madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Andy o]

The video post-processing options are what doesn't affect madVR. The desktop color options affect everything. What "white" option are you talking about?

[THX-UltraII]

The video post-processing options are what doesn't affect madVR. The desktop color options affect everything. What "white" option are you talking about?

ATI CCC, Video, Video Settings, Brighter Whites

You think this enhanced setting is ok in my projector?

[THX-UltraII]

Also just played a movie and during a 2 hour movie 10 frames where dropped, no delayed frames and no presentation glitches. Is this good?

I also see the information:
h264, 8 bit, 4:2:0 -> YV12, 8 bit, 4:2:0.
Does this mean I playback in highgest possible quality?

[Andy o]

ATI CCC, Video, Video Settings, Brighter Whites

You think this enhanced setting is ok in my projector?

When I was using the 5770 I didn't find that it made a difference, but in any case, I had pretty much all but inverse telecine and vector adaptive deinterlacing disabled (cause I still used the video options for MC and the postprocessing options are horrible anyway).

[Andy o]

Also just played a movie and during a 2 hour movie 10 frames where dropped, no delayed frames and no presentation glitches. Is this good?

I also see the information:
h264, 8 bit, 4:2:0 -> YV12, 8 bit, 4:2:0.
Does this mean I playback in highgest possible quality?

That's the decoder's output into madVR if I'm not mistaken. That just basically is telling you that madVR is doing the RGB conversion which generally speaking is the best option.

[THX-UltraII]

ok thxz

Lets move on to the next question :)

madVR has a Display Modes menu where I can list all display modes madVR may switch to. Wht does this mean? Is madVR able to change my reslotion to eg. 1920x1080@25 when I play PAL content and switch to 1920x1080@29,97 when playing TV content?

Also there s a box I can check that says treat 25p movies as 24p. I use ReClock and I assume this box will only work when NOT bitstreaming? Because the author of ReClock always told in the past that it is simply not possible to play 25fps material @23,976 when you send the audio digital (bitsteam).

[pirlouy]

THX-UltraII, open your own thread please. Think about Madshi when he'll have to read all the thread...

[dansrfe]

THX-UltraII, open your own thread please. Think about Madshi when he'll have to read all the thread...

Yeah I agree...

[BeNooL]

And another strange thing that I just noticed:

When I choose RGB Full in the ATI ccc my computer (ATI ccc) is switching back automatically to YCbCr 4:4:4 Pixel Format after 30 seconds or so......

EDIT: Switches back to 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4

Yes ATI CCC is a nightmare.

One thing that seems to help to lock Pixel format is to change resolution right after you change the Pixel format.

[Neeto]

Yes ATI CCC is a nightmare.

One thing that seems to help to lock Pixel format is to change resolution right after you change the Pixel format.

It took me a while to find this,

1. Stop AMD external event service,
2. disable GPU scaling
3. change Pixel setting settings,
4. reboot and
5. enable service

[THX-UltraII]

It took me a while to find this,

1. Stop AMD external event service,
2. disable GPU scaling
3. change Pixel setting settings,
4. reboot and
5. enable service

thxz. What just worked for me:

- Change Pixel settings and reboot within 30 seconds. After reboot the Pixel setting does not switch back anymore.

[JarrettH]

What does 'run presentation in a separate thread' and 'limit rendering times to avoid glitches' do exactly?

I get quite a lot of presentation glitches while playing back DVDs. Every 5 min or so the motion will be noticeably choppy for a few seconds. Of those two options, the latter reduced the amount of glitches much more.

[golagoda]

What does 'run presentation in a separate thread' and 'limit rendering times to avoid glitches' do exactly?

I get quite a lot of presentation glitches while playing back DVDs. Every 5 min or so the motion will be noticeably choppy for a few seconds. Of those two options, the latter reduced the amount of glitches much more.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Thread_%28computer_science%29

Edit: Just some settings you might want to try messing around with.. they helped with playback for me.

I've noticed personally that in rendering -> Exclusive mode settings unchecking delay switch to exclusive mode and increasing the amount for 'how many video frames shall be presented in advance' helps with playback immensely, so I'd recommend messing around with those a bit to see what works better for you.

