madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[70MM]

Do you know if madshi is using NGU Sharp on both chroma and luma with his projector?
Is it better to keep both chroma and luma in the same family?

[Asmodian]

Is it better to keep both chroma and luma in the same family?

No, for chroma upscaling there is no benefit to using the same method as image upscaling.

[70MM]

What two do you think might be best to use then for a JVC X9500 projector on a large 140" diag screen?
I like a sharp image without artefacts...

With my 1080Ti card I have been using:
Chroma = AA NGU High
Luma = AA NGU Very high

[Asmodian]

Yes those are good, and what I use on my 55" OLED. I have never tested a 140" projector. :)

I would also test NGU Sharp very high for Luma, on some screens I like it a lot and on some I don't.

[70MM]

But are you saying not to have both set the same, say both at AA NGU or both at NGU sharp?

[Asmodian]

Yes, NGU AA for chroma and NGU Sharp for luma is a good sharp option.

[Dorohedoro]

What two do you think might be best to use then for a JVC X9500 projector on a large 140" diag screen?
I like a sharp image without artefacts...

With my 1080Ti card I have been using:
Chroma = AA NGU High
Luma = AA NGU Very high

I have the x5000 and I'm using ngu sharp for everything (high) and the image is breathtaking.

Also, I'm using some sharpening options (I don't remember wich ones, I will tell you if you want) and a little bit of denoise 3d (ffdshow raw), I have an 120" screen and I fail to see any artifacts and as I said, the image is breathtaking (with 1080p sources scaled to 2160p23hz).

As you can see I also like clean sharp images (like in the theater nowdays).

[70MM]

Which sharpening options do you use? What is denoise 3d (ffdshow raw)?

[Dorohedoro]

I will tell you my sharpening options tonight , I'm not in my house right now. Ffdshow is an old filter that will give you some problems (none for me so far) specially if you want to use hdr (I'm not using it yet).

Under the ffdshow options you will find some denoise filters, I really like denoise 3d because it will help you get rid of that ugly grain of some old movies (I dont don't like grain) without losing to much fine details. Until Madshi add some denoise options in madvr, ffdshow raw is a good option for me.

[Siso]

Yes, NGU AA for chroma and NGU Sharp for luma is a good sharp option.

For a PC monitor I find NGU Sharp medium a little bit too sharp, NGU standart behaves a little more natural.

[AngelGraves13]

Since we're all talking about our preferred Chroma upscaler, I'd like to throw in my pick and state why I prefer it over other scalers.

NGU Anti-alias High Chroma

Why? It's not too sharp, and also smoothes the edges of the 4:2:0 chroma, which we all know can look pretty terrible, especially at lower resolutions like 480p. I find it produces the clearest, most defined, and smooth chroma in madvr.

Don't get too stuck up on sharpness. Jinc should be regarded as the overall best upscaler and downscaler in madvr. It's also a great chroma scaler, but if you have some extra headroom, go for NGU AA High. Very High looks really nice, but it's just too demanding even for 1080 Ti.

[Magik Mark]

Can somebody point me to the right link if this has been answered. I'm having problems searching this:

1. It seems I can't get madvr to generate optimized setting for custom mode. I have played numerous videos already

2. Sometimes I get Black Screen. Hitting pause then unpause so far solves this. is there a way to prevent this?

[tony359]

it will help you get rid of that ugly grain of some old movies (I dont don't like grain)

Ouch! Grain is part of the film! You're making it looking like a TV show! Nolan would disagree with you :)

[70MM]

I dont mind the grain in older films, 35MM has grain, I dont want to change that!

[Dorohedoro]

Ouch! Grain is part of the film! You're making it looking like a TV show! Nolan would disagree with you :)

I agree with you (not with the Nolan part, his lastest movies are cristal clean in the theater), but I simply don't like a grainy image, and my projector make look grainy movies even worse, that's why I like to use denoise filters.

[ryrynz]

Don't get too stuck up on sharpness. Jinc should be regarded as the overall best upscaler and downscaler in madvr. It's also a great chroma scaler, but if you have some extra headroom, go for NGU AA High. Very High looks really nice, but it's just too demanding even for 1080 Ti.

