madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[SamuriHL]

I am going to be building a new htpc soon for another location. Could you elaborate a bit for me on the AMD stuff?

As huhn said, they appear to have a competitive card out now in the 6800 XT. But we don't know yet what the real benchmarks will be or how it would perform in madvr. One can surmise that it would do quite well based on what we've seen so far. It's something to keep an eye on.

The only caveat I PERSONALLY have is that I hold out hope that at some point we may see tensor core algorithms but most people shouldn't care for several reasons. First, they don't exist today. Second, there's a very real chance that they won't make it to madvr and will instead be exclusive to the Envy. So making a choice of video card today based on a hypothetical future thing that has a low probability of happening is not something 99.9% of people should be doing. They should instead look at the best bang for buck and that really could be AMD right now. We'll know more soon.

[Manni]

As huhn said, they appear to have a competitive card out now in the 6800 XT. But we don't know yet what the real benchmarks will be or how it would perform in madvr. One can surmise that it would do quite well based on what we've seen so far. It's something to keep an eye on.

The only caveat I PERSONALLY have is that I hold out hope that at some point we may see tensor core algorithms but most people shouldn't care for several reasons. First, they don't exist today. Second, there's a very real chance that they won't make it to madvr and will instead be exclusive to the Envy. So making a choice of video card today based on a hypothetical future thing that has a low probability of happening is not something 99.9% of people should be doing. They should instead look at the best bang for buck and that really could be AMD right now. We'll know more soon.

tensor cores are not the only reason to think twice before going for amd. nvidia is the only way to set the bt2020 flag for those who use this to select a sdr bt2020 calibration automatically in their display, using an hd fury or not.

sorry but in a vm and no caps. will correct later

[huhn]

AGS has an option for this but i'm not sure it can only be used with HDR.
so madshi has to nearly for sure update the API and that doesn't mean it works...
and it's been a while since the last update.

[SamuriHL]

tensor cores are not the only reason to think twice before going for amd. nvidia is the only way to set the bt2020 flag for those who use this to select a sdr bt2020 calibration automatically in their display, using an hd fury or not.

sorry but in a vm and no caps. will correct later

This is true. I don't calibrate SDR to bt2020 on my C8 so I always forget that people do this.

[Manni]

This is true. I don't calibrate SDR to bt2020 on my C8 so I always forget that people do this.

It’s not for SDR, it’s to tonemap HDR to SDR (BT2020 or P3). You use this when using pixel shader tonemapping. If you use HDR passthrough, it usually doesn’t matter as an HDR calibration is selected.

[SamuriHL]

Right, yes I remember why people use it but as I output HDR on my C8 I don't have need to use that particular flag and forget that some people do.

[LordX2]

Finally sat down and just enjoyed watching some movies.

Using Beta 113

I feel like I have my PEAK nits set right - bright scenes are BRIGHT - and look amazing!

DARK scenes also look good, blacks are not washed out etc.

It's the 'middle' scenes that seem..... too dark to me... almost like my eyes feel 'strained' while watching. Is this something that the dynamic nits setting could help? Right now I am running 100 peak, 50 dynamic. If I upped it to 60, would that increase or decrease average brightness? Or is it inversely related to brightness like peak nits?

[SamuriHL]

It will impact everything. It can be tough to dial it in just right. You'll have to play with the dynamic setting to find the right mix. Also the curve you set has a lot to do with it, too, which is why those curves are in there. That's one of the things that was being tested with that build. And while there are a few curves that are popular, no one agreed on just one curve. And it wasn't even separated by PJ vs panel owners, either. It was varied across the board on what people liked. So yea, it's going to be tough to get a perfect PQ, but, you can get it pretty close.

[nsnhd]

I think the right way is that you have to set the peak to the maximum real nits of the display and use the dynamic to adjust the HDR effect, is that correct ?

[SamuriHL]

That's how it's supposed to work, yes. By telling madvr the real display nits of your display, it can tone map everything up to that max. The dynamic setting impacts the overall brightness, the HDR effect, as you put it. You don't necessarily want to lie to madvr about the real display nits, although some people do for various reasons.

[LordX2]

It will impact everything. It can be tough to dial it in just right. You'll have to play with the dynamic setting to find the right mix. Also the curve you set has a lot to do with it, too, which is why those curves are in there. That's one of the things that was being tested with that build. And while there are a few curves that are popular, no one agreed on just one curve. And it wasn't even separated by PJ vs panel owners, either. It was varied across the board on what people liked. So yea, it's going to be tough to get a perfect PQ, but, you can get it pretty close.

