madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[khanmein]

madVR 0.92.10 is out.

[oldpainlesskodi]

madVR 0.92.10 is out.

Yep, been putting it through it's paces. :sly:

https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR

The Doom9 site has been down, so I would expect Madshi to post here later.

K

[waldnebel]

Is chroma upscaling working on image files? I'm using madVR also as a renderer for pictures and it would be more than great if madVR is able to get the most out of the jpeg rendering area too.

[nevcairiel]

Is chroma upscaling working on image files? I'm using madVR also as a renderer for pictures and it would be more than great if madVR is able to get the most out of the jpeg rendering area too.

Any image that originally had subsampled chroma needs their chroma to be upscaled before it can be displayed on a screen, so if you run those through madVR, it would happen (although not all JPEG images have subsampled chroma)

[madshi]

madVR v0.92.10 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* algo "remove compression artifacts" can now be run as part of NGU
* reverted NGU Sharp back to gamma light -> slightly better anti-aliasing
* removed NNEDI3 (based on user feedback)
* ever so slightly improved HDR behaviour
* default value for HDR -> SDR conversion is now set to "200 nits"
* default value for "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode" is now "off"
* default value for "use d3d11 for presentation" is now "on"
* fixed: using multiple madVR instances at the same time could sometimes fail
Once again, not much time for madVR atm, so this is just a set of little changes that have piled up since the last madVR build. I'll reply to all open comments next weekend, hopefully, and maybe by then I'll also have more time for madVR, so that I can e.g. actually look into bug reports etc, but I'm not sure yet.

FYI, the new "remove compression artifacts can now be run as part of NGU" feature comes with a new option called "run as part of NGU, if possible", which allows you to turn this feature on/off. Ideally, I'd like to remove this new option and *always* run RCA as part of NGU, where possible. But I wanted to give you the chance to test both approaches to see if running both separately might be better for images quality or not. So please do test that and report back.

A few details about how RCA/NGU fusion works:
1) Both RCA and NGU can run on just the luma channel or just the chroma channels or both. madVR automatically runs a combined algo if your settings allow it. It's possible that only luma "RCA + NGU" will be fused, or only chroma, or both, depending on your settings.
2) Currently fused RCA+NGU is only supported for NGU Sharp, but not for NGU AA, NGU Standard or NGU Soft.
3) If you have a 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 source and you activate "NGU Sharp" for chroma upscaling, and if you also activate RCA + "process chroma channels, too", then the chroma RCA will run as part of the chroma NGU Sharp upscaling. But if you select any other chroma upscaler, there's no chance for a fused NGU Sharp + RCA, so in that case RCA will still be performed separately for the chroma channels, followed by the chroma upscaler you've selected.
4) If you activate "NGU Sharp" for Image Upscaling/Doubling, then RCA for luma will run as part of NGU Sharp. But if you select a different Image Upscaling algo, or if image upscaling isn't performed at all, then RCA will be run separately.
5) If you select RCA "medium" quality, NGU Sharp quality is automatically upgraded to at least "high" quality. If you select RCA "high" quality, NGU Sharp is automatically upgraded to "very high" quality. It should still be faster overall than separate RCA + NGU Sharp Low/Medium processing.

The "default" changes listed in the changelog aim at providing a better HDR experience out of the box, especially with Windows 10.

[ryrynz]

Was hoping to see the 04-11 change to AS make it in to this version, will it be in the next one?
As you said, RCA medium is basically free, thanks! Will have to check out it's impact on good quality 720 sources.
I guess the option to unselect this will be removed in a later version? Unless I guess if the upgrade to NGU high from medium plus RCA costs more performance.

[Backflash]

madVR v0.92.10 released
[code]
* reverted NGU Sharp back to gamma light -> slightly better anti-aliasing


Fusing - can't tell the difference, I always run NGU Sharp so on 702x404 source it looks exactly the same to me.
But I think linear light looks better for NGU Sharp, I wouldn't run Sharp if I cared about AA.