Agreed. But high gets you 95% of the way there so it's hard to justify very high unless you got plenty to burn. On my 960 I'd rather not. I wouldn't notice it anyway..
And yes Jinc is very nice for luma, NGU AA bests it with chroma though, even the low setting IMO. Jinc loves to add nice dark haloing, NGU AA is very clean by comparison.

[SamuriHL]

Performance wise it's a pretty good option if you can't reach NGU AA medium. At that point though I might consider one of the other algos instead, I haven't done any direct comparisons between low and the others but I'm no fan of the sharper algos that's for sure, but it really does come down to your display.. I believe owners of Projectors like Madshi tend to prefer the sharper ones.

I tend to stay away from the sharper ones, as well. I'm on a Panny plasma and haven't seen any need for increased sharpness. I will say I absolutely prefer NGU AA medium. If you've got the horsepower under the hood, it's very much worth it IMO.

[Thunderbolt8]

Jinc should be regarded as the overall best upscaler and downscaler in madvr. It's also a great chroma scaler, but if you have some extra headroom, go for NGU AA High. Very High looks really nice, but it's just too demanding even for 1080 Ti.even a Geforce 1080 Ti is too slow for NGU very high chroma upsampling? just for that alone, without any additional upscaling of the image?

[kalston]

even a Geforce 1080 Ti is too slow for NGU very high chroma upsampling? just for that alone, without any additional upscaling of the image?

NGU chroma very high is no problem on a 1080 ti for the most part. But I think he just meant that it's not worth the performance cost [assuming it forces you to back down on luma settings and such] and I agree. It's expensive and I can't see the difference myself but I can usually afford it so I use it :)

[Asmodian]

even a Geforce 1080 Ti is too slow for NGU very high chroma upsampling? just for that alone, without any additional upscaling of the image?

It isn't about GPU performance at all. I have plenty of power, I could use NGU AA very high for both chroma upscaling and luma doubling when upscaling 1080p30 to 4K (note: chroma is doubled with NGU AA medium when luma doubling is set to very high). :)

Using NGU AA very high for chroma upscaling might even provide worse quality. Some users here have reported that, only for chroma upscaling, NGU AA very high actually results in worse quality than NGU AA high and during personal testing I have never found a situation where very high was visibly better.

But really, it simply isn't worth the large increase in heat/power for no or negative changes in quality.

[aufkrawall]

That scene doesn't show a huge amount of difference.
It did show a huge difference between luma-guided chroma scalers vs. traditional chroma scalers and NGU didn't exist at that time.

[JarrettH]

Anyone have screenshots to show these chroma differences? It's odd talking about it. Something like sxbr, ngu aa medium / high, ngu standard medium / high, ngu sharp medium / high

[aufkrawall]

I don't have the sample. Since bilateral shined there, I'd assume that sharper algorithms like NGU Sharp would noticeably look better as well. Can't prove/disprove that without the sample, unfortunately.

[AngelGraves13]

even a Geforce 1080 Ti is too slow for NGU very high chroma upsampling? just for that alone, without any additional upscaling of the image?

Render times are too high. It sometimes spikes into 40-70 ms, which throws off sync. If MAX stats goes over 41ms, then I don't use the setting as audio sync will be affected.

I have all trade quality for performance settings turned off.

[ryrynz]

It did show a huge difference between luma-guided chroma scalers vs. traditional chroma scalers

Anything difference looks huge if you zoom in enough. ;)

I'll have a comparison screenshot package up showing all the chroma scalers available within madVR on the particular scene up later today.

[kalston]

Render times are too high. It sometimes spikes into 40-70 ms, which throws off sync. If MAX stats goes over 41ms, then I don't use the setting as audio sync will be affected.

I have all trade quality for performance settings turned off.

The buffers should prevent any sync issue from happening though. Certainly works that way for me. I don't really pay attention to max stats. I just look at average & queues. 24fps content is pretty damn easy for a 1080 ti.

