madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Warner306]

But still can't beat the perfect blacks and contrast of an OLED. If burn-in isn't a problem, they are the best panels out there, IMO. Bright LEDs with local dimming have more downsides. It is more a matter of whether tone mapped HDR is satisfying enough to own an HDR display. I think it can be given current content is graded to match these displays.

[svengun]

Excuse me guys, a simple question:

For an user forced to use D3D11 hardware decoding .... Isn't possible to put subtitles into viewing area?

Thank you so much

With MPC-BE you can shift them up (I have the same problem

Press: SHIFT+CONTROL + arrow up

[giulianoprs]

I still do not have the 4k HDR TV, although I'm reading various forums on the subject to document me, I also want the oled, but it would not be easier to do with madvr the passthrough, so that the tv runs the hdr?

[ashlar42]

But still can't beat the perfect blacks and contrast of an OLED. If burn-in isn't a problem, they are the best panels out there, IMO. Bright LEDs with local dimming have more downsides. It is more a matter of whether tone mapped HDR is satisfying enough to own an HDR display. I think it can be given current content is graded to match these displays.I'm pretty confident about OLED qualities, especially now that motion through BFI looks to be more configurable.
I was referring to the task of getting HDR content to the TV through madVR, drivers, OS... it seems like we are still very far from fire and forget solutions. And at the end of the day I long for simplicity. I have a TV, it's calibrated to standards, I configure madVR to my likings, I set up custom resolutions to achieve smooth playback. Done.
With HDR there appears to be an extra, heavy, layer of complexity on top of this. Maybe I'll have fun understanding it all but it's looking tougher and tougher, instead of getting simpler.

[madjock]

I'm pretty confident about OLED qualities, especially now that motion through BFI looks to be more configurable.
I was referring to the task of getting HDR content to the TV through madVR, drivers, OS... it seems like we are still very far from fire and forget solutions. And at the end of the day I long for simplicity. I have a TV, it's calibrated to standards, I configure madVR to my likings, I set up custom resolutions to achieve smooth playback. Done.
With HDR there appears to be an extra, heavy, layer of complexity on top of this. Maybe I'll have fun understanding it all but it's looking tougher and tougher, instead of getting simpler.

To be honest that side seems quite easy nowadays, I was concerned as well, but I do not have any issues with the nVidia side in enabling HDR with multiple drivers. I have to set HDR passthrough as my 1050 2GB is not up to par to do the fancy new tone mapping, but if you are up to speed in madVR all you really need to do is select HDR passthrough for ease.

Calibration is another matter though, as its not as simple as getting black and white levels, and if it is I am making hard work in doing this. :)

[Raimu]

This seems like an unusually convoluted scaling path. Noticed this upscaling TV content from 576p.

https://i.imgur.com/Anx3rBy.jpg

[iSeries]

I do not have any issues with the nVidia side in enabling HDR with multiple drivers.

I've never had any issue enabling HDR either, but the question now is, is the metadata that is being sent correct, or fake...but I guess questions like that belong in the driver thread.

[madjock]

I've never had any issue enabling HDR either, but the question now is, is the metadata that is being sent correct, or fake...but I guess questions like that belong in the driver thread.

In all honesty they are messing with multiple numbers and this and that with the latest variant of tone mapping, I watch a film once usually and that it, they are watching the same scenes over and over and over again looking for minute differences in frames.


I just like greens to look green and skin colours to look normal :)

So whether the metadata is right or wrong, Ive probably messed it all up with the HDR settings I like anyway.

[el Filou]

This seems like an unusually convoluted scaling path. Noticed this upscaling TV content from 576p.Yes, I also am seeing something similar on a 1080 screen albeit with fewer steps. The problem is NGU can only double, and (IIRC) SSIM can only scale x and y in the same proportions so if your source is anamorphic like TV, you need another step to do the scaling step from 1,25:1 to 1.78:1

In all honesty they are messing with multiple numbers and this and that with the latest variant of tone mapping, I watch a film once usually and that it, they are watching the same scenes over and over and over again looking for minute differences in frames.