In rendering -> windowed mode settings increasing 'how many backbuffers shall be used' may also help, but if I remember correctly I only did it by one so try changing that and see how it works out.

I also noticed that for the 'when and how shall the GPU be flushed:' changing flush to 'flush & wait (sleep)' in the 2nd drop down list in windowed mode settings and exclusive mode settings helps.

[JarrettH]

Thanks for the tips golagoda :cool:

Do you mean to change windowed and exclusive to:

flush & wait (sleep)
flush & wait (sleep)
don't flush
don't flush

By default "...after intermediate render steps" is Flush

[golagoda]

Thanks for the tips golagoda :cool:

Do you mean to change windowed and exclusive to:

flush & wait (sleep)
flush & wait (sleep)
don't flush
don't flush

By default "...after intermediate render steps" is Flush
I have flush for the first one.. I probably should have tried explaining it a bit better but I've always failed at writing so here are screenshots of my settings that work extremely well for me at least, and I'm on a crappy computer.

General settings - http://i.imgur.com/wVV62.jpg (The 'delay playback until render queue is full' setting would probably help you more if it was enabled but I have it disabled.)

Exclusive mode - http://i.imgur.com/pN5f9.jpg ( Having 'present several frames in advance' set to disabled would also probably help you more if it was disabled but I have it enabled.)

Windowed mode - http://i.imgur.com/DcMaJ.jpg

I also use LAV CUVID (Which has since been merged into LAVFilters) since I have a Nvidia GPU which helps immensely, so if you aren't using that already and have a Nvidia GPU definitely use that.

[JarrettH]

What I've done...

Backbuffers 3 --> 4

Frames presented in advance 4 --> 6

enabled: 'limit rendering times to avoid glitches'

This seems to have eliminated 95% of presentation glitches.
Why is enabling that certain option not recommended? I have to wonder :p

Using a GT240 (GDDR5) fyi

[6233638]

What I've done...

Backbuffers 3 --> 4

Frames presented in advance 4 --> 6

enabled: 'limit redering times to avoid glitches'

This seems to have eliminated 95% of presentation glitches.
Why is enabling that certain option not recommended? I have to wonder :p

Using a GT240 (GDDR5) fyiAs far as I know, no-one has reported that option causing problems with playback, at least on Nvidia systems. (don't know that anyone with AMD has tried it)

I posted the question about whether it should be enabled by default before, but I think it got overlooked.

Because I have plenty of RAM, I just set the maximum number of buffers available, and that option combined with the DX11 rendering path fixed all the presentation glitches for me.


I used to have to mess around with the flush settings on my old build (Nvidia 9400) to get smooth performance, but since the exclusive mode was added (and a few builds later) the default settings seem to work best. Before the "limit rendering times" option was added, the flush settings did nothing to fix the presentation glitches with my GTX570.

[nevcairiel]

I actually get glitches if i use 16 buffers, 12 seems to be the sweet spot for me right now.
Combined with "use a separate device for presentation" (but not DX11), flushing: dont/flush/flush/dont and "limit rendering times to avoid glitches", its pretty much perfect now. :)

Default settings used to glitch on non-matched refresh rates, be it 25p at 50Hz, or even 24p at 60Hz, but these are perfect.

The only problem i have right now is that after playing some files consecutively without closign the player, exclusive mode fails. Restarting the player fixes it ...

This is on a GTS450

[SamuriHL]

I'll have to try that, Nev. I'm still getting some glitches with my settings on my 450. Sounds like you found the "magic". :)

[Andy o]

I'm on a GTX460 768MB, with 258 drivers Win 7-64. I have to enable "limit rendering times" and "overshoot max frame latency" to avoid glitches, but if I enable "run presentation on a separate thread", I get a lot of dropped frames after seeking sometimes. Luckily the other two settings are sufficient to avoid glitches for most content. On some content though (it was a 30p file played at 60Hz) my present queue drops slowly and after that I still had periodic glitches, until I enabled D3D11 and the present queue stays full then.

