madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Mark_A_W]

Why is 6500k incorrect?

BTW, I've tried to use madVR/yCMS for my setup (running a CRT projector, measuring with HCFR) and the results are not good. There seems to be a bug in the system somewhere, the whites are fluro green.

Options 2, 3 and 4 are not for the faint hearted/newbie.....

[nand chan]

Why is 6500k incorrect?

BTW, I've tried to use madVR/yCMS for my setup (running a CRT projector, measuring with HCFR) and the results are not good. There seems to be a bug in the system somewhere, the whites are fluro green.

Options 2, 3 and 4 are not for the faint hearted/newbie.....

If the whites end up green then there is something quite strange going on indeed. What are the measurements you're pasting to the yCMS frame (in madVR)? If you're using your own .3dlut, it's quite possible you're mixing up YUV with RGB somewhere. Madshi changed how this works a while back, the new requirements for a .3dlut are:

Input: 8 bit integer, channel order: BGR, color space is the tagged input primaries (the ones in the meta data), gamma is 2.2 pure power curve, limited range, with chromatic adaption to D65.

Output: 16 bit integer, channel order: BGR, color space is your monitor's, gamma is your monitor's, limited range, with chromatic adaptation to the display's white point.

Edit: Forgot to answer your question, D65 is in fact approximately 6504K, not 6500K.

[leeperry]

D65 is in fact approximately 6504K, not 6500K.
which is within the error margin of any colorimeter, let alone the utterly inaccurate HCFR ;)

[Mark_A_W]

If the whites end up green then there is something quite strange going on indeed. What are the measurements you're pasting to the yCMS frame (in madVR)? If you're using your own .3dlut, it's quite possible you're mixing up YUV with RGB somewhere. Madshi changed how this works a while back, the new requirements for a .3dlut are:

Input: 8 bit integer, channel order: BGR, color space is the tagged input primaries (the ones in the meta data), gamma is 2.2 pure power curve, limited range, with chromatic adaption to D65.

Output: 16 bit integer, channel order: BGR, color space is your monitor's, gamma is your monitor's, limited range, with chromatic adaptation to the display's white point.

Edit: Forgot to answer your question, D65 is in fact approximately 6504K, not 6500K.

I was testing the integrated yCMS in the newer versions of madVR. You paste your measurements directly in from HCFR.

It's possible I made a mistake (there was one mistake I have corrected), as the direction of rows and columns is different - it's a painful process.

What I am really trying to say, is this is not easy, and frankly I'm not aware of anyone getting it working properly (correct me if I'm wrong.....PLEASE!!).

Oh, and 6504k vs 6500k....um....really? Even 6600k or 6400k are basically invisible to the naked eye without a reference....unless you are leeperry ;)

My CRT projector's response is messy (even with hours spent tweaking the colours with HCFR and Gamma on the PC...it's...old..) and it still looks fantastic.

[Mark_A_W]

which is within the error margin of any colorimeter, let alone the utterly inaccurate HCFR ;)


What do you mean by that?

My HCFR was calibrated against a calibrated Colorfacts with the expensive Eye One sensor.

It gave basically identical results - certainly good enough for me, and fantastic for $100.

[nand chan]

which is within the error margin of any colorimeter, let alone the utterly inaccurate HCFR ;)

I assume a “professional calibrator” will have access to professional-grade equipment, like $5000 spectrophotometers. ;)

I was testing the integrated yCMS in the newer versions of madVR. You paste your measurements directly in from HCFR.

Yes, which ones did you paste? Paste them here.

It's possible I made a mistake (there was one mistake I have corrected), as the direction of rows and columns is different - it's a painful process.

What I am really trying to say, is this is not easy, and frankly I'm not aware of anyone getting it working properly (correct me if I'm wrong.....PLEASE!!).

Works fine here, even brilliantly so.

Oh, and 6504k vs 6500k....um....really? Even 6600k or 6400k are basically invisible to the naked eye without a reference....unless you are leeperry ;)

My CRT projector's response is messy (even with hours spent tweaking the colours with HCFR and Gamma on the PC...it's...old..) and it still looks fantastic.

1/1/1 in 6500K is equal to 1.0001484002173517 / 0.999984246706869 / 0.99971868953766008 at 6504K.

That is, at 16-bit scales, 65544.7254082441436595 / 65533.967607934659915 / 65516.5643188505533428, a difference of 1-20. Regardless of whether or not you can see it, it's a notable enough margin when calibrating a 16-bit gamma curve.

[Asmodian]

What do you mean by that?

My HCFR was calibrated against a calibrated Colorfacts with the expensive Eye One sensor.

It gave basically identical results - certainly good enough for me, and fantastic for $100.

But its error is larger than +-4K at 6500K, it isn't a super accurate sensor. Sensors that are that accurate are very expensive. I am pretty sure the Eye One isn't. I am sure the HCFR is great for video watching and normal use but you don't need to worry about (and cannot differentiate) the difference between D65 and 6500K. :)

[nand chan]

But its error is larger than +-4K at 6500K, it isn't a super accurate sensor. Sensors that are that accurate are very expensive. I am pretty sure the Eye One isn't. I am sure the HCFR is great for video watching and normal use but you don't need to worry about (and cannot differentiate) the difference between D65 and 6500K. :)

Depending on which model of Eye One, it will start to enter that area. The Eye One Pro series ranges from $1000 to $4000+.

[Mark_A_W]

I assume a “professional calibrator” will have access to professional-grade equipment, like $5000 spectrophotometers. ;)



Yes, which ones did you paste? Paste them here.



Works fine here, even brilliantly so.



1/1/1 in 6500K is equal to 1.0001484002173517 / 0.999984246706869 / 0.99971868953766008 at 6504K.

That is, at 16-bit scales, 65544.7254082441436595 / 65533.967607934659915 / 65516.5643188505533428, a difference of 1-20. Regardless of whether or not you can see it, it's a notable enough margin when calibrating a 16-bit gamma curve.


