madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Siso]

No, I have 1070 and I upscale to 2160p then downscale to 1440p.

Is doubling better than image upscaling in your case?

[Asmodian]

Can you select 12bit with a custom res?

My TV has more banding with >8 bit so I do not want 12 bit, but no, I cannot use 12 bit with custom resolutions. >8 bit is the least important aspect of getting the image to the screen but it should work.

[foobar2000]

isn't 12 bit just 8 bit/10 bit adding zero at the end of signal??

[Zaoshi]

Is doubling better than image upscaling in your case?

Yes. Doubled 720p is exactly 1440p. Quadrupled 480p becomes 1920p so it has to be scaled down. But due to scaling amount NGU makes it much better than other methods.
On the other hand, 1080p probably doesn't benefit much from NGU (I haven't tested), but I use it anyways.

[Siso]

Yes. Doubled 720p is exactly 1440p. Quadrupled 480p becomes 1920p so it has to be scaled down. But due to scaling amount NGU makes it much better than other methods.
On the other hand, 1080p probably doesn't benefit much from NGU (I haven't tested), but I use it anyways.

My question was about 1080p movies. In my case I'm with a 29 inch 2560x1080p monitor. So for me image upscaling is OK, I was wondering if doubling will benefit.

[Zaoshi]

In high bitrate case Antialias loses fine details. Sharp and Standard are much better in this case.
Jinc produces similar results, but edges aren't sharp.
In the end, unless you pixel hunt in screenshots there is no visible difference.

Edit: I tried to attach screenshots but they got scaled down so no reason to attach them.

[Siso]

In high bitrate case Antialias loses fine details. Sharp and Standard are much better in this case.
Jinc produces similar results, but edges aren't sharp.
In the end, unless you pixel hunt in screenshots there is no visible difference.

Attaching images in the forum could take forever to be approved...

[Zaoshi]

Yeh, images also were scaled down. Uploaded them here instead: https://imgur.com/a/CwI2xO5

[Asmodian]

isn't 12 bit just 8 bit/10 bit adding zero at the end of signal??

I thought so too but maybe not. You want 100% to be the same and 111111110000 is not 100% in 12 bit. There are several ways 8 bit could be converted to 12 bit. :(

[x7007]

Potplayer is using Lav filters.
Not sure what seem to be the problem. Downloading few more HEVC encoded videos to test it now.
Edit: nope potplayer still shows everything NV12

I fixed it by disabling all the checkbox on the 8 bit in Lav Video Filter settings.

It still works fine for 8 bit and works with P10 with potplayer.

[Asmodian]

If you need to disable a checkbox to get P10 LAV is probably converting to P10, which is not helpful. You can get madVR to report any format you want if you force LAV to convert to that format but that does not mean you have that format from the decoded video to madVR. LAV will always pick the native, as decoded, video format if it is an allowed output.

[oldpainlesskodi]

The only way to get 12bits with custom timings is calculating your timings with MadVR and using Custom Resolution Utility to add it to your driver.

Go a few pages back, I've explained how to do it and it worked for me and at least one other user.

Yes, I have been using CRU for some time in order to use the newer drivers and get 12bit, as using the Custom Res in Madvr results in 8bit only.

[thighhighs]

Potplayer is using Lav filters.
Not sure what seem to be the problem. Downloading few more HEVC encoded videos to test it now.
Edit: nope potplayer still shows everything NV12
Latest LAV + PP work fine for me, P010 output when needed. But just for test i'm activated video transform filter and get "wrong" NV12 output.
So check PP settings in Filter Control section: Video Transform Filter Usage should be "Disable". Also check filters when you play file (right mouse click - Filters): something wrong if you see here "Built-in Video Codec/Transform".

[direxx]

Hi,

I have a question regarding color space and bit depth. I have a TV with a 10-bit panel and HDR support. I am on Windows 10 1803 with a Radeon RX580 (connected to TV over HDMI 2.0). From what I understand I need to set the output of my graphics card to these options to get HDR support:

- Bit Depth: 10 Bit
- Color Format: YCbCr 4:2:2

In MadVR I set these display properties:

- Native Bit Depth: 10 Bit
- RGB levels: Full PC Levels (0-255)

I know that this setting will result in an additional conversion step. The problem now though is that black levels are totally crushed on my TV, even if I set the RGB level in madVR to "Limited". This cannot be a result from the additional YCbCr conversion, something must be going wrong here. Unfortunately I cannot set the HDMI black level on my TV when the input signal is YCbCr - as far as I understand YCbCr always has the same black level.