That was my final question (curve related) - I tried posting it on the HDR to SDR thread but no answer:

If I set the Contrast Recovery option to disabled - am I using just the straight BT.2390 curve? I wanted to try with nothing to get a 'baseline' and then see from there.

I gotta say, with it (contrast recovery) set to disabled, it looks amazing. My Sony 285ES has pretty good contrast setting adjustments already - so I am wondering if I need any contrast 'recovery' at all...

Like I said on the other post, the black levels are amazing. When I am watching widescreen, and someone has a black cloak for example, I can't tell the difference between their cloak and the 'black bars' at the bottom. If I pause just right, I can't even make out the line where the black bar starts.

It's really just the median brightness, so I hope playing with dynamic nits can get that tuned in right.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

That was my final question (curve related) - I tried posting it on the HDR to SDR thread but no answer:

If I set the Contrast Recovery option to disabled - am I using just the straight BT.2390 curve? I wanted to try with nothing to get a 'baseline' and then see from there.

I gotta say, with it (contrast recovery) set to disabled, it looks amazing. My Sony 285ES has pretty good contrast setting adjustments already - so I am wondering if I need any contrast 'recovery' at all...

Like I said on the other post, the black levels are amazing. When I am watching widescreen, and someone has a black cloak for example, I can't tell the difference between their cloak and the 'black bars' at the bottom. If I pause just right, I can't even make out the line where the black bar starts.

It's really just the median brightness, so I hope playing with dynamic nits can get that tuned in right.
To get a little more "median brightness" try a few different gamma settings and see what looks best for you. After some experimenting I've settled on the settings below for my JVC X790 (Natural picture mode, BT.2020 color profile, 7500K color temp, Normal gamma) which seems to provide a great balance in terms of darks and brights. Some may cry heresy (and perhaps there's room for a couple more tweaks as I'm still learning myself), but these settings look great to my eyes.

Under "hdr" I've settled on the following:

display peak luminance: 100
desaturate 1
color tweaks for fire & explosions: disabled
highlight recovery: high
contrast recovery: Soulnight's Mirror
shadow recovery: disabled
dynamic target nits: 110
no compr limit: 120
disable avgHighlights ceiling: checked

Everything else under "hdr" left at default.

Under "calibration" of the device properties I'm now using "BT.709/601 curve" where it says "the display is calibrated to the following transfer function /gamma" and with a setting of 2.20.

Under "color & gamma" I have "enable gamma processing" checked and set to "pure power curve" at 2.20.

Now, it's possible I may be doing a couple of things that aren't entirely necessary or recommended (and your mileage may vary due to having a different display that's calibrated differently), but the end result for me is one of the most stunning images I've seen from this projector.

[LordX2]

Thank you for the tips!!

What exactly does 'highlight recovery' do? I saw some mentions of it in passing - but never an in depth explanation.

I will try the calibration settings and see if that makes any difference!

PS - Does the calibration setting change 1080p content too? My 1080p stuff is spot on, so I wouldn't want to change that.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Thank you for the tips!!

What exactly does 'highlight recovery' do? I saw some mentions of it in passing - but never an in depth explanation.

I will try the calibration settings and see if that makes any difference!

PS - Does the calibration setting change 1080p content too? My 1080p stuff is spot on, so I wouldn't want to change that.

Highlight recovery simply sharpens up the HDR highlights so that they're a little bit more defined after range compression.

Here is a link that gives an example. It's a subtle improvement but it's there (the lightning isn't as sharp when highlight recovery is set to none):

None: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3GJ
Medium: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3Gx

Other settings with examples:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1840876

[Asmodian]

highlight recovery sharpens highlight details, trying to improve the visibility of highlight details after they are compressed into the small brightness range used for highlights.

[LordX2]

Highlight recovery simply sharpens up the HDR highlights so that they're a little bit more defined after range compression.

Here is a link that gives an example. It's a subtle improvement but it's there (the lightning isn't as sharp when highlight recovery is set to none):

None: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3GJ
Medium: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3Gx

Other settings with examples:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1840876

Those images are great references!

Do the calibration settings effect all sources played? Or just the 4k HDR stuff?

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Those images are great references!

Do the calibration settings effect all sources played? Or just the 4k HDR stuff?
Just the 4K HDR stuff (tone mapping using pixel shaders). SDR is not affected by the HDR settings, but would be affected by the gamma settings.