Primaries:

red, Yxy, 5.112, 0.628, 0.337
green, Yxy, 9.018, 0.294, 0.595
blue, Yxy, 1.672, 0.156, 0.078
white, Yxy, 10.833, 0.321, 0.342


Greyscale:

20, Yxy, 0.301, 0.338, 0.349
30, Yxy, 1.179, 0.316, 0.333
40, Yxy, 2.705, 0.311, 0.335
50, Yxy, 5.037, 0.311, 0.340
60, Yxy, 7.476, 0.315, 0.340
70, Yxy, 10.364, 0.320, 0.341
80, Yxy, 10.603, 0.320, 0.341
90, Yxy, 10.749, 0.321, 0.342
100, Yxy, 10.850, 0.321, 0.342

But its error is larger than +-4K at 6500K, it isn't a super accurate sensor. Sensors that are that accurate are very expensive. I am pretty sure the Eye One isn't. I am sure the HCFR is great for video watching and normal use but you don't need to worry about (and cannot differentiate) the difference between D65 and 6500K. :)


It was about A$5k. He is a professional calibrator, one of two in Australia (both my mates).

Greytag Macbeth Eye One Pro or somesuch, I forget the exact name. The one you have to take black readings with constantly - it has a little shutter you close to do that.

[Asmodian]

1/1/1 in 6500K is equal to 1.0001484002173517 / 0.999984246706869 / 0.99971868953766008 at 6504K.

From the spec sheet of the X-Rite EyeOne Pro - Enhanced:
Short-term repeatability: x,y: +/- 0.002 typical (CRT 5000°K, 80 cd/m2)

I am sure it is a great calibration system, certainly better than anything I have access to, but that is a very small difference.

[nand chan]

From the spec sheet of the X-Rite EyeOne Pro - Enhanced:
Short-term repeatability: x,y: +/- 0.002 typical (CRT 5000°K, 80 cd/m2)

I am sure it is a great calibration system, certainly better than anything I have access to, but that is a very small difference.

6504K is 0.31271405688264758 / 0.32911909913718723
6500K is 0.3127788761948111 / 0.32918349849804096
D65 is 0.31272661468101209 / 0.32902313032606195 I believe, but don't quote me on this as I have not run the calculations myself and therefore have no guarantee of its accuracy.

So that's a difference of 0.00006481931216352. I guess we will have to make do for now then.

Primaries:

red, Yxy, 5.112, 0.628, 0.337
green, Yxy, 9.018, 0.294, 0.595
blue, Yxy, 1.672, 0.156, 0.078
white, Yxy, 10.833, 0.321, 0.342


Greyscale:

20, Yxy, 0.301, 0.338, 0.349
30, Yxy, 1.179, 0.316, 0.333
40, Yxy, 2.705, 0.311, 0.335
50, Yxy, 5.037, 0.311, 0.340
60, Yxy, 7.476, 0.315, 0.340
70, Yxy, 10.364, 0.320, 0.341
80, Yxy, 10.603, 0.320, 0.341
90, Yxy, 10.749, 0.321, 0.342
100, Yxy, 10.850, 0.321, 0.342

Seems to work fine if I omit the grayscale information. What I'd do in your case is use good software such as ArgyllCMS to calculate the transformation.

[Asmodian]

They are all 0.313 / 0.329 in my book. ;)

EDIT:

20, Yxy, 0.301, 0.338, 0.349

That looks like a very low Y for 20%? Are you sure you didn't copy 0% there?

and only ~10 at 100% seems low as well. Maybe just low total luminance. :)

[Mark_A_W]

Seems to work fine if I omit the grayscale information. What I'd do in your case is use good software such as ArgyllCMS to calculate the transformation.

Ok, I'll look into it, read your guide for a start, thanks.





That looks like a very low Y for 20%? Are you sure you didn't copy 0% there?

and only ~10 at 100% seems low as well. Maybe just low total luminance. :)

It is a CRT projector. It behaves differently to a digital. It can do peak white very well, but not a full white field.

Colorfacts can measure with a small field, rather than a full screen (like the HCFR inbuilt stuff). A field suits a CRT projector better.

Subjectively it's as bright as most HT dedicated digital projectors.



As for the 20% being low, again that's a CRT thing. Some people put a bump in their gamma curve to address this, but I found that causes streaking (another CRT thing) on mine.

I can raise the brightness, which will lift 20%, but then black won't be BLACK. I've never seen a digital where black is completely black, always grey.

I can choose to crush a bit of the low end, and have BLACK blacks, or slightly lit blacks (like a digital) and better shadow detail. At least I have a choice ;)

[nand chan]

Ok, I'll look into it, read your guide for a start, thanks.

It's actually not what you want, because in this case your display is already profiled. I have not written any updated guides for handling a properly profiled/pre-calibrated monitor.

[6233638]

First of all, treat 25fps as 23,976 option in madVR will not work in my setup. This is because I ONLY bitstream and if I am correct this function only works when you let the decoding by done by the HTPC.With a username like that, dare I ask why you require bitstreaming?

It is a CRT projector. It behaves differently to a digital. It can do peak white very well, but not a full white field.CRTs need to be calibrated with 1% area patterns. I don't know of any commercial package which offers these. The EBU mentions this in their documents on measuring reference monitors.

This may make it difficult to measure projectors with lower-end meters though, as they should be taken at a distance of 3 screen heights, and the cheaper meters tend to have a fairly wide angle of acceptance. To be honest though, with projectors I tend to just measure facing the projector itself using a screen offset, as you get much better readings, especially with lower-end meters or spectrophotmeters in general. If you have a completely neutral screen (such as Carada's Brilliant White material—assuming they have not made any changes) the offset may not even be necessary.

Here are the required patterns. (10% steps) http://www.mediafire.com/?9zcr8fvf57glgfz

As for the 20% being low, again that's a CRT thing. Some people put a bump in their gamma curve to address this, but I found that causes streaking (another CRT thing) on mine.When you say streaking, do you mean phosphor trailing? (streaks left behind objects moving over dark areas)

If that is the case, you probably have brightness set too low. CRTs cannot do true black when operating correctly, there is still the need for bias voltage to keep the gun at the proper operating level. Grade 1 reference monitors had a contrast of approximately 10,000:1 when set up for correct operation—worse than the second generation of Kuros, in fact.

I fully appreciate the appeal of true blacks, however. I was completely dissatisfied with the Kuro Monitors' black level for example.

Back when I was a CRT owner—sadly, due to several displays dying on me in the space of a year, the complete lack of a second-hand market for them here, and an impending move, I now have a local-dimmed LCD—I would set my display up for jet black, and then use a VideoEQ to get a flat 2.40 gamma with perfect greyscale. This required a hand-crafted LUT though, with the device only operating in 8-bit there was considerable banding and discolouration introduced near black with their software. In theory it could do 10-bit, but it required a 10-bit input to get 10-bit out and madVR is still sending 8-bit to my TV.