The only workaround I found is using RGB Full @8Bit (both in GPU driver and madVR), but then HDR does not work any more. What am I doing wrong?

BTW: Without MadVR I can use the GPU setting "10 Bit with YCbCr 4:2:2" without any blacklevel issues (in e.g. MPC-BE), but I'd like to use madVR for better upscaling and HDR metadata passthrough.


Thanks in advance,
direxx

[Q-the-STORM]

From what I understand I need to set the output of my graphics card to these options to get HDR support:

- Bit Depth: 10 Bit
- Color Format: YCbCr 4:2:2



If you set your refresh rate to 24Hz, you should be able to get 10 bit Full RGB with HDMI 2.0, which should also fix your black crush issue.

[direxx]

If you set your refresh rate to 24Hz, you should be able to get 10 bit Full RGB with HDMI 2.0, which should also fix your black crush issue.

Yeah I know, but I shoot 4K videos with 60fps, so unfortunately that won't help me.

[Warner306]

Hi,

I have a question regarding color space and bit depth. I have a TV with a 10-bit panel and HDR support. I am on Windows 10 1803 with a Radeon RX580 (connected to TV over HDMI 2.0). From what I understand I need to set the output of my graphics card to these options to get HDR support:

- Bit Depth: 10 Bit
- Color Format: YCbCr 4:2:2

In MadVR I set these display properties:

- Native Bit Depth: 10 Bit
- RGB levels: Full PC Levels (0-255)

I know that this setting will result in an additional conversion step. The problem now though is that black levels are totally crushed on my TV, even if I set the RGB level in madVR to "Limited". This cannot be a result from the additional YCbCr conversion, something must be going wrong here. Unfortunately I cannot set the HDMI black level on my TV when the input signal is YCbCr - as far as I understand YCbCr always has the same black level.

The only workaround I found is using RGB Full @8Bit (both in GPU driver and madVR), but then HDR does not work any more. What am I doing wrong?

For scenario #1, you need the following chain:

(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Limited Range 16-235 -> (Display) Output as RGB 16-235

It sounds like the display is incorrect.

If you can't get this working, you can output from madVR at 10-bits Full and RGB 8-bit Full from the GPU and still get HDR passthrough. There is another conversion step (10-bits to 8-bits), but chroma upscaling is maintained.

[zaemon]

Simple question: if D3D11 and FSE are activated (10-bit), does madVR bypass whatever the GPU is set to (8 or 10-bit for that matter)?

[Asmodian]

No it does not. The GPU will convert it if they are not the same.

[zaemon]

No it does not. The GPU will convert it if they are not the same.



Good to know thanks. Problem is that I have the impression that auto framerate/resolution switching does not always select 10-bit bitdepth. I can set it manually for 60 fps but I don’t know if it stays at 10-bit when madVR switches to 24 fps. How to ensure that it always stay at 10-bit?

[direxx]

If you can't get this working, you can output from madVR at 10-bits Full and RGB 8-bit Full from the GPU and still get HDR passthrough. There is another conversion step (10-bits to 8-bits), but chroma upscaling is maintained.

Nice, this is working. :thanks:

I always assumed that when I set my GPU to 8 bit I also need to set MadVR to 8 Bit, but with MadVR@10 Bit I get HDR passthrough - even though my GPU is set to RGB Full@8Bit. And the cool thing is that with anything below 30Hz MadVR/the GPU automatically switches to RGB@10Bit. Very nice.

[huhn]

what ever madVR outputs is not the same to what the GPU outputs.

match bit deep is not wrong here and nvidia will gladly send 8 bit HDR.

[foobar2000]

folks, I have a question, usually our monitors are set to 60hz, while watching 24fps movies, does madvr convert to 60fps since our monitors is 60hz? (monitor faster than the content)

what if, if someone uses Intel's built-in video output, which only supports 4k/24fps through HDMI 1.4, and he's watching 4k 24fps videos, does he get smooth motion, all in all the monitor itself supports 60hz but Intel makes his display stick for 24hz right now (monitor faster than the content, but monitor set to the same fps like the content does)

[huhn]

madVR does not convert to 60 HZ does not always produce a perfect 3:2 judder since his last statement. that's why madVR has smoothmotion to convert it to "60hz" well ~48 hz but what ever to simulate an output that looks like true 24 HZ.

if you are using an HDMI 1.4 limited GPU and you try to use it on a UHD screen that does not support 24 HZ it will not be able to send a signal and will just stay blank.