(and I don't use any trade quality for performance setting either)

[huhn]

Render times are too high. It sometimes spikes into 40-70 ms, which throws off sync. If MAX stats goes over 41ms, then I don't use the setting as audio sync will be affected.

I have all trade quality for performance settings turned off.

that's not how it works as long as no frame is dropped/repeated sync is not affected at all. max rendering times over the frame interval can be totally save.

[dvd1]

on the 576 of low quality at low bitrates. what should I use for a picture more and deeper nidita?

[huhn]

try ngu AA and debanding high low quality is a lost case anyway.

[JarrettH]

Anything difference looks huge if you zoom in enough. ;)

It's funny how the most devoted discussions are usually for the most subjective things. :D I mean luma scaling isn't discussed too much because...

[Asmodian]

Anyone have screenshots to show these chroma differences? It's odd talking about it. Something like sxbr, ngu aa medium / high, ngu standard medium / high, ngu sharp medium / high

I did an artificial comparison (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1788868#post1788868) when NGU was young. ;)

I believe this NGU became NGU Sharp, possibly after some minor tweaks.

edit: but that image host seems to have deleted everything. :devil:

[70MM]

Its a shame as none of those comparisons work.

[Siso]

Its a shame as none of those comparisons work.

Indeed :(

[ryrynz]

Here's (https://mega.nz/#!3cImRRiY!bUz9C4FeZSXIUAlZwBShMEuapEmThFrGTD6yWp1wpIk) a zip file of screenshots I took from the Samara test shot (187MB).
First frame, every chroma scaler. If AR was an option it's enabled (which is recommended) no SuperRes (I'd recommend using a sharper scaler instead.)

The "notable differences" file shows you the areas of the most pixel changes between the softest and sharpest shots, as you can see you should be looking at red areas (robes, tassel) mostly but other edges are touched also.

This video highlights IMO how bad the sharpest options are, and basically how pointless it is using high neuron NNEDI3 for chroma (something that's been stated multiple times through the thread)
Let your eyes be the judge. For your own tests here's (https://mega.nz/#!DRZzyAZY!Oq-RxDtp9K0hRbmsa8CQZXqFwy_sZDoe5JdNLjaRM4M) the video sample again for those who have missed it previously.

[Asmodian]

Its a shame as none of those comparisons work.

I re-created a collection of comparison images using 420 and 444 x264 crf 1 encodes of BrownFox.png (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n33o1t0nj9imf38/BrownFox.png)
Using an image viewer like IrfanView (http://www.irfanview.com/64bit.htm) to switch between images is the preferred way to compare these images.

All images are here:
BrownFox madVR chroma upscaling.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/file/o4gwd863t8l4213/BrownFox_madVR_chroma_upscaling.zip)
Original Videos:
BrownFox 420.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/7hmm3104sshirsp/BrownFox_420.mkv)
BrownFox 444.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/o6xa3d0vnxgucoi/BrownFox_444.mkv)
Original Image:
BrownFox.png (http://www.mediafire.com/file/n33o1t0nj9imf38/BrownFox.png)

2x 444 Ground Truth:
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/BrownFox%202x%20444_zpsocaccbju.png
2x Jinc:
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/BrownFox%202x%20420%20Jinc_zpsljbbfgey.png
2x NGU-AA high:
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/BrownFox%202x%20420%20NGU-AA%20high_zpsid8kd20q.png

More highlights for comparison (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1817934#post1817934)

The full set of images includes:

1x display ratio, pure chroma upscaling:

444 Ground Truth
Bicubic60
Jinc
super-xbr100
NNEDI3-64
NGU-AA high
NGU-Sharp high


2x display ratio (doubled using NGU-AA very high for luma and NGU-AA med for chroma, because that is what I am using now):

2x 444 (Ground Truth)
Bicubic60
Bicubic60AR
Jinc
JincAR
JincAR-SR3
Bilateral soft
Bilateral sharp
Reconstruction soft
Reconstruction sharp
Reconstruction sharpAR
super-xbr100
super-xbr100AR
NNEDI3-64
NNEDI3-256
NGU-AA low, med, high, veryhigh
NGU-Sharp low, med, high, veryhigh

[70MM]

Here's (https://mega.nz/#!3cImRRiY!bUz9C4FeZSXIUAlZwBShMEuapEmThFrGTD6yWp1wpIk) a zip file of screenshots I took from the Samara test shot (187MB).
.