I just like greens to look green and skin colours to look normal :)With HDR the issue is not limited to just colours that look correct, tbh. The whole cinematographic effect of some scenes can radically change with bad tonemapping.

[iSeries]

In all honesty they are messing with multiple numbers and this and that with the latest variant of tone mapping, I watch a film once usually and that it, they are watching the same scenes over and over and over again looking for minute differences in frames.


I just like greens to look green and skin colours to look normal :)

So whether the metadata is right or wrong, Ive probably messed it all up with the HDR settings I like anyway.

With passthrough there is nothing that should be messed up, but apparently even when just passing HDR through, nvidia is sending bogus metadata to the TV. So this is (may?) be an issue for all madVR nvidia users, regardless of whether they are using madVR to tonemap (and sending as HDR) or straight passthrough

[madjock]

With HDR the issue is not limited to just colours that look correct, tbh. The whole cinematographic effect of some scenes can radically change with bad tonemapping.

No doubt, but what concerns me is if we/they mess to what they think it should look like, then are they actually seeing what it was meant to be. I am sure like me people read UHD reviews on Bluray.com and the amount that say the colours are this, or uptick in detail here, but how many people actually care what there TV is doing. We are actually buying Blurays or UHDs from reviews when its just a normal TV with no fancy third party application making it perfect ? if there is such a thing and looking at that forum, it is going round in circles with every new clever iteration.

[madjock]

With passthrough there is nothing that should be messed up, but apparently even when just passing HDR through, nvidia is sending bogus metadata to the TV. So this is (may?) be an issue for all madVR nvidia users, regardless of whether they are using madVR to tonemap (and sending as HDR) or straight passthrough

I mean from my side with messing with TV settings, so probably make an ass of it myself let alone nVidia :)

[Raimu]

Yes, I also am seeing something similar on a 1080 screen albeit with fewer steps. The problem is NGU can only double, and (IIRC) SSIM can only scale x and y in the same proportions so if your source is anamorphic like TV, you need another step to do the scaling step from 1,25:1 to 1.78:1

Hey, that makes perfect sense. I didn't recall SSIM only does x and y in lockstep. Thank you!

[el Filou]

No doubt, but what concerns me is if we/they mess to what they think it should look like, then are they actually seeing what it was meant to be. [...] if there is such a thing and looking at that forum, it is going round in circles with every new clever iteration.I don't see it that way. From reading that thread over at AVS Forum, they are very carefully comparing the results of madVR's tonemapping with what a full range image would/should look like. It's also madshi's stated goal to create processing that gives results that are visually closer to what a full range HDR display would (highlight recovery is a good example). They spend a lot of time testing with and discussing specific scenes, but it's all done in a pretty scientific way IMHO.
Of course anybody is free to ignore that and just use passthrough especially if you have a good HDR display, but if you only own an SDR display that can output high brightness or an HDR display with bad tonemapping, and you want the best picture possible then it's an interesting development and I don't think it's a case of excessive tweaking.

[Warner306]

This seems like an unusually convoluted scaling path. Noticed this upscaling TV content from 576p.

https://i.imgur.com/Anx3rBy.jpg

I would think you Photoshopped that. If not, it just looks ridiculous, to me.

[Manni]

I don't see it that way. [...]

Thank you :)

[Manni]

@Manni

Does other apps like HDR 3D games also send wrong metadata or it's only related to madVR?

If you would like to test it, Shadow of the Tomb Raider and Resident Evil 2 have free demos on steam that support HDR.

As far as I can see, once you enable HDR in the OS, it's exactly the same bogus and constant HDR metadata that is sent to the display.

It starts when I enable HDR in the CP, and the metadata remains the same when the game is launched and plays. Of course I've enabled HDR in the game as well, as it was disabled by default.

I couldn't find the demo of RE2 on Steam, but I did find the demo of SOTTB, so that's what I used for testing.