[nevcairiel]

D3D11 works for playback for me as well, however its somewhat unusable because exiting FSE doesnt re-draw the desktop or the player properly.

I've had the queues dropping low problem as well with some settings, but the current setup is working just nice. :)

[dansrfe]

madshi needs to come back and read the thread...way too much has happened.

[Thunderbolt8]

Im sure hes reading, but just not answering or doing any more than making notes

[QBhd]

The only problem i have right now is that after playing some files consecutively without closign the player, exclusive mode fails. Restarting the player fixes it ...



I have the exact same thing... it also seems to always happen after playing a SD AVI and then switching to a 720p MKV. But like you it also happens after 3 or more 720p MKV's are played back to back to back...

QB

[ryrynz]

madshi needs to come back and read the thread...way too much has happened.

He's active in other threads, so it's more than likely as Thunderbolt has suggested.

[QBhd]

He's active in other threads, so it's more than likely as Thunderbolt has suggested.

Active?? 7 posts in September and the last one 13 days ago. I don't think that's active. But he has a life and things need to get done. I'm just looking forward to when he comes back. He and nev rock :)

QB

[ryrynz]

He's certainly posting in other threads more than here and he's not dead so that counts as active to me ;)
Perhaps your interpretation of active is a lot more active than mine, but when you've seen projects go months or years without developer input your view on what's active or not changes a lot!
Anyway best not to let this thread degenerate into chaos due to a few measly weeks without a post from Madshi, let us remain calm :P

I'm just looking forward to when he comes back. He and nev rock :) QB

Agreed, they've really improved the HTPC experience a lot, I would be happy to pay for their software.

[jmone]

I actually get glitches if i use 16 buffers, 12 seems to be the sweet spot for me right now.
Combined with "use a separate device for presentation" (but not DX11), flushing: dont/flush/flush/dont and "limit rendering times to avoid glitches", its pretty much perfect now. :)

Default settings used to glitch on non-matched refresh rates, be it 25p at 50Hz, or even 24p at 60Hz, but these are perfect.

The only problem i have right now is that after playing some files consecutively without closign the player, exclusive mode fails. Restarting the player fixes it ...

This is on a GTS450

+1 - what is the story of Exclusive Mode fail.... I can not seem to eliminate it. That said I also find that enabling "delay playback start until render queue is full" helps when it falls back to windowed mode.

[golagoda]

Hmm... while we're somewhat on the topic of settings what scaling algorithms do you all use for madVR?

I'm currently trying out 'SoftCubic' with softness set to 60 for each option, I honestly don't notice that much difference between different scaling algorithms and haven't tested it out too much but there's always room for improvement and testing out other settings has helped me find ways to improve playback greatly, for example the settings nev said earlier work amazingly :p

[nevcairiel]

I use Lanczos 4-taps for both Luma variants, and SoftCubic 60 for Chroma.
Lanczos produces a bit sharper image when watching SD content, which i've been doing alot lately.

[SamuriHL]

I use Lanczos 4-taps for both Luma variants, and SoftCubic 60 for Chroma.
Lanczos produces a bit sharper image when watching SD content, which i've been doing alot lately.

That's what I've been using as well.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[QBhd]

I was using the defaults and it seemed the best, but I will give a go at the SoftCubic 60 for Luma and see if it makes a difference since I have not tried changing just that one alone.

QB

[dansrfe]

I user Softcubic 60 for chroma and Spline 4 taps for luma up/down scale.

[naoan]

I like softcubic 100 for chroma upsampling and spline36 (3 taps) for luma up/downsampling.

[Rain1]

I actually get glitches if i use 16 buffers, 12 seems to be the sweet spot for me right now.
Combined with "use a separate device for presentation" (but not DX11), flushing: dont/flush/flush/dont and "limit rendering times to avoid glitches", its pretty much perfect now. :)

Default settings used to glitch on non-matched refresh rates, be it 25p at 50Hz, or even 24p at 60Hz, but these are perfect.

This is on a GTS450

Thanks for your experiment with the setting. I tried yours & it works nicely !

[nand chan]

I use spline 4 taps for luma upscaling and Mitchell-Netravali for chroma.