[mclingo]

Hi, MADSHI, thanks again for you time on this project, any chance you can answer the AMD card 3D question, if stopping using FSE is a solution to some problems is there another way you can implement 3D for AMD cards. I know you have a script which turns 3D on and off for NVIDIA cards but the AMD package has not such on / off toggle baked in unless its deep in the registry.

What i'm also finding is that FSE is a lot more stable if MADVR doesnt have to switch between 1080p and 2160p in that if i drop my PC desktop into 1080p mode from 2160p before I start a 3D movie it starts and stops fine, if I leave it in 2160p it often totally hangs my PC on stop, wonder if there is a workaround you could implement for this?

[jkauff]

Small feature request: it would be nice to have keyboard shortcuts for the strength of the two new image processing algorithms. I find myself adjusting the strength pretty often to suit whatever movie I'm playing, especially with SD sources.

[cork_OS]

Small feature request: it would be nice to have keyboard shortcuts for the strength of the two new image processing algorithms. I find myself adjusting the strength pretty often to suit whatever movie I'm playing, especially with SD sources.
https://i.imgur.com/7DQkXTy.png

[Manni]

Small feature request: it would be nice to have keyboard shortcuts for the strength of the two new image processing algorithms. I find myself adjusting the strength pretty often to suit whatever movie I'm playing, especially with SD sources.

+1, that would be very nice.

[ABDO]

it is realy RCA free, how could be :D, thank you madshi for this stunning work.

[ryrynz]

+1, that would be very nice.

Read the post above yours.

[Anima123]

Madshi, the combination of RCA and NGU may save GPU compare with use them separately, however there’re circumstances only NGU needed to save GPU power. For example I can playback 720p ->1080p with NGU low using an Intel 630.

Hope you can consider keeping capability of using NGU alone in madVR.

[jkauff]

Read the post above yours.
Those aren't the new algorithms.

[huhn]

what is deblocking and denoising then ?

[Neo-XP]

madVR v0.92.10 released

Very nice, I do not think I need to use any other enhancement now with this NGU in gamma light.
RCA/NGU fusion seems very difficult to understand with the "run as part of NGU, if possible" option, but I will try to test it and report.

So back to the basic configuration that work for any case [GTX 970] :

artifact removal : reduce banding artifacts medium & high
chroma upscaling : NGU Anti-Alias (high)
luma doubling : NGU Sharp (high), supersampling always, quadrupling disabled
chroma doubling : Bicubic60 AR
upscaling algo : Jinc AR
downscaling algo : Bicubic150 AR [relaxed]
upscaling refinement : add grain 3
dithering : Ordered + colored noise + change dither
trade quality for performance : all disabled

Fusing - can't tell the difference, I always run NGU Sharp so on 702x404 source it looks exactly the same to me.
But I think linear light looks better for NGU Sharp, I wouldn't run Sharp if I cared about AA.

I do not think you will see any difference with a 404p source, but NGU in gamma light appears generally very slightly sharper than NGU in gamma-linear light and the edges thinner.
Sometimes NGU gamma-linear light is sharper on some edges, but also "wrong" most of the time and/or unnatural on those edges, so I used "soften edges" before to try to get rid of them and to smoothen edges with aliasing too.
Not needed anymore with NGU in gamma light.

@madshi :thanks:

[ryrynz]

Those aren't the new algorithms.

what is deblocking and denoising then ?

Yes they are.

Reduce Compression Artifacts = Deblocking
Reduce Random Noise = Denoising.

Questioning two people that gave you the same answer when you don't even know yourself, without even taking a minute to test that answer and blindly assume your right based on an assumption? :o

[leeperry]

Thanks for the new build!

BTW, any chance for more "add grain" steps please? IME it boils down to finding the right value to match "enhance details" and 1 seems too low for 0.1 and 2 appears too high for 0.2 so I'm not sure, I'd love to try 1.5 & 2.5 please. How about stretching 1>4 to to 1>12 please?

[jkauff]

Yes they are.

Reduce Compression Artifacts = Deblocking
Reduce Random Noise = Denoising.