[mv]

Guys, what possibly could cause presentation glitches (both in statistics and visible by eye) in Full Screen Windowed mode once in a minute or two?
FSE with same settings (upscale and processing) works without issues. Tried changing almost all madVR settings (including processing, upscale, render queue length, DXVA), changed Nvidia driver version but glitches are still there and only in FS Windowed mode.

[Asmodian]

Windows 10 has a new "Focus Assist" feature that needs to be completely disabled. Also f.lux causes presentation glitches.

[el Filou]

Basically any other application that uses the GPU can cause presentation glitches.
You can use Windows' performance monitor tool perfmon.exe to try and look for what is hogging the GPU at regular intervals.

[XMonarchY]

I hope madshi is spending some time on those Photoshop plugins. I can already imagine how awesome it would be to have a de-noise tool that does not leave any or much ringing around objects...

[mv]

Thanks for hints guys!
I've sorted out that remote control software was causing those glitches (even in standby mode with no connected clients). After switching to another software glitches are gone. Thanks again!

BTW
Some time ago I was asking about madvr playback freezes with unstable IPTV UDP streams by my local internet provider. I was able to avoid them by enabling UDP proxy on my router and forming new playlist with http streams instead of UDP. First few seconds of playback are still a painful spectacle with artefacts and glitches but at least it doestn't freeze now.

[Klaus1189]

Thanks for hints guys!
I've sorted out that remote control software was causing those glitches (even in standby mode with no connected clients). After switching to another software glitches are gone. Thanks again!

BTW
Some time ago I was asking about madvr playback freezes with unstable IPTV UDP streams by my local internet provider. I was able to avoid them by enabling UDP proxy on my router and forming new playlist with http streams instead of UDP. First few seconds of playback are still a painful spectacle with artefacts and glitches but at least it doestn't freeze now.

What is the name of the remote control software that caused glitches? Which one is the new software you use now that doesn't cause glitches?

[BluesFanUK]

madVR always puts a big smile onto my face. It's unbelievable nice what NGU (very sharp) can do to relative clean 1080p recordings upscaled to a 2160p screen. It's time to say thank you to madshi for such a nice video renderer. It looks like madshi is also the king of optimization. My 1080 GTX can do NGU doubling to 4k res in combination with edge sharpening, detail enhancement and error diffusion dithering in around 28 ms. That's enough for every 23 or 24 fps movie and even for 29 fps videos.


What is not working for me is the custom resolution functionality on Windows 10 1803.

Yeh, my 980ti can just about manage NGU High, it sounds like a aircraft though after a few mins though....

[mv]

What is the name of the remote control software that caused glitches? Which one is the new software you use now that doesn't cause glitches?

I was using LiteManager and switched to RAdmin for now.

[mclingo]

Yeh, my 980ti... sounds like a aircraft though after a few mins though....


noise is the biggest problem for me now with MADVR, its so bad on my RX 580 i've had to move back down to NGU Low from HIGH, have been getting high with sub 20ms rendering which is pretty good for polaris.

Thought about watercooling my card but to expensive and too much of a faff.

I've done as much soundproofing as I can, you can only go so far before you ambient temps get too high, my PC is now idling about 45 degrees which isnt great.

My previous card, RX 460 used to be very loud and could barely manage NGU LOW though so upgrading to the RX 580 was still a good buy for me as I can get NGU LOW on 40% GPU fan which is pretty much silent.

[huhn]

you should check benchmark to see how a card is performing in term of temps and noise.

i can't remember a card i brought that was even remotely loud.
if it was the r9 270, 760, rx 480 or my 1060 "all" where properly cooled and never good loud at all temp and not problems too.

and i don't even use a case fan...

there is no way other none reverence cooled mid range cards are that bad. try a custom fan curve and don't forget 80 degree is save for a modern GPU. or even lower the power target, under volt and/or under clock the cards.

[Siso]

Regarding chroma upscaling is this true? I saw it in a guide:
"The sharpness of the algorithm used in chroma upscaling section should not exceed the sharpness of the algorithm used in the image upscaling section. It could be the same, but not exceed it."

[nevcairiel]

Regarding chroma upscaling is this true? I saw it in a guide:
"The sharpness of the algorithm used in chroma upscaling section should not exceed the sharpness of the algorithm used in the image upscaling section. It could be the same, but not exceed it."

Its basically pointless to use a sharper chroma scaler then Luma. If you have processing power to spare, use a better Luma scaler instead.

[Siso]

Its basically pointless to use a sharper chroma scaler then Luma. If you have processing power to spare, use a better Luma scaler instead.

Thank you for the info. In my case I can't use anything higher than Jinc for luma upscaling.