I tested them all a while back for luma upscaling on 720p content and spline4 is simply the best in my opinion - all of the filters except for lanczos and spline produce noticeable blurriness which is bad when watching anime, and stuff like eg. small signs and text is much sharper and clearer when using lanczos/spline, and the ringing lanczos produces is a bit too noticeable, so I prefer spline.

[kennae]

I use spline 4 taps for luma upscaling and Mitchell-Netravali for chroma.

I tested them all a while back for luma upscaling on 720p content and spline4 is simply the best in my opinion - all of the filters except for lanczos and spline produce noticeable blurriness which is bad when watching anime, and stuff like eg. small signs and text is much sharper and clearer when using lanczos/spline, and the ringing lanczos produces is a bit too noticeable, so I prefer spline.

When you first said you use Mitchell-Netravali for chroma I tested it and havent changed since. I love the quality.

[JarrettH]

I like Mitchell for Luma Upscaling and Bucubic 75 for Chroma. I think that also agrees with 6233638. Catmull works well for Luma Upscaling too, just noticeably more ringing. I play a lot of SD movies myself, and personally, since the resolution isn't there to begin with I'd rather end up with a satisfying picture. So Mitchell for SD, Catmull for HD :cool:

[nand chan]

With the MPC-HC subtitle position bug now fixed (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1530243#post1530243), I'm going to renew interest in the issue of subtitles not being color corrected (http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2249/colorsubs.png).

This is the current most major problem with the internal subtitle renderer - the fact that VSFilter simply blends in with the video better because subtitles are color corrected along with the video, where as something like gamut mapping or gamma correction makes subtitles stand out.

If I understand things correctly, video content gets upscaled / converted etc. before all color management happens, and the subtitles simply get rendered on at the end. So it can't possible hurt to simply render the subtitles before applying color management and gamma correction, right? There's no information to destroy, after all - no spatial processing is performed after RGB conversion.

[Nevilne]

Why do you ask madshi to fix mpc-hc problem??

[pankov]

Nevline,
what exactly do you call a "mpc-hc problem"?
What nand chan is asking for makes sense to me even if it's not that important for most of the HTPC users because the problem is mostly/only visible on anime where they use very advanced subtitle rendering. For the rest, like me, the subs are just "simple white letters" rendered over the movie and if the white is not exactly white I can live with it.

[pirlouy]

I think Nevilne meant the color problem was a MPC-HC subtitle renderer, and Madshi is not interested in fixing it (especially if he is very buggy).
But maybe nand chan meant it is a madVR bug.

I'm a good mediator. :D

[Nevilne]

Traditional way of handling SSA subtitles is to render subtitles on video image in-between decoder and renderer
(vsfilter, ffdshow)

Subtitles can also be rendered on vmr surface independently from video image.
This gives some advantages such as untouched source, desktop subtitle resolution even for sd video,
and some drawbacks, like subtitle flicker and not liking every renderer.

Afaik rendering SSA like that is only possible with mpc-hc and "borrowed" code from mpc-hc (kmplayer, potplayer)

My point is that I assume that renderer is not responsible for content outside picture from decoder, like various osd content, player ui and vmr subtitles (though I'm probably wrong because I remember madshi talking about this)

____
edit: we're over 500 pages, madvr ftw!

[pankov]

yes, you are correct in general, but the problem happens when the renderer performs color correction of the picture only from the decoder and not from the subtitles input pin. This results in different colors of the subs and the image bellow. As I said before it's not a problem with normal subs but could be very ugly with complex SSA subs that have specially designed backgrounds that should exactly match the color from the video frame from the decoder.
I hope now you understand what nand chan is talking about.

[Nevilne]

I agree and I use vmr subtitles as well, I just don't see it as top priority over other madvr improvements.

[pankov]

I don't see it as priority too - I was just trying to clear nand chan's request
:)

[nand chan]

I think Nevilne meant the color problem was a MPC-HC subtitle renderer, and Madshi is not interested in fixing it (especially if he is very buggy).
But maybe nand chan meant it is a madVR bug.

