madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Warner306]

What kind of numbers are RTX 2080 Ti owners seeing with the most intensive settings (e.g., NGU Very High) enabled for 4K content?

The only person who posted said there was a 40% performance improvement over the GTX 1080 Ti.

[Warner306]

Short question for a gpu upgrade end of the year. In case that the 1080 will disappear without a price tag of 300 Euro. I will look into an amd rx580 or vega56/64 how much more quality I can get in comparison to above settings with my gtx 960. I think the 4:4:4 and 10bit will make a huge step in pq, because the gtx can only handle 4:2:2 8bit. Or didnt I get more power and visual pq improvements. I ask because I want to switch next year from 55 oled to 65 oled or 75+ qled / micro led. Source is always with madvr via PC.

The GTX 960 can do 8-bit 4:4:4. You wouldn't get much of an upgrade with the RX 580 because it is slow with madVR. Your settings would end up more or less the same. I don't know if you need a Vega 56/64, but you could use higher settings in madVR. I think it depends on the person. Some people haven't watched a lot of content and don't really notice the difference, while others do. The GTX 960 can give you a good image, but it is just good enough for use with madVR at 4K.

Personally, I think the GTX 1060 6GB is the ideal GPU for madVR for current uses. You can't use very high upscaling, but you can do almost everything else.

See this build guide for more information: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/2364113-guide-building-4k-htpc-madvr.html

[Ampallang]

"960 can only handle 4:2:2 8bit" How did you even arrive at that? I ran 10 bit and 4:4:4 on my 960 no problem.



AHEM, madVR's tonemapping is kinda a big deal and he's sure as heck gonna want more than a 960 for that and other stuff. How the RX is gonna cope I have no idea though, someone can weigh in once the next version lands in maybe a week or two.


OK which Windows version and Treiber version?i can only use 4:2:2 8bit can you please send me a screen. I am running windows 10 and use native 4k resolution the refreshrate change nothing always al8 bit and 4:2:2.

@hdr when I compare color and greyscale ramps between 8 and 10 bit the 10bit look always smoother. Of course on blurays there is only 4:2:0 but never the less I want to try the 4:4:4 also I am interested in using ngu high. So I think an upgrade on gpu could be a good think especially when the price will drop soon. 1070 will be fantastic choice. An amd. Rx580 is down to 169 eur in 8gb. And vega is same price as 1070 ti on special

@el Filou the problem is the tonemapping on the one hand and on the other hand the blue white subpixel on oled at 400 nits. And this is exact the problem with hdr without tonemapping and hdr flag you won't get the high Nits. With hdr flag and tonemapping I had 800+nits.but tonemapping isn't very well and the colors are inaccurate because of blue white sub Pixel.

[huhn]

driver and windows version have nothing todo with that.

what is your end device and is a AVR in between?

[Ampallang]

driver and windows version have nothing todo with that.

what is your end device and is a AVR in between?
Device LG oled b7 nothing between.


Short question regarding madvr tonemapping. Normally I used a rec. 709 calibration on my isf profile and then do 3d lut for same and load to into madvr all on 100nits. Is it possible to switch LUTs? One profile lut for sdr content and one profile and lut for hdr to sdr tonemapping...so I can switch profiles on TV and the lut will be loaded in madvr regarding profiles. I mean when I understood right madvr can do the tonemapping from hdr to sdr use therefor a sdr lut and this will proberly look better than hdr as hdr on TV tonemapping. But will I get any benefits when I calibrate the TV profile for max gamut on max nits. And do a 3d lut on this max gamut? I mean tonemapping will do alot but it won't give you that kind of rich colors especially neon lights. Because they aren't in the rec709 gamut. I read now plenty of threads and post on this but I didn't get the answer I am looking into.

So b7 set to Max brightness tonemapping to that max brightness hdr to sdr via madvr what about the calibration 3d lut and the profile of TV gamut nits? Gamma 2.2 that I could find because madshi built the tonemapping math on this as far I could read.

[huhn]

what is the exact name of your GPU?

and about the 3d LUT. can't you see the inputs for bt 2020 and dci p3 3d LUTs on the 3d LUT calibration page?

so for the source colorspace you can use DCI P3 or BT 2020.

[SamuriHL]

Personally, I think the GTX 1060 6GB is the ideal GPU for madVR for current uses. You can't use very high upscaling, but you can do almost everything else.


I would certainly agree with that. I've got all the trade performance options disabled and I'm playing in 4K including the tone mapping for HDR. The 1060 6GB works very well!

[Ampallang]

what is the exact name of your GPU?

and about the 3d LUT. can't you see the inputs for bt 2020 and dci p3 3d LUTs on the 3d LUT calibration page?

so for the source colorspace you can use DCI P3 or BT 2020.

Asus strix gtx 960 4g.

Of course I can see the 3d lut for p3 and BT 2020 but as far as I know it isn't possible to load more than one lut into madvr. You have to decide which one you want and that it. Or did I miss understood something?

The problem is that you can't calibrate something else than sdr on oled TV via lut. The panel drift like hell and the tonemapping. But as I wrote I never used the madvr tonemapping before and this is the reason of my question if it will work to calibrate sdr to wide gamut and do the tonemapping with max brightness in sdr mode. For tonemapping hdr to sdr wcg with madvr

[huhn]

you can use them all at the same time.

[Ampallang]

you can use them all at the same time.

Great than I read something wrong. Good to know. But still issue with the measurement on TV.

First of all I have to fix the 4:4:4 10bit.
But to get a little bit deeper how would I calibrate the b7 and the 3d lut best fo hdr to sdr to do tonemapping via madvr?

[steakhutzeee]

As i can see, 'crop black bars' only works for hard coded black bars.
Instead 'zoom small black bars away' works with "all" black bars.

Am i right?

[huhn]

But still issue with the measurement on TV.
what?
First of all I have to fix the 4:4:4 10bit.
your card can do that (well 12 bit and 8 bit only cause nvidia is special.) so check your cable. RGB at 23 hz should be an option no matter what.
But to get a little bit deeper how would I calibrate the b7 and the 3d lut best fo hdr to sdr to do tonemapping via madvr?

you create a normal DCI P3 3D LUT with a gamma of 2.2

As i can see, 'crop black bars' only works for hard coded black bars.
Instead 'zoom small black bars away' works with "all" black bars.

Am i right?
madVR doesn't create blackbar that can be remove without zooming so yes to both.

[HDR]

AHEM, madVR's tonemapping is kinda a big deal and he's sure as heck gonna want more than a 960 for that and other stuff.
I have a 2GB 960 and with madVR tonemapping on, debanding on low, and Lanczos3 AR chroma I get like 22ms with 4k HDR videos.

There is plenty of room to up the chroma as well, but it's placebo to me.

[huhn]

than go to trade quality for.. and untick compromise on tone and gamut...

and check again.

[HDR]

than go to trade quality for.. and untick compromise on tone and gamut...

and check again.
Already unticked.

[huhn]

and now you tell us how you run a 60 fps file with 22 ms :-)

[HDR]

and now you tell us how you run a 60 fps file with 22 ms :-)
I don't, because 99.9999% of all movies/scripted tv is filmed at 24 or 25 fps.

[huhn]

so that still a waste of money?

[ryrynz]

Well to be fair he didn't say it was. But yeah coming from a 1060 and a 1080 I can tell you the extra headroom the 1080 offers comes in very helpful for displaying downscaled 4k hdr on an HD screen. With an actual 4k screen though the demands are lower but a 960 just doesn't really cut it and especially if you want the best hdr experience from the soon to be released version. It doesn't feel right to be using anything other than NGU and SSIM AFAIC but to each their own, I would never use lanczos now except on the lowliest of machines.

[huhn]

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1856899#post1856899

are sou sure he didn't say that?

the current highlight option cost so much processing power let just hope it gets better.

[ryrynz]

I have a GTX 960 and you'd be wasting your money.


Just as you saw the value in purchasing a ~$2000 USD TV many of us that actually have better graphics cards than the 960 see the value in using them.

When you consider what some hardware does in terms of upscaling and postprocessing in years gone by and even today and how much people can spend on these products to get that, $800USD is a small price to pay to unlock some of, if not the best upscaling and post processing options available in real time "on the market". To have the benefit to render 3D at the highest possible details as well at high frame rates? A bargain really, and a far cry from a "waste of money".

For the record I've used extensively with madVR a 750Ti 2GB, 960 2GB, 1060 6GB and a 1080 8GB. and I wouldn't trade my NGU doubling, NGU chroma and SSIM 2D downscaling on general content for anything.

[Ampallang]

what?

your card can do that (well 12 bit and 8 bit only cause nvidia is special.) so check your cable. RGB at 23 hz should be an option no matter what.


you create a normal DCI P3 3D LUT with a gamma of 2.2


Can someone with a gtx 960 and windows 10 show me where I can set 10 bit 4:4:4 I have no option in windows or in driver to set this up. There is no way overall refresh rates in native 4k at my pc. Also a driver version working with 10 bit will be nice to know.

Dci-p3 and bt2020 to calibrate and measure with PC in hdr mode is impossible. Due to tone mapping and drift of TV. Maybe different to try it in sdr mode with maximum gamut and maximum light without hdr meta data. I will give it a try.

Many thanks for all the interesting and good input.

[Betroz]

Amen! I too have a GTX 1080 card, and it is not overkill for MadVr use at all! In fact I will be buying a faster card next year (7nm).

[HDR]

Well to be fair he didn't say it was. But yeah coming from a 1060 and a 1080 I can tell you the extra headroom the 1080 offers comes in very helpful for displaying downscaled 4k hdr on an HD screen. With an actual 4k screen though the demands are lower but a 960 just doesn't really cut it and especially if you want the best hdr experience from the soon to be released version. It doesn't feel right to be using anything other than NGU and SSIM AFAIC but to each their own, I would never use lanczos now except on the lowliest of machines.
Just as you saw the value in purchasing a ~$2000 USD TV many of us that actually have better graphics cards than the 960 see the value in using them.

When you consider what some hardware does in terms of upscaling and postprocessing in years gone by and even today and how much people can spend on these products to get that, $800USD is a small price to pay to unlock some of, if not the best upscaling and post processing options available in real time "on the market". To have the benefit to render 3D at the highest possible details as well at high frame rates? A bargain really, and a far cry from a "waste of money".

For the record I've used extensively with madVR a 750Ti 2GB, 960 2GB, 1060 6GB and a 1080 8GB. and I wouldn't trade my NGU doubling, NGU chroma and SSIM 2D downscaling on general content for anything.
It does cut it though. I just checked and I can do NGU Sharp Medium for chroma, although just barely at 40ms. NGU Low is easier.

There's no downscaling on a 4k screen so no need for SSIM.

If you guys want to suggest to the guy he needs to upgrade to a $600 card to run madVR in 4k at good settings I'm going to disagree, having had this setup for several years.

I wouldn't recommend buying a 960 now, but you absolutely do not need to upgrade to something better at this point, and I think anyone who does thinking there is going to be some magical improvement is going to be disappointed.

It will give you more headroom, that's about it.

[ryrynz]

It does cut it though. I just checked and I can do NGU Sharp Medium for chroma, although just barely at 40ms. NGU Low is easier.


For you, for me it wouldn't. Just barely? No thanks.


There's no downscaling on a 4k screen so no need for SSIM.


I'm well aware, however I do downscale.


If you guys want to suggest to the guy he needs to upgrade to a $600 card to run madVR in 4k at good settings I'm going to disagree, having had this setup for several years.


A 1060 6GB can be had for $250 USD and offers considerable performance improvement unlocking higher quality settings and without the "just barely" GPU loading and fan noise that accompanies it.


I wouldn't recommend buying a 960 now, but you absolutely do not need to upgrade to something better at this point, and I think anyone who does thinking there is going to be some magical improvement is going to be disappointed.


What is it? You can't recommend it or it's perfectly suitable?
Having jumped from a 960 myself to a 1060 I can tell you as far as upgrades go it was pretty magical. You're using medium quality settings and only just scraping by on 24fps content which given how close you are to the frame time will likely lead to frame drops.
Suitable for you perhaps, plenty of users of 1060's and above would disagree with you there, we've all run lower tier cards in the past.


It will give you more headroom, that's about it.

We don't buy beyond low tier cards to just "gain headroom"
Like huhn said, you can't do 60fps at those settings and you won't get the highest quality HDR processing either. It suits your viewing habits only. Not good advice, sorry.

[Betroz]

NGU Sharp Very High is worth buying a $600+ dollar GPU for in my mind, but not a $1000+ one though (like the current price for 2080Ti).

[HDR]

ryrynz has to be trolling at this point.

The guy has a 4k OLED and you're talking about 1080p downscaling - irrelevant.

Like huhn said, you can't do 60fps at those settings and you won't get the highest quality HDR processing either. It suits your viewing habits only. Not good advice, sorry.
You can get the highest quality HDR processing as I've already stated.

There are no tv shows or movies shot at greater than 25 fps. Only sports, soap operas, and talk shows which are generally not available in HDR.

Not good advice, sorry.

All of this is funny coming from someone using a 1080p screen.

If you actually cared about quality you'd have a 4k OLED by now. But you don't, so you like to argue on the internet to justify your purchases.

[Betroz]

All of this is funny coming from someone using a 1080p screen.

Well I have a 75" Samsung Q9FN. I have a lot of 720p and 1080p content that I upscale to 4K, and I want the best PQ possible. I also want to keep the render stats below 30ms to avoid frame drops. If you let the render stats to go just below ~40ms, then you can get frame drops because of the max stats that sometimes jump higher. I prefer to have headroom.

[HDR]

1080p->2160p NGU Sharp High gets 19ms on a 960.

NGU Sharp Very High is worth buying a $600+ dollar GPU for in my mind, but not a $1000+ one though (like the current price for 2080Ti).
Sorry, but this is placebo. Even madshi agrees.

[ryrynz]

ryrynz has to be trolling at this point.


Think I'll ignore you from now on, it's relevant to me. I'm not "talking about it"


The guy has a 4k OLED and you're talking about 1080p downscaling - irrelevant.


Personally I feel your opinion on what constitutes as "good enough" is irrelevant.


You can get the highest quality HDR processing as I've already stated.


Tried the test build?


There are no tv shows or movies shot at greater than 25 fps. Only sports, soap operas, and talk shows which are generally not available in HDR.


And yet you're still maxing your low tier card. :)


All of this is funny coming from someone using a 1080p screen.


With a motion resolution that blows your OLED out of the water I might add.

Sorry, but this is placebo. Even madshi agrees.

If it had zero benefit he wouldn't have added it.


If you actually cared about quality you'd have a 4k OLED by now. But you don't, so you like to argue on the internet to justify your purchases.

And you were talking about irrelevancy.. You should really research your display technologies before making such wild remarks. I have nothing more to say to you.

[huhn]

@Ampallang
https://abload.de/img/outputformatu8ej2.png

@HDR
Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk

the problem is you can't easily cheap out on HDR settings like other settings.

and because you are so into a 960 2GB can you go make a screen with a file that has subtitles that use madVR subtitle API and up scale it to UHD with NGU high?
and because of this comment:
If you actually cared about quality you'd have a 4k OLED by now. But you don't, so you like to argue on the internet to justify your purchases.
don't forget the 3D LUT there is no way someone caring about image quality doesn't have/use that too.

this is "doable" with a 960 but good luck.

and about the topic what people need and what not you can kill every card with upscale refinement or super sampling. does this mean i agree with that no but i'm not going to say you don't need that only that i disagree with that.

if you think someone is wasting his money on a more powerful card ask him what he wants todo with that don't tell him you are wasting your money.

[Warner306]

1080p->2160p NGU Sharp High gets 19ms on a 960.


Sorry, but this is placebo. Even madshi agrees.

very high wasn't placebo, to me. So I don't agree. The picture is pretty sharp, as sharp as you'd ever want it.

[Ampallang]

@huhn many Thanks same here but when I check the signal and compare it with the oppo Grey and color ramps looks very different also the input signal tells different on a gtx 960.

@hdr could you share me per on here directly maybe some settings and profiles I now use the recommendation of Warner and Improve the settings to my machine and content. But still have the feeling to be fare away from the edge of what can be possible.

Will run some lut today and will analyze files for dynamic hdr. Will be interesting if it will be working in 4gb 960. Spottet 1070ti prices drops. So maybe end of the year I will buy one or vega. So far lucky with the 960 try to get more experience on the hdr tonemapping via madvr and without TV. Hopefully tomorrow evening I can compare.

[SamuriHL]

@HDR
Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk

the problem is you can't easily cheap out on HDR settings like other settings.


I just bought this movie and tried it last night for the first time on my 1060 6gb. I CAN NOT get it to play properly with HDR tone mapping enabled. I can get it to play with passthrough, but, even then I have to compromise on my normal settings. Anyone saying that it's a waste to buy more powerful cards....I can tell you that's a very personal decision and not worth arguing about. I quite frankly wish I had a 1070 or 1080 right now because I will not be able to reliably do 60FPS 4K content on my 1060....not at the settings I want to use, anyway.

[huhn]

i don't know what an oppo grey has to do with that and please be more precise.

[Ampallang]

Greyscale and color ramps on oppo looks different than with gtx 960. On oppo it is much smoother as I can see on other bigger cards than gtx 960. So I guess the gtx 960 is limited to this. But the 960 makes a great job so far but I didn't tried the tonemapping just sdr lut and upscaling.

[huhn]

what have bigger cards to do with this and how do you even do a fair test for this?

[Megalith]

Why is NGU better regarded than Jinc when there's the added addition of "other artifacts"?

[brazen1]

Just a ramble here fwiw.

I've been using an EVGA full sized dual fan GTX 960 4GB card for years. I feed it to a 4k display. I don't care about downscaling so I set to the lowest Bicubic60. I've found 4k HDR titles don't require any heavy duty processing to make them come to life however I use AA medium which is more than enough chroma imo. I've used higher chroma that taxes the system and I compare. I don't see a difference tbh. I assume by pixel peeping there is a difference but my eyes simply don't see it when just watching the movie. I have no anime interests fwiw. I could use higher but with my old CPU, I don't want to hear the fan spin faster because it's tied into the processing too and I can't justify taxing the CPU for no gain in what I see. I guess it saves the GPU load too and why I've never had a problem with it. Lowering madVR settings eases CPU processing for me. I don't need to trade off any quality to increase performance.

I only use highest quality 1:1 iso rips for just about everything in my library. SDR, HDR, 3D, etc. Low resolutions to 2160p benefit using madVR to give em' a kick in the pants and the improvement is noticeable. This isn't to say I don't use some junk rips also. Junk rips absolutely require madVR or they look like the junk that they are. Period. Imo, this is the only thing that makes OLED displays shine. They are great at making junk sources look decent. But madVR does equally as good a job if not better. madVR doesn't apply for broadcast TV or anything else that can't be processed outside the displays own logic though. madVR can't cure them so the display must... or stay away from this junk and pray media isn't killed off and replaced with streams. TV broadcast, Hulu, Netflix, etc. benefit because they are no where near the actual quality of the original source we use madVR for unless bandwidth increases magically by leaps and bounds someday. Jeesh, an HDMI cable over 6' already introduces problems with actual high bitrate content at 4k. Imagine the 8k hurdles on the horizon. I've no idea yet but then and only then do I feel I might need to upgrade this GTX 960 because so far... so good.

[mytbyte]

@brazen: MadVR can apply to broadcast TV if you use a tuner card in a PC instead of TV's tuners.

[ryrynz]

Why is NGU better regarded than Jinc when there's the added addition of "other artifacts"?NGU AA would be one the that's most comparable to Jinc in sharpness. You will not notice any artifacts in viewing its just the nature of these upscalers creating a approximate reproduction upscale. NGU doubles or quadruples the picture potentially allowing you to downscale and keep this reconstructed detail also. It's preferable depending on your tastes and settings, I use both for different content. As always just see what you prefer.

[huhn]

Why is NGU better regarded than Jinc when there's the added addition of "other artifacts"?

because it is generally better.
there are some cases where NGU sharp fails that is hard compressed files. while jinc only fails with what was it pixelart. it's a relative simple algorithm in comparison to NGU which can go wrong.

these rating bars lost quite some use i'm mean madshi didn't even bother to change them between soft, standard, sharp and AA and they clearly don't have the same sharpness.

[Siso]

because it is generally better.
there are some cases where NGU sharp fails that is hard compressed files. while jinc only fails with what was it pixelart. it's a relative simple algorithm in comparison to NGU which can go wrong.

these rating bars lost quite some use i'm mean madshi didn't even bother to change them between soft, standard, sharp and AA and they clearly don't have the same sharpness.

It would be good, if we could see each NGU sharpness level.

[huhn]

these number bars are not so help IMO anyway.

i never select a scaler depending on these bars i selected it on the results.

and i wouldn't be shocked if madshi removes standard and soft just to see how many even care.

[Siso]

these number bars are not so help IMO anyway.

i never select a scaler depending on these bars i selected it on the results.

and i wouldn't be shocked if madshi removes standard and soft just to see how many even care.

I kinda like NGU Standart, NGU Sharp seems kinda artificial to me, never used NGU Soft.

[ryrynz]

Yeah I think the plan was to remove those bars, also NGU soft probably won't be missed.

NGU sharp is very nice, probably looks best when downscaling it, so probably not so useful for 4k screen owners, I don't use it with much of any other sharpening but it looks great on my screen on 720 and 1080 content that I'm okay having it chew a total of 30ms on my GeForce 1080 in combination with SSIM 2D.

[Anima123]

I kinda like NGU Standart, NGU Sharp seems kinda artificial to me, never used NGU Soft.

NGU Soft is quite useful for 720p -> 1080p upscaling, it looks more natural than NGU Standard.

Hope madVR can keep NGU Soft in the future versions.

[nsnhd]

NGU sharp is very nice, probably looks best when downscaling it, so probably not so useful for 4k screen owners, I don't use it with much of any other sharpening but it looks great on my screen on 720 and 1080 content that I'm okay having it chew a total of 30ms on my GeForce 1080 in combination with SSIM 2D.

How can you choose NGU sharp when downscaling ? In combination with SSIM 2D ?

[ryrynz]

Upscale with NGU then downscale with SSIM, NGU is only an upscaler, SSIM is only a downscaler.
I prefer this as my primary sharpening process.

[Asmodian]

NGU Soft is quite useful for 720p -> 1080p upscaling, it looks more natural than NGU Standard.


I like NGU AA over NGU soft for content that needs a more natural looking upscale. 720 -> 1080 is a pretty small upscale so differences are more subtle but you don't like NGU AA for that?