madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Axelpowa]

Yeah, DXVA2 native sucks. It is a little faster though. :(

Edit: sneaker_ger's point is important, D3D11 Native decoding is better than DXVA2 Native and also does not copyback, give it a try.

Hi Asmodian,

Could please elaborate a bit more about this?

What are the advantages from copy back over native? I'm still trying to learn about this and reading through Google is a bit confusing.

If I did understand correctly, with copy back you can use options in madvr that other way are not having any effect?

Also lav nightly with D3D11 is better than native?

I have a gtx 1080 msi armor gpu.

Regards!

[Asmodian]

DXVA2 Native decoding blurs the chroma when it transfers to madVR but DXVA2 copyback does not. D3D11 native does not have this problem.

All native decoding methods skip madVR's CPU based algorithms because the video stays on the GPU after decoding; it is not copied back to system memory. madVR only has a few CPU based algorithms, IVTC/Film deinterlacing and cropping black bars, and with modern video sources these usually aren't needed.

[Axelpowa]

DXVA2 Native decoding blurs the chroma when it transfers to madVR but DXVA2 copyback does not. D3D11 native does not have this problem.

All native decoding methods skip madVR's CPU based algorithms because the video stays on the GPU after decoding; it is not copied back to system memory. madVR only has a few CPU based algorithms, IVTC/Film deinterlacing and cropping black bars, and with modern video sources these usually aren't needed.

Many thanks! I will stick with copy back then.

Regards!

[varekai]

DXVA2 Native decoding blurs the chroma when it transfers to madVR but DXVA2 copyback does not. D3D11 native does not have this problem.

All native decoding methods skip madVR's CPU based algorithms because the video stays on the GPU after decoding; it is not copied back to system memory. madVR only has a few CPU based algorithms, IVTC/Film deinterlacing and cropping black bars, and with modern video sources these usually aren't needed.
So would I be better off disabling "Hardware acceleration (DXVA) settings" -->" Use DXVA" --> "Use D3D11 DXVA first"?
Using PotPlayer + madVR.
Thinking that it would be better to let madVR do all the rendering job?

Best regards

[stefanelli73]

I have an AMD RX480 video card, I use JRIVER media player and I use Windows 10 operating system, in VIDEO LAVs if I use COPY-BACK during a movie I have several dropped frames, while with Windows 8 it did not happen, instead with NATIVE 0 dropped frames; I also noticed that D3D11 does not decode well interlaced material, such as music concerts that are all at 1080i60.
Someone could tell me why?

[mclingo]

I have an AMD RX480 video card, I use JRIVER media player and I use Windows 10 operating system, in VIDEO LAVs if I use COPY-BACK during a movie I have several dropped frames, while with Windows 8 it did not happen, instead with NATIVE 0 dropped frames; I also noticed that D3D11 does not decode well interlaced material, such as music concerts that are all at 1080i60.
Someone could tell me why?

Are you playing movies at their native refresh rate or at 60hz, assuming your display is 60hz?

[nussman]

I also noticed that D3D11 does not decode well interlaced material, such as music concerts that are all at 1080i60.
Someone could tell me why?
Deinterlacing via D3D11 is not supported yet. We have to wait until madshi find some time to add this.

No sure about the frame drops with dxva copy back, but I noticed that my system is not fast enough for 4K HEVC with dxva copyback (works fine with dxva native).

[stefanelli73]

Are you playing movies at their native refresh rate or at 60hz, assuming your display is 60hz?

Yes native refresh 23,96....I have an EPSON 9300 videoprojector

[mclingo]

Yes native refresh 23,96....I have an EPSON 9300 videoprojector

so it does this even with 23,976 movies?

Do you have 1080p23 included in your Display modes in MADVR?

take a screen shot of your CONTROL+J screen.

[aufkrawall]

Do you get the same issue with DXVA2 copy-back or D3D11 decoding in LAV? DXVA2 native decoding is known to damage quality on Nvidia GPUs (maybe Intel has issues too?).
I just gave DXVA2 native a quick try on AMD (Polaris, Windows 10 CU2): I can confirm the 10 bit banding issues there as well.

Just let DXVA2 depart in peace, it doesn't fit in the post-EVR times...