[LordX2]

Ok, I gave that a shot.... wow... the gamma boost really made a difference on the darker scenes. I was using star trek beyond as a random sample, and in one scene where I paused with people running through a hallway, it seemed almost entirely dark. When gamma was enabled, I could see the corridor walls and details that were just dark before!

Now, a side effect of the gamma boost is that I can see 'noise' in some scenes. I don't know if the noise is always there, and now that gamma boost is enabled I can 'see' it, or if the gamma boost introduced the noise.

I tried the different dithering settings, and even the noise reduction settings, but it looks like the noise is something I am going to have to live with as all of those settings were hitting above max for my little gtx 1650 super.

Bright scenes are not impacted, or I have not noticed the noise on them yet.

Gamma also reduces the appearance of blacks, so I went back to soulnights mirror to get some of the contrast recovery.

So I have to watch some stuff and come to the decision whether actually seeing stuff with noise is better than not seeing the stuff at all.

I am a big fan of brightness though (quite literally, I never even wear sunglasses). So I feel like if this solves my eye strain during mid level scenes, it is worth it.

Thank you again for the suggestion!

PS - if you have some ideas about the noise, I am all ears - just limited with the hardware. All sources I use for testing are 4k remux.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

You can try adjusting "pure power curve" a few steps, from 2.20 to 2.25 to 2.30. This will lower the brightness slightly, see if there is a setting that gives you a good balance somewhere without sacrificing shadow detail. I'm set on the settings shared above as it strikes a good balance on my projector.

Usually the noise is in the source material. I rip all of my 4K titles and store them 1:1, so no compression artifacts and "noise" unless it's inherently in the video itself. Brightening the picture up may just make some of it a little more visible.

[tzr916]

What madvr version and options, or nvidia drivers work best to eliminate (or minimize) FSE black screen?

Using JriverMC for watching Live Tv and recorded shows (ts files), that are mixture of 1080p or 720p mpeg2 or h264, USA ATSC broadcast and cable. Upscaling everything to 2160p60.

With FSE enabled, about 1 out of 5 times, when starting live tv or file playback, the Tv screen stays all black, sound plays to AVR (bitstream). Only way to correct it, is to stop playback and re-start it. Once FSE locks in, the screen never goes black again, until starting a new video or changing tv channel.

The best answer is, don't use FSE. Use FS windowed instead. If you absolutely must use FSE, right-click on your media player shortcut/executable -> Properties -> Compatibility -> check "Disable fullscreen optimizations".


During my experiments with the new GTX1660, seems I had changed the "number of frames to present in advance" to 16. So I rolled it back to 8, and so far have yet to encounter black screen, even when channel changing.

[LordX2]

Is there a way to setup a 'hot key' for the gamma setting? It's my only difference between watching hdr and 1080p. As opposed to creating full profiles, a single hot key for this would be awesome.

I got some HDR black level video testers, so I will sit down there later and see if I need to adjust the gamma setting.

[huhn]

one way is by creating a 2 profile and adding a hotkey to the profiles.

[LordX2]

Ok, so my black levels were definitely being CRUSHED!

I used the following videos as tests: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1UnPiHQrJjldIPbfVwt95S7ck0tvR4yUM

Even WITH the gamma turned on, the lowest number I can see is 76 (with reference black being 64).

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Ok, so my black levels were definitely being CRUSHED!

I used the following videos as tests: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1UnPiHQrJjldIPbfVwt95S7ck0tvR4yUM

Even WITH the gamma turned on, the lowest number I can see is 76 (with reference black being 64).
What display are you using and what playback software? Also, do you have madVR set to output full range and your desktop set to limited? If not, give that a try.

[LordX2]

What display are you using and what playback software? Also, do you have madVR set to output full range and your desktop set to limited? If not, give that a try.

MPC-HC (the version still being updated).

I did attempt to set the computer to limited output (with madvr at full) - no difference on the black levels, just a washed out look to the screen.

Display is a Sony 285ES Projector.

[LordX2]

So, I played the test clip in MPV Player, and I can see all the way down to the 68 black bar.

So this is definitely something in madvr, not my display etc.

The picture isn't as 'sharp', but also no noise/grain effect on mpv player. And the lighting level (as you may imagine with the black bar test) looks great.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Are you using LAV filters for video decoding? If so, make sure your RGB output levels are set to Untouched. While you're at it, select D3D11 for your hardware decoder to use and Automatic (Native) for hardware device to use.