Its a great job you have done with all these examples ryrynz, thank you. However when I compare just the NGU family of AA very high and Sharp very high, they both look so good to me I really cant tell the difference on my monitors which is not my greatest interest. For me its my large screen JVC X9500 thats important and maybe I need to look at your examples just on it.

I hear madshi also has a JVC and I think he uses Sharp Very high for both chroma and luma, is that correct?

However I would love your opinion again for very large screens for chroma/luma upscaling, I think it might be AA NGU for both. Ive tested both ways and to me they both look fantastic, but if you believe one way adds some artefact to red I would prefer to not use it.
Again thanks for all the great input and direction...

[ryrynz]

Yeah I'd recommend it evaluating on the screen you're watching on. Basically trying to recreate the original striking reds for 4:4:4 is impossible, I'd rather keep it natural.
Doesn't hurt to fire up a few scenes where chroma scalers play a bigger part in the picture presentation to make sure you aren't overdoing things.

I watch a lot of animation to red graphics can be rather common, sharper scalers just make these things stand out too much and it's a bit off putting.
For someone just watching normal content a sharper scaler might create a bit of extra pop to the image that you may prefer.

Going to be interesting to see how NGU turns out with some reconstruction code added to it.

[Dorohedoro]

Ok, I'm having trouble getting the custom resolutions work on my projector. I already have custom resolutions for my PC monitor and my TV without any issues (1 frame drop every 15 hours), but with my projector (JVC X5000 through a Yamaha A860) none of the optimized custom resolutions work, there are 80% compatibility with some of them and the projector fail to show an image, just a black screen without any error message.

Any suggestion? or this combo (projector+receiver) doesn't like custom resolutions? is there anything I could try to make this work? I already tried connecting the projector directly to the htpc but the result is the same, also tried a different hdmi cable.

I have a gtx 1060, win7 and the resolution I'm trying is 2160p 23hz. Right now I'm getting with the default 23hz resolution 1 frame drop every 1.09 hours, I just need only one more hour.

Thanks!

[Asmodian]

Some displays simply don't like it when you change porches. Do custom resolutions work if they only change the pixel clock?

[Dorohedoro]

Thank you Asmodian, always willing to help!

After some more attempts (a couple of days trying, what a nightmare..) I got one that worked this morning (85%), only 1 frame repeat after 6 hours, so I'm really happy right now because it was all luck, like hitting the jackpot lol. I'm going to treasure this values like gold.

Thank you so much, and to you Madshi for all your work and for taking the time to build this tool, amazing stuff!

[x7007]

LAV Filters 0.70.2-74 Nightly 64-bit D3D11 is very good in performance, but there is big motion blur that I never had before... I needed to go back to official . it's like motion blur that isn't suppose to be with every 1080p AVC or Remux videos and on OLED TV ... I didn't have this blur on my Laptop and there I used Madvr 0.91.1 and LavFilters official with same potplayer version and same settings. I tried to update madvr 0.92.2 and I still didn't have the blur. so I knew it's lavfilters at my desktop .

[x7007]

It's on pause , Why the image so blurry : X
That's 1080p MKV , and on the laptop it looks fine.

https://i.imgur.com/Et0XYXd.jpg

[hajosattila]

hi guys!

I have calibrated my Tv display for gamma bt1886. (HCFR)
How should I configure madvr? Pure power curve 2.20 or 2.40 or BT.709/601 curve?

Thanks

[ryrynz]

so I knew it's lavfilters at my desktop.

So test various versions of nightly LAV and find out which version causes it, also check your OSD on both versions to see if anything obvious is reported differently.

[Manni]

Ok, I'm having trouble getting the custom resolutions work on my projector. I already have custom resolutions for my PC monitor and my TV without any issues (1 frame drop every 15 hours), but with my projector (JVC X5000 through a Yamaha A860) none of the optimized custom resolutions work, there are 80% compatibility with some of them and the projector fail to show an image, just a black screen without any error message.