I don't know how well madVR's 3D LUTs would work for this task, you would have to try it. I suspect it would need, at the very least, some tweaking of the input values to help shape the LUT, if not a completely hand-crafted LUT—most LUT generation tools seem to be tailored around digital displays and don't work too well with CRT.

If I recall correctly, I actually found that my CRTs were fairly linear in their response, and it was best to set 20%, 90% and 100% values in the LUT, letting everything else be interpolated. It is critical that the LUT does not end up tapering down from 20% to 0,0,0 however. It should simply continue the slope from 90–20% right down to 1% grey and then 0 should be set at 0,0,0 otherwise there will be significant discolouration.

I actually think that a hand-crafted LUT is probably best in all instances, as you are sometimes better off with minor greyscale/gamma irregularities for the sake of avoiding banding/discolouration near black, or to ensure that all levels remain distinct. Unfortunately, I've still not figured out how to create a hand-crafted LUT for use with madVR yet. (I want to set the output RGB values being sent to the display for specific points, not give it an input and have it calculate what it thinks is best)

I've only recently started using the 3DLUT functionality, but it seems to make a good improvement on my LCD, I just have to stay above 20% to avoid banding problems. I suspect with a hand-crafted LUT this could be better, but I'm able to use my display's controls to fix those issues. (I shift the errors up to the higher end of the greyscale where there aren't any problems making changes)

I assume a “professional calibrator” will have access to professional-grade equipment, like $5000 spectrophotometers. ;)You would be surprised at the quality of the meters in some kits that cost thousands of dollars, particularly Sencore's kit. Not sure what it's like since they have teamed up with Spectracal though, but for considerably less, you can get better equipment than Sencore were selling a few years ago, for a fraction of the price from Spectracal.

The $5000 CP-5000 from Sencore was worse than the $500 Chroma-5 from Spectracal. (a newer OEM version from the same product family)

The $7000 OTC1000/X-Rite Hubble's only saving grace is that it is a good non-contact meter. Other than the narrow angle of acceptance and laser targeting, it is not a particularly great performer—it's only specced down to 0.034 cd/m²!

Colorfacts is extremely overpriced software—I can't speak for the latest version (if it's even still around) but I'd actually say you're probably better off with HCFR compared to it. Hell, HCFR still has some features in there that are only offered in one other package that I'm aware of. (RGBCMY saturation & luminance measurements, which were only just introduced in Chromapure earlier this year)

which is within the error margin of any colorimeter, let alone the utterly inaccurate HCFR ;)Do you have any evidence of this?

[Mark_A_W]

Thanks for the patterns 6233638. They are exactly what is needed.

And yes, streaking is phosphor trailing. The NEC with a push-pull neckboard is more prone to it, particularly with a low end gamma bump. Earlier single amp neckboards are basically immune. And a Sony 1292 is completely riddled with streaking, there is a fix for it now, but a 1292 is too old and noisy even for me.

I'm pretty happy with my black level. The G2 is set correctly (by me, no trivial task on a NEC), after that it is just a matter of picking your compromises.

And one thing, in my experience, CRT monitors can be pretty linear. But CRT projectors are not, particularly NECs. Blue hump, for instance. Still, the image is very nice, and while I would now swap it for a digital, I wouldn't have until very recently (even then only a LCOS/SXRD....if only the affordable ones would do BLACK a bit better!)

Mark

[6233638]

And one thing, in my experience, CRT monitors can be pretty linear. But CRT projectors are not, particularly NECs. Blue hump, for instance.That's true. I found the same with some newer CRT televisions/monitors too. Seems to be that once they got digital processing controlling some aspects, they ruined a lot of what makes an analogue CRT great. (not saying that's the cause of the blue hump though)

Still, the image is very nice, and while I would now swap it for a digital, I wouldn't have until very recently (even then only a LCOS/SXRD....if only the affordable ones would do BLACK a bit better!)Just a word of warning, the motion handling on LCoS/SXRD sucks, even on the latest models, and you will only be happy with the black level on the higher-end JVCs.

It's a shame that CRT is dead. It didn't stand a chance considering the bulk and power inefficiency (although it's only since we've had LED screens that flat panels improve on them, as most people buy a larger set) and what's out there is gradually disappearing, but there's nothing yet that comes close to a good CRT for wonderfully smooth gradation, variable scan rates, inky-deep black levels. There's a certain richness to the image on a good CRT that I've yet to find with a flat panel or other display.

[BeNooL]

which is within the error margin of any colorimeter, let alone the utterly inaccurate HCFR ;)

After a good laugh reading the original anwser; this was exactly my thoughts too.

[leeperry]

After a good laugh reading the original answer; this was exactly my thoughts too.
And tbh, this discussion has nothing to do in the mVR thread. madshi has better things to do than skipping through pages of colorimetry nitpicking when using a crappy non-tristimulus DIY sensor that bases its results off a reference file...that is highly inaccurate in essence(even Michel Lill from the HCFR team says so, I guess he'd know :rolleyes: ). And yes, I've owned the HCFR toy and here's what Graeme Gill has to say about it(off the ArgyllCMS manual):
The accuracy of this instrument does not seem to be comparable to the commercial instruments

[6233638]

And tbh, this discussion has nothing to do in the mVR thread. madshi has better things to do than skipping through pages of colorimetry nitpicking when using a crappy non-tristimulus DIY sensor that bases its results off a reference file...that is highly inaccurate in essence(even Michel Lill from the HCFR team says so, I guess he'd know :rolleyes: ). And yes, I've owned the HCFR toy and here's what Graeme Gill has to say about it(off the ArgyllCMS manual):I'm sorry, I thought you were criticising the software, which works with a range of other meters. The DIY sensor is not something I'd ever consider suitable for calibration.

[TheProfosist]

Im currently having a issue where when i playback on my second monitor using D3D11 for presentation and i enter exclusive mode MPC-HC crashes with the below error:
Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: BEX
Application Name: mpc-hc.exe
Application Version: 1.5.2.3456
Application Timestamp: 4e29d332
Fault Module Name: madVR.ax
Fault Module Version: 0.74.0.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 4e516bc2
Exception Offset: 0003231a
Exception Code: c000000d
Exception Data: 00000000
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 0a68
Additional Information 2: 0a6884bbdf5111fa2279f2535a7cd566
Additional Information 3: 749e
Additional Information 4: 749e8f106870e5fcdbc114acbc3c00d2

the other problem that i have is that unless i enter exclusive mode there is a blinking box in the upper right hand corner of the display (which is rather annoying).