[huhn]

the RGB output option doesn't do anything for madVR just leave them at default

[Alexkral]

Doesn't use madVR 2.20 as the default gamma? I don't understand why setting the same produces any change. Has this been changed in latest builds?

[huhn]

it doesn't use 2.2 is expect to be the norm this has no effect on calibration if you know what you are doing and this means it wouldn't change the image if you set it as 2.2 and just leave it as it is.

[LordX2]

Checking the gamma box for 2.2 did help me.

But the fact that mpv player shows more of the blacks instead of crushing them means there is something not right with my madvr settings somewhere. It's not the display or windows settings.

I don't know enough about this stuff to even know where to begin looking in the settings. :(

[huhn]

make a screenshoot control print i tell you if madVR is clipping.
just setting this display is calibrated to gamma 2.2 is supposed to do nothing on it's own

[LordX2]

UPDATE:

Setting my Nvidia control panel to Limited output solved this issue.

At first, it looked totally washed out - but I had to reduce the 'brightness' on my projector. Once I adjusted it so it didn't have the washout effect, I reloaded the black level video and sure enough - I can see all the levels the same as with MPV Player.

Turns out, MPV Player automatically was putting out the limited range, which was why I was noticing a difference between the two players.

[Asmodian]

You can also set madVR to output as limited range if you wanted to keep your projector settings the same.

[LordX2]

You can also set madVR to output as limited range if you wanted to keep your projector settings the same.

Interestingly, switching madvr to limited resulted in the 'washed out' screen as well, and I would have to adjust my brightness. MPV Player didn't - so who knows what is different between the two. But madvr is the one I want to use always, and I only use the PC for movies and shows, so I have no problem with the 'updated' projector settings.

My only concern is that I had to turn down the brightness, so I wonder how much of an impact that will have on overall brightness for movies.

Is that where the contrast recovery curves come in? Or is overall brightness only really adjusted through the peak and dynamic NITS settings?

[huhn]

just make a screen with madVR in full range and i can tell if it is clipping black levels.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

the RGB output option doesn't do anything for madVR just leave them at default

Good to know.

[LordX2]

Another Update:

I was randomly looking through my projector settings, and I happened to see HDMI range. So I looked, and it was set to full range, so I decided to switch it to Limited Range to match the HTPC output.

Lo and behold, that was it.... after setting that, I was able to increase my brightness level on the projector back to where it was before with NO washed out effect.

Ran the black level video again, seeing all levels as I should.

I feel like I am in a video game where you enter a room with different symbols, and you have to randomly match the right symbols together to open a door or something....

I THINK I have finally found the right combination! Bright, excellent colors, great black levels, and all the madvr processing I can jam out of my 1650 Super!

So the solution to my black level issue was to set the Nvidia output to Limited as WELL as my projector HDMI input to Limited.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Enjoy :)

[SamuriHL]

Just make sure madvr is set to full. You may want to try setting madvr to limited, gpu full, pj limited. You may or may not like that better.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[LordX2]

Just make sure madvr is set to full. You may want to try setting madvr to limited, gpu full, pj limited. You may or may not like that better.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

So there is a chance that "Limited GPU, Full MadVR, and Limited PJ" may look different than "Full GPU, Limited MadVR, Limited PJ"? What would I be looking for exactly? Better blacks? Colors?

Also, as for setting peak/dynamic NITS - since I don't have a measuring tool for NITS, I had an idea. Get a Bly-ray Remux, and 4K Remux of the exact same movie. Find a somewhat dark scene, and then try to match the 4K hdr settings to match the brightness of the bluray scene.

Is this sound thinking in theory?

Also, the higher I can set the peak nits to the better right? Does it give more 'range'? Or does it only affect brightness and that's it?

[Asmodian]

So there is a chance that "Limited GPU, Full MadVR, and Limited PJ" may look different than "Full GPU, Limited MadVR, Limited PJ"? What would I be looking for exactly? Better blacks? Colors?

It would be pretty subtle. Better dithering, perhaps less noisy. Unless your projector processes limited v.s. full range video differently. Most content is limited range (bluray players, YouTube, etc.) so it is common for displays that aren't sold for use as a PC monitor to have better behavior with limited range input. Lots are fine too, so you can only compare.

Everything in Windows is natively rendered in full range RGB.