Game isn't a priority so please don't ask for more tests, I'm busy enough with the HDR tonemapping :)

[huhn]

@Raimu
can you do a screen of the full OSD.

madVr did strange things before if up and downscaling is needed at the same time.
but for that i need a full OSD and a sample to reproduce it.

[RXP]

I've just got my PC hooked up with my TV and enjoying using MadVR especially on the JVC RS49.

I'd like to use MadVR's tone mapping with my LG C6. I use pixel shaders and pass the image through as HDR to benefit from the higher peak brightness of my TV in HDR.

My question is: Due to the Nvidia/Windows bugs where bogus meta data of 1000/20 is sent; will the internal tone mapper LG has throw off the results of MadVR? If I set the peak nits of my display to 600, LG's tone mapper should be bypassed as MadVR will report all content as 600 nits or below. But if the OS is saying it's 1000 nits - it'll be applying its own curve?

[madjock]

I've just got my PC hooked up with my TV and enjoying using MadVR especially on the JVC RS49.

I'd like to use MadVR's tone mapping with my LG C6. I use pixel shaders and pass the image through as HDR to benefit from the higher peak brightness of my TV in HDR.

My question is: Due to the Nvidia/Windows bugs where bogus meta data of 1000/20 is sent; will the internal tone mapper LG has throw off the results of MadVR? If I set the peak nits of my display to 600, LG's tone mapper should be bypassed as MadVR will report all content as 600 nits or below. But if the OS is saying it's 1000 nits - it'll be applying its own curve?

You could use the drivers it works on 385.28 (using them now). But I have to say this metadata thing news is news to me, I have tried to find other information, and have found the odd quote.

But for some reason in all the guides in using madVR and the likes, there is no mention of use this or this driver for HDR (due to metadata) so it seems like its a well known problem (or is it) thats just getting talked about again ?

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1098102/wrong-hdr-metadata/?offset=2 :)

[sat4all]

Nvidia bug affect both madVR passthrough and Pixel Shader with HDR output enabled, Do some comparaison by playing your HDR content using TV internal media player and you will see what i'm talking about.
But if you ask me, Pixel Shader with HDR output enabled is the best of the worst.
I was digging arround nvidia forums and i couldn't find a single topic about this bug, so time they hear our voice. and maybe madshi could help us by using his NV contact.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1098102/geforce-drivers/wrong-hdr-metadata/

Edit: haha madjock was faster quoting my own post :D

[RXP]

Thanks guys, but does 385.28 mean you can pixel shader with HDR output without issue? Easy for me to downgrade

[sat4all]

Yes, 385.28 work properly with either passthrough or HDR pixel shader.

[iSeries]

Anyone know what the last nvidia driver to work properly for hdr passthrough is?

[sat4all]

The bad news, is nvidia's hdr api is deprecated and pending removal.
As nevcairiel said, maybe madshi should consider OS HDR API instead of NV.

[j82k]

So, because of all this bogus metadata talk I compared nvidia drivers 385.28 (red) and 418.81 (yellow) simply by running a 4000 nits metadata grayscale sweep in HCFR.
TV is a LG C8.

As can be seen in the attached picture, below 450 nits there is no difference but above that the roll-off is much smoother with the correct metadata (385.28).
Using windows HDR produces the same bogus metadata result as 418.81.

https://i.imgur.com/0WmaL7B.jpg


I really hope this will get fixed soon. :mad:

[iSeries]

So, because of all this bogus metadata talk I compared nvidia drivers 385.28 (red) and 418.81 (yellow) simply by running a 4000 nits metadata grayscale sweep in HCFR.
TV is a LG C8.

