time when I was using windows 10 when I had a perfect system, I stupidly upgraded to win11 as I wanted android support which turned out to be a massive waste of time, I could go back but my HTPC is a gaming / movie / photo server / Plex server /, it takes make about 5 days to reimage its a massive ballache.

I think my intermiitent 4-5 skips per movie are likely win11 / crap AMD drivers so they are undefeatable at this point. (it is only MADVR though, I dont get these skips using MPC or other renderers)

[huhn]

try this: https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=2007375&postcount=3293

[mclingo]

cheers, will have a go, I spotted that the other day too but forgot about it, cheers

[Asmodian]

I will actually be using it as a monitor, just at a viewing distance of about 3.5m with Windows DPI scaling to enlarge everything to about 200-250% which I'm guessing should make it acceptable?

Make sure to turn ClearType off, subpixel rendering is bad when you don't have a normal subpixel structure (BGR or RGB in a horizontal line).

[tp4tissue]

If you turn cleartype off, it will not perform antialiasing. The edges will become harsh looking on dense text. I'm using cleartype on qdoled gen 2, looks fine.

You don't want to get the s95c unless you're sure you get the refreshed connector box with new motherboard.

[Sunspark]

It's fine to turn cleartype off and still have antialiasing.. you will just use greyscale antialiasing instead if you want to use AA at all. Greyscale is the default on most devices now for a variety of reasons.

On my regular RGB stripe display I have AA completely off in Windows, and on my SD which is Linux I use greyscale AA, however I turned AA off in the browser.

With the S95C's pixel structure, a white line is going to have the top fringe all green, and the bottom fringe is going to be purple.. because that top subpixel row is only green subpixels and the bottom is only red and blue subpixels.. but these are edge cases..

Definitely have cleartype off though.

[tp4tissue]

How do you turn text AA on, without cleartype on ? Is this a registry setting?

[Sunspark]

Easier that way, yeah.

For full pixel greyscale AA as in XP:

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop]

"FontSmoothing"="2"
"FontSmoothingType"=dword:00000001

Log out and back in.

To turn AA off entirely, both to 0. If you do this, you should be using fonts that were designed to be hinted such as the original MS core fonts.

[tp4tissue]

Thx Sspark.

[mclingo]

try this: https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=2007375&postcount=3293


That did not work for me I ended up losing a 150 in one and a half hours, However I think I may have found the root cause. I've noticed now and again that when I'm watching a movie it appears to come unresponsive Where I cannot pause or stop the movie, but what's actually happening is another process is taking the focus, It never really occurred to me that was what was happening until I did alt and tab where I saw another process, movavi video agent, No idea What was happening there but it has been doing this for ages and I suspect it's something to do with the fact that fse is no longer working properly. I don't need this running at all so I've disabled it but I do use the movavi software from time to time to edit videos.

[Emulgator]

I would stay away from movavi. If it got to be zero cost, AviUtl may be considered. Unintrusive.

[flossy_cake]

It's very peculiar to me that it would be this difficult to get a standard vsynced presentation without hitches in such a simple 2d rendering pipeline. This should be absolutely trivial to have a buffer of a few frames and in that case you wouldn't even need consistent render times cause there'd always be a frame in the buffer or prerender queue. It's not like we need low latency here.

I think Windows is to blame somehow. On my new system with Windows 10 & 3060 sometimes if I drag a file explorer window around at the desktop it sometimes hitches and drops a few frames, other times I can't reproduce it at all. I don't know if it's rendering glitch or if the explorer.exe process has timer threads that are firing and interrupting the rendering.