Questioning two people that gave you the same answer when you don't even know yourself, without even taking a minute to test that answer and blindly assume your right based on an assumption? :o
Pardon me. I was expecting the same terminology used in the Processing tab. Whichever terms madshi uses, they should be the same both places in the UI so simpletons like me don't confuse them.

[mclingo]

Hi @MADSHI, do you have any advice re settings for AMD users who need to use FSE, all these hangups are gradually trashing my pc. I've had to power cycle about 50 times in the last 7 days, i've had two hard get badly corrupted, one failed altogetherl and now my lan card died today also, where these may be unrelated having to power cycle 12 hard drives constantly is taking its toll I think.

The problem seems to happen mainly if you are in 2160p resolution in that it drops into 1080p to play the movie, (it always plays it fine) but when you press stop it stops ok, I see my TV drop out of 3D mode to 2D, then I get a black screen and my PC hangs completely and has to be power cycled.

What I havent tried yet is to change my desktp res into 1080p first so it doesnt have to swap resolution when stopping, just hz, this is where its falling over I feel.

unless there is another way to get 3D on an AMD card, I've asked this many times now but not getting an answer from anyone.

I tried an nvidia 1050 and where this did work without FES and did seem to be more stable I couldnt get frame drops any better than 4 mins without reclock and 9 mins with, there is a bug now where custom resolutions wont hold, they just set as default 24.000 or 23.000 even if you set it as 23.976 so I gave up on that.



EDIT - I think that workaround works, I dropped into 1080p, started a 3d movie, waited a few secs and stopped it, no crash, did this five times in each of MPC and KODI DS - I might look at writing a script or something to bolt onto KODI DS.

[Magik Mark]

Hi madshi!

Thanks to the new update. True, rendering time is slower for RCA. However, it seams switching to NGU sharp (med) is ignored when RCA is activated. It always switches back to NGU sharp (high)

[ryrynz]

Mark, read madshi's post regarding this. Upping NGU is a requirement to process RCA for free.

[Magik Mark]

Mark, read madshi's post regarding this. Upping NGU is a requirement to process RCA for free.

Oops! My bad. My apologies

[ryrynz]

Nevermind.

[MistahBonzai]

I had been a daily follower here for several years but have been out of the loop for a few months. And when I returned I began seeing references to "RCA". I quickly realized it wasn't an RCA connection. Searching (Ctrl+f) through the guides for "RCA" didn't uncover anything. I apologize for what may seem a newbie question but..What is "RCA" in the context of madVR? TIA :)
EDIT: It wouldn't happen to be "Reduce Compression Artifacts" would it?

[Gopa]

Madashi: Thank you for RCA + NGU Sharp. Anime images are perfect. NGU Sharp very high + RCA high (GTX1070).

[YxP]

What is "RCA" in the context of madVR? TIA :)

It reduces the blocky compression artefacts you might sometimes see with bad sources. Look for 0.92.5 release notes.

[MistahBonzai]

Thank you :)

[Manni]

Just to report that I got build 1709 installed today, and everything is working fine with 385.28. MadVR switches in and out of HDR automatically, the OS HDR switch remains off, so that's a known working config. I was even able to reinstall WMC 8.8.1, so fairly painless after all.

I'll report if I hit any problems, but right now that seems fine. I won't try to upgrade the driver unless someone reports that a more recent version works fine with 1709.

EDIT: forgot to say that 4K23p with a MadVR custom res still works fine with one frame drop every hour or so (vs every 5mn without the custom res). So as far as I can see there is no reason not to upgrade to Falls Creators Update as long as you stay with 385.28 for nVidia. This was with the latest MadVR 0.92.10.

[Backflash]

I do not think you will see any difference with a 404p source, but NGU in gamma light appears generally very slightly sharper than NGU in gamma-linear light and the edges thinner.
Sometimes NGU gamma-linear light is sharper on some edges, but also "wrong" most of the time and/or unnatural on those edges, so I used "soften edges" before to try to get rid of them and to smoothen edges with aliasing too.
Not needed anymore with NGU in gamma light.
@madshi :thanks:

400p example is for RCA+NGU only. I don't use RCA on 720p or higher.
I despise soften edges on any source. Why do you run NGU Sharp if you don't like sharpness?
I don't care if it's wrong, what I care about if it doesn't blur my image in places where I focus my view. And adjusted NGU Sharp seems slightly off to me.
It's pure preference thing and how my eyes work, NGU Standard/AA shouldn't have this problem to begin with.