I'm a good mediator. :D

It's a bug with madVR as has been mentioned earlier - the subs are passed directly to madVR in RGB32 format, and madVR renders them on top of the video.

MPC-HC doesn't touch the video stream at all. madVR is the component that should be color correcting the subtitles it gets from MPC-HC, since madVR is also the component that color corrects the rest of video. Color correction is part of the rendering process.

It may not be a high priority for others, but it's probably a one line change for madshi (or otherwise just a copy paste).

You could also provide a checkbox to turn it on in the tweaks section.

[TheShadowRunner]

Hi madshi,
I sometimes experience a madVR bug that completely freezes ZP. I can't replicate it with the other renderers (VMR9/EVR).
It happens after a frequency switch while media playback is starting, using madVR's internal frequency switcher. (tried madVR switching, manual switching, ReClock switching, makes no difference..).

Using ZP8 prefinal 23 + latest madVR (v0.74), default settings.
XP SP3/ nVidia 285.38

What happens is: I open media, madVR detects framerate and changes frequency accordingly (from 720p60 to 720p24 with this test media). Now under 720p24, sometimes interacting with ZP's control bar (seeking media) will completely freeze the app.
Right before this happens, the ZP control bar (fullscreen) is drawn slowly onto the screen, it lags a lot.
It happens with any video stream/decoder. My test video is a simple XVID .avi file and I could reproduce the issue with ffdshow, LAV Video or even standalone Xvid decoder.

It seems to happen only when ZP's option "Display OSD through madVR's OSD API" is disabled.

How to reproduce:

1. In ZP settings, at "Playback" > "Video", disable "Display OSD through madVR's OSD API"
(Note: the "Video covers entire display area" option and madVR's FSE feature have NO impact on this bug, it happens regardless if FSE is totally disabled in madVR or not.)

2. Start playing a video, exemple: an XVID .avi file (decoded by ffdshow or LAV.. same results)

3. While the movie is playing, switch the frequency of the display. (exemple 720p60 to 720p50 or 24)

4. Now in ZP, go fullscreen and bring the control bar.

5. More often than not at this point the issue can be seen: the control bar is drawn slowly onto the screen, you can see its skin elements being drawn one by one (http://videoff7.free.fr/madvr_zp__bad.avi).
If you scroll the control bar at this point, for say 20 seconds, it will completely freeze ZP.
Killing the ZP process manually is needed.

If after going fullscreen the control bar is OK for you, please switch the frequency a couple times more [while movie is playing] to try and reproduce the issue, for exemple go back to 720p60 and then again to 720p50 or 24), then go in fullscreen and bring the control bar again to see.

It happens not _always_, but often enough to be really annoying. XD

A few things that I found while testing:
-It only happens with madVR, couldn't fault the other renderers.
-It seems to only happen when ZP's "Display OSD through madVR's OSD API" disabled.
-It happens regardless of video decoder.
-It happens regardless if ZP "resumes media playback from last point" or not.
-When the control bar/ZP is in this weird slow state, if I just close and restart media playback (not ZP !) or open another media, the bug disappears (no more laggy ZP/freeze due).
-It happens regardless if the frequency is switched manually (via shortcuts, nv control panel), or automatically (Reclock or madVR's internal frequency switcher).
-I tried down to madVR build 050, the issue is present too.

Sorry for the length, it's one of those annoying ones to reproduce :rolleyes:

I enclose a madVR DEBUG log.
For this log, I just open ZP, bring it fullscreen and start media playback. After madVR switches the frequency, I bring the ZP control bar and scroll for 3 few seconds. ZP freezes completely. The log stops after I killed ZP process manually. Total time around 8 seconds.

I hope you can look into it and hopefully it won't be hard to track down! :scared:
Later,

TSR

Edit: alternative link for the log (http://videoff7.free.fr/madVR_freeze_ZP - log.zip).

[Thunderbolt8]

better upload the log elsewhere, sometimes it can take quite long until stuff gets approved

[TheShadowRunner]

better upload the log elsewhere, sometimes it can take quite long until stuff gets approved
Thanks, could help, although I'm not sure madshi follows the thread at all XD