Hi j82k, thanks for this - I know you're likely to be busy but any way you could test a couple other driver versions? (I loaned my meter to someone). Specifically 398.11, which is apparently the last driver that is working fine for HDR passthrough (and conveniently the driver that brought improved 23p playback...I never could get any good timings with 385.28)

[sat4all]

@j82k
Thanks, that very helpfull, would you please install the latest test build (https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_154997361111013&key=0f4a86ba6db5fdb509f85ecacef1696f&libId=js1q8q3o0100s3dy000DA32954z7&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avsforum.com%2Fforum%2F24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp%2F2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-170.html&v=1&opt=true&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmadshi.net%2FmadVRhdrMeasure44.zip&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avsforum.com%2Fforum%2F24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp%2F&title=Improving%20Madvr%20HDR%20to%20SDR%20mapping%20for%20projector%20-%20Page%20170%20-%20AVS%20Forum%20%7C%20Home%20Theater%20Discussions%20And%20Reviews&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fmadshi.net%2FmadVRhdrMeasure44.zip) along with nvidia 418.81 drivers and take measurements with those settings:

tone map HDR using pixel shaders
output video in HDR format = enabled
target / real display peak nits = 800
apply dynamic clipping = enabled
apply target nits selection = disabled
LG dynamic tone mapping = off

Because it seems ok for me and almost matchs correct playback using my tv embedded media player.

Btw, did you take the previous measurements with your tv's dynamic tone mapping on or off?

:thanks:

[madjock]

@j82k

Thanks for clarifying and the explanation. :o

[j82k]

Hi j82k, thanks for this - I know you're likely to be busy but any way you could test a couple other driver versions? (I loaned my meter to someone). Specifically 398.11, which is apparently the last driver that is working fine for HDR passthrough (and conveniently the driver that brought improved 23p playback...I never could get any good timings with 385.28)

I'm already back to 385.28.

But it's easy to test even without a meter. I explained this before, don't know if you missed it. On the LG C8 the 20-point white balance adjustment points are different when the TV receives 1000 or 4000 nits metadata.

Just open madTPG and enable HDR. Go into your TVs 20 point white-balance settings and check the second last adjustment point. With 4000 nits metadata it should be 713. The number will change in real time when you switch between 1000 and 4000 nits in madTPG. If it doesn't show 713 when madTPG is set to 4000 it means the TV is getting the bogus metadata.

As for timings for 23p. On my 1050ti all I have to do in madVRs custom modes tool is pick EDID/CTA and change the pixel clock from 296.70 to 296.69 which gives me almost perfect 23.976 Hz. But of course that could be different on other GPUs.


@j82k
Thanks, that very helpfull, would you please install the latest test build (https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_154997361111013&key=0f4a86ba6db5fdb509f85ecacef1696f&libId=js1q8q3o0100s3dy000DA32954z7&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avsforum.com%2Fforum%2F24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp%2F2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-170.html&v=1&opt=true&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmadshi.net%2FmadVRhdrMeasure44.zip&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avsforum.com%2Fforum%2F24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp%2F&title=Improving%20Madvr%20HDR%20to%20SDR%20mapping%20for%20projector%20-%20Page%20170%20-%20AVS%20Forum%20%7C%20Home%20Theater%20Discussions%20And%20Reviews&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fmadshi.net%2FmadVRhdrMeasure44.zip) along with nvidia 418.81 drivers and take measurements with those settings:

tone map HDR using pixel shaders
output video in HDR format = enabled
target / real display peak nits = 800
apply dynamic clipping = enabled
apply target nits selection = disabled

Because it seems ok for me and almost matchs correct playback using my tv embedded media player.

:thanks:

I tried messing with madVRs tone mapping in passthrough and it didn't make a difference on the grayscale sweeps. I was still on madVRhdrMeasure43 though.
But I think displaying single colored squares isn't really a good way to test dynamic tone mapping.

[iSeries]

On the LG C8 the 20-point white balance adjustment points are different when the TV receives 1000 or 4000 nits metadata.

Just open madTPG and enable HDR. Go into your TVs 20 point white-balance settings and check the second last adjustment point. With 4000 nits metadata it should be 713. The number will change in real time when you switch between 1000 and 4000 nits in madTPG. If it doesn't show 713 when madTPG is set to 4000 it means the TV is getting the bogus metadata.