[Neo-XP]

Why do you run NGU Sharp if you don't like sharpness?
You can always have more sharpness, but it comes with a cost.
I do like sharpness, but not for instance the ugly aliasing artifacts that come with it (with the linear-gamma NGU).
I did a comparison a while back : https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1804766#post1804766
Soften edges was used to try to get rid of that and other ugly edges, but it was not perfect and I do not use it anymore with the NGU in gamma light.

FYI, the new "remove compression artifacts can now be run as part of NGU" feature comes with a new option called "run as part of NGU, if possible", which allows you to turn this feature on/off. Ideally, I'd like to remove this new option and *always* run RCA as part of NGU, where possible. But I wanted to give you the chance to test both approaches to see if running both separately might be better for images quality or not. So please do test that and report back.

Running RCA separately from NGU performs better quality wise, but I think it is expected. The algo when running it as a part of NGU is less aggressive too. I think RCA as part of NGU is "good enough" to be activated by default if possible, but it would be nice to be able to run it separately by disabling this behavior on the "trade quality for performance" page (because it is just what it does: trade quality for performance).

The difference between "medium" and "high" quality is minimal in comparison.

[Backflash]

but it comes with a cost.
True. What i'm trying to say that this cost is okay for me personally, I get why you don't like it. I would like "NGU Sharp" to stay ridiculous option for weirdos like me.

[mclingo]

Just to report that I got build 1709 installed today, and everything is working fine with 385.28. MadVR switches in and out of HDR automatically, the OS HDR switch remains off, so that's a known working config. I was even able to reinstall WMC 8.8.1, so fairly painless after all.

I'll report if I hit any problems, but right now that seems fine. I won't try to upgrade the driver unless someone reports that a more recent version works fine with 1709.

EDIT: forgot to say that 4K23p with a MadVR custom res still works fine with one frame drop every hour or so (vs every 5mn without the custom res). So as far as I can see there is no reason not to upgrade to Falls Creators Update as long as you stay with 385.28 for nVidia. This was with the latest MadVR 0.92.10.

i couldnt get a custom res dialled in at all so i was stuck on frame drops every few mins, when i clicked "TEST" it looked ok, 23.976 was in there but when I looked at it again using edit it had reverted to 24.000, did this every time, gave up in the end, other people are also having same issue, is there a drive version this definately works on?

[Neo-XP]

True. What i'm trying to say that this cost is okay for me personally, I get why you don't like it. I would like "NGU Sharp" to stay ridiculous option for weirdos like me.

Well you can have the same sharpness now (or more) with NGU in gamma light, without the aliasing. And you can always use some upscaling refinements of you want even more sharpness, but I do not think more sharpness is needed in NGU itself.

In this matter, NGU Sharp + RCA make a lot of sense, because compression artifacts are much more visible when upscaling with NGU Sharp than NGU Standard for instance.
Unfortunately, RCA can not always be enabled (you will loose details on sources that do not need it) and there is no way (for now) to detect if a source needs it or not.

[Manni]

i couldnt get a custom res dialled in at all so i was stuck on frame drops every few mins, when i clicked "TEST" it looked ok, 23.976 was in there but when I looked at it again using edit it had reverted to 24.000, did this every time, gave up in the end, other people are also having same issue, is there a drive version this definately works on?

This has been reported a long time ago and is not a problem.

When you create a custom res with MadVR for 23p, the 24p option disappears from the driver in the drop-down list for refresh rate, and the custom res created is listed as 24p in the driver, but in reality, it's a 23p refresh.