[huhn]

while i totally agree that you should not use processing intensive scaler on chroma if you have to scale luma. but i disagree on the sharpness.

i personally use super XBR 125-150 on chroma and super XBR 100 on image scaling.

[Siso]

while i totally agree that you should not use processing intensive scaler on chroma if you have to scale luma. but i disagree on the sharpness.

i personally use super XBR 125-150 on chroma and super XBR 100 on image scaling.

I guess you use image doubling, right? I'm on 2560x1080p monitor watching 1080p movies, and I see no point in using image doubling, image upscaling imho is enough.

[huhn]

even on a 1440p screen doubling can be cheaper.

ngu AA low and super xbr maybe cheaper and may give you better results.

but yes i'm doubling and without doubling i personally pref super xbr 100 for chroma.

[Siso]

That may be true, but after the doubling is done, it has to downscale it.

[huhn]

yes it have to be but even then it doesn't mean it is more expensive.
2x scaler are so good in madVR that is may be worth it and downscaling has a very very high level in madVR.

[Siso]

yes it have to be but even then it doesn't mean it is more expensive.
2x scaler are so good in madVR that is may be worth it and downscaling has a very very high level in madVR.

I'll do some testing with the doubling, is SSIM 1D 100%+ scale in linear light and AR-relaxed a good downscaler?

[foobar2000]

Madshi says GTX 1050 = underpowered with latest Madvr setting, which means RTX 2080Ti is a must, haha

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-62.html#post56716594

[mclingo]

... never good loud at all temp and not problems too.
s.

my card nearly hits nearly 50 decibels at full load which is apparently normal for this card, i've never hard a card thats quiet at full load though, pushing that much air has to make a decent amount of noise.

Mine is silent up to about 60% fan

[Manni]

Madshi says GTX 1050 = underpowered with latest Madvr setting, which means RTX 2080Ti is a must, haha

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-62.html#post56716594

Come on, it's a non-optimized test build with a bug (no x64 support), don't be ridiculous! It's been fixed in build 10, two posts down (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-62.html#post56716852). Please don't comment here about the experimental work being undergone there. Anyone installing these test builds should understand that they are a work in progress. Post there if you can contribute, otherwise wait for the next official build and discuss it here.

[blu3wh0]

Is the HDR -> SDR tone-mapping work done in the other thread beneficial for use on an LG B7 in HDR mode (bt. 2020, ~750 nit max, etc.)? Or is it only useful for converting to rec 709 and ~120 nit?

[foobar2000]

Come on, it's a non-optimized test build with a bug (no x64 support), don't be ridiculous! It's been fixed in build 10, two posts down (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-62.html#post56716852). Please don't comment here about the experimental work being undergone there. Anyone installing these test builds should understand that they are a work in progress. Post there if you can contribute, otherwise wait for the next official build and discuss it here.

actually currently no video card could run the highest setting of madvr-upscaling, like upscaling a 480p video to 4k, even the 1080ti drops a lot frames, my friend tests it with a common anime video (x264, 500MB, 20mins)

[Warner306]

Is the HDR -> SDR tone-mapping work done in the other thread beneficial for use on an LG B7 in HDR mode (bt. 2020, ~750 nit max, etc.)? Or is it only useful for converting to rec 709 and ~120 nit?

You can set madVR to tone map and then pass the result to the display in PQ with HDR metadata. But you would have to find a target nits that disables the display's own tone mapping. And, even then, the display might still alter the input in unwanted ways. You would have to experiment with this setting in the hdr menu (process by pixel shader math).

HDR -> SDR can output to any brightness or color gamut. The problem is your SDR calibration would have to balance both formats. SDR is most accurate close to 100 nits, while HDR is most accurate close to 1,000 or 4,000 nits. So it isn't easy to balance the two with a reasonably bright display.

[Warner306]

noise is the biggest problem for me now with MADVR, its so bad on my RX 580 i've had to move back down to NGU Low from HIGH, have been getting high with sub 20ms rendering which is pretty good for polaris.

Thought about watercooling my card but to expensive and too much of a faff.

I've done as much soundproofing as I can, you can only go so far before you ambient temps get too high, my PC is now idling about 45 degrees which isnt great.

A noisy fan is common with a budget card. I made this mistake once and wouldn't make it again. I can't believe how bad the fans are on some GPUs. The gaming models can be nearly silent under load.

Try installing MSI Afterburner and creating a custom fan curve. You can keep the fan at idle or at a low speed until the GPU becomes very hot. If the card never gets past this temperature with your desired settings, then you don't have to worry about excessive cooling, which the default fan profile will usually do.