I am also still having this problem on my laptop. when i try to play a fullscreen video with madVR and MPC-HC. After a few seconds i it crashes and i get this error from windows:

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: BEX
Application Name: mpc-hc.exe
Application Version: 1.5.2.3456
Application Timestamp: 4e29d332
Fault Module Name: madVR.ax
Fault Module Version: 0.74.0.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 4e516bc2
Exception Offset: 0003231a
Exception Code: c000000d
Exception Data: 00000000
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: cfd3
Additional Information 2: cfd39af6f2554026609aee2812317e49
Additional Information 3: ba1d
Additional Information 4: ba1d1af66b681e7b15d51afc345f34da

I have found that the flashing box only happens when i disable desktop composition. And never shows up in full screen. The error that i got when i tried to go D3D11 was cannot get back buffer or something like that... I cam up with that in all red txt when madVR was trying to switch to full screen. I only did that once now when trying to switch to fullscreen it just crashes. These problem occur only on my secondary monitor that is hooked up to my secondary card. Neither of these problems occurs when I playback on main monitor.

EDIT: The exact message that comes up is "copying back buffer failed (exclusive mode)"

tested just about everything. is not my card tried 2 other both of different brands and cores. the problem is running D3D11 off on the secondary card when another monitor is considered the main monitor. I tested this by making the second monitor th main one and everything ran perfectly. nor weird flashing box either even with disable desktop composition enabled.

Tested just on my single card. I think the problem lies in D3D11 because with the standard (i believe DX9) I can go fullscreen/exclusive and sill use the second monitor to complete work while watching something. If I enable D3D11 and click onto my fist monitor to do something while watching something in fullscreen/exclusive the video stops rendering but the audio keeps playing.

For an example I have a video playing in D3D11 on my secondary monitor plugged into my main card it working great now since switching to fullscreen my firefox window has become black. If I click on it to use it the video stops rendering until i exit exclusive mode and re-enter it. Is this because of how windows handles DX11? Would this be causing the madVR error that i would be getting if i tried the same thing but using the secondary card?

[kostik]

Will Alienware M14X handle Madvr?
It has:
video card: Nvidia 555M gt 3GB
CPU : I7 2760QM (2.5-3.5GHZ)
memory: 8gb 1600 mhz
hard drive : 120 GB SSD

Thanks!

[golagoda]

Will Alienware M14X handle Madvr?
It has:
video card: Nvidia 555M gt 3GB
CPU : I7 2760QM (2.5-3.5GHZ)
memory: 8gb 1600 mhz
hard drive : 120 GB SSD

Thanks!

Honestly the fact you needed to ask me me lol :p

I use madVR with ease on a Nvidia 9500 GT, AMD Athlon II x2 and 4 gigs of 800 MHz RAM, you'll be more than fine.

[Mark_A_W]

Will Alienware M14X handle Madvr?
It has:
video card: Nvidia 555M gt 3GB
CPU : I7 2760QM (2.5-3.5GHZ)
memory: 8gb 1600 mhz
hard drive : 120 GB SSD

Thanks!

No chance. You better get something with some grunt.

[namaiki]

Watch out for Optimus.

[THX-UltraII]

It's careful to note here that you can't confuse “calibrated” with “profiled”, or confuse the different types of calibration with eachother.
The projector is calibrated for sure. I payed a lot of money for this and the best of the five oficially ISF clibration professionals here in Holland did the 2 hour calibration.

It sounds like the ISF calibration just fixes the white point to be at precisely 6500K (which is also incorrect, incidentally, but I trust that the “professional” doing your calibration knows this) - I don't know how well and to what standard your gamma is calibrated and I don't know anything at all about your gamut. Do you know if your calibration has performed this additional task and how well? Is there something like a calibration report that he gave you?
I can ask for the calibration report with the company. I ll do that and report back with the info I will get from them.


It sounds like you have at least a “THX Mode” which is supposed to be (in theory) calibrated to 2.2 PPC, D65 and BT.709. Can you confirm how many color “modes” you have, and which one you are using?

The professional that gave my JVC RS25 the calibration set a lot of things to custom in the projector so I m not using one of the standard profiles. He also told me the THX mode is ok but far from perfect.

Can you maybe tell me the specific questions I will need to ask the person who ISF calibrated my JVC RS25?

[THX-UltraII]

Just a word of warning, the motion handling on LCoS/SXRD sucks, even on the latest models, and you will only be happy with the black level on the higher-end JVCs.

You are very correct on this one indeed. I m a JVC DILA freak and I owned the RS1, RS10, RS20 and I now have the high-end model RS25. The blacks are the best you can get from a digital projector. There s no pj that can compete with my JVC as for blacks. Another thing about the JVCs is the high native contrast and the lack of the o so irritating iris.

BUT, the thing that JVC really need to work on is the motion handling. Ok, it got better during my model upgradings but it s still not good enough for me. I saw the Sony VW90 with the 240Hz panels a howly cow, that s smooth as butter, wat better than my JVC. The JVC tops the Sony as for absolute black level and the 3D on the VW90 sucks. Saw a preview of the VW95 and that seems like a winner but it will cost 6-7k street price at launch next month.

[nand chan]

The projector is calibrated for sure. I payed a lot of money for this and the best of the five oficially ISF clibration professionals here in Holland did the 2 hour calibration.

Do note that “calibrated” isn't necessarily better than “profiled”. In general, even the reverse is true - since with a proper profile you have far more flexibility than with a static calibration. Even if you calibrate, you still want to profile for best results.

I can ask for the calibration report with the company. I ll do that and report back with the info I will get from them.

Would be perfect.

The professional that gave my JVC RS25 the calibration set a lot of things to custom in the projector so I m not using one of the standard profiles. He also told me the THX mode is ok but far from perfect.

He's right in saying that.

Can you maybe tell me the specific questions I will need to ask the person who ISF calibrated my JVC RS25?

Okay:

1. Which set of exact primaries is it calibrated to? (I assume the white point is D65)
2. Which exact gamma curve is it calibrated to?
3. Is an ICC profile available for the exact calibration result, or is it perfect enough for this to be negligible?