[mclingo]

anyone else getting block corruption when skipping through a movie using D3D11? May just affect AMD RX models though or just me. I have had this issue before and quite badly, early driver versions for my RX480 had this problem for months before getting fixed.

No issues with copy back though which is why i'm still using that.

[aufkrawall]

.ts container? It's not seeking friendly, I can't confirm such an issue with mkv.

[mclingo]

no, mkv's - i'm on quite an old driver though, 17.10.2 as AMD havent written a stable driver for the last 4 versions, each one randomly hangs my machine.

[Asmodian]

So would I be better off disabling "Hardware acceleration (DXVA) settings" -->" Use DXVA" --> "Use D3D11 DXVA first"?
Using PotPlayer + madVR.
Thinking that it would be better to let madVR do all the rendering job?


You want D3D11 DXVA if you use DXVA at all. madVR needs decoded video to start with but it likes software decoding or copyback more than native. None of those PopPlayer options mention native or copyback, I don't know what PotPlayer is doing. :p

[varekai]

You want D3D11 DXVA if you use DXVA at all. madVR needs decoded video to start with but it likes software decoding or copyback more than native. None of those PopPlayer options mention native or copyback, I don't know what PotPlayer is doing. :pThanks for the info, appreciate it!
Using a Nvidia GeForce GTX 960 4GB on 2 2560x1440 displays and a Panasonic TV 1080p 1920x1060.
Windows 7.
I'll try these new settings and see what results I get.
--------------------------
From PotPlayer settings:
Filters --> Use Built-in DXVA Video Decoder
Manage Filters --> Built-in codec/DXVA settings --> Hardware acceleration (DXVA) settings --> Use DXVA --> Use D3D11 DXVA first
DXVA2 Copyback: D3D9: Auto
--------------------------

[-Hitman-]

I just gave DXVA2 native a quick try on AMD (Polaris, Windows 10 CU2): I can confirm the 10 bit banding issues there as well.

Same here - Windows 10 CU2 v1709.


anyone else getting block corruption when skipping through a movie using D3D11?

No issues with copy back though which is why i'm still using that.

No problems with .mkv on intel 630 - D3D11.

Anyone explain why DXVA copy-back loses tons of frames and has pretty bad stutter with 4k (frame rate is correct)?

[nussman]

Did you check CPU load with dxva copy-back?

[mclingo]

[QUOTE=-Hitman-;1832532]Hi, I've found a serious banding issue (scenes with white clouds show a pink posterization/banding effect) with UHD HDR movies, /QUOTE]


No banding here for me, ive checked that particular scene on both the full HDR remux and the SDr conversion that are knocking about on torrents, neither shows anything in that scene for me.

Was this defo a full remux you were viewing?, are you passing HDR through to your TV or converting in MAVR?

WIn10
RX550
copyback or D3D11
4k 4:2:0 - havent tried 4:4:4 full RGB.

[Asmodian]

Anyone explain why DXVA copy-back loses tons of frames and has pretty bad stutter with 4k (frame rate is correct)?

Copyback needs to copy the entire raw video data from GPU memory space to CPU memory space and Intel's iGPUs don't have very much memory bandwidth, 10 bit 4Kp60 is 14.93 Gbps (~1.9GB/s). 128 bit (dual channel) DDR4 2400 is only around 35 GB/s. Even the 2GB 1050 has 112 GB/s and PCIe 3.0 x16 has 15.8 GB/s.

[MS-DOS]

DXVA2 Native decoding blurs the chroma when it transfers to madVR but DXVA2 copyback does not.
That's only true for Nvidia and Intel GPUs.

[Asmodian]

That's only true for Nvidia and Intel GPUs.

I just gave DXVA2 native a quick try on AMD (Polaris, Windows 10 CU2): I can confirm the 10 bit banding issues there as well.

Just let DXVA2 depart in peace, it doesn't fit in the post-EVR times...

I am not sure AMD is free from problems, but I think you are correct when using with 8-bit video. Also, the poster had an Nvidia GPU and the quote was from a reply to someone with an Intel GPU probably playing 10-bit HEVC. :)

[MS-DOS]

aufkrawall

I'd be grateful for a 10 bit HEVC sample where you see banding while doing native DXVA2.

[stefanelli73]

so it does this even with 23,976 movies?

Do you have 1080p23 included in your Display modes in MADVR?

take a screen shot of your CONTROL+J screen.

Yes 1080p23, 1080p24, etc...

[mclingo]

Yes 1080p23, 1080p24, etc...

its worth ruling out JRIVER, install MPC-HC, it has latest LAVs.

Set decoder to copy back and renderer to MADVR, set MPC to full screen and try again.

post your CONTROL+J screen

[el Filou]

Hi madshi, I have a question about a note in the config GUI: next to "measure each frame's peak luminance" for HDR, it says: "(Does not work with DXVA scaling / decoding)". Is that still valid?
I'm using DXVA11 Native decoding for 2160p, and if I enable ShowRenderSteps, it does show a step 'measure peak luminance'.
Who's right, the config GUI or the OSD?

[stefanelli73]

its worth ruling out JRIVER, install MPC-HC, it has latest LAVs.

Set decoder to copy back and renderer to MADVR, set MPC to full screen and try again.

post your CONTROL+J screen

I installed the last LAV also in JRIVER

[aufkrawall]

aufkrawall

I'd be grateful for a 10 bit HEVC sample where you see banding while doing native DXVA2.
Just take anything with a gradient.
https://abload.de/thumb/d3d11vax2s3l.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=d3d11vax2s3l.png) https://abload.de/thumb/dxva275sbw.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=dxva275sbw.png)

It even manipulates colors, pure trash.

[-Hitman-]

Did you check CPU load with dxva copy-back?

Yes, well below 5% on most cores.



No banding here for me, ive checked that particular scene on both the full HDR remux and the SDr conversion that are knocking about on torrents, neither shows anything in that scene for me.

Was this defo a full remux you were viewing?, are you passing HDR through to your TV or converting in MAVR?

WIn10
RX550
copyback or D3D11
4k 4:2:0 - havent tried 4:4:4 full RGB.

Not a re-mux but a complete/untouched rip image, see previous Ctrl+J image I uploaded - (OS HDR) windows enabled HDR, Madvr set to - HDR passthrough.


Copyback needs to copy the entire raw video data from GPU memory space to CPU memory space and Intel's iGPUs don't have very much memory bandwidth, 10 bit 4Kp60 is 14.93 Gbps (~1.9GB/s). 128 bit (dual channel) DDR4 2400 is only around 35 GB/s. Even the 2GB 1050 has 112 GB/s and PCIe 3.0 x16 has 15.8 GB/s.

Ah ok, thanks for the info, that'll be why.

[Arm3nian]

Is the method to using madVR to take a screenshot dependent on the media player? I'm using Alt + I (which is the default shortcut) on mpc-be, is this the correct way?

I have a 4k HDR REC. 2020 file and saving 200% view as png crashes. It works with bmp. Saving 300% view as bmp just maxes out my memory (16GB), then drops to 100MB and madVR crashes saying it can't write to a certain address. Obviously 3x 4k is dumb but should it work?

[zapatista]

Hi Madshi,

re: down-converting 4k (10 bit) video to 1080 (10 bit)

can you plz comment if your program converts 4k 4.2.0 YUV (10 bit ) to 4k 4.4.4 RGB before downscaling it to 1080 10bit RGB ? (eg doing the RGB conversion first while still in 4k ).
the purpose would be to maintain a larger part of the much higher chroma and luma information from the 4k file (@ 4.2.0 YUV in 4k ) in the conversion process to 1080p video (@ 4.4.4 RGB)

if yes, do i need to use any specific settings in madvr to ensure this occurs correctly ? (other then setting my ati control panel to output RGB 4.4.4 over the HDMI video output to my display).

[huhn]

madVR can do both.
it can with a trade for quality only shift the chroma by half a subpixel or it can first upscale the chroma channel to 4:4:4 and than downscale (better quality)

[mbordas]

madshi, have you ever considered the idea of writing a book on video processing and MadVR?

It might save you time in the long run, by answering the next 5K posts to this forum before they're asked :)

[Asmodian]

Most of the next 5K posts have already been answered. How many people would actually read said book? Besides me, of course. :D

[zapatista]

l or it can first upscale the chroma channel to 4:4:4 and than downscale (better quality)

what settings do i need to use for this in madvr, and how can i make sure the conversion workflow stays 10 bit ?


Madshi,

is this 4k down-conversion with the RGB 4.4.4 conversion workflow in the 10bit 4k domain (and then down conversion to 2k) very demanding on the GPU card version ? (i know any 4k output would require a high end card, but hope the downconversion process is much less demanding)

i am currently deciding on either a 1300gt or 1050gtx (2mb) card for my HTPC (priority being low power use, low heat generation for hot climate use, but max power for 2k madvr HT quality settings if possible) and only intend to use it for 1080p RGB 4.4.4 over hdmi to my 1080 display (which is a 10 bit panel with hdmi 1.4 input), but am hoping to be able to use high quality madvr settings specifically for this 4k downconversion (to 1080p RGB 4.4.4 @ 60 fpsec)

system specs: i7 4770k, win 7 64 bit, 32 gb ddr3 ram

[Asmodian]

what settings do i need to use for this in madvr, and how can i make sure the conversion workflow stays 10 bit ?

Turn off the "trade quality for performance" option: "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance".

Edit:
(i know any 4k output would require a high end card, but hope the downconversion process is much less demanding)

Downscaling to 2K is harder than 4K output with 4K video. Scaling in good quality takes GPU power. For playback of 4K content, especially if you have to scale it, you really want a 4G video card. 3GB will work fine, but with some restrictions. A 2GB card isn't going to be good for madVR and 4K content. You also have to consider how you upscale the chroma to math the luma before conversation to RGB. madVR does all the math using 32bit operations and stores data internally at 16bit or 48 bits per pixel.

My 4K playback settings take 10.4ms per frame on my Titan X (Pascal), I can play for 4Kp60 but without a lot of headroom (60fps is 16.67ms per frame). NGU AA (med) chroma upscaling, SSIM1D100 LL AR downscaling.

I recommend you save up for a 4GB 1050 Ti if you are concerned about maintaining RGB downscaling.

[huhn]

processing is 16 bit+

[Steffenhh]

Most of the next 5K posts have already been answered. How many people would actually read said book? Besides me, of course. :D

10/10 would read :)

[el Filou]

@zapatista: I have a 1050 Ti and a 1080 display. I just tested letting madVR upscale chroma when playing 4K, and the card can barely handle 24p with Bicubic AR chroma, SSIM1D downscale, and high quality HDR conversion.
60p is out of the question even with Bicubic downscale.
I'd recommend either getting at least a 1050 Ti or preferably 1060 6GB (but it cannot decode 10-bit VP9), or forgetting about upscaling chroma with 4K. IMHO you'd lose more image quality having to use a lower quality downscaler to compensate.

[ryrynz]

Watched 4K blade runner 2049 on my 1060 6GB using SSIM 2D LL, upscaling chroma separately turned off (of course) and HQ HDR hue with NGU AA low for chroma. Had to overclock the card for it to have enough headroom and the fan was going pretty hard.. If u want to take HDR seriously (24fps) on a full HD TV a GTX 1060+ is a must. Asmodian will be jumping straight on Volta no doubt :)

[Pauls96]

My config is
gtx 970
fx 8370
16 gigs of ram
4k monitor without hdr support.
Windows 10
I can't setup madvr to render 4k HDR movies with potplayer and MPC-BE x64. With MPC it works for 2 minutes, and uses 75% of cpu, and 53% of gpu, but then it just stops and uses 1-2%, and video stutters, until i pause it for few seconds and then i can watch movie for another 2 minutes without stuttering. For these few seconds it uses no cpu and gpu. I also use LAV video decoder, and changing DXVA to d11 didn't helped. Tried different queue sizes, but none helped. Madvr settings https://abload.de/thumb/mad1jbk1r.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=mad1jbk1r.png)https://abload.de/thumb/mad2bekre.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=mad2bekre.png)

[el Filou]

Please post screenshots of madVR OSD (Ctrl+J) in normal and stuttering situations.

[Pauls96]

This time it worked for whole 7 minutes, i didn't paused it and it crashed MPC.
information before stuttering:https://abload.de/thumb/mpcinfowkoyr.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=mpcinfowkoyr.png) and during stuttering https://abload.de/thumb/mpcinfowkoyr.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=mpcinfowkoyr.png)

[zapatista]

For playback of 4K content, especially if you have to scale it, you really want a 4G video card.

i was hoping that downconverting the 4k would not count as "playing it" (indicating my lack of knowledge on how the scaling is processed by the GPU i suspect, and yuv 4.2.0 4k to RGB 4k might also be a scaling step)) since i will only send it out as 1080 form the gfx card to the hdmi connected 2k display

You also have to consider how you upscale the chroma to math the luma before conversation to RGB.
not sure i understand you, do i need to set a luma scaling setting in madvr ? with the 4k source file being 10 bit and the downconverted file being 10 bit, i thought the 4k conversion of YUV to RGB 444 would include the luma element

@zapatista: I have a 1050 Ti and a 1080 display. I just tested letting madVR upscale chroma when playing 4K
thank you for testing this, and if you have a good 1080p display (panasonic plasma ?) that can accept RGB 4.4.4 10bit @ 60fps it sounds like you are working with similar ideas as what i am hoping to achieve

note: some of the 4k files i will be playing might be HDR, i wasnt aware the conversion of HDR to SDR (all 1080 video being SDR i presume) would be an additional gpu load in the conversion process ( i thought the 4k luma 10bit would just be converted to luma 2k 10 bit, and my 360 nits 2k display would just clip anything it cant display )




i might be able to stretch my budget to a gtx 1050-TI with 4gb vram, but a 1060-6gb would be impossible. if i only have to loose the 60fpsec to be limited @ 30fpsec that would be a compromise i can work with (presuming the other 4k conversion steps to 1080 can work in madvr at high quality video settings)

having seen the glory of 4k YUV 4.2.0 video converted to 1080p 4,4,4 RGB (if the conversion to RGB occurs in 4k), i really hope i can get this working on my current setup by just upgrading the video card to a 1050-TI 4gb vram

[SamuriHL]

Watched 4K blade runner 2049 on my 1060 6GB using SSIM 2D LL, upscaling chroma separately turned off (of course) and HQ HDR hue with NGU AA low for chroma. Had to overclock the card for it to have enough headroom and the fan was going pretty hard.. If u want to take HDR seriously (24fps) on a full HD TV a GTX 1060+ is a must. Asmodian will be jumping straight on Volta no doubt :)

On a couple of mine I had to crank it down to SSIM 1D LL on my 1060. But in general it works very well and looks awesome.

[70MM]

I dont know if this has ever been asked...
Could madvr be capable of "Black Frame Insertion" or is it beyond its boundaries?

[ryrynz]

Pauls, just try unselecting both use separate device options and present a frame for every vsync and see if that changes anything.

[ryrynz]

On a couple of mine I had to crank it down to SSIM 1D LL on my 1060. But in general it works very well and looks awesome.Yeah SSIM 2D is sharper though with less artifacts and I don't want to settle.



I dont know if this has ever been asked...
Could madvr be capable of "Black Frame Insertion" or is it beyond its boundaries?

Definitely not beyond its boundaries but I believe Nevcairiel said it was pointless at typical refresh rates.

[huhn]

I dont know if this has ever been asked...
Could madvr be capable of "Black Frame Insertion" or is it beyond its boundaries?

yes madshi has talk about it.
i personally see no way this will ever work properly for a lot of reasons.
simple example a good BFI implementation needs show the frame for a very short time like 12 ms out of 16ms the best you could do with a 120 hz screen is about 8 ms.

[Pauls96]

Pauls, just try unselecting both use separate device options and present a frame for every vsync and see if that changes anything.
No, no difference, after few minutes all load on hardware stops. I also checked temperatures for both cpu and gpu they are around 50'C, which is normal, so it is not overheating.

[ryrynz]

No, no differenceI'm fairly certain then it's your CPU that's not up to snuff for 4K. Probably best to update your GPU to get HEVC hardware decode or just update the cpu/mobo.

Do you run into this same issue with EVR?
You also said with mpc it runs for 2 mins, I assume your performance issues occur with potplayer also?