Thanks - just tested this with 416.81, and got 696 on the second last adjustment

EDIT - and tested 398.11 and it shows 713.

[actarusfleed]

There is no black bar detection with D3D11 native (or DXVA2 native). D3D11 copy-back or DXVA2 copy-back aren't fast enough on your system?.

I own an Rtx 2070 but I never seen D3D11 copy back option in lav decoder... Look at the attached picture....

Why?

On the other side I've tried dxva2 copy back but... With uhd 24fps films I've to lower ngu up scaling to "sharp low quality".
With uhd 60fps demo clip I forcely need to use d3d11 decoding to have no dropped frames.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190212/e6162b49c0a0a8d4047d8535d851d65f.jpg

[madjock]

Its actually right in front of you if you read the wording at the bottom.

As far as selecting scalers, I think a lot of the newer cards need to be FSE to get the most out of them.

[el Filou]

For people with NVIDIA & HDR who have a way to test what the TV is receiving (with diag dongle or light meter), did you try changing the "SDR brightness" slider in Windows Settings to see if that changed the bogus metadata being sent to the TV?
It may be a bug with Windows making everything go through the SDR-to-HDR convertor.

Edit: another test: try playing some HDR file with Windows' own Movies & TV app to see if the metadata being sent is different from when using madVR. If yes, then MS may have added some HDR API available from UWP apps but not from Win32?

[tp4tissue]

its actually right in front of you if you read the wording at the bottom.

As far as selecting scalers, i think a lot of the newer cards need to be fse to get the most out of them.

why fse ?

[tp4tissue]

No doubt, but what concerns me is if we/they mess to what they think it should look like, then are they actually seeing what it was meant to be. I am sure like me people read UHD reviews on Bluray.com and the amount that say the colours are this, or uptick in detail here, but how many people actually care what there TV is doing. We are actually buying Blurays or UHDs from reviews when its just a normal TV with no fancy third party application making it perfect ? if there is such a thing and looking at that forum, it is going round in circles with every new clever iteration.

madjock, if you don't care, why are you here ? why post at all ? why argue ? :(

[tp4tissue]

For people with NVIDIA & HDR who have a way to test what the TV is receiving (with diag dongle or light meter), did you try changing the "SDR brightness" slider in Windows Settings to see if that changed the bogus metadata being sent to the TV?
It may be a bug with Windows making everything go through the SDR-to-HDR convertor.

Edit: another test: try playing some HDR file with Windows' own Movies & TV app to see if the metadata being sent is different from when using madVR. If yes, then MS may have added some HDR API available from UWP apps but not from Win32?


I thought madshi said he wasn't developing for os-hdr.

[madjock]

madjock, if you don't care, why are you here ? why post at all ? why argue ? :(

Where does it say I don't care, this is not just about HDR, why 3 posts at once ? :D

[madjock]

why fse ?

Because 2070s drivers are quite new and it seems to have helped some.

[SamuriHL]

madshi's response in that nVidia thread is troubling. If there's no "windows api for hdr" that he can call to enable/disable hdr and nVidia removes their deprecated api that's going to leave us in quite a bind when it comes to new drivers. Awesome....sigh

[tp4tissue]

madshi's response in that nVidia thread is troubling. If there's no "windows api for hdr" that he can call to enable/disable hdr and nVidia removes their deprecated api that's going to leave us in quite a bind when it comes to new drivers. Awesome....sigh

Doesn't he also say nvapi is not going away ?

[iSeries]

Doesn't he also say nvapi is not going away ?

It may or may not be going away but it's definitely not working as we'd want it, really just looks like it merely hands HDR control over to Windows.

The good news is, 398.11 seems to work perfect. Custom res works great too. I haven't tested anything after this, but apparently this is the last driver that doesn't have this bogus metadata issue.

[nevcairiel]

madshi's response in that nVidia thread is troubling. If there's no "windows api for hdr" that he can call to enable/disable hdr and nVidia removes their deprecated api that's going to leave us in quite a bind when it comes to new drivers. Awesome....sigh

Even if the MS HDR API doesn't have a "toggle" function (I didn't check), informing windows about the wanted HDR metadata might still be quite reasonable.