[THX-UltraII]

I ll post the calibration results tomorrow I think. Already got an answer from my calibration guy:

1. D6500 REC709
2. Gamma 2.3
3. No ICC profile is made, because it's calibrated as a "normal" Home Theater projector, not as a computer display. It's highly irregular that with an ISF calibration an ICC profile is created, this is normally done with computer displays, or when the projector is setup as computer display.

Is this good enough info nand chan

[nand chan]

I ll post the calibration results tomorrow I think. Already got an answer from my calibration guy:

1. D6500 REC709
2. Gamma 2.3
3. No ICC profile is made, because it's calibrated as a "normal" Home Theater projector, not as a computer display. It's highly irregular that with an ISF calibration an ICC profile is created, this is normally done with computer displays, or when the projector is setup as computer display.

Is this good enough info nand chan

Yeah, that's fine. I would have assumed 2.2, but it makes sense to use 2.3 for projectors since that's what the BT.709 spec recommends due to the way movies are overencoded. Either way, the problem now is that madVR outputs a 2.2 PPC, and your projector assumes you input a 2.3 PPC.

Depending on your setup, this can either be a good thing or a bad thing:

1. If your ambient light conditions are perfectly normalized to an ICC reference encoding room setup, it's bad - in this case, you want a perfectly source-linear light level.
2. If your ambient light conditions are average or dimly lit, it's probably the perfect setting. Do you know if he measured your ambient light level during viewing?
3. If your ambient light conditions are very dark to pitch black, it's too low - in this setting you want a curve somewhere around 2.45 to 2.5.

Ideally, you want to perfectly recreate the Trimaster's reference CRT curve, but that's not as easily doable. It depends on your viewing conditions. If in doubt, you can leave his “imperfect” 2.2 -> 2.3 transition (which is actually better in this case, due to, again, overencoding of movies).

His lack of providing an ICC profile baffles me a bit though - they're just as important for video displays as they are for computer displays, since you're using a HTPC to drive your projector which technically makes it a computer display - and an ICC-calculated .3dlut is the only way to get the most out of your viewing experience, especially since it allows you to match gamuts such as xvYCC etc. as well if the need ever arises, without having to pay for an expensive re-calibration.

Ps. How often is he going to update the values? A calibration should be updated at least once a month.

[dansrfe]

Can anyone guide or link me to a basic to advanced calibration method for an LCD Screen, LCD LED Screen, and a Plasma screen? I have completely disabled driver software changes to the display (aka catalyst & nvidia control panel) and just have a windows 7 calibration done on all three of my monitors after putting them on default brightness/contrast levels (which seem pretty clear/normal).

What my question essentially boils down to is: What tools do I need to setup up the best possible calibration which I can do myself and not need to have a professional come in and do. I'm on Windows 7 x64 w/ latest madVR. It's not that I don't want to spend money on a professional calibration. I'm just interested in doing it myself and learning how to do it rather than have someone else do it, even if costs more in the end. Thanks!

[Boltron]

This site is a great source of info.
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

[THX-UltraII]

Yeah, that's fine. I would have assumed 2.2, but it makes sense to use 2.3 for projectors since that's what the BT.709 spec recommends due to the way movies are overencoded. Either way, the problem now is that madVR outputs a 2.2 PPC, and your projector assumes you input a 2.3 PPC.

Depending on your setup, this can either be a good thing or a bad thing:

1. If your ambient light conditions are perfectly normalized to an ICC reference encoding room setup, it's bad - in this case, you want a perfectly source-linear light level.
2. If your ambient light conditions are average or dimly lit, it's probably the perfect setting. Do you know if he measured your ambient light level during viewing?
3. If your ambient light conditions are very dark to pitch black, it's too low - in this setting you want a curve somewhere around 2.45 to 2.5.

Ideally, you want to perfectly recreate the Trimaster's reference CRT curve, but that's not as easily doable. It depends on your viewing conditions. If in doubt, you can leave his “imperfect” 2.2 -> 2.3 transition (which is actually better in this case, due to, again, overencoding of movies).

His lack of providing an ICC profile baffles me a bit though - they're just as important for video displays as they are for computer displays, since you're using a HTPC to drive your projector which technically makes it a computer display - and an ICC-calculated .3dlut is the only way to get the most out of your viewing experience, especially since it allows you to match gamuts such as xvYCC etc. as well if the need ever arises, without having to pay for an expensive re-calibration.

Ps. How often is he going to update the values? A calibration should be updated at least once a month.

I just had contact with the ISF professional again and he told me that a ICC profile is not made by with the standard calibration my JVC got. A ICC profile only is made when running content from a HTPC which is what I do of course

Will he need to do a re-calibration for my pj for the best result?



EDIT:
got a new reply from the IFS guy. I ll try to translate my best:

Do you only play with rendering programs, video editing for BT605 and rec709bt?
If you ONLY play movies or games than the calibration as I did it is correct. For a ICC calibration you pay € 250,- extra, and again, this is only done for people who play with blackmagic or AJA cards.
For a HTPC it is normal to make a standard ICC profile and calibrate on that profile, otherwise every other source you will connect to your display device other than your HTPC will not be correct. A ICC profile is a extra profile and is only beeing used in systems with a ''locked'' hardware system. And again, only for special purposes, not for HTPC usage. I also will have to make the profile with two analysers, one for the ICC profile (auto process via HTPC) and after that a calibration with the spectrum analyser.



EDIT 2:
And again a reply:

You have to read carefully. Do you have a blackmagic card or AJA? I gave you a perfect calibration, the signal that is send out by your PC is 100% according to the standard, gives you a D6500 greyscale with a 2.3 gamma (as close as possible) and a REC709 colorspace.
As I explained before a ICC profile if you run colormanaged software like a renderer, final cut pro in combination with a AJA or blackmagic card of if you use another very specific setup. For normal HT usage, as you do (watching movies) I gave you the correct calibration.



EDIT 3: :)

Another reply from him:

ICC profiles are for HTPC usage in fact not needed. You just have to have a correct D6500, gamma 2.3 and REC709 calibration. You DO use a ICC profile by the way, but that s 'generic' standard ICC profile. Look in your projector settings and you will see this.
Let me be clear again:
If you use ICC we are talking about setups that work with AJA or blackmagic cards or a very specific colormanaged workflow where you convert from 1 colorspace to another, THERE IS NO HTPC SOLUTION THAT CAN DO THIS. What you do is just play a dvd or videofile and for this is absolutely no ICC profile needed

[THX-UltraII]

And here is my calibration report.

ps. Rename the .txt to .xls to see the report!

[nand chan]

I just had contact with the ISF professional again and he told me that a ICC profile is not made by with the standard calibration my JVC got. A ICC profile only is made when running content from a HTPC which is what I do of course

Will he need to do a re-calibration for my pj for the best result?

He will not have to re-do your calibration. Profiling is an additional step.

Do you only play with rendering programs, video editing for BT605 and rec709bt?
If you ONLY play movies or games than the calibration as I did it is correct. For a ICC calibration you pay € 250,- extra, and again, this is only done for people who play with blackmagic or AJA cards.
For a HTPC it is normal to make a standard ICC profile and calibrate on that profile, otherwise every other source you will connect to your display device other than your HTPC will not be correct. A ICC profile is a extra profile and is only beeing used in systems with a ''locked'' hardware system. And again, only for special purposes, not for HTPC usage. I also will have to make the profile with two analysers, one for the ICC profile (auto process via HTPC) and after that a calibration with the spectrum analyser.

It doesn't matter whether he calibrates to BT.709 or not, even after calibration he can still provide an ICC profile so you can smooth out all of the calibration inaccuracies, and do crazy stuff like provide a 134217728-entry 3D LUT for the absolute best results. I highly, highly doubt that your projector has a 512x512x512 LUT, it's probably more like 16x16x16.

You have to read carefully. Do you have a blackmagic card or AJA? I gave you a perfect calibration, the signal that is send out by your PC is 100% according to the standard, gives you a D6500 greyscale with a 2.3 gamma (as close as possible) and a REC709 colorspace.
As I explained before a ICC profile if you run colormanaged software like a renderer, final cut pro in combination with a AJA or blackmagic card of if you use another very specific setup. For normal HT usage, as you do (watching movies) I gave you the correct calibration.

It should not matter whether you use an AJA or blackmagic card - the point here is that the PC tries its “best” to get a D65/2.3/BT709 signal, and the projector tries its “best” to display that. But no matter how good you get this, the projector will usually always be the weak link, since it'll never be a perfect D65/2.3/BT709 (unless your projector has hundreds of megabytes of memory for the calibration :) ).

The point here is that you should get the projector as close as possible to BT.709 (he's done this), then *profile* it so you have a detailed report of all of the inaccuracies. You should do this over at least 2000 sample patches, but I'd recommend more. An optimal profiling should probably have been done overnight, as they can take many hours at several thousand samples.

Then, you can use your very, very powerful (compared to the projector) HTPC to adjust for all of the tiny little differences. You'll probably be able to cut the delta E in half that way. I doubt you'll see a difference with the eye, but better is always better, right?


ICC profiles are for HTPC usage in fact not needed. You just have to have a correct D6500, gamma 2.3 and REC709 calibration. You DO use a ICC profile by the way, but that s 'generic' standard ICC profile. Look in your projector settings and you will see this.
Let me be clear again:
If you use ICC we are talking about setups that work with AJA or blackmagic cards or a very specific colormanaged workflow where you convert from 1 colorspace to another, THERE IS NO HTPC SOLUTION THAT CAN DO THIS. What you do is just play a dvd or videofile and for this is absolutely no ICC profile needed

They're not needed, but they're still useful. A “correct” D6500 / gamma 2.3 / REC709 calibration is not always as “correct” as one wants it to be. This is why I spend up to 10 hours generating massive charts for my playback device. Even those are not perfect, usually because my monitor is limited to 10 bit precision.

or a very specific colormanaged workflow where you convert from 1 colorspace to another, THERE IS NO HTPC SOLUTION THAT CAN DO THIS

Tell him this is plain WRONG. madVR is perfectly capable of doing this. That's the whole reason for the ordeal. We *CAN* convert color spaces ourselves, and we do know what we are doing, and have complex software for the task.

And here is my calibration report.

ps. Rename the .txt to .xls to see the report!

Upload your attachment somewhere else, getting them approved on doom9 can take quite a while.

[leeperry]

I just had contact with the ISF professional again and he told me that a ICC profile is not made by with the standard calibration my JVC got. A ICC profile only is made when running content from a HTPC which is what I do of course

Will he need to do a re-calibration for my pj for the best result?
Your JVC pj runs off 10/12bit internal processing, forget about 8bit ICC's on the computer. ICC's/1DLUT's are necessary when you're using a stubborn display that has very limited colorimetry settings, that's all.

[nand chan]

Can anyone guide or link me to a basic to advanced calibration method for an LCD Screen, LCD LED Screen, and a Plasma screen? I have completely disabled driver software changes to the display (aka catalyst & nvidia control panel) and just have a windows 7 calibration done on all three of my monitors after putting them on default brightness/contrast levels (which seem pretty clear/normal).

What my question essentially boils down to is: What tools do I need to setup up the best possible calibration which I can do myself and not need to have a professional come in and do. I'm on Windows 7 x64 w/ latest madVR. It's not that I don't want to spend money on a professional calibration. I'm just interested in doing it myself and learning how to do it rather than have someone else do it, even if costs more in the end. Thanks!

If you do end up buying a colorimeter/spectrometer, you should try going for one of these: http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/ArgyllDoc.html as they are usable with the excellent and free software ArgyllCMS, often better than even the expensive official software they come with.

Your JVC pj runs off 10/12bit internal processing, forget about 8bit ICC's on the computer. ICC's/1DLUT's are necessary when you're using a stubborn display that has very limited colorimetry settings, that's all.

Yes and madVR runs off 16-bit processing, and uses 16-bit LUTs. Even if the projector is capable of 12-bit internal processing, how many samples does it really store?

[THX-UltraII]

Thanks for your very extensive reply and time you take for my postings nand chan. The only problem is that the stuff you talk about is way out of my league and I just don t understand all these values/settings you discuss. I emailed all your replies directly to him so I hope he will take the time to reply to this again.

But is the conclusion that you are saying that I will only get some minor (maybe not seeable) improvements with the things you talk about? Just want good PQ with correct colours displayed.

Right now my setup is:
- latest MPC-HC with madVR as output renderer.
- perfect video sync with 1-3 dropped frames/hour (reported my madVR)
- LAV video decoder with all boxes checked in the output formats field and HQ video checked
- ATI 5450 with latest ati driver and RGB Full as Pixel Format
- 0-255 checked in madVR
- projector set to RGB as colourspace and 'ENHANCED' as hdmi input

[nand chan]

Thanks for your very extensive reply and time you take for my postings nand chan. The only problem is that the stuff you talk about is way out of my league and I just don t understand all these values/settings you discuss. I emailed all your replies directly to him so I hope he will take the time to reply to this again.

But is the conclusion that you are saying that I will only get some minor (maybe not seeable) improvements with the things you talk about? Just want good PQ with correct colours displayed.

Then you'll probably be fine. The differences should be very minor if at best. I'm just anal about color accuracy.

Right now my setup is:
- latest MPC-HC with madVR as output renderer.
- perfect video sync with 1-3 dropped frames/hour (reported my madVR)
- LAV video decoder with all boxes checked in the output formats field and HQ video checked
- ATI 5450 with latest ati driver and RGB Full as Pixel Format
- 0-255 checked in madVR
- projector set to RGB as colourspace and 'ENHANCED' as hdmi input

Looks fine, but the only problem right now is that madVR outputs BT.709/2.2/D65 and your projector inputs BT.709/2.3/D65. Whether or not this is good or bad depends again on your ambient light setup, would you mind answering the question I asked earlier?

[THX-UltraII]

Looks fine, but the only problem right now is that madVR outputs BT.709/2.2/D65 and your projector inputs BT.709/2.3/D65. Whether or not this is good or bad depends again on your ambient light setup, would you mind answering the question I asked earlier?

Sure, I m in a 100% darkened bat cave with everything mat-black including walls, ceiling and floor. More bat cave is not possible :)

[jmonier]

I think that Madshi and the rest of us would appreciate it if you take this discussion to its' own thread. It, at this point, has nothing to do with madVR.

[nand chan]

Sure, I m in a 100% darkened bat cave with everything mat-black including walls, ceiling and floor. More bat cave is not possible :)

Then 2.3 might even be too low. To explain a bit: Common CRTs have a gamma curve of about 2.35 to 2.45, so theoretically, you want to encode an image using a gamma curve of 2.4 as well. The problem here is, when encoding, you're encoding in a studio encoding room - these are set up for an ideal encoding brightness. However, this brightness is far above everything you'd typically encounter in a home theater setup, especially if you're in a dark bat cave.

Now the problem is, the eye (or rather the brain) doesn't process light linearly. If something is surrounded by a very dark color, it'll appear different than if it's surrounded by a very bright color. It's the reason those optical illusions work (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2010/02/weekend_diversion_a_question_o/772px-grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG.png) (A and B are the same color).

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4341/gammacurves.png

So what we ended up doing is we started encoding images using a lower gamma value (1/2.2), which results in the function shown in red.
However, if we decode this on a monitor that uses a higher gamma value (eg. 2.4, shown in the blue curve below), we get the result shown in purple, which is darker than a truly linear source.

What basically is happening here is that colors are appearing darker on our monitors than they should. Since the monitor is surrounded by a dark environment, this effect cancels itself out in the brain (something surrounded by darkness will appear brighter), and we “perceptually” get the original colors back.

However, on your monitor, you have a curve of 2.3 PPC used to decode, so the result will be closer to linear. This works fine for the average dimly lit playback environment, but if you're in a perfectly dark room, you will need to emulate a higher decoding value.

What I recommend doing is going into your madVR options, check “enable gamma processing”, select “pure power curve” and choose something like 2.4 or 2.5. You'll probably have to play with the value somewhat, but this should result in a more optimal result for playback in a very dark environment. I personally use 2.5 at night, 2.4 in the evening and 2.3 during the day.

Then, go to your calibration settings and choose “the display is already calibrated”, select “BT.709” for the primaries, “pure power curve” for the curve and 2.30 for the setting.

I hope this clears things up a bit :D

I think that Madshi and the rest of us would appreciate it if you take this discussion to its' own thread. It, at this point, has nothing to do with madVR.

You're probably right. THX-UltraII, if you have any follow up to this post, send it to me via PM.

[leeperry]

Yes and madVR runs off 16-bit processing, and uses 16-bit LUTs. Even if the projector is capable of 12-bit internal processing, how many samples does it really store?
few points, in no particular order:

-I'm really not up to date on 10bit output, as I happen to be highly XP resilent...but from what I gathered, 10bit output doesn't work in mVR yet? So at the end of the day, your grossly oversized 16bit LUT is being encoded in RGB24 TMDS. And yes, 10/12(or maybe 14/16?) internal processing in his spanking new JVC pj will look better and less bandy/noisy.

-The RS1 didn't have any gamma settings at all, so I would agree w/ your statement as this very much applies for the need of an ICC...but I believe they've come a long way since then? I've got no interest in LCD based pj's(due to problems such as misconvergence), but a DDP3010 Darkchip3 DLP combo works in 10bit and provides just the right amount of colorimetry settings to avoid highly lossy 8bit adjustments.

-I might be wrong but all the stuff you like to nitpick about lately is only true if you're using a top of the line (freshly factory recalibrated) spectrophotometer and recalibrate your display at least on a weekly basis. I believe hardly anyone can DBT the same test pattern w/ a ΔE of 0/1 or 2. And many ppl can't be hassled to learn the calibration 101 and prefer to pay an ISF guy to come to their house....but we both know how fluctuant the colorimetery of a high pressure light bulb is, so one week down the road their calibration is pretty much fubar.

Theory is nice and all, and of course everything should be done w/ the highest accuracy, but please don't overlook the real world consequences. And tbh, I rest my case that this kind of discussion has little to do in the mVR thread. I've already helped THX-UltraII on both AVS and the Reclock forum....he'll come up w/ questions until the end of days, so better create a separate thread now IMHO ;)

[6233638]

Yes and madVR runs off 16-bit processing, and uses 16-bit LUTs. Even if the projector is capable of 12-bit internal processing, how many samples does it really store?Internal calculations may be 16-bit, but the results are dithered to 8-bit. There is a very noticeable drop in quality when using 3DLUTs, even on digital displays, which don't do the best job of displaying 8-bit as it is.

I would want to do as much calibration as possible—especially the lower-end of the greyscale & gamma—using the display's own controls.

I hope Madshi manages to figure out how to get 10-bit over HDMI in full-screen exclusive mode, as it would make such a difference for those of us using 10-bit native panels. (LCoS/SXRD, higher-end LCDs)


So what we ended up doing is we started encoding images using a lower gamma value (1/2.2), which results in the function shown in red.
However, if we decode this on a monitor that uses a higher gamma value (eg. 2.4, shown in the blue curve below), we get the result shown in purple, which is darker than a truly linear source.This is not correct at all. Content is encoded using the BT.709 transfer function, whose best-fit power curve is 1.96 gamma. (1/0.51)

Display gamma is absolutely not intended to get a linear result from this.