On a separate note with nvidia dithering I found another scenario that causes dithering dropouts on windows 10: turning the PC on without the display powered on. Sometimes I do this in the morning, I'll turn the PC on before the TV, then go and make a beverage and when I get back I will turn the TV on. Nope, can't do that with Windows 10, the display has to be on at the time the PC arrives at the desktop (i.e at the time the nvidia driver is performing its intitialisation things) otherwise it's the same as a "new monitor connected" event which is already known to cause dithering dropouts. My workaround is to add a password login screen that way when I turn the TV on I'm at the login screen, then login to desktop, then the nvidia driver does its initialisation thing. A bit annoying cause now I have to enter a password on every boot.

[Sunspark]

Maybe you should reset your BIOS settings to defaults and go from there.

Could try the driver version that the catalog pushes automatically.

You could use the rufus utility to make various windows-to-go drives and boot from them to see if a different build # of 10 works better for you.

[flossy_cake]

Maybe you should reset your BIOS settings to defaults and go from there.

lol its a brand new system, and I dont overclock anything in the BIOS, pretty much just default settings with my own CPU fan curve and some trash like SecureBoot and TPM disabled

It's not a major issue, it barely happens, and whenever it did happen it was always within the first few minutes of arriving at the desktop - I don't use fastboot so when most people arrive at the desktop they are actually arriving at a desktop that has been restored from a previously running state of probably hundreds or thousands of hours. Or they use sleep and same thing. Probably why Nvidia doesn't detect or care about their silly new colour management setting blinking the display to black for a split second on every cold boot cause nobody cold boots anymore cause they're all using fastboot or sleep.

[leeperry]

Butter-smoothness w/o Reclock is illusional at best.

[flossy_cake]

Butter-smoothness w/o Reclock is illusional at best.

Do you use TV resolution or PC resolution? Because only TV resolutions have the correct timings to match video rates.

In my experience AMD had correct TV timings out of the box, and NVidia needed a 1px vertical res nudge in CRU to make its TV timings perfect.

[Sunspark]

I don't use fastboot, but I do love the sleep function.

The hitching on window dragging in explorer, some external drives connected via USB with a FAT filesystem can sometimes choke the hell out of the process to the point that it freezes explorer. I have a drive like that but it's fine because I know under what conditions it's going to happen. I know you use external storage so it might be there.

[tp4tissue]

Butter-smoothness w/o Reclock is illusional at best.

Reclock = Placebo :scared:

[Sunspark]

Nvidia owners.. LOL. Apparently they are absolutely riddled with exploits in both Windows and Linux and you need to update them ASAP.

https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5586

[flossy_cake]

The hitching on window dragging in explorer, some external drives connected via USB with a FAT filesystem can sometimes choke the hell out of the process to the point that it freezes explorer. I have a drive like that but it's fine because I know under what conditions it's going to happen. I know you use external storage so it might be there.

Ok cool, that must be it then. I guess the software engineers at Microsoft didnt think to put disk I/O in a seperate thread to window rendering

[rod93]

Hello, problem with stuttering during video playback with the Nvidia GPU (glitches), the problem appeared suddenly regardless of the playback software, complete reinstallation of the machine and drivers with the same problem, I also tested the GPU memory without issue. The stuttering does not appear immediately but after a few moments only in full screen, it is enough to switch the video to windowed mode and it disappears, then reappears when I switch back to full screen. I specify that even leaving the default settings in madVR does not change anything, it occurs at all frequencies with Vsync activated in the Nvidia settings.

[olgafrolova]

Hello!
I have an old PC (i72600k / 16 gb).
Can you please advise what is the minimum video card from RTX 30xx-40xx needed to watch 4K HDR Blu-ray (HEVC/H.265) with a bitrate of under 80 MB?
*on my old one gtx580 3gb has severe freezes
Thanks!

[huhn]

try lower all queue you are most likely running out of memory.

even low end card can do plenty as long as you are not tone mapping.

[tp4tissue]

I owned a 580 a long time ago, definitely can play 4kuhd HDR. Runs really hot for tonemapping, but so does a 1060 of the same era.

It's probably the queues like huhn mentioned, or potentially you need a fresh windows install.