So if you select 23p (with MadVR's auto refresh rate or with any software, for example, MyMovies), it's the 23p custom res (listed as 3840x2160, progressive with a 24p refresh rate in the driver) that will be applied. This is an interface bug in the driver, it has no effect in reality.

When this custom res is applied, I play all my 23p content at 23p and I have one frame drop every hour on my JVC.

You have to use 385.28. Any more recent version of the nVidia driver has a problem or another with Windows 10.

[mclingo]

This has been reported a long time ago and is not a problem.

When you create a custom res with MadVR for 23p, the 24p option disappears from the driver in the drop-down list for refresh rate, and the custom res created is listed as 24p in the driver, but in reality, it's a 23p refresh.

So if you select 23p (with MadVR's auto refresh rate or with any software, for example, MyMovies), it's the 23p custom res (listed as 3840x2160, progressive with a 24p refresh rate in the driver) that will be applied. This is an interface bug in the driver, it has no effect in reality.

When this custom res is applied, I play all my 23p content at 23p and I have one frame drop every hour on my JVC.

You have to use 385.28. Any more recent version of the nVidia driver has a problem or another with Windows 10.

I dont think this is the same issue, i'll explain exactly what happens.

I fill in in like this:

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/data/967739/b/b8/b84da864_Capture.jpeg


I then click TEST and save it.

When I edit it to check it, it looks like this

http://videoff7.free.fr/1920x1080_24hz.jpg

I cant get it to save it as 23.976 which is why I cant get any better than a few mins, other people on NVIDIA forums have said the same thing, if I'm doing something wrong i'd be chuffed to bits If I could fix this so I could scrap my RX550 and its hanging issues,

What do you think i'm doing wrong then?

[Manni]

I dont think this is the same issue, i'll explain exactly what happens.

I fill in in like this:

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/data/967739/b/b8/b84da864_Capture.jpeg


I then click TEST and save it.

When I edit it to check it, it looks like this

http://videoff7.free.fr/1920x1080_24hz.jpg

I cant get it to save it as 23.976 which is why I cant get any better than a few mins, other people on NVIDIA forums have said the same thing, if I'm doing something wrong i'd be chuffed to bits If I could fix this so I could scrap my RX550 and its hanging issues,

What do you think i'm doing wrong then?

What you're doing wrong is you're not using MadVR to create the custom res. You need to follow the doc and use the custom modes in display modes for your display in MadVR settings.

[strumf666]

HDR works on AMD. At least on Vega with today's crimson adrenalin drivers on fall's creators update, using PotPlayer.
Switching and playback, lav needs to be set to DXVA2 copyback or native d3d11 doesn't work. Not 100% stable though, switching between hdr and sdr (stopping playback or minimizing from fullscreen) can lock the player and/or os.

[HillieSan]

I have 100% stable results with LAV set to 3d311 and madvr set to 3d311 presentation on AMD RX 480 with latest MPC BE. I will install adrenalin soon and see what happens.

BTW FSE does not work for GNU, but does work for the other algorithms.

[mclingo]

What you're doing wrong is you're not using MadVR to create the custom res. You need to follow the doc and use the custom modes in display modes for your display in MadVR settings.

I had completely missed that, to be fair i[ve been using AMD for years so never had to use this, i might have a look at that then, cheers.

[mclingo]

HDR works on AMD. At least on Vega with today's crimson adrenalin drivers on fall's creators update, using PotPlayer.
Switching and playback, lav needs to be set to DXVA2 copyback or native d3d11 doesn't work. Not 100% stable though, switching between hdr and sdr (stopping playback or minimizing from fullscreen) can lock the player and/or os.

Hi, HDR is pretty stable on 17.11.2, starts, stops and skips no crashes.

however this might also be because MADVr doesnt have to switch resolutions as all of my HDR stuff is 4k the same as my desktop, most if not all my hangs happen when my player, KODI DS or MPC are jumping back from a 1080p movie back to my desktop 4k resolution.

When playing MVC 3D it hangs nearly every time if I play a 1080p movie straight from my 4k desktop using FSE, however if I drop my desktop down to 1080p so it doesnt have to switch... no crashes.