The short answer is that studio CRTs were as close to 2.40 gamma as they could be made, and the new generation of OLED monitors are exactly 2.40 gamma.

Anything else for video/film content is wrong. (but you may have to deviate from correct if you aren't watching in a dim/dark room)

PC/Game content uses sRGB, which is essentially 2.2 gamma. (technically there is an sRGB transfer function but I don't know of anything that uses it)

go to your calibration settings and choose “the display is already calibrated”, select “BT.709” for the primaries, “pure power curve” for the curve and 2.30 for the setting.This is good advice, and probably what he should do. If the projector has been well calibrated, it's almost certainly not worth paying €250 just to get a profile made. That price is fairly ridiculous as profiling just involves setting up the meter and leaving it to run unattended for 20+ minutes, depending on the package used.

[nand chan]

Internal calculations may be 16-bit, but the results are dithered to 8-bit. There is a very noticeable drop in quality when using 3DLUTs, even on digital displays, which don't do the best job of displaying 8-bit as it is.

I would want to do as much calibration as possible—especially the lower-end of the greyscale & gamma—using the display's own controls.

I hope Madshi manages to figure out how to get 10-bit over HDMI in full-screen exclusive mode, as it would make such a difference for those of us using 10-bit native panels. (LCoS/SXRD, higher-end LCDs)

I think EVR-CP can use 10-bit output, and you can also use a .3dlut for this.

This is not correct at all. Content is encoded using the BT.709 transfer function, whose best-fit power curve is 1.96 gamma. (1/0.51)

I'm talking about before BT.709 even existed. That's how the very first digital cameras started working, and the trend has continued until today. Images are adjusted during the encoding process to be darker than they actually should.

Display gamma is absolutely not intended to get a linear result from this.

That's a specific of the H.264 specification and is unrelated to the monitor output.

The short answer is that studio CRTs were as close to 2.40 gamma as they could be made, and the new generation of OLED monitors are exactly 2.40 gamma.

Anything else for video/film content is wrong. (but you may have to deviate from correct if you aren't watching in a dim/dark room)

Encoding rooms call for 80 lux at D5500, a pitch black room will be darker than that, so 2.5 is even better.

PC/Game content uses sRGB, which is essentially 2.2 gamma. (technically there is an sRGB transfer function but I don't know of anything that uses it)

This is good advice, and probably what he should do. If the projector has been well calibrated, it's almost certainly not worth paying €250 just to get a profile made. That price is fairly ridiculous as profiling just involves setting up the meter and leaving it to run unattended for 20+ minutes, depending on the package used.

20+ minutes? More like 10+ hours, especially since spectrophotometers are quite slow in their measurements compared to colorimeters.

[noee]

madshi, small cosmetic issue:

dual-mon, playback on second mon, FSE mode (Win7 x64), MPC-HC.

With the OSD turned on, if I then hover the mouse over the "Show Desktop" area of the toolbar (on the first mon), the seek bar then shows on the playback mon. Turning OSD off does not exhibit this behavior.

[6233638]

Images are adjusted during the encoding process to be darker than they actually should.No, images are encoded using a specific curve that preserves shadow details and avoids noise near black. It was never intended to be displayed linearly.

2.40 gamma is not displaying things "darker than they should", it's displaying things as intended.

Encoding rooms call for 80 lux at D5500, a pitch black room will be darker than that, so 2.5 is even better.Modern facilities are essentially a dark room—1lx ambient lighting, not 80 lux.

Reference gamma is 2.40, period. If you want to see the content as it was created and intended to be viewed, that is what's required on your display.

20+ minutes? More like 10+ hours, especially since spectrophotometers are quite slow in their measurements compared to colorimeters.ArgyllCMS' insane 256-point profiles (or however many it uses) are worthless. It is actually less accurate when using too much data to create a LUT, and using too many points of data creates considerable banding issues when outputting 8-bit.

Unless you are using pro-grade actively cooled meters in a temperature-controlled room (consumer-grade displays do not regulate their temperature) you are never going to get accurate results if it's going to take you 10 hours for measurements.

5% steps is arguably too much data for a LUT, and with some displays, even 10% steps is too much data to get a good calibration result. (it may look nice when you only plot those 10-20 points, but not when you look at the whole greyscale)

At most, profiling a display—that is the computer taking automated measurements, not an interactive calibration—should take an hour. Most packages with newer meters take half that time or less.

[jmone]

Cross post from the J.River Beta Forum as I "think" it is a madVR bug but...

1st Issue: madVR Windowed mode = Lip Sync issues on 23.776/24hz (the video is delayed so the sound come first)

There is no issue with:
- EVR
- madVR Exclusive mode
- madVR Windowed mode at 50hz or 60hz

I've tried different combinations and the following make no difference to the lipsync issues:
- Decoding Vs Bitstreaming
- Video Clock on or off
- Normalize vol on or off
- HW Accell on or off (eg CUVID vs FFDSHOW)
- madVR Settings of "delay playback start until render queue is full" on or off
- madVR Settings of "use a separate device for presentation"
- Pause/Play or a Seek makes no difference - it is consistently out
- Disabling auto refresh rate changes
- Manually pre changing refresh rates

My only conclusion at this stage is that it is madVR Windowed mode that delays the video when the refresh rate is at 23.976/24hz ...unless there is other suggestions on what to try.

[jmone]

2nd Issue: "Exclusive Mode Failed" : A few of us are having this issue on the HTPC where the Player software may not be restarted for days. At some point madVR will throw up an "Exclusive Mode Failed" error msg, and from that point on will only use Windowed Mode till the player is closed and restarted (J.River Media Center) which fixes the issue every time (but has a low WAF). Any suggestions on how to eliminate "Exclusive Mode Failed" errors?

[JarrettH]

Does the 'Use D3D11 for presentation' need a DirectX 11 card? I enabled it and assumed it wouldn't operate, but seems to play normally. :thanks:

Also, I think the 'overshoot max...' option has zeroed my presentation glitches. I thought I had it sorted before, but I noticed them cropping up again

My settings now would be:

5/8 for windowed and exclusive buffers with 'overshoot max frame latency' tweak