Any suggestion? or this combo (projector+receiver) doesn't like custom resolutions? is there anything I could try to make this work? I already tried connecting the projector directly to the htpc but the result is the same, also tried a different hdmi cable.

I have a gtx 1060, win7 and the resolution I'm trying is 2160p 23hz. Right now I'm getting with the default 23hz resolution 1 frame drop every 1.09 hours, I just need only one more hour.

Thanks!

Some displays simply don't like it when you change porches. Do custom resolutions work if they only change the pixel clock?

As already reported a while ago, I can't get any optimized custom resolution to work with my JVC RS500 (X7000) going through my X7200WA (doesn't work when connected directly either).

I tried all the possibilities following Madshi's suggestions, such as changing each parameter by 1 or 2, and nothing works.

The only custom res that is accepted by the JVC is the default EDID one, which gives me around 50mn without a frame drop/repeat instead of 5mn. Not perfect or optimized, but not bad!

Seems to be specific to the JVCs with a 4K input (18Gb/s HDMI 2.0a with HDCP 2.2 like X5000, X7000 and more recent), as Madshi's older JVC model with HDMI 1.4 seems to be working fine.

[huhn]

It's on pause , Why the image so blurry : X
That's 1080p MKV , and on the laptop it looks fine.

the image luma is not touched so it is simply like this.

[aufkrawall]

I'd assume he didn't compare the exact same frames, looks a lot like camera motion blur.

Thx, ryrynz. Really great comparison. NGU Sharp imho looks good here, but I agree that it might be a problem even for HQ cartoons.

[Dorohedoro]

As already reported a while ago, I can't get any optimized custom resolution to work with my JVC RS500 (X7000) going through my X7200WA (doesn't work when connected directly either).

I tried all the possibilities following Madshi's suggestions, such as changing each parameter by 1 or 2, and nothing works.

The only custom res that is accepted by the JVC is the default EDID one, which gives me around 50mn without a frame drop/repeat instead of 5mn. Not perfect or optimized, but not bad!

Seems to be specific to the JVCs with a 4K input (18Gb/s HDMI 2.0a with HDCP 2.2 like X5000, X7000 and more recent), as Madshi's older JVC model with HDMI 1.4 seems to be working fine.

I think I just had luck because I tried like a zillion custom resolutions until one of them worked (it was like a miracle...). Since your setup is similar to mine (I'm also using 4k content on a 2.0a hdmi cable through a receiver on a jvc projector) I'm going to share with you my custom resolution later, let me get home and check the numbers for you, please let us know if that custom resolution worked for you.

EDIT:

ok, there you go, I really hope for this to work on your setup too:

http://i.imgur.com/BuhauUE.jpg

[petran79]

Whenever I set a profile group, MadVR crashes if I open a video file.
I sent a bug report here:
http://frd.li/695682d5f1f1b243cef85800862eb8f8

I use Potplayer but get same problem in MPC

I copied a profile from here:
https://gist.github.com/CHEF-KOCH/f826ea34bbf3b5561d32

if (srcHeight < 720) or (fileName = "*.avi") "SD"
else if ((fileName = "*720p*") or (fileName = "*1280x720*")) or (fileName = "*.mp4") "HD"
else if ((fileName = "*1080p*") or (fileName = "*1920x1080*")) "FullHD"

On SD I set it to NNEDI256, while on the HD and FullHD videos I chose NGU variations.

[JarrettH]

I re-created a collection of comparison images using 420 and 444 x264 crf 1 encodes of BrownFox.png (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n33o1t0nj9imf38/BrownFox.png)

I don't have the extra horsepower to add NGU chroma to my upscaling profile. What I ended up doing is creating a new profile for 1080p movies (1080p monitor) to use NGU-AA medium instead of super-xbr.

Comparing your package of screenshots with xbr100, I noticed a more defined and crisper white border closer to the ground truth outline (the black border too, but I think 'on black' shows this better), less aliasing, and slightly less boosted red. :thanks: