madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[toniash]

Can someone help me with potplayer&madvr.
Is there somewhere a setting on the madvr settings/or potplayer settings where I can bright the picture up? And by how much?

Thank you!
In potplayer F5 -> Video -> ColorSpaces -> In colourControls you can adjust brightness and contrast, etc., also with shortcuts Q W E (reset Down Up)

[ND2560]

In potplayer F5 -> Video -> ColorSpaces -> In colourControls you can adjust brightness and contrast, etc., also with shortcuts Q W E (reset Down Up)

Hey thanks for the reply!

So these settings only change the picture of video/files without hdr. For files with hdr I could turn up the brightness and nothing happens. Even in the madvr settings in 'color&gamma can put brightness on 100 and nothing happens to the hdr picture.

It's interesting. I put my 4k bluray of Blade Runner 2049 in my XboxOne and paused in one of the city light scenes while playing a 4k file of the same movie/same scene in potplayer with madvr. I wanted to see if there are significant differences. And there were none.
I'm still learning about HDR and my Optoma projector. Maybe I have to play with the projector settings but I find it strange that the settings on potplayer/madvr won't affect the hdr on the player itself.

[clsid]

You can adjust HDR brightness this way:
madvr settings > devices > hdr > tone map hdr using pixel shaders > target peak nits

Lower values gives brighter image.

[Siso]

You can adjust HDR brightness this way:
madvr settings > devices > hdr > tone map hdr using pixel shaders > target peak nits

Lower values gives brighter image.

Which is the exact number to put there?

[Asmodian]

So I was surprised to learn that mpv has been supporting G-Sync for quite a while now. I installed it and sure enough, it works on my 65C9. It seamlessly switches refresh rate without blanking the screen, basically what HDMI 2.1's QMS is supposed to do. There's even an old post (https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=3509) (from 2017!) at blurbusters saying it works with VFR video.

That is very cool. I do wish madVR had support for VFR & VRR, that is how it should work.

Has there been anything on madVR supporting it since VRR got more mainstream with the newer TVs? I can't find anything about it, but I remember years old posts asking for it and madshi (IIRC) saying it wasn't feasible at the time.

No news from madshi and the technical issues have not changed. madshi wants to be able to send a frame to the OS with a timestamp, knowing exactly when it will be presented. As it is now the OS/GPU will send a frame to the display as soon as it gets it when using VRR. This means madshi would need to control the present timing in user mode software, which is much less precise than the V-sync intervals madVR frames are presented at today.

I think the level of precision madVR could achieve would still be a great experiance but it is a lot of work to develop and test. Has anyone analyzed MPV's output? No apparent frame timing issues? :o

[Alexkral]

Which is the exact number to put there?

What is your tv? Do you watch SDR at 100 nits or higher?

[LordX2]

So under DISPLAY MODES I set the value to allow the video to sync up when entering full screen.

In the box below, where it allows you to enter resolutions to switch to, I tried putting in 2160p23, and 3840x2160p23. Neither worked when trying to play a 1080p file - so I tried 1080p23 and it worked. Shows the composition rate at 23.976 even though the actual refresh rate isn't exactly that. So that is good!

Then I tried to play a 4K mkv file - and it does NOT show the composition rate at 23.976... the composition rate matches the refresh rate of the screen.

What did I do wrong? How can I get the 4k file (playing on a 4k screen) to have the 23.976 composition rate?

Is the proper line 4k23 or something like that?

[huhn]

the correct way to use it is to add only native resolutions like this:
2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p50, 2160p59, 2160p60.

the composition rate is unrelated to this the player has no way to change that it the rate the desktop runs at and it a little bit buggy in win 10.

what is the screen even can it even do 23p?

[Andy o]

Has anyone analyzed MPV's output? No apparent frame timing issues? :o

I tried mpv and it was switching frame rates, and I didn't do any fancy analysis, but I did see a few stutters, so it's not perfect. Besides, as a player, it's not really too useful for me cause it appears to not be able to bitstream higher than legacy multichannel audio. From what I can tell it's more like a proof of concept for our purposes, but I was surprised to be just hearing about it after at least 3 years that it was reported to work. Someone at AVS Forum mentioned it just off the cuff and I went googling.

[Siso]

What is your tv? Do you watch SDR at 100 nits or higher?

PC monitor AW3420WD calibrated to ~100 nits for SDR blu-rays.

[LordX2]

the correct way to use it is to add only native resolutions like this:
2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p50, 2160p59, 2160p60.

the composition rate is unrelated to this the player has no way to change that it the rate the desktop runs at and it a little bit buggy in win 10.

what is the screen even can it even do 23p?

Thank you for replying!

The screen can definitely do 23hz, I set it there all the time.

The composition rate DID change when madvr switched to 1080p - so madvr did have an impact on the composition rate.

Would just like to do it at 4k. Never switch down to 1080p, just make the composition rate 23.976 at the 4k level.

[Alexkral]

PC monitor AW34WD calibrated to ~100 nits for SDR blu-rays.

You mean AW3420DW? It is advertised at 350 nits, but rtings says that after calibration it only reaches 247. That should be the number for target peak nits if you want the SDR conversion to have the same brightness level as the HDR would have. If you want a brighter image you can reduce it, but in your case I wouldn't go further than 125.

Also make sure to use madVR's dynamic tone mapping (check "measure each frame's peak luminance") and set the backlight to max. In the new betas there are a lot more options, but they shouldn't alter this too much.

[LordX2]

Quick update,

I set the two resolutions for madvr to 2160p23, 2160p24

The composition rate is 23.980 when playing at my native resolution.

When I set the resolution in madvr command line to 1080p23, I obviously notice the res change when I play the file, and the composition rate is then 23.976 exactly, even though the refresh rate is still 23.980.

I would like to achieve this composition rate at the 4k level, without having to switch to 1080p.

Final issue - when madvr changes to 1080p, it doesn't automatically start playing the file, I have to hit space to start it... I sat there staring at a blank screen for like 30 seconds last night wondering if the program froze.... ahahahahah

[Asmodian]

I would rather have the composition rate match the refresh rate, it isn't good when they differ. I think your 1080p results are where it goes wrong, not 4K.

[tp4tissue]

I would rather have the composition rate match the refresh rate, it isn't good when they differ. I think your 1080p results are where it goes wrong, not 4K.

It's weird, cuz if I set my gpu to the 23.98hz mode, it matches the composition rate.

But if I use full screen exclusive mode, the composition rate shows 60hz, but the screen is still running 23.98hz.

it matches only in regular full screen. :scared:

[ND2560]

You can adjust HDR brightness this way:
madvr settings > devices > hdr > tone map hdr using pixel shaders > target peak nits

Lower values gives brighter image.

Hey thanks for the help!

Sadly I tried changing it from 200 to 190/150/50 but see no change when watching a hdr file/video....
Think I will give it up and up the brightness on my projector.

[Asmodian]

But if I use full screen exclusive mode, the composition rate shows 60hz, but the screen is still running 23.98hz.


Yes, FSE usually does more harm than good in recent Windows 10 builds.

[el Filou]

It's weird, cuz if I set my gpu to the 23.98hz mode, it matches the composition rate. But if I use full screen exclusive mode, the composition rate shows 60hz, but the screen is still running 23.98hz.Isn't that expected behaviour because composition rate is the rate of the DWM, and exclusive mode bypasses it?

[huhn]

i bypasses is in older windows version not in newer one it's pretty much windowed mode in win 10.

[LordX2]

So, I am finally migrating to MadVR for my HDR REMUX content since I realized you can do the setting for the NITS so it doesn't pass HDR to my projector (which is super dim with hdr!).

I have the screen refresh at 23.97612 (give or take the last two decimals) now for when I watch 23.976 content.

Shows one frame drop every 1.1 hours - so it looks like I will still get a drop during a 2 hour movie. (edit - after 1 hour and 45 mins, only one additional frame drop shows, wasn't watching, so don't know if it was noticeable, but the presentation glitches remained the same!).

Any other settings I should have on for such high bit rate content? Buffers/cache/etc etc? And is there a way to avoid that frame drop or it is what it is?

PS - Speaking of glitches etc, every time I start MPC/MadVR, there are a few frames dropped/repeated and a glitch shows up on the counter. Is there a way to not have this happen right when a file starts? Or reset the counter during playback?

PPS - same thing when I hover the mouse to get the time bar at the bottom of the screen. When it appears, there is a noticeable 'glitch/hop' to the video. Like it's having a hard time 'drawing' the slider while a movie is playing. Is there a way to correct this? Make the bar at the bottom lower res etc?

[Asmodian]

Try two or three frames presented in advanced in the windowed mode settings. Also try faster settings, sometimes I see presentation glitches when the reported average render times are somewhat close to, but still below, the frame time (sorry, not sure if you already did).

ctrl-r is the default hotkey to reset the stats.

The method to render that time tool tip does seem to interact badly. I disabled that feature so I don't accidentally trigger it. :o

[huhn]

bit rate of a file is irrelevant madVR handles the decoded frames which have the same size independent of encoded bit rate. defaults are usually fine and without knowing the hardware you are using there is no way to recommend anything.

when the playbar is called madVR doesn't have exclusive right to the desktop anymore so it has to change the rendering state which creates a hick up this depends on a lot of settings overlay presentation for example doesn't but it can do 10 bit.

you can reset the OSD by pressing control +r.

[LordX2]

Try two or three frames presented in advanced in the windowed mode settings. Also try faster settings, sometimes I see presentation glitches when the reported average render times are somewhat close to, but still below, the frame time (sorry, not sure if you already did).

ctrl-r is the default hotkey to reset the stats.

The method to render that time tool tip does seem to interact badly. I disabled that feature so I don't accidentally trigger it. :o

Interesting - so by displaying 2 to 3 frames 'in advance', when one is dropped, I wont notice it. Is that the gist? And what do you mean by 'faster settings'? The display is still technically 'faster' than the frame rate - even if it is only 0.00012 faster.

It looks like the settings are already at 8 frames when I checked. Both in windowed and exclusive. Is that too many?

What is the default mode? Windowed or exclusive? Which should be used with Windows 10 64bit?

Hardware:
Core i7-3770
Nvidia 1650 Super
16GB Ram
1TB Samsung SSD

[ryrynz]

Interesting - so by displaying 2 to 3 frames 'in advance', when one is dropped, I wont notice it. Is that the gist?


No, he means it may resolve one or two of the issues you listed.


And what do you mean by 'faster settings'? The display is still technically 'faster' than the frame rate - even if it is only 0.00012 faster.


Anything that is less demanding on your graphics card, he means changing the scalers or removing some post-processing, choosing lower quality options etc.


It looks like the settings are already at 8 frames when I checked. Both in windowed and exclusive. Is that too many?


Oftentimes you can get away with lower queues and can be less problematic.


What is the default mode? Windowed or exclusive? Which should be used with Windows 10 64bit?


Use Windowed.

[LordX2]

Oftentimes you can get away with lower queues and can be less problematic.



Use Windowed.

I was using GPU-Z to watch the graphics card during playback - and it is hovering around 10%. So ironically, I was going to ask about which performance settings I may be able to INCREASE. I noticed there was a whole section dedicated to 'sacrifice quality for performance'. Is there are particular setting here that would make the most difference? e.g. the FIRST thing I should uncheck if I have an ok video card.

Lastly, I set D3D11 for hardware decoding in LAV filters. It had two options, one for AUTO, and the other was to select the video card, thereby forcing copyback. Do either of these make a difference? Is one better for MadVR over the other?

I really appreciate all the responses, thank you!

[chros]

About the 2nd question. (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1878815#post1878815)

[LordX2]

About the 2nd question. (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1878815#post1878815)

Thank you! I browsed that forum topic, noticed the differences in CPU/GPU usage - but didn't see any explained benefit quality wise. I recall reading somewhere on these forums that copyback is needed for MadVR to apply all of its filtering/chroma etc. Is that an accurate statement?

[Asmodian]

Copyback is needed for some features, but not most of madVR's filtering and none of its scaling.

You need copyback for black bar removal and IVTC, but that is it.

[el Filou]

every time I start MPC/MadVR, there are a few frames dropped/repeated and a glitch shows up on the counter. Is there a way to not have this happen right when a file starts? Or reset the counter during playback?I'm not sure if the problem is it's bothering you or just that the counter was taking that into account, but if it's bothering you, you can try ticking "delay playback start until render queue is full" in general settings. There's also an option to do that too when seeking. It will add a small delay when starting playback and seeking, but should avoid dropped frames or glitches during those moments.

[Manni]

Copyback is needed for some features, but not most of madVR's filtering and none of its scaling.

You need copyback for black bar removal and IVTC, but that is it.

You also need copyback for bd/uhd bd menus in jRiver, for those who use it as a player or front end and want menus.

[VBB]

The other night I was messing with decoder settings, among other things. By changing everything except HEVC from "D3D11 native" to "None", and then enabling black bar cropping, I was able to get substantial performance improvements (8-10ms). Surprised me for sure, since my CPU is ancient (Core i7-920 from 2008). What really threw me off was that even without cropping, using CPU instead of GPU (GTX 960) was about 2ms faster.

[el Filou]

I've always been convinced there were issues with how madVR interacted with copyback decoding, seeing as every individual rendering step takes a hit in the stats in copyback when performance is decoding-limited due to an old system, look at this for example: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1885609#post1885609
The performance impact is not just on the decoding part. Feels like copyback hangs some paths in the GPU (it's not the PCIe bus), and if the system is limiting copyback speed then this impacts other rendering tasks.

[huhn]

the problem is these issues are very inconsistent between machines i have had system that didn't care at "all" about copyback. i needed very specific setup to show any different on that system and zen 2 on the other hand goes totally nuts and it works like a handbrake the last time i tested it this includes both nvidia and AMD gpus.

in my personal experience the difference is shown in the first renderstep and the last. so even the first super XBR chroma scale steps shows something like 3ms+ on my zen 2 with copyback and with native the usually ~0.3 same for the interop. it is like it waiting multiply MS to even start rendering.

[QBhd]

Not sure why anyone with a Zen 2 CPU would want or need to use hardware decoding... I am a firm believer in software decoding and if my ancient FX-8350 could just barely do HEVC 4K why wrestle with HW decoding?

QB

[LordX2]

Ok, I switched to copyback by selecting my card under D3D11.

I was able to play with quality settings, and it seems my max setting for Chroma upscaling is NGU Medium Anti-Aliasing.

Same with image upscaling - NGU Medium AA.

**Can I assume that any level of NGU is better than the default?**

These settings give a max of 62% GPU Load, with 3.2Gb of Video ram (out of 4) being used. So anything higher I feel would be pushing it for smooth playback.

Also, I noticed an odd thing while watching a 1080p clip - it showed two chromas. One that showed NGU, and the other showed Bicubic60 I believe. Why two chroma values on the info? Was that part of the 'let madvr decide' options under NGU settings?

[Asmodian]

NGU low is somewhat debatable in my opinion, but medium and above are quite good.

Different levels of NGU do not impact memory use much, but the GPU buffer size does change memory use a lot. If you want to decrease memory use lowering the GPU buffers to 6 or even lower usually has no downside (six is plenty to always have a frame ready).

You might also disable most trade quality for performance options. However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled.

Yes, the second one is controlled by the chroma option under algorithm quality. Chroma is stored at half the resolution of the luma so it needs scaling twice. The first scaling is much more important, and is set by chroma upscaling, so using NGU med for the first one and Bicubic for the second makes a lot of sense. You also want to put the most effort into the luma quality so madVR automatically picks a reasonable chroma option given the luma option.

[LordX2]

NGU low is somewhat debatable in my opinion, but medium and above are quite good.

Different levels of NGU do not impact memory use much, but the GPU buffer size does change memory use a lot. If you want to decrease memory use lowering the GPU buffers to 6 or even lower usually has no downside (six is plenty to always have a frame ready).

You might also disable most trade quality for performance options. However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled.

Yes, the second one is controlled by the chroma option under algorithm quality. Chroma is stored at half the resolution of the luma so it needs scaling twice. The first scaling is much more important, and is set by chroma upscaling, so using NGU med for the first one and Bicubic for the second makes a lot of sense. You also want to put the most effort into the luma quality so madVR automatically picks a reasonable chroma option given the luma option.

Thank you for the detailed response!

I watched a 2 hour movie, with no pauses, and by the end it showed just two frame drops, and 1 glitch... I never noticed the glitch, however, I did get up to pee.

I don't really care if it records a glitch as long as I can't SEE it stutter on the screen. But the quality looks so damn good this way, I may just have to live with a little stutter here and there. (That will be my 'sacrifice' for quality!)

What are your reasons for: "However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled."

Going to go watch another movie right now (I am nuts) - will update if anything crazy happens - otherwise, thank you everyone for the tips!

[LordX2]

Which NGU should I choose?

For Chroma, and for upscaling?

Saw a 'guide' saying to use Anti-aliasing for Chroma, but Sharp for upscaling. I am currently set to anti-aliasing for both.

Thoughts?

[QBhd]

I am a fan of NGU sharp for everything... this really boils down to personal preference...

QB

[LordX2]

I am a fan of NGU sharp for everything... this really boils down to personal preference...

QB

Are the medium settings between the different NGU's the same stress on the GPU?

E.g. is NGU Anti-aliasing Medium going to pull the same amount of GPU power as NGU Sharp Medium? Given that all the other settings under are set to 'let madvr decide'.

Or is one more intense than another?

[Asmodian]

They are the same.

What are your reasons for: "However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled."

fade in/out deletes a bunch (5) rendered frames from the queue and rerenders them as fast as possible. This often causes glitches.

Scale chroma separately is good because it isn't really lower quality and can save a huge amount of performance, especially when watching 4K at <4K or 8K at 4K.

Which NGU should I choose?

I am a big fan of NGU AA. I always use NGU AA for chroma myself and often use NGU AA for everything. NGU Sharp is also nice and which I think looks best seems to depend on both the source and screen. NGU AA always looks good and while the extra sharpness from NGU Sharp is usually very nice I do notice it look unnatural with some sources.

I think if your pixels are totally invisible the downsides of NGU Sharp are less noticeable while if your pixels are pretty big NGU AA has a more natural look. I am not sure how others feel about this rule of thumb though, it does seem to be mostly preference. Most people do gravitate to NGU AA or NGU Sharp though.

[SamuriHL]

I'm firmly in the ngu AA chroma ngu sharp luma camp myself. Everything I watch is either native 4k or upscaled to 4k. I've not seen too many issues with sharp being overcooked thankfully.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[LordX2]

Ok, updated and played around - landed at:

Chroma - NGU AA HIGH

Luma - NGU Sharp HIGH

The high mark is pushing it for me. Almost completely saturating my GTX 1650 Super. Chroma with Sharp High peaked at 96%, Chroma with AA High peaked at 92%.

I watched the end of avenger endgame as a test - with so much non stop action and SO many characters on the screen at one time, I figured it was a good test to see if there were any lags created by the video card working so hard.

Played through that scene with no officially frame drops or glitches, and no visible micro stutters! So it looks like I have found the theoretical MAX for my system. And at least I know I can drop those NGU's down to medium if I do run into a video that has lag/chop to it.

[Siso]

I wouldn't use NGU High for chroma.

[Asmodian]

I like NGU AA high for chroma.. :(

But I would drop chroma to medium before changing luma.

[SamuriHL]

I'm with Asmodian. I use NGU AA High for chroma, as well. Well, depending on the profile. My 2070 doesn't like it for 720p upscaling. :D But for 1080p and 4K, definitely.

[LordX2]

Thank you for the input! I will change Chroma down to medium first if I run into a file with lag or problems.

As for HDR - the peak NITS setting is defaulted at 200. Should I set this to match the peak output of the projector? Which is roughly 125 at the distance I have it?

[Asmodian]

Theoretically yes, but feel free to use it to adjust the midrange brightness. Lower is brighter but will have less highlight detail.

[Alexkral]

I have noticed that the choice of upscaling for chroma affects the saturation very slightly, so maybe that's the reason why NGU AA looks more natural, because it doesn't look very saturated, but I think that using it the result is less saturated than the source. The differences are minimal anyway, and the end result will obviously still depend on the saturation settings.

@ LordX2

Yes, start testing with 125, but I think that projectors sometimes need values below 100, the latest betas allow them.

[QBhd]

I wouldn't use NGU High for chroma.

LOL... for my 1080p==>4k I use Very High :P

It does drop down to High for 4K content though

QB