Ideally, assuming you only use madVR or similar (you don't care if Windows is clipping shadows and highlights) use:
Limited madVR -> Full GPU -> Limited PJ

But if you want Windows to also be correct (with extra dithering from the GPU doing a conversion):
Full madVR -> Limited GPU -> Limited PJ

Or for full range on the PJ:
Full madVR -> Full GPU -> Full PJ

Also, the higher I can set the peak nits to the better right? Does it give more 'range'? Or does it only affect brightness and that's it?

It isn't really higher is better, you want to set it "correctly".

As you lower peak nits it considers more of the total range highlights to compress into the very top of the display's capabilities. The more range you give normal brightness the less range you have for highlights so as you decrease peak nits you lose detail in bright lights or white shirts in brightly lit scenes, things like that, but you gain range for the rest of the scene.

Also, as you go too low it will look washed out because it ends up stretching the shadows and mids too much, the brightness increases too fast compared to the mastering gamma.

[SamuriHL]

Exactly what he said.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[dejarik]

I was wondering if someone tested Madvr with an RTX 3080, for some unknown reason I am experiencing random freezes, video card seems stable for the rest, hours of gaming with it already and never crashed but Madvr doesnt seem to play well with it.

[LordX2]

It isn't really higher is better, you want to set it "correctly".


Does it make sense to attempt to match the bluray lighting level?

EDIT: Tried Full GPU, Limited MadVR, Limited PJ and the 'wash out effect' was back. So immediately switched back to Limited GPU, Full MadVR, Limited PJ. This appears to be the 'magic' setting for me.

Finally: I have my contrast recovery setting at disabled. The stuff I have watched looks amazing, great color, brightness, and even black levels (to my relatively untrained eyes). What am I losing by having this set to disabled? What is the benefit of using the different curves?

PS - Once again, thank you for all the responses!

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Contrast recovery simply adds a bit of punch to the picture, basically lowering the darks and elevating the brights slightly. It's a personal preference thing. If the PJ looks great already, you can definitely leave it disabled.

Edit: There are a few films where it should be disabled imo as it seems to make the picture look a little overcooked. Eg. Star Trek (2009) on 4K. But most others look great with contrast recovery on (e.g Star Trek: Into Darkness). Note: On the rare occasion there are scenes that could show flickering with contrast recovery enabled, but I've only noticed it happening about twice (eg. There's a scene in The Revenant with DiCaprio walks up the side of a riverbank/slope with a campfire burning in the foreground. The sky here visibly flickers).

[SamuriHL]

Comparing blu-ray to UHD is not a super useful idea. People have spent lots of time trying, but, there are far too many differences in the formats. Don't waste your time.

[Asmodian]

SDR and HDR releases are simply mastered differently. The differences in one scene can be very different than the differences in another. It is usually impossible to have a single HDR -> SDR conversion that looks similar to the SDR release throughout the movie.

This is what we want too, what looks best for each scene is different in HDR and SDR. If the mastering process wasn't different there would be no reason for the HDR formats to exist. Most HDR mastering does need near 1000 nits to look its best so ideally watch an SDR master on a SDR display.

[LordX2]

SDR and HDR releases are simply mastered differently. The differences in one scene can be very different than the differences in another. It is usually impossible to have a single HDR -> SDR conversion that looks similar to the SDR release throughout the movie.

This is what we want too, what looks best for each scene is different in HDR and SDR. If the mastering process wasn't different there would be no reason for the HDR formats to exist. Most HDR mastering does need near 1000 nits to look its best so ideally watch an SDR master on a SDR display.

1080p content really does look great on the 4k PJ with madvr. But the 4k releases do look better. Crisper, sharper - as you would imagine with 4x the data. Definitely worth the time to get the picture looking good.

It is amazing how some sources (mastering?) have so much 'noise' in them. Just watched another hairy potter movie with the kids, such a dark movie - and a few scenes you could definitely notice noise on the faces and clothes of a few people.

Switch to a different movie, no noise. Better lighting? Who knows.

Even the way the the movie is filmed on purpose... like how the movie 300 has a heavy grain applied to it.....

I am hypersensitive now with all this staring at the screen....

PS - Can anyone recommend a super Clean Bright and Colorful 4k movie? Something with no grain or noise? Would be nice to have a 'reference' film.

[QBhd]

From everything you have posted and described, it sounds like you have you black levels all wrong. Wrong black levels will lead to visible noise and macroblocking in a lot of cases.

QB