[olgafrolova]

On my gtx580 MPС player plays video but the video card quickly gets very hot and makes noise like an airplane.
Other players slow down.
I will buy a video card anyway. The most important thing is that I understand any 30-40 series will do? I'm afraid of high temperatures :)
Thank you very much!

[rod93]

Thk but it already make a fresh Windows install reduce queues to 3 and 1 but same glitches

[flossy_cake]

Thk but it already make a fresh Windows install reduce queues to 3 and 1 but same glitches

In NVCP try "prefer max performance" & vsync

[flossy_cake]

it is enough to switch the video to windowed mode and it disappears, then reappears when I switch back to full screen.

Ok then it sounds like an issue with windows compositor in full screen mode. I presume you have tried the full screen mode options in madvr, and maybe try DX9 vs DX11. Windows 10 or 11? Does the monitor/TV change to a different display mode when entering full screen mode? What does ctrl+J say? Is it a standalone NVIDIA GPU or dual GPU NVIDIA+Intel? Onboard iGPU enabled/disabled?

[huhn]

On my gtx580 MPС player plays video but the video card quickly gets very hot and makes noise like an airplane.
Other players slow down.
I will buy a video card anyway. The most important thing is that I understand any 30-40 series will do? I'm afraid of high temperatures :)
Thank you very much!

i just checked a 580 has 1.5 gb Vram that's to little for 4K output and that's mostlikely the only issue. and that card is well that card...

i have a 4060 the smallest 40 series card. and it barely doing anything with my settings.

[olgafrolova]

i just checked a 580 has 1.5 gb Vram that's to little for 4K output and that's mostlikely the only issue. and that card is well that card...

i have a 4060 the smallest 40 series card. and it barely doing anything with my settings.

great then I'll take the 4060 too, I don't use it for anything other than watching videos. Thanks! :)

[rod93]

In NVCP try "prefer max performance" & vsync

Already done that

[rod93]

Ok then it sounds like an issue with windows compositor in full screen mode. I presume you have tried the full screen mode options in madvr, and maybe try DX9 vs DX11. Windows 10 or 11? Does the monitor/TV change to a different display mode when entering full screen mode? What does ctrl+J say? Is it a standalone NVIDIA GPU or dual GPU NVIDIA+Intel? Onboard iGPU enabled/disabled?
Yes, it sounds like that. Try DX9, but the screen is flashing. I'm on Windows 11, and the monitor doesn't change to a different display mode. I also tried Windows mode in MadVR, but the problem persists. When I do Ctrl+J, everything is okay for about 10 or 15 minutes, then the stuttering starts, and only the glitches increase. It's a dual GPU. I already tried to disable the iGPU in the BIOS without success. Thanks.

[Sunspark]

Why not use the iGPU instead? If you're not using a lot of high upscaling and processing features.

[rod93]

Why not use the iGPU instead? If you're not using a lot of high upscaling and processing features.

intel xe not enough powerfull for madvr (just for vlc)

[huhn]

intel doesn't even have a working DX9 driver anymore.
there are major issues with it.

[Klaus1189]

Hello, problem with stuttering during video playback with the Nvidia GPU (glitches), the problem appeared suddenly regardless of the playback software, complete reinstallation of the machine and drivers with the same problem, I also tested the GPU memory without issue. The stuttering does not appear immediately but after a few moments only in full screen, it is enough to switch the video to windowed mode and it disappears, then reappears when I switch back to full screen. I specify that even leaving the default settings in madVR does not change anything, it occurs at all frequencies with Vsync activated in the Nvidia settings.
What driver and what GPU did you use before issue happend? Did you update it?

Thk but it already make a fresh Windows install reduce queues to 3 and 1 but same glitches
Do the glitches get counted by madVR or are these only visual.

@rod93: perhaps decrease quality settings for iGPU?
@huhn: also iGPU or only dedicated GPU?

@rod93: Could you play another file on main SSD, just to be sure?