Pretty sure its the resolution change thats causing the crash.

[cyber201]

Just to report that I got build 1709 installed today, and everything is working fine with 385.28. MadVR switches in and out of HDR automatically, the OS HDR switch remains off, so that's a known working config. I was even able to reinstall WMC 8.8.1, so fairly painless after all.

I'll report if I hit any problems, but right now that seems fine. I won't try to upgrade the driver unless someone reports that a more recent version works fine with 1709.

EDIT: forgot to say that 4K23p with a MadVR custom res still works fine with one frame drop every hour or so (vs every 5mn without the custom res). So as far as I can see there is no reason not to upgrade to Falls Creators Update as long as you stay with 385.28 for nVidia. This was with the latest MadVR 0.92.10.

Hi Manni,
With FCU have you the bug of the Full Screen Exclusive Mode?
A black screen when windows try to set the correct refresh rate.

Thanks
Bye

[mastrboy]

So a weird bug appeared after updating my Nvidia Driver, the Nvidia Geforce Experience FPS counter is now displayed during madVR video playback, but only when Exclusive Mode is activated.

Anyone else experiencing this? Or maybe someone knows a quick fix/workaround?

[Manni]

Hi Manni,
With FCU have you the bug of the Full Screen Exclusive Mode?
A black screen when windows try to set the correct refresh rate.

Thanks
Bye

I don't use FSE except for 3D, so I only did quick tests but in 4K23 everything played fine (I tested FHD and UHD content) with FSE enabled. I always have a black screen on my PJ when switching refresh rates, so you'll need someone else to confirm that bug.

3D still needs FSE here (it works otherwise but although the PJ reports 1080pFP and MadVR reports 3D, it's only 2D. I know some people don't need FSE even for 3D but here I've never been able to achieve that.

No problem with FSE enabled for 3D, except that I have a dropped frame every 3-5mn as it's not possible to set 1080p23FP separately when creating a custom frame, and for some reason WMC (I use MyMovies with WMC 8.8.1 as a front end) is windowed when I stop playback, but that has nothing to do with MadVR. I only have to maximise the window to make it full screen again.

[Neo-XP]

madVR v0.92.10 released
* default value for HDR -> SDR conversion is now set to "200 nits"

I have noticed that the minimal value is 120 and the maximal value is 10000, but what does it mean ? Do we have to adapt it depending on our monitor ? How do we find the right value ?

[ryrynz]

Look at the specs or a review of your monitor/TV. If you have a color calibration tool you can find out what the max is from that as it will change depending on the picture mode you set.
I would think most LCD screens would be set at the minimal of 120, but I did wonder why madshi increased it to 200, is that more suitable for the general viewer, madshi didn't say.
Set to 120 and compare with 200 and see what you prefer.. maybe this improved HDR behavior could be tied partially to the now default nit value?
I'm going to compare madVR versions and those two nit levels on my Dell U2415 and report back.

Madshi, each of the ax files have gained a few MB each, that expected?

200 nits looks a lot better here, "let madVR decide" under HDR for versions under 0.92.9 gives a pretty dull and washed out picture. Comparing 0.92.9 200 nits vs 0.92.10 "let madVR decide" look near visually identical so HDR improvements that have been made seem to be fairly minor improvements, but this as with anything could change depending on what's being viewed on what device. I used The World in HDR (https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&confirm=FGHw&id=0Bxj6TUyM3NwjWHU5ZjMzLUFPOFE) to test.

[huhn]

the default was 400, 600 or at least higher.

the LCD spec max brightness is a waste of time.

[ryrynz]

Do panels give any info about max nits that perhaps 'let madVR decide' can work with?

[Asmodian]

The default used to be 400. That is very bright for a SDR monitor, my last SDR calibration was at 103 nits for optimal dark room viewing but I like madVR set to 200 more than 120.

Do panels give any info about max nits that perhaps 'let madVR decide' can work with?

No they do not and you couldn't trust them if they did. Also the brightness setting directly controls this so everyone would have to have the screen set to 100% for it to be accurate