[SamuriHL]

Even if the MS HDR API doesn't have a "toggle" function (I didn't check), informing windows about the wanted HDR metadata might still be quite reasonable.

That's a good point. Windows might internally decide "uh, hey, that looks like HDR maybe I should turn that on". Then again, it might just ignore it until the user enables it in the CP. One never knows with windows. The one thing we DO know about windows is that it's not likely to be consistent between versions. :D

[RXP]

Thanks j82k for doing the measurements. Feel much happier and more confident that I downgraded.

I used to be a pure dedicated media guy since 2008/09. Prior to the Popcorn Hour I was so frustrated in using a HTPC for media playback. But MadVR's tempted me back into the HTPC game again. And this reminds me why I went to a dedicated player - it's a minefield of compatibility issues. I downgraded to the correct drivers for HDR passthrough but that broke CUDA playback as I was getting macro blocking. Eventually figured out I had to switch to DXVA Copy back but in the middle of a movie which I was looking forward to and never ended up finishing. Instead I shouted at the computer haha. On the positives I fixed the HDR tone mapping on the OLED, got Rec2020 output in SDR for my RS49 though.

I'm planning on creating a "production/live" system which I will use as a dedicated HTPC. I won't apply any software/driver updates to avoid this situation happening again. But I'm sure Win 10 will get very upset and try and install updates behind my back.

[madjock]

I'm planning on creating a "production/live" system which I will use as a dedicated HTPC. I won't apply any software/driver updates to avoid this situation happening again. But I'm sure Win 10 will get very upset and try and install updates behind my back.

I know what you mean. I think the part I struggle with, is that things can just change with nothing having been altered to change it. I had my Qs rock steady during testing of files by reducing them for 4K content. Watched a file last night and I had over 28 Presentation issues and it sort of ruined the film as I could see the flashes.

This latest HDR metadata issue has also freaked me out as it was not really mentioned when everyone talks about the latest driver still allows passthrough etc, but it has obviously raised its head again and has been broken for months, you then find out your life has been a lie for all this time.

[tp4tissue]

it has obviously raised its head again and has been broken for months, you then find out your life has been a lie for all this time.

This is exactly how I feel. :scared:

Recalibration also takes forever..

Wish there was a faster probe than i1displaypro that I can afford.

[chros]

I'm planning on creating a "production/live" system which I will use as a dedicated HTPC. I won't apply any software/driver updates to avoid this situation happening again. But I'm sure Win 10 will get very upset and try and install updates behind my back.
You can block them from Win10 Pro and upwards (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/2364113-guide-building-4k-htpc-madvr-62.html#post57437440).

[madjock]

You can block them from Win10 Pro and upwards (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/2364113-guide-building-4k-htpc-madvr-62.html#post57437440).

I thought I would give 8.1 a go the other day, as it is recommended by madshi and others as a more stable OS. By god did I have problems, a lot were due to having a dummy 2nd display due to using the DP port for audio to my AVR.

Simple things like Text looking terrible and general DPI issues made me rethink in no time and back to Windows 10, for all of W10 faults sometimes when you do go and revisit an OS, you remember that it was not as good as you remember especially with advances in 4K displays and the like.

[RXP]

This latest HDR metadata issue has also freaked me out as it was not really mentioned when everyone talks about the latest driver still allows passthrough etc, but it has obviously raised its head again and has been broken for months, you then find out your life has been a lie for all this time.

I think it shows that we don't really notice the minutia of detail. When you're engrossed in a film it won't matter if the highlights aren't recovered etc. I find it's almost like a Placebo kick for me. To know it's the best possible solution.

On a projector though it's a huge difference ofc.

I successfully watched a movie just now, looked amazing and very happy MadVR works. Now do I try and tweak the dropping frames every 4.73mins or do I just leave alone before I break something else:D:D